Illegal downloads/file sharing

AuthorTopic
Brandon Iron
BrandonIron.com


4716 Posts
3/02
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 04:50:00 AM
I am way over my head on this one. That's why I am posting this. I hope some ADT posters can advise what can be done when a movie is placed on a site for file-sharing. I found this on the web and it appears to be a blatant example of ripping off a studio. Of course I am especially concerned because it's my movie, but it could very well be a Red Light/Evil Angel/Zero Tolerance movie next time. Can someone please check this out and let me know if this type of file sharing is legal? I could be wrong... http://www.filenexus.com/index.php?page=view_release&release_id=2427 THANKS! Brandon Iron www.platinumxpictures.com e-mail: brandoniron_99@yahoo.com
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Recondite
Member

United States of Debauchery
119 Posts
11/03
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 04:56:00 AM
Its absolutely illegal, that's for sure. That's the thing about decentralized (I think) peer to peer file sharing networks like kazaa and e-donkey... I think e-donkey was based on the gnutella source code. The best bet would be to consult a lawyer (don't most pornstars already have lawyers?), but your options are probably not that many realistically. You could go the route of the RIAA and try to sue them to stop sharing that movie, but that might be costly.

I'm with you all the way, piracy is affecting all forms of entertainment, but it seems like it would hurt porn the worst, since the profit margins are usually much thinner.

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Chico Wang
Senior Member

1145 Posts
1/04
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 05:01:00 AM


Brandon Iron wrote:
... it could very well be a Red Light/Evil Angel/Zero Tolerance movie next time ...

Brandon, I scanned around the site just for kicks and it very well is alot of companies as exemplified by This Link Here

Looks like the server points to the Netherlands. Doesn't look like my computer allow me to buy. I particularly can't imagine going after this company unless they have a reputable credit card processor. I'll put the Minion on this and see if he'll crack it.

Chico

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Brandon Iron
BrandonIron.com

4716 Posts
3/02
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 05:10:00 AM
Thanks, Chico.
Believe me, this is not an issue of greed. It's simply a survival issue. My life savings are riding on Platinum X Pictures. It scares me to see over 1,000 downloads of A GOOD SOURCE OF IRON.
From Chico's link, at least PXP is in good company. Heads up to Evil Angel, Fusion, Devil's, etc.
I know the Minion is going to get laid by Britney Madison soon. If he can help out with this situation, I will get her to marry him!
No worries. There are more honest perverts out there than dishonest....right??
Brandon
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Rob Longshot
Member

253 Posts
2/04
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 05:14:00 AM
the reason you cannot download it is they are using BitTorrent. its a file sharing program where people download "seeds" of a file that then let them download it from other users like a P2P style file sharing. it was mostly used by Anime fans to share Digisubs of shows not released in the US but now is being used for many other types of file sharing. it is very difficult to prosecute, but much applause if you can succeed.
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Linus TR fan
Member

867 Posts
11/03
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 05:22:00 AM
Wow, if those download numbers are correct, it would really seem like a big cut out of your potential profit. That is a real shame. In my opinion, there needs to be much strongr laws and easier ways of dealing with thieving bastards like those people.

I'm behind you all the way Brandon and Chico. I an honest pervert all the way. Bought A good source of iron, and about a third of the movies on that list, the legal way so you both profit from it. Good luck.

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timotei
Member

UK
340 Posts
4/02
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 05:27:00 AM
Brandon,

On file-sharing networks like eDonkey and via Bittorrent, pretty much most titles from the big studios are being downloaded. So PXP are certainly not alone in being ripped off. Not that that's much consolation to you.

From a technical standpoint, I would say the brutal truth is that there isn't really very much that can be done. The music and software industries were the first to have to deal with this, and now the film industry is next in line. Pressure on downloader's ISPs is probably all that can be done that will really have any effect. But that will just result in an arms race to build newer file-sharing networks that hide people's tracks.

As you mention, you just have to rely on there being enough fans who are honest and buy your products, to outweigh the potential losses from piracy.

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Brandon Iron
BrandonIron.com

4716 Posts
3/02
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 05:37:00 AM
I went through the 7 pages of adult movies that are listed on this file-sharing site. Product from the following producers/companies can be found there:

Jules Jordan
Mike John
Digital Sin
JM Productions
Jill Kelly Productions
Joey Silvera
Anabolic
Diabolic
Zero Tolerance
Extreme Associates
Le Wood Productions
Private
Digital Playground
Christoph Clark
Jenna Jameson
DVSX
Platinum X Pictures
Sineplex
John Stagliano
Erik Everhard
Smash Pictures
Rosebud
John Leslie
Metro
West Coast Productions
Multimedia Pictures
Evasive Angles
Hustler
New Sensations
Legend
VCA

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Rob Longshot
Member

253 Posts
2/04
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 05:45:00 AM
jesus... but im not surprised. it reallly is a shame that in todays society people can use their computer to justify theft. downloading a few songs is one thing, downloading full length movies, that is another. the unfortuante thing is there really isnt a lot you can do about it... even the encryption codes get hacked rather quickly.
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Sbando Boy
Euro Babe Magnet

2452 Posts
6/01
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 06:17:00 AM
The fact, or the trick, is that those people (Filenexus, Sharereactor) don't host any file nor allow people to exchange stuff though a central server (Napster).
They're just INDEXING eDonkey and BTT links.
So, there's nothing to do, in that sense. Their hosts know about their activities and they don't seem to have problems with that. Sharereactor's servers are in Switzerland and in that country they're legally free to do that.

ANYWAY... It has happened before (Sharereactor had to remove their music section after a menacing letter from Sony). My advice would be to write them a courteous but VERY FIRM e-letter, not too aggressive but FIRM, when you at least ask not to use stuff from your site (pictures, covers, text, bandwidth), which is ALWAYS illegal. And you can promise them "further legal action". Users that downloads was files are EASY TRACKABLE, especially with Bittorrent. Tell them that.
And that you're going to persecute single users (even if you're not planning to, but it would be fairly easy).
It has always worked in the past.

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Abunai
Member

14 Posts
2/04
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 06:47:00 AM
Actually from my understanding of the U.S. law. Downloading is pretty much legal (since you can claim that you didn't know said file was copyright protected) it's the user who uploads or makes the copyright protected file available who gets in trouble.

As it was said before I think the best way right now is to ensure that your legal customers outweigh those who rather get it for free.

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Sbando Boy
Euro Babe Magnet

2452 Posts
6/01
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 07:02:00 AM
No, downloading is not legal. It's fairly easy to track your ip number on eMule, you don't need to be a sys admin or a programmer. Everyone can do that, adding the user to your "friends".
With an ip number, in every country, you can persecute the users, ie: asking their Aprovider to cut the service if the infringing files are not removed.
Something can be done, without legal or network skills.
Otherwise, it's just a generic whining that always leads to watermarks, higher prices for dvds/cds and stuff like that.
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licker
Senior Member

Heretic, Iconoclast, Skeptic
5773 Posts
8/03
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 08:05:00 AM
Hello Brandon

I am not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure it is not legal.

The bad news - there is no effective technical or legal deterrent against peer to peer file sharing. The majority of users are teenage boys who are

(a) remarkably tech savvy
(b) unable to afford to buy the product legally anyway
(c) completely devoid of any assets, and thus unafraid of bankruptcy or lawsuits.
(d) not easy to trace. Technically elaborate "entrapment" operations are needed.

Software already exists to allow these lads to use military grade encryption, and anonymous addressing to share files if the existing methods become too dangerous for them. They know that these options are available, and how to use them.

The good news is that statistics are on your side. When file sharing of music CD's was at its maximum a year or so back, legal CD sales were higher than they had ever been in history. Since the RIAA clamped down on illegal sharing by closing down Napster, legal CD sales have fallen dramatically.

Cases are known of printed books, which having exhausted all sales and reached the "bargain bin" stage, were released for free download on the internet by their authors. They experienced a huge increase of in-store sales of the original printed book as soon as the internet release took place.

I have never seen a good explanation of why this happens, but I suspect a "free advertising" effect may be coming into play.

My feeling is that you will not lose large numbers of your regular customers this way. I have bought movies from studios that sell their own product as internet downloads. The process is slow and awkward, and the quality of the end result is not as good or as convenient as having a DVD.

Adult DVDs are sold at fair and reasonable prices that most of us are quite willing to pay. I have bought ten in the past month alone. I don't see that the market pressure is there to drive most of your customers into illegal file sharing.

Sbando Boy's advice about writing a letter to the index site is probably good. You may get them to take down the index link. Unfortunately, the people at that site are not the ones who have your movie. It is most likely spread around on the computers of those thousand teenagers, waiting to be shared with others.

The music industry is tackling this problem by selling individual songs from CDs on the internet at $1 per track. As far as I know this has been a huge success for the studios.

The equivalent of this for the adult industry might be for the studios to sell individual scenes from their DVDs online at say, $5 per scene. Unfortunately, you are prohibited by age restrictions from selling into the market that probably is doing the majority of illegal trading of your product.

I'm sorry if this answer is not entirely what you wanted to hear. My opinions are formed from my experience working 25 years as a software developer, and from following the debates on this subject in IT industry forums.

I hope there will always be enough of us genuine fans out here to keep your business profitable. This sort of file sharing has been happening for a few years now, but we are still buying!

Best of luck
licker

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Brandon Iron
BrandonIron.com

4716 Posts
3/02
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 08:46:00 AM
Thanks to everyone for the feedback. Like I said, money is not the primary issue. It's survival. I earn each and every dollar that goes into my productions. So does every other director at Platinum X Pictures. This is the biggest risk I have ever taken in my life, and the optimist in me would like to believe that a lot of hard work will pay off in the long run.
The marketplace has changed over the past decade. Competition is tougher. Prices have fallen. There are lots of good studios with access to talent in different countries. We are all making more movies with the same talent pool. It becomes more about sales and distribution than anything else.
Platinum X Pictures registers its movies with the Library of Congress in order to protect the copyrights. What use is this when peer-to-peer file sharing gives anyone anywhere free access to a movie in which I have up to $30,000 invested (production and post-production included)?
Don't get me wrong. I love what I do and would rather do this than ANYTHING else. I just hope I can afford to keep doing productions for many years.
Thanks.
Brandon
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DynamicDynamite
Senior Member

1025 Posts
4/03
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 09:10:00 AM


Brandon Iron wrote:
Thanks to everyone for the feedback. Like I said, money is not the primary issue. It's survival. I earn each and every dollar that goes into my productions. So does every other director at Platinum X Pictures. This is the biggest risk I have ever taken in my life, and the optimist in me would like to believe that a lot of hard work will pay off in the long run.
The marketplace has changed over the past decade. Competition is tougher. Prices have fallen. There are lots of good studios with access to talent in different countries. We are all making more movies with the same talent pool. It becomes more about sales and distribution than anything else.
Platinum X Pictures registers its movies with the Library of Congress in order to protect the copyrights. What use is this when peer-to-peer file sharing gives anyone anywhere free access to a movie in which I have up to $30,000 invested (production and post-production included)?
Don't get me wrong. I love what I do and would rather do this than ANYTHING else. I just hope I can afford to keep doing productions for many years.
Thanks.
Brandon


Good luck with this battle Brandon. There are several people that continue to do this peer to peer thing, and while there are the few that do it to then go out and buy the movie there are thousands that would just as soon download and rip off a company such as Platinum X, or any of the other companies that you named throughout your one post. I hope you all can nail these people to the wall; because like you said it is a battle of survival in your industry, and if one company gets ripped(or in this case now several) then who knows what is next..

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Ultrasiet
Member

Maya Gold, will you marry me?
259 Posts
11/03
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 09:34:00 AM
Just a thought Brandon - you didn't put the pirated copy of A GOOD SOURCE OF IRON on the web, but what if you did? Let me illustrate what I mean by an example. At the height of Napster's popularity, I just found out about it and yes, I admit, I downloaded a few songs, but one thing I found was you'd download say a Barenaked Ladies song like 'One Week' and you'd end up with Michael Penn's 'Someone to Dance With' because someone had simply renamed the Penn song as a BNL song. In other instances, I'd download a song which said 'Mariah Carey - Without You' only to find out it was some dude singing the song to a karoake soundtrack.

Now, if piracy is hurting you, you feel, then put your own dodgy pirated product out there. Just film yourself saying 'You have downloaded a Platinum X home-made pirated product masquerading as A GOOD SOURCE OF IRON 2. Thank you for downloading all 800MB of this false pirated product. I'm going to lecture you on why illegal downloading is bad and how we intend to prosecute anyone stealing our product.' (Then just tell them and get up and leave the camera shooting the sofa till you have the running time of the actual film.) Or shoot your sofa again for the running time, and release this anonymously on the web as 'The real A GOOD SOURCE OF IRON 2.' Or show five minutes of the real film, then switch to you cutting your toenails, or something. The point is to put out your own badly cut product, so that it lets everyone know that Platinum X pirated versions on the web are crap and if you want to stroke to illegally free stuff, this aint what you want. It's like cops putting out heavily-cut coke onto the streets in order to deter users and put the dealers under pressure. It doesn't solve the problem, but it causes enough mayhem to make life difficult for 'dealers' and 'users'.

It's not foolproof, I'm sure people will have software which will tell them whether they're pirate-downloading the real product, but this sort of filling the black market with crap pisses a lot of people off. It was one of the reasons I stopped using Napster back in 2000 - I mean, if it looks like you're going to get shit product, why waste time downloading it? Even teenage boys with broadband would get tired of using their bandwith to download something other than what they want - if they see a downloaded Platinum X film on the web, they could well say 'why download that, they don't give me the quick fix I want, I'll download something else.' Not all of them will think this, but it could act as a deterrent to a lot of them, and would certainly confuse a lot of users, and for not really a lot of effort involved, certainly easier and cheaper than getting lawyers to chase them.

Just a thought, maybe an impractical one, but a thought nonetheless.

Just so you know, I shell out my hard-earned bucks for your DVD's, most recently INTENSITIES IN 10 CITIES.

Edited by - Ultrasiet on 2/15/2004 9:43:17 AM

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Saki
Moderator-At-Large

3264 Posts
11/99
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 10:11:00 AM
Some older threads on the topics of piracy and studio responses:

DVD Piracy (Hustler/RDL/EA/JulesJordanVideo)
Jules Jordan DVD/Internet piracy issue...
This just in from Jules...
Jules Jordan Video Files Lawsuit
Piracy report

- Saki [faqs]

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Renee
Senior Member

1247 Posts
8/03
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 12:17:00 PM
Guys, the US Senate is ahead of you all. The Senate Judiciary Committee held a hearing back on Sept. 9, 2003, on the subject of porn and peer-to-peer networks. The main topic was child porn being shared, but there was also some discussion about adult porn being traded by minors on the networks.

The committee requested a Mr. Alan Morris from the Sharman company to testify; his company provides software to Kazaa. In his witness statement:
http://www.senate.gov/~judiciary/testimony.cfm?id=902&wit_id=2277

he basically said that they can't police what people do with the software and networks, it's a technological tool that people use to find porn, just like people use Google to find porn sites. What I remember from watching the hearing was that Senator Leahy grilled this guy, and had him squirming in his seat more than once.

There was also testimony from a copyright law expert:
http://judiciary.senate.gov/testimony.cfm?id=902&wit_id=2560

She said that it is illegal to share copywrited material, no matter what technology is used to do it.

If you go to the Judiciary Committee website, and do a search on their hearings page for "peer-to-peer", you'll find more witness statements.

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Anteros
Member

122 Posts
4/03
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 12:35:00 PM
I have a few friends that use these tools to download movies and music and whatever else. They use it as a sampling tool I'd say. They download the movie or CD and check it out, if they like it they buy it. If they dont like it no money wasted. Eventually everything they download gets deleted cause alot of these things are over a gig each. I would guess that if all p2p programs just shut down sales wouldnt rise that much. Its either people who cant afford them (or arent allowed to buy them) or people that buy them anyway mostly.

Just my opinion based on the people Ive talked to that use these programs. I could be way off base as far as the majority goes.

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Diceman
Member

466 Posts
10/03
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 01:00:00 PM


Ultrasiet wrote:

Now, if piracy is hurting you, you feel, then put your own dodgy pirated product out there. Just film yourself saying 'You have downloaded a Platinum X home-made pirated product masquerading as A GOOD SOURCE OF IRON 2. Thank you for downloading all 800MB of this false pirated product. I'm going to lecture you on why illegal downloading is bad and how we intend to prosecute anyone stealing our product...


I agree that this is probably the best strategy. Additionally, you could take it up a notch by adding an encoded URL (in a WMV file, I believe) that points to a page on your website which displays the user's IP and all other information that can be gained (Browser version, OS Type, etc). Adding some sort of frightening message about logging their IP would most likely scare the shit out of most users and make them think twice about downloading porn from RLD or PXP again.


Taylor Lynn Yahoo Group

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bigpussy
Member

345 Posts
9/03
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 01:27:00 PM
I say you guys are losing sleep needlessly. Obviously you're losing some revenues but I bet over the internet-era you've seen an exponential growth in the market.

Here's my point: the internet has caused an explosion of outlets to sell your products and created new avenues for new revenue streams. On the downside there are growing ways of "stealing" the products.

The benefit from the new technology far outway the downside. Until the technology to protect your product comes out of the courtroom to catch up with reality it will cut into your profits, but hardly end them and put you out of business.

One other thought - I think the filesharing paradigm offers opportunities of convenience that consumers have embraced and will continue to demand. If music and video producers accept this fact and stop fighting it, maybe the energy will be re-directed in making it work for consumers, artist and producers.

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Germanicus
Member

Berkshire, U.K.
80 Posts
2/04
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 02:31:00 PM
I paid for my d/l movie.

I downloaded Weapons of ass destruction from VIDX and opted for the 14 dollar permanent keeping fee.
Now if it hadn't taken 4 hours I might consider d/l as an alternative to rental.
I decided that WOAD wasn't my cup of tea and didn't like the fact that I couldn't select chapters or set bookmarks.

I still think DVDs are superior because they can hold megabytes of data and not take up space on my hard drive.

Spam the freeloaders.

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Sir Noel Plum
Senior Studmuffin

2949 Posts
2/03
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 03:33:00 PM


Ultrasiet wrote:

Now, if piracy is hurting you, you feel, then put your own dodgy pirated product out there. Just film yourself saying 'You have downloaded a Platinum X home-made pirated product masquerading as A GOOD SOURCE OF IRON 2. Thank you for downloading all 800MB of this false pirated product. I'm going to lecture you on why illegal downloading is bad and how we intend to prosecute anyone stealing our product...


I'm going to disagree and suggest this is the worst of strategies. Whilst there are those who will dload your film who lie outside your potential market (ie will never buy) you might be able to piss them off but that hasn't really gained you anything (just hogged up your own upload capacity distributing the bogus film) and those that are potential customers will likely be irked by such a sanctimonious lecture.

Realistically speaking piracy of software, music and film is at such a level now that it is very hard to find anyone who hasn't copied a cd or 'borrowed' a piece of software from a friend. I went to the cinema last night and before the film I was faced with this 3 minute trailer telling us all how anyone with a pirated copy of a film was guilty of an array of things from destroying the industry to sponsoring terrorism (seriously). The advert was by an industry body called FACT (Federation Against Copyright Theft) and all I could think about was what the chances are that the FACT boss himself has, at the very least, an album taped off a friend or a few mp3s on his pc. My point is that when you start accusing people who have the odd copy of a film or cd of sponsoring terrorism, just as when the police start labelling those who drive 3 or 4 miles an hour over the speed limit as potential murderers, you start alienating basically decent people who, like most of us, just find it too hard to turn down a free lunch when it is laid out in front of us.

So what do I think you should do? Well, to tell you the truth I don't really know. What I do know is that for those who can buy, most would still prefer the genuine article with a genuine cover on a genuine pressed dvd with better picture quality and all the extras than a poxy avi file with the filename penned onto a blank cd. This probably explains why despite being told the software, music and film industry are all about to fall apart under a weight of piracy for the last twenty years they all seem to have done remarkably well for themselves. I think you need to accept the facts that those 1000 downloads don't correspond to 1000 lost sales that can be magically recaptured if only the piracy would stop; that some fella who dloads a hundred pornos a day isn't suddenly going to magic up 1000's of spare dollars and buy all those titles, instead he will just do without because he probably didn't want the film enough to actually buy it, he simply downloads it because it is there and because he can.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning any of it and if you really had the means to stop all of this then no one could blame you for using it. All I'm suggesting is that it probably wouldn't make any difference to your sales figures. Stick with making good product as you do Brandon and you will always sell dvds just as Tag Heuer and Rolex continue to sell just as many good watches however good the fakes get.

Now if you want to see your sales go up (and internet piracy go down) what you really need to stop is renting, but that, as they say, is another story.

SNP.

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Ramsey
Senior Member

The Best There Is, The Best There Was, The Best There Ever Will Be!
17874 Posts
10/02
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 03:35:00 PM
Warning: when opening the filenexus.com link it installs Gator spyware on your computer. I just did a check with Spybot and found it.
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licker
Senior Member

Heretic, Iconoclast, Skeptic
5773 Posts
8/03
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 04:06:00 PM


Among many good points, Sir Noel Plum wrote:

I'm going to disagree and suggest this is the worst of strategies.


I agree, perhaps for another reason. Bad product circulating with your studio's name on it could hurt your reputation among genuine buyers. That is the last thing you want.

Whatever action you take on this, please consider "is this going to piss off my real customers". Your reputation is one of your biggest assets.

Just as an example, technology exists to corrupt a music CD so it will not play on a computer. Some companies do this in the hope that it will prevent music sharing. When a real customer shells out thirty bucks for a "CD" that won't play when they get it home, you can hear the scream of rage a mile away.

Software tools called "digital rights management" are beginning to be used by some companies. In my opinion, these will do absolutely nothing to prevent file sharing, but will make life awkward for millions of paying customers. These people will vote with their wallets.

The technical reality is, "if it can be watched, it can be copied.", so beware of anyone trying to sell you a technical solution.

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Ramsey
Senior Member

The Best There Is, The Best There Was, The Best There Ever Will Be!
17874 Posts
10/02
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 04:14:00 PM
I personally think there would be less piracy if the prices of DVD's would get cheaper. Paying $25 - $20 is IMO way too much. I think it should be around $15 - $10.
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Sir Noel Plum
Senior Studmuffin

2949 Posts
2/03
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 04:30:00 PM


licker wrote:
Just as an example, technology exists to corrupt a music CD so it will not play on a computer. Some companies do this in the hope that it will prevent music sharing. When a real customer shells out thirty bucks for a "CD" that won't play when they get it home, you can hear the scream of rage a mile away.


You think that's bad, well get a load of these two cases that were discussed in Edge magazine (video games) this month:

Ubisoft have just released a patch for the game Rainbow Six 3: Raven Shield that takes a look at all the programs you have on your hard disk before it runs. If the software find a program it doesn't like (such as some cd copying software) or that you use a virtual drive it refuses to install.

Codemasters have a new technology they call FADE. The technology is an anti-piracymeasure that works in a very clever subtle way. Rather than stopping you copying the software the FADE technology is incorporated into the game and subtly alters it so that the longer you play a pirated copy the more erratic and harder the game becomes until after many hours the game becomes unplayable. The beauty of the system is that the potential pirate is unlikely to know whether they have successfully circumvented the software without playing it for hours and hours to check. The big problem though is that the genuine customer is always going to have lingering doubts as to whether their failure to, say, complete the mission on level 6 is through lack of skill or because the FADE software has erroneously kicked in perceiving their copy to be pirated. I can imagine you would quickly become quite paranoid about whether your copy was working as it should. The likely end result, once the inevitable happens and the pirates defeat the FADE system, is that even the most respectable of buyers will shy away from using the original as the only way to be totally sure your game won't FADE into instability and unplayability is to download a pirated version!

SNP.

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Vroomfondel
Member

76 Posts
8/01
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 04:50:00 PM
You also need to factor in the time and resouces used and consider how much bang you're getting for the buck. The RIAA/MPAA have spent billions on this problem and have gotten exactly nowhere. They've gotten a couple of well-publicized victories, but those are band-aids on bullet-wounds. Their treats, intimidation, arrests of 12-year-olds, bought senators and constant spin-doctoring has not done a single thing to prevent file-trading. Every album hits the net the day it hits the stores and every mainstream movie is available within days of release to the theaters and in many cases, WEEKS EARLIER.

You can follow their lead and start chasing people, but you really need to take a deep breath and ask yourself if that's going to get you anywhere. The bottom line is what counts and spending a million to recoup $100,000 in lost sales is a sure path to disaster. You can't look at downloads as lost sales, they're not! The majority of porn downloads come from people that are not even old enough to buy porn on their own or who do not have the disposable income to buy. Take away the ages 13-17 that can't legally buy and the age 18-21 starving college kids living on ramen noodles because they can't afford real food. Want to bet that at least 90% of porn downloading disappears? Bootleg DVDs are a different matter, that's a lost sale, but to make the leap of logic that 1,000 downloads = 1,000 lost sales is not even close to being accurate.

The reality of the situation for the porn industry, the RIAA, MPAA, book publishers, software developers and anyone else that distributes copyrighted material than be transferred digitally is that the genie is out of the bottle. It's not going back in and when it comes to protecting the material, the pirates who want to take it are FAR more clever than those working on ways to make it copyproof. If there was a solution to the problem, the deep pockets of the RIAA/MPAA would have stumbled across it by now. They have not and their resources are essentially unlimited while those of the porn industry are not.

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Ultrasiet
Member

Maya Gold, will you marry me?
259 Posts
11/03
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 06:50:00 PM


Sir Noel Plum wrote:
I'm going to disagree and suggest this is the worst of strategies. Whilst there are those who will dload your film who lie outside your potential market (ie will never buy) you might be able to piss them off but that hasn't really gained you anything (just hogged up your own upload capacity distributing the bogus film) and those that are potential customers will likely be irked by such a sanctimonious lecture.

Yeah, I see that, and I see licker's point, but let's say you ditch the lecture and just show Brandon clipping his toenails. Or better yet, use it as an advertising opportunity - show little bits of various movies packaged together in montages. Those potential customers, as opposed to genuine freeloaders, would not be irked by a montage so much, and if they're genuine 'potential customers' this could spur them into buying another PXP product. I cannot see how genuine potential customers would be too irked by a montage being downloaded when they were expecting a film, especially if they were not aware that PXP distributed the not-quite-right pirated copy available on the net. This may still be a bad idea, and the clogging-up-of-upload space is probably a big deterrent, but I don't know that if done properly it's the worst of ideas.

Licker's theory that word that your product is bad not being good for your company - well, if it's a doctored copy on the net, surely downloaders will be bright enough to tell that the DVD version is actually better quality?

Anyway, a better idea would be to do what those music artists who, at least at face, support file-sharing, which is rely on the files to support the 'live show'. In porn this aint so easy, but with mobile and upbeat stars like Selena Silver, who like to interact with her fans, it helps move her films. With ebooks around, why are people still buying novels? Sure convenience is a big factor, but people like the artefact. Maybe PXP should look into more signed copies of films, or some sort of Free Gifts Rewards Program if you provide the unique number on the top of each DVD, something reasonably inexpensive to go with each film which could prove invaluable to a fanboy. Perhaps even a genuine subscription service, where you pay up front for two PXP releases every month plus other cool stuff. Get porn stars going international (where they can) to promote. Do what you can afford to plug your product.

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Cyberchicken
Senior Member

1475 Posts
4/02
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 07:23:00 PM
I can't imagine how much this sucks Brandon, but don't lose sleep over what can't be stopped. It's hard for me to feel sorry for the music industry, but I completely understand that the situation is different with you.

Take comfort in the fact that many of the people down loading your movie from that site probably aren't old enough to buy it legally anyway.

I think as a show of support, everyone reading this thread should buy a copy of A Good Source Of Iron #2.

CC

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cubesnake
Senior Member

3397 Posts
10/02
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 10:20:00 PM
Hi,

A lot of what has been said here is the truth. But there is more. There is too much of everything and people tent do (sometimes) collect about everything just not to "miss" something. On the other hand they don´t have the time to watch everything they collected. Even guys like me who buy dvds almost on a "subscription" basis don´t get to watch what they buy. Like i mentioned in another thread i already don´t know who much (of my legally bought) dvds i haven´t seen yet. Same applies to stuff one gets of the net i would presume. Then again ... P2P can work as a try b4 buy thing.
Or if you are in a country that leaves you no other choice thanks to your friendly Mr. customs Fuck who always enjoys your porn instead of you who ordered it.

just my 2 cents

Cube

Edited by - cubesnake on 2/15/2004 10:20:15 PM

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scipio
Senior Member

3265 Posts
2/00
Posted - Feb 15 2004 : 11:40:00 PM
There've been a lot of good points made on this thread, and so I'll add some thoughts of my own, and no doubt go off on a huge tangent.

I like most people here have downloaded music through napster etc and like many of the posters here again, have ended up frisbeeing some of those CDs, some never ever get listened to and those ones that I really enjoyed have been bought legitimately. (ie: several Foo Fighters, blink 182, Eminem, plenty more)

I can also say the same about games software, where there have been several games I could not get here in Australia due to us being on the arse end of release schedules, but have bought when they were released (ie: GTA Vice City) or games I got as warez and then decided to buy a legit copy later on anyway (ie: Sid Meiers Simgolf, Soul Calibur 2)

I won't lie, there of course have been some games/music I got copied and have not bought, but most of those have been crap and not worth playing, so the copied software really means nothing in the end. Then again there's also been an awful lot of software I've bought that's turned out to be a huge disappointment/crap and I've simply been out a bunch of real $$ (ie: RAW 2 for XBox).

In my opinion then, a lot of P2P software sharing (including your movies) isn't really much to worry about. I had a friend who had literally over a thousand games for the first Playstation, 99% of them copies. The thing is, would he have bought them at retail? And how many did he actually play? I'd say not many at all on both counts. He (and a lot of these end-user type of people) seem to "collect" more than use. There was an emulator program that allowed I think it was Super Nintendo games to be played on the Dreamcast. I saw it on the web one day and mentioned it to him, and his reply was that he already had it and a truckload of games. Never mind that he already had a perfectly good Super Nintendo and some contraption that hooked up a CD-Rom to it (with those same million games), the fact that he could EMULATE them on a different machine was what got him excited.

For some of these people at least, the collecting is more important then the end use, and the software gets used perhaps once, then never again. The fact that they can download A Good Source of Iron 2 and burn it to a VCD is more important to them than actually watching them, and I'm sure people like my friend that download porn titles have 1000 burnt VCDs of which they might only actually watch a few.

So while it does suck in many ways Brandon, don't be too concerned that 1000 downloads = 1000 lost sales since I would assume that almost all of those who bother to doanload the movie files were not likely to buy it anyway.


SNP - thanks for the heads-up mate, I haven't read EDGE in years, but I'll keep an eye out on anything released by UBISoft from now on..

What I have installed on my PC is my own business, just like I refuse to buy any copy-protected CDs since I MP3 everything for my portable player.


Aside from the rental issue, I've seen a lot of pirated DVDs (Evil Angel, RLD, PXP, ZT, Andrew Blake, Peter North stuff, Virtual Sex with.., My Plaything.., Simon Wolf, and quite a few that dont jump to mind) on shelves here (Melb, Australia) in the last 6 months which I imagine is a more direct problem than P2P downloads, since someone buying a pirated copy off the shelf is probably more likely to buy a legit copy if able than your average file leech. The other issue with the pirated versions is that the average schmoe might not realise they're pirated and think they're buying a legit product if they don't know what to look for (I know what to look for). I spoke to Tricia about this once briefly, but it's far worse these days. If you (or anyone from the above companies) want more information let me know an email address to contact you and I'll give you what little help I can (titles, store names and phone numbers)..

cheers,

scipio

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Sbando Boy
Euro Babe Magnet

2452 Posts
6/01
Posted - Feb 16 2004 : 05:10:00 AM
The simple advice that I gave worked in a few cases and led to some positive changes.
Otherwise, it's only a big debate on what's the sound of one hand clapping.
On eDonkey/Bittorent/WinMX sites I see people hotlinking covers scans directly from the companies' sites. At least they could prevent that.
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Cyberchicken
Senior Member

1475 Posts
4/02
Posted - Feb 16 2004 : 07:52:00 AM
Ever since vcrs became a standard household item, porn hounds have been hooking two of them together, so they could make copies, but at least they were renting the movie first, so some money was entering the industry. Now with P2P, the industry isn't even getting that money, because all it takes is one person to buy the movie, and thousands get a copy for free.

The only thing working in favor of the adult industry is that most US homes still do not have broadband.

There is only one solution to this problem. Downloading movies directly from a studio (for a fee) must become easier and quicker to do than ripping them off the net.

That way people can choose convenience over bootlegging.

As for me, I'm going to support the directors I like, either through rental or purchase. To me, this is simple common sense, otherwise the good porn will dry up.

PS: SNP, who is that girl in your Avatar? Have a full sized picture you can post?

CC

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*Mutt*
Deactivated User

834 Posts
8/03
Posted - Feb 16 2004 : 08:16:00 AM

True broadband won't help either, it will just make file trading faster and more popular on movies.

only hope is Hollywood wages a successful war on it and the porn industry gets the benefit of mainstream's victory. At some point Congress will have to get involved, we're not far away from being able to download pristine digial copies of Hollywood blockbuster and playing them on set top DVD players projected onto a wall sized screen. There will be nothing available to the entertainment biz to fight it - only Congress enacting laws that are so tough on copyright theft that it scares people off. I don't even think that's going to work, u can't throw a million citizens in jail for 10 years for stealing a movie.

So Hollywood and the porn biz will shrink - there are honest people out there who would prefer to pay for a product. That will be the market. This is already playing out on the Internet with paysites, it's gotten tougher and tougher to get people to sign up and stay members - and i'm not just talking about shitty paysites that don't deserve any members - even quality paysites are hurting compared to a few years ago. Why would somebody joing a paysite when they become a member of AdultBouncer and DeluxePass and get literally thousands of videos in any genre he likes or get Bit-Torrent or WinMx and get them absolutely free? Not to mention the thousands of TGP and MGP sites which offer all the free porn a horny guy could ever want.

Market is going to be smaller, limited to honest people who are looking for specific content that interests them.

nobody cares tho really. what if technology made it that we could make copies of automobiles with a few clicks of a mouse? or food even? nobody would pay for them either.

this is a big problem and one that doesn't have a solution.


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Cyberchicken
Senior Member

1475 Posts
4/02
Posted - Feb 16 2004 : 08:33:00 AM


*Mutt* wrote:

True broadband won't help either, it will just make file trading faster and more popular on movies.


Yeah, I know. That was my point.

CC

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cobalt60
Knuckle Dragger

9544 Posts
2/03
Posted - Feb 16 2004 : 10:06:00 AM
Two cents: beat them at their own game by offering high-quality, digitally signed, password-protected, encrypted downloads off your own servers. Not cost effective? I know of a server farm in Texas (I use) that offers dedicated unmanaged webservers for $99 per month with 700 GB (yes, that's Gigabytes) of transfer per month.

Now, let's say A Good Source of Iron was present on ten of these servers for $1000 per month. At, let's say a $10 download (versus 19.99 for the DVD with packaging), you'd pay for the cost of the servers after 100 downloads. I've seen the number 1000 batted around -- that's ten months paid for, just from one movie. Now, let's say you have ten movies available.

Now, you're MAKING money.

Why would people use this instead of P2P for free? I already said it: HIGH QUALITY encodes (MPG, AVI, MOV), digitally signed and encrypted, every copy would have a unique password to open the file (and possibly require some kind of private key to get at the download in the first place -- more on that in a minute).

So, what would stop people from bootlegging these once they were opened? Laziness, bandwidth, etc. I'm not saying it WON'T happen, but c'mon porno people -- hop on the bandwagon and use these technologies to your advantage rather than trying to fight it. The RIAA is fighting it, and are they really winning or just pissing people off and spending gajillion of bucks on legal fees -- and is it really getting better for them? Nah -- I dare say P2P file sharing of music is as prevalent as ever before, people are just getting more savvy about it, like getting on private P2P networks.

Speaking of, WASTE is a good example (nice segueway, eh?): WASTE builds a distributed network of hosts, and secures each link in the network. In securing each link, WASTE also authenticates each link using public keys.

WASTE also provides a mechanism for hosts on this network to exchange keys automatically with each other once a host is trusted on the network.

TRUSTED is the key -- why not setup a PRIVATE file-sharing network of WASTE servers and clients and distribute keys to paying customers ONLY. The casual LEECHES won't be able to get at the movies, but people who pay would be able to share whatever content you make available back and forth as much as they want!

In conclusion, there are ways of using these technologies to your advantage, rather than fighting it or suing folks, so IMHO I say invest the money you'd spend on lawyers on perverted computer geeks (there are many on ADT) to brainstorm and implement some of this stuff for you , so we all win.

Okay, so I gave a quarter; who's got my twenty-three cents?

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Sir Noel Plum
Senior Studmuffin

2949 Posts
2/03
Posted - Feb 16 2004 : 12:42:00 PM


*Mutt* wrote:


Market is going to be smaller, limited to honest people who are looking for specific content that interests them.

nobody cares tho really. what if technology made it that we could make copies of automobiles with a few clicks of a mouse? or food even? nobody would pay for them either.



I'm not sure that's really true. It's very easy to pick up fake Tag/Rolex/Breitling watches but I'd be very surprised if these fakes have harmed these businesses much. All the fakery has done has sold watches to those who wouldn't have bought the original anyway and raised the profile of the companies concerned. Now a watch or a car is a very different proposition to a film or an album where the worth of the product is tied up in information rather than the physical medium so is more easily copied in a form that is acceptable.

More than ever then it is important to be able to differentiate the sold product (the dvd) from the pirated product (avi or vcd) so as to make the sold product, the legitimate revenue generating product, something to aspire to, with a worth above and beyond that of just the film. Even people with fake Rolexs aspire to having a genuine one and whilst that kind of response is going to be harder to achieve with a film I truly believe it is something worthy of consideration. Clearly great covers, custom packaging, fantastic extras on the disc (which will generally not be pirated), superior (not just acceptable) picture quality are all things that can help to differentiate the real mccoy from the pirated product. Personally, if I were producing porn I'd be making damned sure the behind the scenes/extra footage was as much a selling point of my films as anything else. Have a look down the list at that filenexus site, there are very few pirated films where anything is included other than the main footage itself. Just a thought.

SNP.

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imak
Adult Film Legend

10730 Posts
2/04
Posted - Feb 16 2004 : 01:18:00 PM
I went through something similar on a much smaller scale, I found a site that was selling my movies, and at a higher price than I was! I emailed the dude and asked him to stop,he didnt. I emailed his host and told them that he was copyright violating and lots of other big words. His site got taken down completely, he popped up again a few weeks later with a new host I emailed him again and he took my movies down.

last month my site got hacked and cost me a fortune in bandwidth, because I am so small it almost put me out of business completly. I posted the offenders name and adress and am billig him for everything! i found out there was even a thing I could file with the FBI! But honestly the less the FBI knows about me the better!not cause im bad but cause im paranoid!

What gets me is the a lot of the people doing this don't realize how their actions are affecting us. they figure we make enough money already (hah) or it is the price we pay for the glory of the internet!They dont realize that there piracy can affect wheather or not I make my car payment!

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Cyberchicken
Senior Member

1475 Posts
4/02
Posted - Feb 16 2004 : 04:11:00 PM
SNP, who's the girl in your avatar?

CC

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DenverDon
Benevolent Moderator

Firmly Embedded in Depravity
13605 Posts
7/02
Posted - Feb 16 2004 : 04:13:00 PM
Cyber, read this thread on SNP's avatar.

DenverDon

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skronker
Notable Legendary Icon

Scopophiliac
21078 Posts
9/02
Posted - Feb 16 2004 : 05:28:00 PM


DenverDon wrote:
Cyber, read this thread on SNP's avatar.

DenverDon


I definitely want to meet the Plums when I'm next in England!

I feel like a total outsider on this issue because while I surf and "graze" for downloadable goodies on the Internet, I absolutely refuse to deal with P2P file-sharing (too many buggies out there). The quality is so crap. I like having one paysite/megasite to fool with every month (about to change from meatholes, which has great stuff sometimes but I'm so fucking weary of watching naked fat guys with small cocks standing around swapping bad locker room jokes. Geez, I can just haul up a mirror and put on an Andrew Dice Clay record!)

But, for me, watching clips of naked ladies on my computer reduces their stroke value by at least 50% (yet, strangely, SNP's new avatar defies this axiom!) I wanna see my naked ladies on a 32-inch TV in gloriously hi-fi sound on my 200-watt digital motherfucker of an amp/processor, with 1000-step attenuated volume control through my classy German-made speakers, while plopped on my deep, high and comfy old couch
with ample supplies of food, drink and other goodies in close proximity. It's just a much better experience. Like many past the age of 40, I JUST DON'T GET DOWNLOADING/FILE SNATCHING/ETC. Clearly, I am a thing of the past, and this is the future. Guess pornsters would be wisest to adapt, adapt, adapt and try to cash in as best they can.

Ripping a VHS of a rented porn tape like we did in the old days was a virtual part-time leisure activity, partly because you could not even rent them in my town in 1991. Had to go an hour east, stockpile, dub, and then go home the next day with your "bounty." DVD quality kills. I want quality porn.

I guess I don't have anything useful to add. Just wanted to rant. Thanks DD for your continued benevolence!

Edited by - skronker on 2/16/2004 5:57:27 PM

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AlexPanzer
Deactivated User

9722 Posts
6/03
Posted - Feb 16 2004 : 06:33:00 PM
You can try to get legal with the person that rips the DVDs or the company like FileNexus. Furunkel69 rips a lot of quality movies, I downloaded bunch of them and they are good in quality. Getting legal takes a lot of time and money. But if you want to survive and stand behind you product then you gotta fight, or atleast try to. People that were behind Aspirin didn't stood behind its name/brand so now everyone can be Aspirin.
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Sir Noel Plum
Senior Studmuffin

2949 Posts
2/03
Posted - Feb 16 2004 : 06:58:00 PM
Pleased you like it Skronker

I just wanted to say that despite what Kami said about her dealing with it on 'a smaller scale' I think the reverse is true. I think for those like Kami who specifically have original content online the situation is worse.
Others have talked about the possibility that some people may buy a movie after having dloaded an avi version (not something to so easily dismiss, note the number of regulars here who have stated before they always rent before they buy then remember that for nearly everyone outside the US renting just isn't an option) and I have mentioned the fact that an original is a different product, more aspirational, a real physical thing compared to a downloaded file. Now compare this to people like Kami where in her situation you are selling a downloadable product. Here if somebody steals your content or rips your site they are distributing what you hope to sell in a form undistinguishable in every aspect from what you can offer; there can be no impetus for anyone to consider the legit product because it is in no way superior (morality aside) from the pirated product. No-one will say 'Hey, I like this file so much I'll go and pay to download the same file again'. I really feel for people who try and launch their own site only to realise just what they are up against out there.

SNP.

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imak
Adult Film Legend

10730 Posts
2/04
Posted - Feb 16 2004 : 07:20:00 PM
Thank you Sir Noel Plum!
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howie
Member

310 Posts
11/03
Posted - Feb 16 2004 : 11:58:00 PM
Great thread. From someone who in the past (viruses and spyware have scared me away) has downloaded porn but who also purchases DVDs, I think I'm in the majority as to the following:

Watching porn movies/clips on my laptop is nowhere comparable to a full-screen tv and home theater system. But being able to preview sample scenes/clips of favorite talent or recommendations is a nice luxury to have available, especially if you're going to spend approx. $25.

Honestly, haven't we all purchased movies for $30 that disappointed? Isn't pricing of adult movies cost prohibitive to interested buyers/audience? Why not have access to sample clips/scenes for prospective buyers rather than just box covers to view?

I'm not condoning file downloading because I've discovered ADT. The reviews, price comparison vehicle, and the trading forum are all wonderful. But to others, why pay when you can download for free, expecially if you have a broadband connection?

Free anything will always attract abusers. Unfortunately, the RIAA has an easier fight with music than adult video producers due to the content involved.

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imak
Adult Film Legend

10730 Posts
2/04
Posted - Feb 17 2004 : 12:36:00 AM
Howie-
"But to others, why pay when you can download for free, expecially if you have a broadband connection?"

because it's stealing, and stealing is bad. I just want people to realize the impact this faceless theft can have!

although I do think trailors are a good idea! and a lot of companies do offer this! instead of dropping the $25 renting is also an option!

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smaskens
Member

Europe
37 Posts
9/02
Posted - Feb 17 2004 : 01:24:00 AM
First, a few comments on the technical side: Several people have said that quality and being able to play on big screen TVs are reasons to buy the original DVDs. I think not. Movies can be encoded in great quality if you don't limit the filesize too much. If you take it to the extreme, you can just copy the entire DVD unchanged to an image file. With many people having 10 Mbit/s (and some even 100 Mbit/s) connections in northern Europe, downloading huge amounts of data is not much of a problem. Most computers have S-video and many digital audio that you can connect to your huge screen TV and giant audio system. I actually copy original DVDs to my harddrive just to get smoother fast forwarding and to not have to fool with getting discs in and out of the player all the time. (No, I don't share them.)

I agree that it's not something to lose sleep over. While P2P is convenient for those who want to sample movies and music, it is a very time consuming activity to find everything you need. Why would people who can afford to buy DVDs waste their time with P2P?

If you look at what's actually happening in the industry, isn't it true that the number of movies produced and the number of studios are exploding? Common sense says this is not a sign of an industry in trouble. The increased availability of porn and information about porn is helping the industry, not hurting it. What the industry needs to do now is to adapt to the new possibilities of distribution and marketing that broadband means, so that the Internet can continue to help the industry to grow.

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Brandon Iron
BrandonIron.com

4716 Posts
3/02
Posted - Feb 17 2004 : 05:20:00 AM
Update: Our webmaster has sent a Cease and Desist to the service provider for the site that is allowing this content to be shared.
I hope that other studios follow suit.
Thanks for everyone's feedback. It's good to see all the points of view.
Brandon
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Scott Kinney
xxximports.com

New Jersey
413 Posts
5/02
Posted - Feb 17 2004 : 06:41:00 AM


smaskens wrote:
If you look at what's actually happening in the industry, isn't it true that the number of movies produced and the number of studios are exploding? Common sense says this is not a sign of an industry in trouble. The increased availability of porn and information about porn is helping the industry, not hurting it. What the industry needs to do now is to adapt to the new possibilities of distribution and marketing that broadband means, so that the Internet can continue to help the industry to grow.

Actually, the number of studios and movies (or even studios and music recordings) is not 'exploding'. There were fewer movies released in 2003 than in 2002, and fewer new music titles (not counting compilations and 'best of').
And Tower Records, the music retailer, has filed for bankruptcy protection, citing nose-diving sales.

And, as far as 'adapting to the new possibilities', isn't that what Kami did by making high-quality unique digital content available over the web. And yet thieves stole the content and vandals damaged her site. (And don't even get me started on Adultbouncer, who have taken reselling pirated content to a whole different plane. Imagine car thieves, not only setting up dealerships, but selling franchises as well.)

Piracy, whether in its digital P2P form,or in the hard goods form of bootlegged DVDs and videos, is stealing. It's not a high-minded commentary on pricing and distribution. It's stealing.

A couple of other comments on point in this thread:
1. From an accounting standpoint, and to calculate damages, you *have* to count every pirated copy as a sale
not made. Attempting to minimize the numbers by disqualifying the owners of pirated material by age or income may make someone feel better, but it's irrelevant
to calculating damages.
2. As a watch collector, I can't let the notion that knock-off Rolexes, Breitlings etc. do no harm to the legitimate
makers go by unchallenged. The presence of fakes in the market damages the brand and its perception. To the extent that fakes are 'less' (less good, less sturdy, less reliable, etc.) than what they copy, they create the sense that the real watch is of lower quality. Also, to the extent that the first question popping into your head upon seeing a Rolex is "I wonder if it's real." Their brand, their reputation has been damaged.


Scott Kinney
Diversified Video Associates
www.xxx-imports.com

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licker
Senior Member

Heretic, Iconoclast, Skeptic
5773 Posts
8/03
Posted - Feb 17 2004 : 07:16:00 AM


Scott Kinney wrote:

1. From an accounting standpoint, and to calculate damages, you *have* to count every pirated copy as a sale
not made. Attempting to minimize the numbers by disqualifying the owners of pirated material by age or income may make someone feel better, but it's irrelevant
to calculating damages.


Scott, I'm sorry, but you hurt your case with statements like this. It may be a useful legal fiction for winning damages, but that's what it is. A fiction.

You simply cannot assert that a thirteen year old boy will go and buy ten grand worth of adult DVDs from his pocket money if only the Law will beat on him hard enough. It is patently ridiculous.

I sympathise with your problems, but please, hysteria will only alienate those of us who support you.


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