The roughest and most violent SM scenes which I know are in french porno movies.
Some french directors even use forbidden signs in their movies and print these forbidden signs provocative on the covers. And some directors abuse their models in real hard SM scenes.
In US porno movies I haven't seen any real violence until now, and all action is only played by the actresses.
So I think you are under a misapprehension, it's not an US problem, it's just a french problem.

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Someone who carries out a rape cannot justify the act because they watched a violent porn flick. The flick is not the problem, its the individual.

SAMURAI DAI

p.s.
Kristi Myst is fine by the way - she wasn`t really raped and murdered, it was consensual and acted.

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Lizzy Borden, last time I heard, was a female. I think wife or girlfriend, or niether to Rob Black.

But one person I can't stand and I will say this once again, I hate Wax Lardcore (for those that don't know, replace the "W" with an "M", and replace the "L" with an "H") for the simple reason that he is a wretched person.

In France , now , many people want to forbid porno movies because they think that porno movies influence young people who become violent .

Well, if it ain't the porn, and it ain't the music, and it ain't the video games, what will they blame for youth violence? They gotta blame somebody/something.

---BIGmike's AEE Adventure (photos from) thread ---

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If France is going to forbid pornography on the theory that it causes young people to become violent, then why aren't they simply forbidding specific titles or product lines that feature things that are converting youth into violent individuals? It's a crock, unless they are also going after all other media formats including mainstream movies, music, books, heck even their own culture as family members can attest to. Altering pornography so everything is all warm and fuzzy, safe and completely non-offensive to everybody or simply removing a few "violent" or "obscene" sub-genres of a relatively generalized whole isn't going to change the crusade of those that use "the protection of youth" as their cause - the very existence of pornography in any format from the vile to bland - is their enemy which they seek to eliminate.

And as stated above, France does their share of producing this type of product. To quote a friend "you should see some of the stuff they have over there"...

Are the French also going to monitor the Cannes Film Festival, which has it's fair share of independant and violent films and probably promotes more violence than the porn collection at the theatre down the street?

Besides, it looks as if the problem here is not the content of adult movies, but France's inability to police it's youth and keep adult materials, like pornography, out of their grasp. Do a quick google search to learn more about this from various news sources in the UK and around the world.

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SAMURAI DAI

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By the way, I totally agree that there is a market out there for this kind of material.

Cheers

SAMURAI DAI

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Yes , T Mac , I laugh !!! Thanks for your joke !

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I think that the problem I wrote about is not only french !
It could be more and more perceptible in USA if directors and all people in porn business don't take care !

I named in a early post for this topic a few american directors I like a lot .... and I added that I couldn't name all directors because there are too many directors . So if you are director and if I didn't name you , it's not perforce because I don't like you , but I don't know all directors' names and I can't name all directors I like because it may be very long !!!!

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I like movies from directors like Lizzy Borden, Max Hardcore, Thomas Zupko and other hardcore directors and you can't blame these directors for the stupid laws in France.

Like Brandon said: "There is a market for this type of material" and I'm part of that market :-)

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But that doesn't mean that they SHOULD make it. I'm with Marduk and Steph, it would probably be better if these types of movies were left unmade, rather than being used as fuel for anti-pornography campaigns.

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I think it would be very boring if everbody made the same kind of pornmovies.

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Edited by - Walter Burns on 3/7/2003 10:36:59 PM

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the mainstream image of porn affects the overall size of the market, which people/businesses choose to get involved in the porn biz, and in turn the product itself.

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Edited by - Walter Burns on 3/7/2003 10:39:19 PM

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the problem is that mainstream media only wants to talk about the sensationalized aspects of porn. they don't care that upstanding citizens enjoy watching sex in the privacy of their homes. they want to portray porn as the seedy underground. otherwise it aint good for ratings.

walter, hope you don't think i was saying that you were dismissing marduk's post. it was the posts before my first one that led me to post in the first place.

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DenverDon

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Edited by - Walter Burns on 3/7/2003 10:40:39 PM

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I think that there are 2 parts in the "porno world" :
1 ) the "popular" or "commercial" porno what is the part I prefer : all studios like VCA , METRO , WEST COAST , RED LIGHT DISTRICT , EVIL ANGEL , HUSTLER , NOTORIOUS , LEGEND ,... and many more ....
2 ) the "underground" porno what is the part I don't like and the part what endangers all porno business because it gives more credibility to people who want to forbid porno movies . That part shows girls beaten up , tortured , .... it shows rapes , many movies of this part are SM , scatological , ..... There are no limits .

Some movies of the "commercial" porno could have a little part of "underground" movies , could be a mix of the 2 parts . And I don't like these ones too !

The problem is : "underground" porno has no limits . Does "underground" signify that directors can film everything even the most disgusting things ?

You know all masses and media : if they would fight something , they focus on what is the worst points of what they fight , the most shocking and scandalous things of what they fight ! And all of this give them more credibility !

Yes , I am for freedom of speech , and for freedom of all kinds of arts .
But freedom doesn't signify that people can do everything !
We have reached the age of majority since a few days or a few years , or more , and we have many responsibilities towards others .
Here is a concrete exemple : if you give a gun to someone , he could use the gun to kill .
So here , if you show bad boys who rape girls , boys who watch this could rape girls , even if the film was only imaginary , was not real ! And it is dangerous !
But in some "underground" movies , what it is shown is true , and that is the most dangerous part of that .

And if you begin with a little "violent" porno movies , after watching that , you could need more violent movies , and after , more and more violent .... and you become completely weird and dangerous for other people !

So directors , producers , and people who watch porno movies have many great responsibilities for the credibility of all the "porno world" .

I only want to add that I am extremist only against extreme porno movies .
I am not against porno business !
I love to take pleasure while watching porno movies like HUSTLER's movies , RED LIGHT DISTRICT's movies , WEST COAST's movies ,... and many more ... and the movies I love ( like these I just named ) are the best part of porno business !

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Thanks for your good explanations, and excuse me for my broken English...

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Welcome to the forum.

And your English is just fine.

(Hell of a lot better than my French is I might add.)

DenverDon

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I don't like the soft couples-appeal stuff.

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Darth-Morpheous
adultdetective.com

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Walter was soo close, but let me push his points over the edge of understanding.

Go back through this discussion and replace the topic of "porn" with "television wrestling", "mainstream movies" or "Shakespeare's fight scenes." See how different this discussion would be? No political action group would get very far trying to legislate control over any of these, despite the violent content in each. Can't we all see that the engine behind any antiporn movement is anti-sexuality and the cultural shame surrounding sex? It's not about violence. The antiporn movement exploits our cultural shame of sex by using the backdoor issue of violence to shame us once again. Well my question is, where are these people when it's time to protest against bombing civilians in Iraq? *That* is *real* violence.

The anti-porn movement is not about being anti-violence, it is about the old tradition of sexual shame. These same people don't care that on a daily basis more stuntmen than pornstars sustain life-threatening injuries for their work. These people don't care that Jackie Chan's body has sustained more violence than the whole cast of Fashionistas, 2times over. Any hypocrite who stands before you and tells you that porn should be controlled because it is a violent form of media is merely making a thinly-veiled attempt to control your *sexual* freedom. Sure, pornstars have been bruised, their anuses torn, etc. But where were the protestors and politicians when the teenage stars of Spy Kids 2 sustained multiple injuries making a film that would make more money for Miramax executives who wouldn't even break a nail during production?

Obviously, I personally don't believe that Hollywood shouldn't have stunts. I just don't want any of us lulled into the antiporn movement's trap of saying "well, yeah, there are factions of our industry where violence occurs, and I don't like it either." FUCK THAT! It's movie-violence, people, whether it's made in Burbank or Chatsworth makes no difference! Does anyone think anyone was really killed in the making of Miscreants? How about Road to Perdition? Yet we live in a media-ocracy in which the same outlet will give valuable airtime to antiporn politicians one minute and in the next air a violins-rising commercial about the accolades bestowed upon a movie about a man who killed people for a living. Which movie do you think will have more influence over the culture: Road To Perdition or Cocktails 4?

Porn movies are not snuff films. Yes, some pornos have depicted fictional rape scenarios. So did The Accused. And Bastard Out of Carolina. And The Color Purple. And Law and Order. And NYPD Blue. And Cruising. And Shawshank Redemption. And Sleepers. And I could list 50 more but I know you're feeling me.

So, not to pick on you Marduk, but you started this topic: would you ever think of telling Spielberg to "please make his films without all the disgusting violence"? Or Kubrick? Or Breillat? If some politician were threatening to raid their homes and studios, would you hide behind your anonymity or would you stand up and tell that politician "hell no! This is a democracry wherein freedom of expression is valued. Censorship will not stand!"

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Ramsey, i agree with you man. I love to live in the Netherlands:-)

Marduk, let me say my opinion about this...
It's like some here already told, if you don't like it don't rent/buy it man.
I can't tell a producer what to do and or what not. It's their choice. I am not that big lover of beating up girls, not at all so don't get me wrong here. However i understand some points of some producers. If they want to make such movies, i would be the last one to stop them.They just go ahead.
As long as it isn't childporn or how they called it again when they really murder the women? Sniff movies or so? I assume once a movie is in production,The girls involved with this chosed for it self. so please don't blame the producers about that.

Now another thing....Isn't it France that always blame the Dutch drugs policy? Man it's one big party out here man..

Final conclusion:

I go to the US arround March/April to watch The Matrix 2, you really think i'm going to kill people out here once i've seen that movie and returned back home? How could you blame a movie? It's all between the ears. It's up to you what you do with it, I just go for the movie, I really don't mind if it is with or without any violence. After that i maybe rent it again once it's in the video store if it was that good or buy it. I like to watch good Gonzo movies, that doesn't mean i have to do all those things IRL ( In Real Life) ;)

JWNL

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don't take the words of a few unrepresentative individuals for the thoughts of one nation. A few French politicians might be annoyed at 1/3 of the population having smoked joints, but whatever, let them speak.
Besides, I'm not sure that the Dutch drug policy would be what I'd call "sucessful", moreover, it seems the Dutch government has gone backwards regards of drug use. Indeed, I wouldn't like going out of my home and have folks offering me cocaine or ecstasy for sale in the street.

When I took the Dutch example, it was to single out that in Amsterdam, you can find very extreme porn material, but however, as far as I know of, Netherlands has not become a country of sexual maniacs. And one more thing, if extreme porn is legal and the performers are willing and being paid for it, then I don't care. Period.

tricky*kid

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It's always the same thing : when someone criticizes something , many people think that this "someone" is an extremist , that this someone is intolerant .
SO I WANT TO WRITE TO ALL OF YOU THIS : I AM FOR FREEDOM OF SPEECH , FREEDOM OF ARTS , ..... But what I hate is all extremists in every kind of art .
Because porno movies are forbidden for children , forbidden for people who are under 18 or 21 years old , some people think that they can do everything .
SM porno movies , scato porno movies , porno movies with animals , .... do you think that these kinds of porno movies are good for all porno business ?
Some of you wrote that there is no problem : if people don't like , they must not buy or rent these movies ......
But it's the easiest answer I have ever readen !
The problem is that some people who are mentally sick can watch these movies and after watching these movies they can do all what they watched . And the more extreme are the movies , the more extreme are the things that these mentally sick people will do !!!!
But what I call the "commercial" part of porno business ( all movies from the studios like VIVID , RED LIGHT DISTRICT , METRO , WEST COAST , ..... ) is not so dangerous and I prefer to watch these "commercial" movies and to stand up for them ! Because they are more human than the "underground" part ( scato , SM , .... ) , more realistic , more exciting ......

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I do not know the situation your side of the North Sea but over in England the situation is severely fucked up,
Although we recently relaxed the rules they are still as arbitrary as ever. You talk about people enacting what they see on screen, and despite this being no more than speculation, our board of classification (and censorship) still cuts out many items such as deep throat, hands around neck etc in fact anything they regard as potentially dangerous. One scene was cut that featured a dildo on a long pole because they reckoned that injury could result from inserting a device when the giver is some distance from the receiver.
It all begs the question as to why they allow me to watch jackass tv (which I don't) or buy a video showing speeding motorists crashing their vehicles and escaping unscathed: these must present a level of danger, if re-enacted, an order of magnitude greater than the scenes they order cut from pornos.
As in most spheres people just want even-handedness and consistent decisions but it seems where porn is concerned that for some reason it is deemed that a different standard must be applied.

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I have readen many things about the situation of porno in Great Britain , and it shocks me a lot !
English politicians are too suppressing , they are too repressive , and I don't like this way of thinking !
I have heard a few years ago that an english minister , who came back from France where he raised , was catched by customs officers because he had porno magazines he bought in France . And a french journalist said that in England people can't film porno movies , because to show penetrations is forbidden !
I don't know if it's always the same shit today , but I must tell you that I pity you , because to forbid this is against freedom !

But you have maybe readen all what people wrote about the topic I posted , and in Holland , there is an "complete" freedom , and there are very violent porno movies , with very hard and violent SM scenes , scato scenes , .... and in my opinion , freedom must have some limits and in Holland these limits don't exist .
England is an extreme , and Holland is the other extreme . Either a country forbid too much or another country allows too many things !

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Dear Ramsey , it's your opinion , but as you wrote , it's off-topic !
If you thought about the problem of Iraq when you wrote this , let me tell you something : I am completely with Chirac even if I don't like what he ordinary does !
And many countries think like France : look at Russia , for example !
Generally a WAR is against a whole people , but in Iraq , the problem is Saddam Hussein : why would we do a war ? We can fight against Saddam and his generals without doing a war against the whole irakian people !
If war happens , many irakian people will die and Saddam will maybe survive .

Well , it's not the topic , so I stop writing about war !

But Ramsey , please stop insulting France ! France is maybe not the best country in the world , but Holland is not the best country in the world too !

And now , please write only about porno movies !

Thanks !

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If u live in Europe, u may as well come to France to catch the matrix sequel since it's released the same week as in the US. Would be cheaper for u

Ramsey,

On which figures do u based the fact that there are more drug addicts in France than in Netherlands ? Anyway I don't think France is ready for drug legalization. The country is just not ready yet. They tried it in Spain when the socialists were ruling. Total failure. The drug problem went worse. Junkies were taking heroin shots in public. Drug legalization must be done under strict legal constraints otherwise it would be anarchy.

marduk,

It's your POV when considering extreme porno should be banned but as I say, u don't like it, don't watch it. There are some people outhere who like to be peed on or abused cause this is how they get off. Those practices existed way before porn vids appear. Porn didn't invent anything, it just shows what human beings do behind closed doors. I don't think forbidding "simulated rapes" in movies will prevent it to happen so all the debate around what's good or wrong in porn is bullshit. I'm all for diversity in porn like in mainstream movies otherwise it would be fucking boring (picturing the nightmare, the only movies allowed in theaters were PG13 romantic comedies with Hugh Grant)

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Not true. Porn invents many things, in their race to see who can be the most outrageous.

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Now, About Holland, we have a verry good drugs system here. Suppose i'm a junky and can't buy drugs, (cocaine or whatever) then i would go out rape, rob, and maybe murder people to get some money so that i can buy my hard drugs. Now here almost every city has one central point where those drugs addicts can go every day and they get free an amount of shot. cool huh? this prevents the drugs porblem :-)

Anyway, i think Marduk that you're a bit over reacting. The fact stays, what we can do in Holland maybe in other country is not allowed, (See drugs policy) if we are allowed to make SM movies or whatever kind of movies, there are probably rules in your country what movies are allowed to import and what not. It's all up to the producers what they make and what not. It's you who makes the decission with your healthy brains if you buy/rent that movie or not.
And to be honest, if we speek about freedom of speach etc etc,... I agree that those movies are produced even if a girl is beaten up. Do not understand me wrong, i'm against beating up a women! (i've never hit a women and never will!!!) But if that girl chose for it to be a part of that movie she just go ahead. I just won't rent/buy it. simple as that. I just hope that the person who rents those movies just stay in house. I see it more as that there are whores out on the street. I'm happy they are there, could you imagine a world without whores? How many rapes there would be without them? Now i just go and buy a movie and start jerking of or so, and don't have to go out on the streets to rape one! ( Don't take that personally, i never could but as an example)

JWNL

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IRL ( In Real Life) was a few weeks ago on the news.
There was a German guy who advertised on internet and was looking for somebody who offered his own body as food.
Now somebody took that offer, they made a contract, had some fun, and after everything was ready, the advertiser killed that person, took of his body parts and cooked it and eated it. Now the guy ( Advertiser) was captured, but as far as i know they can't do shit about it. Simply because the victim signed a contract for it and agreed with it. And my opinion on this is.... The Advertiser is sick, but the one who offered his own body and signed that contract is even more sick! But this is how i see this happening, maybe my neighbour think it was smart, etc, etc..What i try to say with thi is that we're still free to do whatever we want. freedom of speech, freedom of act, and so on.So the producers to...

JWNL

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Edited by - Walter Burns on 3/7/2003 10:42:39 PM

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