Welcome to the forum.
I agree with you totally.
Obviously most Gonzo fans won't.
So, be prepared for some harsh replies.

BTW, if we like it or not, Gonzo is not a niche market.

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In addition, there are many women, both in and out of the industry that LIKE the type of sex that you find violent. You need to consider that.

However, I agree that the scenario you described would, and should, be considered a crime. I truly believe that is the exception in the gonzo industry, not the norm.

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Edited by - Tinaka on 5/17/2005 2:28:03 PM

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unfortunately im guessing that the best and fastest in to the business is with some of these gonzo features. they're basically taking advantage of naive girls who think they are going to make it big.

id like to hear the opinions of women on here like melissa lauren, or kelly wells.

Im undecided. ive seen somet thats downright hot, but for the most part, i think that shit is best kept a fantasy. Skeeter's stuff isnt really gonzo, the girls look like they are seriously into it, but are still being taken to the max. To me that is a much more exciting thing to see.

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Both know how to shot porn better than MOST all other directors.

And I also don't think I would group director or company who makes Gonzo with those who produce Meatholes and/or Max Hardcore....

P.S. OneOneZero, Gonzo doesn't equal abused women, It just depends on the company you watch. For example JM is known for not being so "women friendly" where as Zero Tolerance is known for that - granted the fall into All Sex most of the time in my book, but still there's a very fine line between Gonzo and All Sex.

P.P.S For what it's worth, here's the ADT Porn Diktionary's version of Gonzo:
"Gonzo: founder of gonzo is John "Buttman" Stagliano. His wife Tricia Devereaux was kind enough to give us THE definition:
"Gonzo can take on several different forms. It can vary from the cameraman (in adult, very often the director) interviewing the actors, or participating in the scene with dialogue and/or sex. It can also mean that the actors are simply acknowledging the fact that there is a camera shooting what they are doing. So, although in adult gonzo, the cameraman is usually somehow visible or audible, simply the actors playing to the camera constitutes a gonzo scene." " - I concur with this statement.

Edited by - PL on 5/17/2005 3:24:44 PM

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I agree that gonzo porn is rougher and riskier (injuries, diseases) than feature porn because it caters to a different audience.

But the performers can stop scenes or leave the industry whenever they want.

Just my 2 cents.

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If you want to condemn the whole industry for the bad apples I can't stop you, but consider the injustice you're doing to the producers and directors who actually like women and treat their performers with respect.

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I have nothing against one particular "genre" of porn!

Please select your own appropriate term to replace "gonzo" in my thread instead.

Thanks to those who have read my thread and replied with appropriate comments. It's good to hear I'm not the only one who's unhappy to hear such stories!

Max Hardcore seems to making lots of press recently for being so abusive (or rather just being an old guy who hates women). I saw him in an interview saying how, in "his" type of "porn", the pleasure (or lack of) of his female performers is not a concern for him. He makes no apologies for this.

Now, it's one thing for this to be a FANTASY. That's a whole other ball game. Where the women are getting into this, don't mind it, and happily appear in these sorts of movies.

The problem lies with the fact that some of these women are ACTUALLY BEING ABUSED and they viewers know this and LIKE IT. The ACTUAL physical and mental humiliation of women isn't pornography, but it's hiding in the guise of it at the moment.

If you've seen interviews with Max Hardcore's "regular" girls they'll tell you that even THEY don't enjoy the sex they film. Their exact quote was: "it doesn't feel good, but at least it doesn't hurt". They come across as people with such low self esteem that they simply don't care anymore. It's not pretty, but it's better than stories like the one I mentioned in the beginning of this thread.

Edited by - OneOneZero on 5/17/2005 8:44:10 PM

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That having been said, if it's against the will of any participant, it's wrong. Don't think I condone anything forced upon a person, as I'm sure 99 if not 100% of the people here would agree.

I would guess that the situation you mentioned earlier is rare. I would also guess that a filmmaker making a documentary or news piece meant to bash porn would not include anything in the way of support for porn in his/her movie/reel/piece/segment/whatever.

One other point, something I touched on before. Porn has nothing to do with the enjoyment of the actors. It's all about fulfilling the desires of the viewer. After all, it's the viewer that pays for it. Now, if the viewer wants tender, romantic scenes, or is concerned with the pleasure of the woman, or wants to see men have their balls crushed, or women humiliated, that's what they will find and pay for.

But, I do agree that unwilling participation is wrong.

On a different note, you mentioned that this stuff doesn't go on in hospitals or schools or wherever else (not that it doesn't go on, but that it is punished, not stood for). Well, if a girl signs a contract to appear in a scene and perform certain acts, and then decides she doesn't want to, shouldn't the producer or production company be able to sue her for breech of contract?

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I am going to go with the bottom line if they are paid they know what they are getting into if for some reason it goes to far there should be a safety word such as in BSDM.

Otherwise I wish that porn fans would stop complaining we face enough pressure for the general public without porn fans themselves asking for more censorship...if you don't like Max or similar product DON'T buy it, but let me OK?

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My two cents. Flame away.

Quaze

Edited by - Mike Quasar on 5/18/2005 12:25:10 AM

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As far as humiliation and being 'bullied in the workplace' goes, these women are adults who make their own choices. If they are being 'bullied' then they can simply leave. I'm sure that if they get sued for breach of contract for that, a judge will not take the side of a porn company that wanted to commit abuse to an actress. I think that adults can make poor choices at times in all aspects of life and they pay for it. Porn actresses who are not up for abuse films should not sign on for them and if they do so and can't do it, they can simply leave...bottom line.

With that said, I don't think that there is much unexpected abuse that occurs in these films. Many of the actresses that do these films show up in other films of this nature such as Summer Luv, Melissa Lauren, Ava Devine, Belladonna, Catalina, Heather Gables, Julie Knight, etc. I can't see myself agreeing with your perception of these films, OneOneZero. I think that you are living in a different world than the one that the actresses I mentioned above are living in. Some women are into this stuff and others think they are but find out that they aren't the hard way, in which case they no longer do these types of films.

I would also say that the films produced by the U.S. companies are by far softer then ones produced by the adult industries in Germany, Japan and Brazil. Perhaps you should start directing your anger at those film industries first. However, I think that you will find that the same actresses appear over and over in the same kind of aggressive and degradion natured films in those industries as well.

One last thing, I believe that you said you live in London and if I am not mistaken BDSM is quite popular there and has been for decades. People volunteering to be abused because they desire that right? If it becomes too difficult on the person, safe words or signals are used to stop it and they use them in the american adult entertainment world as well.

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Nevertheless, it is possible for some of the women to be in real distress, and simply enduring it so the baby has a roof over its head, or food to eat. You can chide the women for their poor choices, but that doesn't change their perception of reality and what they have to do to get by.

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Melissa

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- Your kink is O.K., it is just not my kink; so I don't watch/practice it.

- If the concept of safe, sane and consensual or risk aware consensual kink isn't followed in practicing a certain technique/behaviour, this is not a matter for complaining, but filing a charge at the nearest office of a prosecutor (this also applies at a working environment such as a porn set).

- Your kink may not be my kink, but I will not allow the ne-con-fundamentalist-republican-catholic-muslim-nazi hordes to ban and outlaw your kink.

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MelissaLauren, your as beautiful as ever, just seen a few more of your most recent films. Your the hottest in the whole industry.

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Before a meathole or Max Hardcore DVD will find the way into my DVD-player, I'd rather watch the "Bridges of Madison County".

*shudder*
Forced to watch "The Bridges of Madison County", now that would be an act of degradation, dehumenizing(sic!) and outright violence!

Edited by - Zartyr on 5/18/2005 12:56:21 AM

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While I have a problem with some of the practices that Extreme Ass. and others invoke, (chocking and extreme bondage with no experience among the worst I can think of), these women do have the knowledge that they will be "abused" and "humiliated" going in.

Mabe some of the talent from these types of movies will tell us if there were safe words in place, or if they were truly abused in such a way that we should be concerned. Maybe they won't because they want to keep working, and don't want to confess. Or maybe there is nothing to confess.

I do know that if there's an actual case of abuse beyond what is acceptable, the porn chick it happened to is bound to be on KSEXradio.com to tell us all about it soon enough.

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I hate motherfuckin' walmart, I hate their business practices and the way they treat their employees* so I boycott them completely and urge you all to the same. That's about the most I can do. If you don't like Meatholes, don't put any money in their pockets. Ugly world, few solutions.

* (i can think of more than a few former walmart employees, foxy girls, who wound up doing rough rough porn, and while they hate swallowing cum or getting piledrivered in the ass, they prefer it over minimum wage humiliation)

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I fail to see how bragging about standing up to your bosses is relevant. I'm sure it's nice that you did so but it is naive to assign your experiences and character attributes to everyone else. Some people will not stand up for themselves and that's all there is to it.

Since I've never polled the actresses who've worked for Max, I have no idea what they did or didn't know going in. Neither do you. As for them being prepared for their scene by a verbal description of what was going to happen, let me just suggest that you go to the dentist and have him describe to you how he's going to pull your tooth without anesthetic, then see if that prepares you for the reality. This is not to suggest that the actresses couldn't know what to expect, but rather that counting on a description to inform someone of reality is another example of naivety. It may help, it may not. That depends on how well the description matches experiences that person has had in real life.

Regarding jobs, it may surprise you to know that not all job descriptions begin and end with the applicant being attractive. Actual skill sets may be required. However, my point wasn't about the realities of the job market but about how people perceive themselves and their circumstances, and how this affects what they do to make a living. Again, pointing out how their perceptions differ from the reality is really beside the point.

Finally, I'm not sure what 'limit' it is that you think Max is always trying to push, but I do know that he's not providing me with any entertainment these days.

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Interviewer:
"Before we get into the whole Rough Sex thing, I have to ask you, what's the deal with you and Max?"

Regan Starr:
"Max Hardcore is a good friend of mine and I don't think I will ever talk badly about him because he always gave me the respect I deserved. His scenes are always rough and the scenes he did with me are probably among the roughest of anything he has done. However, we had an understanding that it was fake and we were acting. There is a big difference between acting and realism. Max was rough, he was kinky and he pushed the limits, but he was also able to stop the cameras and be Max off camera while I was taking a breather and preparing for whatever vulgarity might come next. I will never bad mouth Max because of the respect. He talks to me like a human being and like I have brains. He would never do anything to me that I didn't want him to do. There was nothing in those films that I wouldn't do for someone else."

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Let me explain what I mean:

The problem with abusive/humiliation porn for me is that it's REAL. I've seen/heard about documentaries showing behind the scenes in a Max Hardcore shoot, where the women are literally bullied into doing sexual acts. I've seen them cowering in the toilet, throwing up, tears streaming down their faces saying they "can't do it, I just can't do it, I'm sorry" and then the producer/director coming in and yelling at them, "Who the fuck do you think you are?! Get back in there and finish the fucking scene!". She's totally shaken, crying. "I can't, I can't" she says, choking back tears, looking absolutely destroyed. Previously she had been up for anything, but she didn't realize how nasty it was going to be. "You're never going to work in this town again if you don't get back in there and finish the fucking scene!" he yells back at her.

Okay, I've read enough of this bullshit. The writer here is mixing things up, to the point where a casual reader wouldn't be able to tell if you're talking about me or someone else. Who is this mysterious 'producer/director' you're referring to? Cowering and throwing up in the toilet? Where the hell did you get that from?

It sure as hell ain't me, because I have never told a girl that she wouldn't work in this town again, or to get back and finish the fucking scene. Unless it was part of a script.

The documentary you're vaguely refer to, was done by a freelance outfit out of the UK, who then sold it to Channel 4. The piece was a complete 'hatchet job,' a total set-up, and those boys did a real fine job at making porn look bad. But the reality of the situation is much less shocking.

The girl in question, Felicity, was brought in by their crew, and was a 'ringer' in their effort to make hardcore porn look bad. That's what sells! They used this chick in ways I would never imagine doing, basically ruining her life at home in England.

Felicity came packing some pretty heavy emotional baggage, which I didn't know about before hand, but when she snapped on the set only a few minutes into the scene, I knew that she wasn't mentally fit for this business. I talked to her after she walked off the set without explanation, and had a calm chat with her up in the dressing room. At NO TIME did I yell at, or berate her. But I could see that there was no way we were going to finish the scene. I simply said okay, and that's that.

The documentary crew scrambled up the timeline to make it look as bad as possible for me. But I don't really care except that they keep reserecting the damn report, then I have to explain it all over again.

I'll leave you with this: There's no way anyone can speak with authority on what's really happening on a set, or how a girl feels, unless they are there the whole time. As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, some girls like it rough, and have no problems on the set. Other girls aren't so comfortable with it, and that's why I go out of my way to explain things to them before hand, using video, pictures, and exit interviews with girls who've previously worked for me.

If they're not down with the program, they're free to leave anytime, and I tell them that before we roll a single frame.

Max

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Edited by - andy2 on 5/19/2005 5:03:31 AM

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And anyone thinking of the Lain "incident", it is obvious to anyone who watched the video that it was all scripted and setup. For god sakes they had multiple camera angles and lighting setup when the crew guy went in the bathroom to "cheer her up."

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Rest assured all those moaners out there, that I honestly came here to learn the TRUTH about such stories, not just to "troll". If you honestly think that people periodically post genuine CONCERNS for the performers just to make you feel guilty and defend yourselves that you've got some weird issues!

And to those REALLY sick fucks who actually tried to DEFEND the story I told in my first post, without knowing whether it was completely true or not, you SERIOUSLY need some help. Even MAX HARDCORE is ashamed to be associated with such stories. Think about that for a second.

To be honest, that's where a lot of my concern comes from: The fact that with this type of porn, people are watching it, half-believing it to be true... and STILL getting off on it. Why doesn't it bother people that the performers are NOT actually "getting off on it"?

Even KELLY WELLS, who has actually WORKED WITH MAX and is someone who speaks HIGHLY of him, has just admitted that afterwards she said she would NEVER do it again. She DIDN'T enjoy it. Her anus was "WRECKED" afterwards. She was also obviously unclear how nasty it would be, because afterwards she seriously considered never working in porn again...

Max, despite sounding like a very rational and sane human being who would never subject girls to anything they didn't want to, and despite distancing yourself from my (admittedly) skewed version of events, your "porn" is still nothing more than getting girls to agree to do things that they don't enjoy and filming it. You've said this yourself in interviews.

What's the difference between this and "Bum Fights"?

Don't you care that some guys are going to think that women actually ENJOY being treated this way? Even Belladonna, queen of gonzo, has admitted that she doesn't actually enjoy her scenes and that she ACTS like she's being pleasured. Sometimes after gruelling shoots she's been unable to WALK the next day because of the pain.

Ok, ok, so I'm referring to the "slammed" ABC Primetime special on Belladonna. I know a lot of people consider this to be a piece of shit, but you can't get away from Belladonna's ACTUAL QUOTES during the interviews.

Here's what she said ON CAMERA to ABC about her first scene:
"I wasn't ready for anal sex. It was painful. But I can hide it really well."

Here's what she said about in a pornsite interview: "I hadn't had sex for a couple of months so I was really horny," Belladonna says, grinning widely. "I wasn't nervous at all." As for the anal, she says "it was really nice. I loved it."

Gee, which could be the truth?

Am I wrong about this? Again, if someone can just show me an interview where Belladonna says she was coaxed into saying this stuff, then fine.

On the flip-side, here's what Belladonna has said about the ABC Primetime special since: "I am not happy about Primetime," says Belladonna, "but I would love to see the whole story air one day so everyone can see how much I had to say that was FOR the porn industry. If you know me you know that I LOVED shooting!".

Why would she contradict herself like that? Perhaps because her slutty persona needs to be maintained because, as Max said, "that's what sells!"?

I'm shocked that after hearing such stories, even if Belladonna was misrepresented (there are other actresses openly admitting here that they DON'T actually enjoy it, like Kelly Wells, above, and Max's "regulars"), that people are still turned on by this!

Edited by - OneOneZero on 5/23/2005 5:07:42 PM

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SO, we're all done here.

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