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Mike Quasar
Zero Tolerance

Reluctant pornographer
1765 Posts
7/01
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 1:43AM
Okay, I know that I'm opening a pandora's box here but....

In my opinion, we desperately need a change of pace in the gonzo world. Everybody is shooting the same thing over and over. I have my own ideas as to how I would like to alter the format a bit but I don't make movies for me, I make them for the home viewer.

I think the "tease, blowjob, 3 or 4 positions, cumshot" formula is getting a bit tired. I did my time making features and I always felt that spending 12 hours shooting dialogue and 2 hours shooting sex was counter-productive to the reason people buy smut in the first place but I do believe that sex can be hotter if some context is given to it but that's just me.

What do you think?

Let the pigeons loose!!!

Quaze

realtip
Deactivated User

2301 Posts
6/04
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 2:06AM
I fully agree with everything you said Mike Quasar. Porn has become so predictable and unoriginal that it's ridiculous. They are indeed all starting to be exactly the same. Where's the originality? As someone who is not in the porn industry, I, for one, happen to have all kinds of ideas that I'm sure would be great for a porn movie. Sometimes I even wish that I were a porn director because I cannot believe that I am the only one who thinks of these ideas. Surely, with all the porn directors working now, there must be somebody thinking outside of the box. But if so, where are they? It seems like everybody is trying to imitate everybody else, and that they're all just making videos for the sake of making them.
If your ideas are original and halfway decent, go for it. As a viewer, I would welcome some fresh, new ideas, just as long as they're not as mundane as alot of the stuff being made now.
MASAMUNE
Senior Member

1452 Posts
12/04
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 2:31AM
this vignette style has been done a lot, but unfortunately, not with much success in my opinion

The scenarios aren't written/developed/executed well enough and there aren't many female performers with good enough acting skills

Elaborating on the context surrounding sex is an attempt to delve into the psychology behind it. Most people don't know where to start. I recommend reading erotic fiction as a jumping off point. I think most porn directors don't have that kind of patience to deal with something so subtle like that but there's a lot to learn in that area though

I think you should go ahead and expand into this Quasar. I know you did this for your movie Girlvana. The hardest thing probably is keeping the viewer suspended in the reality that you create. As i said i have little faith in female talent's acting ability to do so. (usually as soon as the sex starts they fall out of character) . Maybe its a bigger failure on the part of direction

go for it! personally, i love a bit of context to my porn and am also VERY jaded with gonzo at the moment. A situation that is psychologically sexy is so much more powerful than all the circus act sex that's flooded the market recently

Edited by - masamune on 3/13/2006 2:36:14 AM

Twizted6
Senior Member

Good & Evil is merely a matter of perspective, I perfer to call myself... Determined
1229 Posts
7/05
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 2:33AM
I like the idea of short vignettes. They don't have to related stories. Some examples:

1) Guy walks into a strip club, watches a few dances, gets a lap-dance, then is taken into a private room...

2) A couple plans a night of kink. The woman ties her man to a chair, blindfolds him and puts a ball-gag in his mouth. Then says she'll be right back. She leaves him stewing for several minutes before removing the blindfold. To his surprise, a couple of unknown men are now standing naked in their room. She leaves him tied & gagged...

3) A couple goes to a bar. They order drinks and survey the room. When she spots a man (or woman) she likes, he says "go do your thing". She approaches this person and makes a proposition...

4) Two couples doing the web-cam thing, keep trying to out-do each other...

5) After meeting on an adult personals site, a male masseuse takes his date home for an oil-massage including a glass butt-plug to loosen up that pesky sphincter muscle...

Some setups would definately be more time consuming than others, maybe you could even out the scenes per movie. This is something I've given cosiderable thought to, how to bridge the gap between a feature and gonzo.

Good luck Quaz!

Gunzo
Senior Member

1377 Posts
2/05
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 3:18AM
I've always enjoyed the silly donut theme of Baker's Dozen... and Belladonna's 'My ass is haunted' got a very cool theme as well. I don't like features, they're trying to be real movies against all odds...

The sex should be more improvised, just let the fuckers loose on each other for a while and see what happens... the problem is that most performers are already so trained that they would probably produce a scene similar to everything else.

Like the 'Drive thru' series... no directing it says, but it's still pretty much the same thing as if it were directed because this is how the performers are trained.

 
Joey Starr
Senior Member

Still wanking after all these years.
8082 Posts
10/00
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 3:38AM
I think watersports and fisting should be incorporated in the scenes.

Also rubber and vinyl outfits, and fully clothed fucking in business attire.

And more toy play with classy silicone toys and butt plugs, for the female AND the male talent.

Hardware All-Star Supporter
All-Star Member

Your other left
14594 Posts
3/02
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 3:47AM
There's nothing inherently wrong with "tease, blow job, 3 or 4 positions & cumshot." However, you can't just take any old footage and expect great results. For starters, most "tease" I've seen doesn't even come close to being tease. It looks like she doesn't know what to do and the cameraman/director doesn't know what to do, either. It should never have got out of the editing bay.

As for blowjobs, for one to be interesting the woman has to convey that she wants that cock. I don't get that from 99% of the "blowjobs" I see. Mostly I see women getting face-fucked. OK, some women like that, but that's not the vibe I'm getting most of the time, so I don't like that. Go watch an old Tiffany Mynx blow job. Now that's what I'm talking about.

"3 or 4 positions" - I suppose you could go through the Kama Sutra but ultimately sex is just sex. The spice is all in the setup and the interaction between the participants.

I don't have much interest in circus sex, so it's not much of a performance when the woman gets treated like a piece of meat. She needs to be a willing participant who actually enjoy what's happening. It would help it your footage "says" that she likes it, not that she's allowing it to happen to her.

Basically, the formula only works if each of the elements work. While shooting the formula is a good place to start, ultimately the scene should comprise those pieces that work, not just what the formula 'demands.' If that means all your scenes aren't the same, either in content or length, well, maybe that's a good thing.

Oh, and :::PLEASE::: would somebody get a clue about costumes?! Sure, some guys like to see women completely naked. Hell, I like to see them naked. However, after watching Suzie Q get naked ten times in a row, I'm ready for some variety. There's a wide-wide-world of women's clothing out there. I'd think somebody would figure out how to get the most out of it.

Finally, regarding vignettes, these were widely used by Private back when Private was making a name as the producer of hot smut. Yes, they can work, but it takes more than a vignette to make porn hot. Adamo, anyone?

Joey Starr
Senior Member

Still wanking after all these years.
8082 Posts
10/00
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 4:04AM
Also midgets and foot fetish stuff for Ramsey.
Derek117
Senior Member

1605 Posts
1/06
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 9:05AM
If the girl is "naturally" good-looking (not just made-up, and pumped-up with plastic surgery), and the background settings are attractive (outdoors: beach, mountains, etc.) and the girl "likes" the guy she's working with-- and he isn't a complete egotistical jerk--you have a good chance of getting a good scene.

What's hurting most porn today is the people fucking each other don't seem to even "know" each other, not to mention "like" each other. And, they're not good enough actors to hide this fact. No chemistry. No passion. Makes for a cold, cold scene.

Just one man's opinion.

picman
Senior Member

Nothing says I love you so much as a tongue in the ass.
2884 Posts
1/03
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 9:24AM
Quaze, you know this question has been asked numerous times. There is no global answer, and as you well know, not every director is working with the same toolbox. If there's one thing that stands out about where porn has gone, it's that it has become less organic. Things don't happen because they're led into naturally and the scenes become nothing more than a timed series of planned acts. Production schedules must be met, as well as company formulas for what they want to see in their videos and how much time is allotted for same. Maybe the best you can do under those circumstances is to pay more attention to casting decisions and try to match up people who genuinely want to fuck each other.
BigBobxxx
Senior Member

2681 Posts
5/04
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 10:25AM
I agree with Hardware on this.

An excellent example is ZT's own Strip Tease Then Fuck series. Yeah, there's a formula, but the girls are attractive and made-up nicely, the "sets" are appealing and, most importantly, the camera and editing know what they're doing.

It's still the same old story...
No matter how many times you've seen it, porn is about attractive people having sex. I never get tired of quality porn.

The more studios keep trying to do "something new" (e.g. circus acts, multiple partners, toys, degradation, etc), the more they fuck it up!

The greater problem, as I see it, is the economics of it.
There's very little reward in the market place for the companies that put more time, effort and money into producing their product. If, in fact, when everything sells for or rents for the same price, the quality houses are actually the ones penalized for doing a better job.
What's up with that?

Perhaps there is a way to make quality "formula" porn that remains "interesting" because of an effort to properly set-up and tease the viewer before the action starts. Personally, seeing the girl completely dressed and looking hot as the scene is being set-up contributes enourmously to the "oh, yeah" factor when they finally get into the sex.

I'll be happy to suggest affordable set-up scenarios later on as this thread develops.

BIGmike
B-I-G-m-i-k-e

2335 Posts
3/01
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 11:01AM
Having not read any of the replies yet, I will say what I believe is a problem: Too much porn. I've been saying this for a while, but my voice seems to not be heard so much.

Too many studios releasing too many titles. This is a problem for people who have never rented a title, only bought DVDs. People like me.

Would it be so bad if one studio released under 5 DVDs a month instead of 20 or more? Would it be so bad to see quality over quantity? Instead of releasing 20 DVDs of mixed mediocre scenes and good scenes, release 5 DVDs of great scenes.

I been on porn hiatus for over 2 years, recently jumped back into the reviewing thing. The titles I missed during that time are countless. The stars who were big are now gone. Porn moves fast, stars come and go, and too much porn can make it all look tired, boring, done many times over.

- -B -I -G -m -i -k -e, here and there, over and out! - -

Rumpled Foreskin
Member

310 Posts
5/05
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 11:12AM
Yes! Porn is a niche genre in film/video. There are only two sexes in human existence, only three orifices available, and just so many positions/groupings possible...unless you go way, way off the kinky end.

So what variable is left? The personalities of the talent -- the women. I'll gladly buy DVDs of certain starlets over others, even if they are, as Hardware says, doing "tease, blow job, 3 or 4 positions & cumshot" over and over again.

Faunus
Member

208 Posts
1/03
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 11:26AM
Hoe about a series of vignettes that are related, but not linked together in a plot. Like an opening with a group of people on a bus, then showing the different kinds of sex those people had that day. Or a group of people at a business meeting, all looking the same int heir business suites, but then flash to the night before and they all are doing weird different things in their private sex lives.
Myload
Senior Member

A rose is what you are to me
2069 Posts
6/03
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 11:53AM
"Girlvana" is proof that the vignette style can work. I think that this is the direction to continue in. Porn can be more than just people fucking. That alone can get boring after a while.
 
darkside762000
Member

United Kingdom
91 Posts
3/06
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 12:53PM
Quaze, I've got a concept nailed down which, with all due respect to Vince Vouyer, would leave 'The Gauntlet' dead on its' ass.

It doesn't require any 'fresh off the bus' talent to make it marketable (in fact, it would be more suited to slightly more established perfomers with something of a fanbase), and I can confidently guarantee it will capture the imagination of the porn-buying public. Many people on here decry the AVN awards as being unrepresentative of who's the best...this idea will answer the questions unequivocally, once and for all. Everyone will be rooting for their own particular favorite, but there's no cheesy voting crap involved. It's down to the talent themselves...

It would require the release of just 7 (4>2>1) DVDs in a calendar year to make a complete 'series' of it. The budget wouldn't be too far out of the ordinary either, which I'm sure you'll be glad to hear. Each disk/movie can (and will) be shot in a single day...

Hopefully this gives you a vague enough idea of what the overall concept is, but let me tell you, the devil is in the details on this one!

If you want to know some specifics, and discuss my prospective concept pitch a little further, please feel free to mail me at darkside762000*yahoo.co.uk (replace the * with an @...you know the drill!)...I think you'll be glad you did!

yyyyYYYYYYyyyy
Member

87 Posts
10/05
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 1:00PM
For me there is nothing any porn director can do that is so remarkable that will make me watch an actress who means nothing to me. That is why the current format that sees 5 to a dozen different faces packed into one title is such a great disappointment to me.

If you take out all those actresses that don't interest me you are left with a DVD that is 80% blank - so what I am essentially paying for is blank media. Not so in Japan where single actress = whole disc, where each release is like a new novel by your favourite author. As a consumer it is not a good deal to pay for something with Sunny Lane on the cover when she only makes up 20% of the actual content. I want to pop in the DVD and see only Sunny Lane from beginning to end without ever hitting ff. Whoever makes a DVD like that will be lauded roundly as a genius.

Each release should be packaged with the mentality that the pornstar is the S T A R , with the same product/artist unification-identification as say a Radiohead album which has more attraction than say tracks #3 and #10 on crapola compilation UK.

BigBobxxx
Senior Member

2681 Posts
5/04
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 2:06PM
Unfortunately, putting Sunny Lane on five different boxcovers will sell far more units -- to the general public -- than making a single all Sunny Lane original

Another problem with this is that, over time, I have become conditioned to avoid single-artist titles because they are usually inferior compilations.
I DO understand what you are suggesting and would like to see exactly what you are asking for. I just don't see it working in the general marketplace.

Janitor
Retired

Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service.
6409 Posts
11/99
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 3:01PM
and have some idea ahead of time what these people are really into. make it true that the actors are living out their fantasies onscreen.

how often do directors talk with the talent before the day of the shoot?

-Kelly-
Senior Member

2517 Posts
5/03
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 3:25PM
BigBobXXX said:
"I DO understand what you are suggesting and would like to see exactly what you are asking for. I just don't see it working in the general marketplace."

Same here. What's interesting is that before a large portion of the industry (and market) decided that pornography didn't need stories the focus on the STAR was quite common. For example, it's really rare for me to pick up an old Victoria Paris film that features her in less than (at least) two scenes. The focus, though always partially on finding the next new thing, was on the individual girl as the star-that girl as the primary means of selling your product and thus the much more prominent contract girl system of the time.

To some degree, this system is still in place. Vivid, Adam & Eve, Wicked, and others have their contract girls that get front covers and storylines centered around them. Plus, non-contract girls get similar treatment in old-fashioned features (She Bangs -Sunny Lane, 5 People You Meet in Porn -Harmony) or one-off all-sex titles (John Leslie's Naomi film). However, outside of this what we mostly have is the Male Performer/Director as star. The girls in his film are interchangeable; he's the one constant. The girl, of course, is always the true star. However, on the all-sex market most of the girls aren't really presented as stars: they're a great bubble butt or a great set of breasts. Not that old VCA covers didn't make puns about Victoria Paris or Tracey Adams' breasts of course, but to me there's a definite marked difference in the presentation.

I think the further the industry gets away from the days of Linda Lovelace and Marilyn Chambers the more antiquated the idea of a "porn star" becomes in the industry as well as on the market. As was pointed out, does it make more sense to devote an entire film to one star or put her on the cover of 5 different titles that each only feature her in one scene? Personally, I'd be out there wanting to make films with girls I dig, like Avy Scott (!) or Sunny Lane, in something like 3 of 5 scenes. However, I'd probably have to go to a feature company to do it.

BIGMike said:
"I will say what I believe is a problem: Too much porn."

I concur. That is most definitely a huge factor in the problems with current pornography. And most of the new companies that pop up are just copying off the more established companies who in turn were already copying off of other companies who in turn were....(of course, to counter my own argument weren't all of the feature companies in the Video Age just copying off of each other too?)

Hardware said:
"Oh, and :::PLEASE::: would somebody get a clue about costumes?! Sure, some guys like to see women completely naked. Hell, I like to see them naked. However, after watching Suzie Q get naked ten times in a row, I'm ready for some variety. There's a wide-wide-world of women's clothing out there. I'd think somebody would figure out how to get the most out of it."

The way I see it on the all-sex market pretty much all of the girls are made to look like whores. Porn is about fantasy so this definitely has its place on the market. However, if I want to see a girl in something closer to everyday clothing which she gradually loses during a scene I pretty much have to look into features, classics, or the amateur market. That's the thing. It's not like we don't have options. However, the all-sex market is increasingly not an option for me, and this is just one of the reasons. Yes, I like watching Naomi walk around in tight fitting shorts or any other girl in fence net bodystocking, but if it is all I see the girl wearing in her scenes for the all-sex companies I'm bound to get tired of it.

I often watch BTS segments and see girls going through their suitcases showing the director lingerie she could wear and think that the girl would look good to me just starting the scene with what's she wearing or at least starting that way and then changing into the lingerie to give the viewer some frame of reference. However, in a non-storyline context I guess that simply can't be done. I'm not at all wishing that porn would do away with dirty lingerie. After all, it is still better than just starting off with the girl naked, and I do still love seeing a girl in fence net stockings. I'm just arguing that costumes are definitely a factor in the homogeneity of current all-sex porn, and suggesting that more variety is needed.

Okay. I've edited this way too many times now.

Edited by - -Kelly- on 3/13/2006 6:01:09 PM

Oral B.
Member

349 Posts
4/05
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 5:38PM
This is why I mostly rent Sineplex movies these days.
They seem to be the only ones around trailblazing with new girls and interesting ideas/fettishes.
There is always room for improvement though.
And it seems with every new release, they do just that.
I still like plenty of other stuff.
But I must contest... I rarely even look at the back of certain dvd's. Cause I know it's just going to be another dp fest, With some girl I've seen 20 times already screaming her head off.
I can imagine this is a difficult thing to do well though.IE:(produce good porn)
I wouldnt want to work in the creative department of a porn studio.
There must be strict limits, and budgets, as to what you can produce...?


bono-ONE All-Star Supporter
All-Star Member

SAMCRO
8570 Posts
8/00
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 6:40PM
Mike Quasar you aren't saying something to me that I don't think is accuarate. It's like rock'n' roll-- pretty much everything that can be done has been done, not to say you can't still put out great music but then it's down to your passion and how hard you play, write, communicate what you want to get across to the listener. In porn it's pretty much the same, you are correct in that you can shoot reverse cowgirl anal in so many ways. To me the success of a scene starts off with the girl or girls and how believable they are in conveying their enjoyment of the scene. The guy having a good hard dick is important, of course. How I would like more scenes to go is something like this.

Have a couple of girls in fairly normal clothing-- no mesh, collars. Maybe a white shirt opened up just a little to give us some cleavage shots, then maybe a pair of tight jean shorts-- Daisy Dukes maybe or regular shorts. You have the girls dialogue something easy then go into some g/g action. This would involve about 5 minutes of them teasing each other, then slowly removing the others clothes but don't rush it let them ease into the scene by doing a lot of kissing and I mean real french kissing, deep, long, and sustained for more than two seconds. Then you get into some good boob kissing-- it would help if both or at least one had good sized titties and also have the girls share some nipple licking and also tease the other with eye contact as she licks her own nipple. I think this would heighten the eroticism of the scene and we then could go into the oral sex plus have the girls rim the other ass, maybe work in a 69, have one girl also sit up with the other underneath licking pussy. I mean really have some passionate g/g lovmeaking with no toys and let this last for almost 15 minutes maybe then bring in a guy and have the girls slowly help him out of his pants-- have him do some boob kissing to both, maybe have one girl plant her pussy/ ass over his face after he sits down on a couch. You then have the girls share the knob polishing for a bit then work in the sexual positions and I'd do what would make the girls look best. If they have great tits and butts then lots of cowgirl and reverse maybe doggie and spoon. The positions would be the same and the actions I've described are mostly what's being done now save for the opening bit of g/g play. That's not done as much in most g/g porn save for Viv Thomas. I would look for a good 30 minute scene maybe 40 minutes with extra footage of this and I would keep the edited footage for my extras so we could see the bits that were cut out and see if they would have made the scene better. Thanks for the thread.

myk
Member

367 Posts
10/02
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 6:48PM
Personally, I like enough of a setup/story to know _why_ the people are having sex. A bad interview with a boring actress tells me that its for money, not an incredible turn-on. Just enough setup that you can believe that they're fucking for fun rather than cash.

Myk

Lost Horizon
Deactivated User

675 Posts
6/05
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 6:53PM
There is really only a small set of things that one human body (or a number of human bodies) can do sexually to another human body (or several other human bodies).

So porn (whether gonzo or not) is always going to tend towards repetitiveness.

The only thing that never becomes boring is physical beauty.
People may perhaps tire of particular beauties - but no one has ever tired of beauty itself.

Cast the most beautiful women you can find and shoot them so that they look as beautiful as possible - and I for one won't mind if they are just going through the same old porn routines.

dac
David Aaron Clark

Just another WKW wannabe
574 Posts
2/04
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 7:30PM
As much as we're not on the same page in some respects, Gunzo, you have quite astutely put your finger on the biggest problem facing any porn director today who aspires to do something besides hack it out ... in my case, I find that even the male performers who are close friends walk onto my set these days with exactly the attitude you describe, & temporarily re-educating them in the brief space of time allowed for shooting in this era of performers booking two scenes a day is quite the task, to say the least!
 
dac
David Aaron Clark

Just another WKW wannabe
574 Posts
2/04
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 7:36PM
I think Masamune has the most canny & wise response to Quaze's brave unleashing of the fan id here ... everybody else is mired in complaining about either the overabundance of product (& which of us here in the Valley will be the first to volunteer to be part of the solution as opposed to the problem in that respect, LOL) or descending into a litany of their own fetishes that they feel aren't being served well enough ...

The problem as I see it, Quaze, is that to make transcendant, original porn, you do have to dive deep into the psychology of the scene & identify with the performers even as we shoot them, but as you & I well know, too much of that leads to .... ah, would numbed depressiveness describe it????

Edited by - dac on 3/13/2006 10:39:12 PM

Hardware All-Star Supporter
All-Star Member

Your other left
14594 Posts
3/02
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 10:27PM
Sigh...

Edited by - hardware on 3/13/2006 10:32:44 PM

dac
David Aaron Clark

Just another WKW wannabe
574 Posts
2/04
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 10:42PM
Apologies, missed Steph & Picman's post s-- don't know that they were up when I first replied -- they made the same good point -- it's about capturing lightning -- real, uncliched sparks that transcend the acts in question. Emotionally stunted & uncreative directors tend to only go the Meatholes route to achieve that, but that shit quickly turned into self-parody --- when every director is a wannabe Macho Dick Nazi, the performers quickly build up shells that allow them to play whatever silly, childish game they're being paid to participate in ...

LSBReviews
Member

272 Posts
1/05
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 10:49PM
A brief/simple storyline to each scene. I personally enjoy the theme of girls having sex as a means to an end, i.e. girl has sex to stay out of jail, girl has sex to get a promotion, girl has sex to pay off a debt, etc.

Some new dudes.

I'd like to see more girls having sex with some sexy clothing still on. I love watching a girl getting fucked with her panties still on and pulled to the side, or when fishnet stockings are ripped open at the crotch.

I'm tired of seeing guys jacking off before they cum, I much rather see the girl bring the guy to orgasm.

After a cumshot, the guy should either briefly receive more oral sex from the girl, or briefly fuck her some more.

Lenny

Hardware All-Star Supporter
All-Star Member

Your other left
14594 Posts
3/02
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 11:01PM
Thank you. I was trying to find a way to express this when writing my last post but ended up abandoning the attempt because I was already juggling too many factors.

Once a performer feels she has to 'go away' to get through a scene then no amount of setup or fetishistic behavior can save it, IMO.

Mike Quasar
Zero Tolerance

Reluctant pornographer
1765 Posts
7/01
Posted - Mar 14 2006 : 12:19AM
I fear that the number of male and female talent who genuinely want to fuck each other may not be enough to complete one movie :(

The problem is twofold - I need to shoot top guys who I know will always deliver the goods (Scott nails, Mick Blue, Mark Wood, Mark Davis etc) New girls have no idea who anyone is yet so they can't tell me who they want to work with out of that group and established girls often choose completely useless male performers if given the chance. I recently attempted to shoot a very popular actress for what I believe would have been her second anal scene ever. The only hitch was that she wanted to pick the guy. No problem I thought. She's gonna pick a guy that she's really into. Turns out this guy was incapable of achieving anything resembling an erection and I scrapped the whole day. This has happened to me on several other occasions when I booked a guy based on the recommendation of the girl.

The guy will, with rare exception, fuck anything female that you put in front of him but there are only a handful of girls who actually enjoy what they do, a somewhat larger handful who can act like they enjoy what they do and the rest that repeat the same moan sequence and facial expressions for 30 minutes until the scene is over.

It's tough to find chemistry among strangers. When you do, it is indeed like catching lightning in a bottle as DAC said.

Good suggestions from all. I appreciate the perspective.

yyyyYYYYYYyyyy
Member

87 Posts
10/05
Posted - Mar 14 2006 : 12:35AM


BigBobXXX said:
Another problem with this is that, over time, I have become conditioned to avoid single-artist titles because they are usually inferior compilations.

-Kelly- said:
However, outside of this what we mostly have is the Male Performer/Director as star. The girls in his film are interchangeable; he's the one constant. The girl, of course, is always the true star. However, on the all-sex market most of the girls aren't really presented as stars: they're a great bubble butt or a great set of breasts.


Hey thanks for responding. Yes, you two are correct, these things are true...for porn in the USA. Like most people here, I grew up with American made porn, but about a year ago I started watching JAV and it's already spoiled me in a big way, specifically on this issue of single artist vs. multi-artist titles. I think that the depth, breadth and quality of viewer and performer engagement (both sensorial & psychological) that results from a 2hr+ movie can't be duplicated in 1, 2 or even 3 scenes.

I'm really looking forward to Natsumi Yoshioka's upcoming 4 hour movie- it'll be like going to one of those marathon Springsteen shows!

Look here at the 25 titles by Natsumi Yoshioka. In 20 of them she is the sole performer, while in only 5 she shares billing. The multi-actress titles are not as popular because they are viewed as inferior compilations. Upside-down to how it is in the US (okay, everyone act like they are surprised) and all I can say about it - and about the mosaic, and all the myriad things I love about JAV that make it so interesting to watch - is that it's another one of those East/West conundrums and let's leave it at that!

payday
Member

damn
311 Posts
7/05
Posted - Mar 14 2006 : 1:15AM
Im digging this. Kind of like Pulp Fiction
payday
Member

damn
311 Posts
7/05
Posted - Mar 14 2006 : 1:40AM
I'm guessing that's August, LOL.


Quickie or B-roll scenes. In Service Animals 20 christian is still hard after his scene with Karina Kay and Sunny and gets a blow job outside. No make up, no plan, just a cool spontaneous moment. It loses the neatly packaged feel that Zero Tolerance movies usually have but it's a change of pace.

Lap Dances!! Sure we get teases and oral, but not enough ass jiggling and slutty stripper moves. If the girl looks like the typical ripper girl have her rub her rotund ass cheeks all up in the studs face. NO TOUCHING..Unless it's in Canada

Take a page out of Spice Clips/Spice Hotel. Have the girl jerk off before a scene. Kind of prepping the viewer, talking to him...letting them know what she is all about before she gets bombarded with dick. The starlets I enjoy the most(Sativa Rose, Karina Kay, Nadia Styles) grabbed my attention from there non-fuck performances and convos from BTS and things of that nature. I like my porn being real personable, it's condusive to getting more passion/emotion out of me. Rather than: fade in..girl strips...sucks..gets fucked..cumshot...fade out

And don't be afraid to dress the girls up in "normal people" clothes. Clears heals and neon green fishnets are cool and all but give me something I can use!! My ex used to wear these tight gym shorts and a bball jersey and she looked hot as fuck. I could just tear her clothes off and fuck her something terrible..


Anyways I rambled off for waaay too long... I need to finish film school so I can come to porn valley and make some porno

Hardware All-Star Supporter
All-Star Member

Your other left
14594 Posts
3/02
Posted - Mar 14 2006 : 2:14AM
Speelie used to talk about how Nacho would gather a cast together and party for a few days before the shoot. This gave everybody a chance to get to know each other and, according to him, gave the scenes a much better feel. Maybe you should give it a try.

As for letting the girl pick the guy, why not do it on condition she pays the kill fee if he can't perform? That might improve the chance she'll pick a reliable performer.

 
Bob All-Star Supporter
All-Star Member

5516 Posts
3/03
Posted - Mar 14 2006 : 3:00AM
I read somewhere about a writer who stopped writing short stories in favor of novels when he realized that he was using up too many of his good ideas too quickly.

Vignette porn is hard to execute well, but when it is done well the payoff in eroticism is huge. I expect it requires a lot of time and effort just to write new and interesting set-ups, let alone bring them off in front of the camera.

RandomPrecision
Senior Member

Enjoy!
8175 Posts
3/06
Posted - Mar 14 2006 : 4:23AM
OK.....here are some of my thoughts on why porn tends to get a bit tired over time.

1. As you said, after a while, it's all the same. One thing I noticed and really kills the mood for me sometimes is that most of the women say very little and what they do say seems forced and rehearsed. Most of the women I'm attracted to in real life have a personality. I'm not saying porn girls don't have a personality....just that, for whatever reason, they rarely either get a chance to display it or it's just seen as not being an appropriate thing for them to have one. I dunno. I see so many porn flicks that are just.....silence, other than moaning.

2. Enthusiasm. Just plain old sex can be exciting but it has to be authentic. If it's all an act, that comes through in the finished product. Obviously, there's not much of a way for the male talent to fake enthusiasm or you just wouldn't have a scene. But often, I feel that the females are just going through the motions and are not really into most of what they're doing. This seems to be most obvious if there's any lesbian action going on. You'll see the girls doing a lot of tongue wagging but the tongue rarely ever makes contact with any part of the other girl's body. This just doesn't cut it.

3. Kissing/passion. There are very few things more erotic than a good kiss. Whether it's two women kissing or a male and female kissing, most people kiss when they have sex. It's a rarity to see any kissing at all in a hardcore porn flick. This kind of ties into enthusiasm. If the girls can't convince me that they're really enjoying themselves, I simply can't enjoy the scene, no matter how much the male star may be enjoying himself. I feel that porn producers need to work on the female talent area of their productions. After all, this is what every male porn consumer paid to see - the women.

And on a related note, it probably wouldn't hurt to have more male stars that the women are actually attracted to. A woman can only go so far in making you believe she's attracted to a guy if she really isn't.

4. The fisheye lenses are overdone. True, wide angle is usually more appealing than extended scenes of closeups of genitals and I really liked the effect in the beginning when they first started using ultrawide fisheye lenses but it makes everything look a bit strange and less imediate. Wide angle lenses can be great in some instances but many pornographers seem to just run around with them constantly on the camera and it gets tiring after a while. Barrell distortion ruins the sense of reality.

General commentary. I don't necessarily think cum shots should be a thing of the past. They're always a crowd pleaser when both the guy and the girl are into it and they're well shot. It's just that it's probably very difficult to shoot them well (just due to their very nature).

Anal is always great. The more the merrier. However, obviously, not every female porn star really digs it. I would suggest that if you want to do a strong anal scene and the girls you're considering aren't really into it, keep looking. As I said, enthusiasm is more important than looks (to this viewer, anyway). If she looks great but shies away from a cum shot or won't touch a cock that's been in her ass, what's the point?

Also, I think things have gotten to the point to where editing needs to be more heavily used. There seems to be too many flicks that focus too much on capturing every solitary second. How long can we watch the same two people screwing and maintain our arousal? Multiple angles can break the monotony. POV, I find, is generally superior to other angles because it does give the viewer a sense of participation. I don't think it's overdone. Just needs to be refined a bit and mixed with other angles more often.

In closing, no substitute for good male AND female talent. There are a few females (who I can't think of their names at the moment) who seem to know exactly what turns a man on. If you work in the business, you probably know who they are. Some of them might not be great looking but as I said, there are things that are more important than supermodel looks. I'd much rather see a so so girl that knows how to give a good blowjob without having to be told how than a girl who looks fantastic but couldn't turn a man on with anything other than her looks to save her life.

And additionally, I actually prefer to see women who look more like the women that I know in my day to day life and less like someone's idea of perfection. We all have different ideas as to what perfection is so it's not a goal you can achieve anyway. I find ordinary women MUCH more attractive and sexy than many of the women I see in porn. Women don't have to have HUGE breasts in order to be attractive and desireable. I actually prefer a kind of wholesome look to a slutty one (as long as underneath, she knows what she's doing).

I don't think pornographers are necessarily doing everything wrong. They just need to be more observant as to what works (and sells) and what doesn't. Obviously, people are still buying porn so they're doing more right than they're doing wrong.

steelbill
Senior Member

1456 Posts
9/03
Posted - Mar 14 2006 : 10:27AM
Quase said.....The guy will, with rare exception, fuck anything female that you put in front of him but there are only a handful of girls who actually enjoy what they do, a somewhat larger handful who can act like they enjoy what they do and the rest that repeat the same moan sequence and facial expressions for 30 minutes until the scene is over.

This is a key, and we all see the hot genuine girl. Call is star quality. I think Gonzo could go a couple of ways. One is to take your favorite "Hot" performer who likes what she does and put her thru the paces with some give and take. Do 6 scenes in a video, 3 what the guys and girls want to do to her, and 3 scenes that she wants to do to them. I like the "Gauntlet" idea also, where your feature girl has no idea whats thru the next door, and its a one day shoot. Here's another idea for Gonzo....put 3 girls in the exact same scene with 3 guys, and have the guys pick the winner to come back for another go round. Finially, in the old days there were scenes where the stars were in a unique setting, like Tianna and Heather Lere in a dumpster, or Leslie Bovee taking on 3 guys covered in oil in the engine room of a freighter. I miss the tension of a scene in gonzo....where, say Tory Lane teases 4 guys chained up in jail, and they escape and turn the tables on her.....or the girl just finishes her scene and another follow up scene happens..like she does 2 guys, and a third guy that doesn't appear to be planned happens. The focus is on the woman as the porno star, for sure. For the most part, the girls are just who they are. The hot star that can act a bit might be the key, where she looks into the camera and says she needs 5 orgasims a day, and then we see how she goes about doing it. So, I'd say gonzo should focus on one feature girl at a time with wild settings and other performers as the supporting cast...and add the "extra" ideas, like she's in a situation of doing 3 guys in one room, and 3 girls in another room at the same time switching back an forth.

wes
Member

home
86 Posts
11/04
Posted - Mar 14 2006 : 12:44PM
I have seen one of the movies you shot for zero tolerance "tag teamed 3" and I like the way the camera angles was shot during the dp sex and I have seen several of your other movies and I like the way you shoot the sex scenes..

You said that you like to try out new ideas, so here is one. I was wondering if you can create an hardcore all-girl strapon double penetration movie, similar format to "tag teamed", I said "hardcore" meaning that this movie should be concentrate mainly on the strapon sex and not any softcore stuff like cunngilingus. I would like to see a lesbian strapon double penetration movie as I do not think there is any movie that is dedicated to strapon double penetration on the market yet.

Rey de Azulejos
Member

San Pornando Valley
153 Posts
12/05
Posted - Mar 14 2006 : 4:33PM
Cheating wife stuff has been awesome for me as of late... Just something so erotic about watching a woman break her marriage vows to fufill lust................ mmmmm hah.

"White Wife, Black Cock" from Smash
"Desperate Housewhores" from Hustler (number one is the best for me)
"Desperate Wives and Daughters" on...... Evasive Angles or TTB?

I dug multiple movies from these series.

picman
Senior Member

Nothing says I love you so much as a tongue in the ass.
2884 Posts
1/03
Posted - Mar 14 2006 : 9:57PM
I can see where you would have a problem with my suggestion, but it's still worth exploring a little. If you're shooting an established girl, and have a number of specific male performers available, you could give her a choice from that list. You could also poll the guys, who might actually have a preference themselves. The newbies present a different problem, but I think an even easier one to solve. Some guys are great with new chicks. Mark Davis comes to mind immediately. If you're shooting a girl just off the bus, do you throw her in with Chris Charming or Mark? I wouldn't have to think twice about that. just not being haphazard about things and caring enough to make logical decisions that could pay off with good scenes.
I find it interesting that this thread was started by a director, and only one other director has seen fit to comment. More of their bretheren should be giving some thought to breaking out of their comfortable boxes. I know that from a business perspective there's really no incentive. Videos sell based on the girls featured and the sex acts they perform. Spending more time and money isn't likely to boost sales, so really we're just talking about quality for quality's sake. I think that's noble and justification alone, but whoever signs the checks probably feels differently.
Mike Quasar
Zero Tolerance

Reluctant pornographer
1765 Posts
7/01
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 1:37AM
"I think that's noble and justification alone, but whoever signs the checks probably feels differently."

Actually, in my case, the guy who signs the checks is the one who encouraged me to start this thread. ZT obviously wants to remain a highly succesful company and that means investing our money, time and energy into whatever can set us apart if only slightly from everyone else. You guys have provided some invaluable info and we had a production meeting today regarding this thread and the suggestions you have put forth.

As far as other Directors not chiming in, I never expected them to. Why would they show their hand to the competition? It doesn't necessarily mean that they don't care about improvment. Manuel Ferrara has already started to break the mold with his "Mind Fuck" movie. Brandon has always been very creative. The stuff that Bishop has done for Smash is extremely creative. The "White Wife, Black Cock" stuff is really clever and well done. We tried very hard to create a somewhat different paradigm with our "girlvana" movie.

The bottom line is this: yeah, we can keep doing exactly what we've been doing and sell a ton of product for the forseeable future but at some point it becomes redundant and stale ( some of it has already!!) You can't put a price on fan input. Like I said earlier, our meeting today really re-energized me and I think you'll be seeing some new and cool stuff from us soon.

That being said, don't stop with the great suggestions. If this thread ends up as long as the "Teagan WOW" thread, I'll be very happy :) The great thing is that Directors from every company can read this thread and up their game based on your suggestions. Everyone's a winner.

Edited by - Mike Quasar on 3/15/2006 8:46:31 AM

M vanHouten
Member

183 Posts
3/04
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 1:38PM
Oh no! Is this who I think it is? Are you talking about August?
Hedomaster
New Member

Compton
1 Posts
3/06
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 1:51PM
Although I am new to this board as far as posting, I have been reading it for some time. I agree with Quasar that things do get boring after the first 4000 times being done.

The envelope needs to be pushed in order to be different without hurting in degarding woman, and having the fuzz on your tail. My personal view on porn is as long as the girls are hot and dressed sexy, keep it coming. There is only so many ways you can twist a girls body. And you guys at ZT dress those girls amazing..keep it up!

Born from a bukkake

CaptainSweden
Member

My lobster!
146 Posts
6/04
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 3:59PM
I could make a whole list of what I would wanna see, but I doubt people would wanna read it. Besides, it could be a long thread to keep up with if everybody were to post their hopes and wishes.

But basically, it seems to me that everybody's trying to push the limits. Most swallowed loads, most facials, triple penetrations and A2M's. Fetish clothes and girls getting gagged.

I would be so happy to see one girl with one guy. The girl in her jeans and a top, dolled up as if she were going out on a saturday night. The guy sits on his sofa with the girl on her knees giving him Mynx-head.
Let's call it the girlfriend-scenario. (Hmm, did I just describe bigmouthfuls.com?) A hot girl and a hot guy who seems to be into eachother and enjoy what they do. Some hot angles and that's all you need. I know that some won't agree, porn should be a fantasy. But since there's hardly anywhere left to go, my fantasy would be to see normal sex.

Plus I'm still waiting for some good all girl POV, Belladonna are you reading this?

Bob All-Star Supporter
All-Star Member

5516 Posts
3/03
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 6:41PM
I like videos devoted to one girl.

I like costumes.

I like vignettes.

I'd like to see a video in which Courtney Cummz plays a nurse, a corporate lawyer, a French Maid, a librarian, a sex slave, a construction worker, a babysitter, a professional dominatrix, a concert violinist (think Mozart + mini-orgy), etc.

Courtney picks the guys and the gals.

All roads lead to Rome; all these set-ups would lead to hot, sweaty, nasty sex.

And you've got Courtney under contract, Quaze.

Mike Quasar
Zero Tolerance

Reluctant pornographer
1765 Posts
7/01
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 7:23PM
Wait until you see Courtney's Interactive movie. You can indeed see her as a nurse and a sex slave as well as a teacher and a schoolgirl. (the concert violinist just wasn't feasible :)

Bob All-Star Supporter
All-Star Member

5516 Posts
3/03
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 7:44PM
Quaze,

I'll buy 10 copies in case the first 9 wear out.

When's the street date?

P.S. -- Maybe you can shoot the musician scenario for Interactive Courtney #2. Violin lessons might break the budget, but Courtney would be a natural on the flute.

Mike Quasar
Zero Tolerance

Reluctant pornographer
1765 Posts
7/01
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 9:00PM
It hasn't been officially added to our release schedule yet because we're still working out a few of the kinks but we're hoping for the beginning of April.
I finished up the post production last month and it's in the testing phase at the moment.BTW, it has all real pop shots, not the CGI kind found in other interactive titles.

Edited by - Mike Quasar on 3/15/2006 9:02:05 PM

tritone
Deactivated User

1009 Posts
4/03
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 10:11PM
Mike Quasar,

I'm with BigBobxxx on this one. "Formula", as long as it contains good camerwork & technical aspects, is good . You don't need to get fancy or go overboard.

It is the girl that counts. The talent. As long as you keep bringing in new girls, or old girls in different outfits/styles, etc, you are winning.

The perfect example is Brandon Iron's recent 50 to 1 series. Generally the same location, the same sexual positions, etc. But all different girls with varying personalities and sexual energies. That is what keeps people coming back. They see this girls' face and wonder what she looks like with a dick in her mouth & staring into the camera. They wonder how her ass looks in POV doggie, etc... And they know they are going to see this because the formula will not change.

I know this is not exactly what you want to hear because doing the same formula does not excite you as a director. But your consistency and attention to detail is what keeps us watching.


Edited by - tritone on 3/15/2006 10:12:23 PM

Edited by - tritone on 3/15/2006 10:13:23 PM

Mike Quasar
Zero Tolerance

Reluctant pornographer
1765 Posts
7/01
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 10:15PM
Good point. I'm suggesting that we reinvent the wheel and the more I read this thread the more I think that we shouldn't fix what isn't broke. That being said, I definitely want to break with that formula on some releases and we've talked about one or two new series that I think will be really cool.
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