Let me take two guinnea pigs: A and B. Both visit an adult dvd vendor page and spot a dvd with cute, young, new let-me-call-her Judy on the cover spreading her legs. Won over by that cover both order and consequently watch the tape. It turns out Judy has just turned 18 and is getting the standart treatment of one to one bj-vaginal-anal-facial. While giving heqd she gags a bit and during the anal she has some problems fitting all the cock-meat offered. Just average
for a young not too porn-set experienced girl.

After watching the tape, A says: Damn, what a poor little thing. What pimp of a boyfriend talked her into doing that scene! They will abuse her in the biz, drug her and churn her out like nothing. Poor girl! She will never be able to find a caring husband, have kids and a quiet life anymore.

B, after watching that same tape, says: Damn is she hot. Hell, I am glad that young slut decided to join the biz. Hopefully RLD gets her for a gangbang while she is still fresh. Getting the right anal exposure she sure has star quality. Go anal, Judy, go!

Visiting the same adult dvd site again the next day, A spots Judy on another boxcover again but turns his head in disdain. He orders another tape instead. B spots her too, grins and remember all the joy he had watching her but passes that one because she does not do anal. This time he orders another tape with 3 new faces on it.

Me, I respect B for his honesty and I respect the girls he watches for all they do to please their dvd-consumers.

Druber

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I like your posts... I like reading your point of view, and I enjoy your participation in this forum... but the topic of this thread is fucking rediculous.

Cubesnake makes some excellent points in your quote above, and in my opinion, these performers (both men and women) really do give alot of themselves when they make these movies. Admittedly, I enjoy watching those who give the MOST, and I'll gladly pay for the opportunity, but that doesn't mean these people don't deserve as much respect and legitimacy for what they do as you or I--they probably deserve more.

I saw some things, and met some people at this year's expo that really pissed me off. These girls are not pieces of meat, and I saw several "fans" who acted like they were, with a fair amount of pretentious groping and posturing that clearly made many of the girls uncomfortable and no doubt further contributed to their already low self-esteem. Like you say, Druber, they perform a service for us, and we love to watch them, but dammit all to hell. They deserve more respect than they often get, and I truly do thank them for putting up with the minority of porn fans who are only looking to "squeeze their piece of meat" so that fans like me get the opportunity to meet them--talk to them, and show my appreciation for their performances in what I hope is a respectful way.

Don't get me wrong. I don't assume you are one of these kinds of people. In fact, I'm pretty sure that you aren't. It's just that the way you talk sometimes tends to contribute to this disreputable and shameful reputation that these wonderful girls get working in the business. Like Cubesnake says, let's show some respect. I love these girls. They give up a lot for our benefit, and while yes, they get paid for it, they also appreciate their fans. And if you're a fan, the way you talk often doesn't make sense to me.

You or others can come back and say that I really don't care about these people... or that I'm using them just like everyone else, to get off. They get paid, so why should I care? That might be your opinion, but mine is that these girls deserve some respect, and it upsets me greatly when I see the very fans they love betraying them like this. Are porn girls human beings? What an offensive and rediculous question.

Mike L.

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Again, don't get me wrong. You started this thread, and I'm just responding with my opinion. This is not a judgement against you--as I really do enjoy your participation in this forum, even though we don't often agree. Thanks for this further explanation. Although I think my previous posts points are still valid, I see better now where you're coming from.

Mike L.

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Druber

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Fair enough, and thanks for your great post. I apologize for my strong reaction. It was mostly a reaction to your choice of words and phrasology rather than your actual point of view. In truth, sometimes with you it's easy to get confused about your point of view... :) Add to that my having watched a couple of damn rude people in Vegas.

I guess I'm still a bit of a slave to the "guilt culture" as you call it. I think it's healthy to have a little bit of concern for these girls. Porn isn't like anything else out there. The ultimate goal is to show absolute reality. Real orgasms, real cumshots... real slaps... real choking... real deepthroat... real anal... real dap, etc. Anything less leaves the fans feeling cheated, disappointed and even outraged. Although I'm all for watching all these things (accept perhaps authentic choking and dap), I still think there needs to be extra care taken in its production. Not so much a paternal care.... but more a care in ensuring that the issue of consent is in no way compromised. I don't think there's anything wrong with my point of view either...

Mike L.

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Now, I think we should start up a new poll titled:

Is Druber a human being?

Edited by - aybesea on 1/14/2003 2:25:15 PM

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Max Booty
"If something's hard to do, then its not worth doing."

Edited by - Maximum Booty on 1/14/2003 7:27:08 PM

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A few months ago, Druber, shortly after I discovered ADT, you and I were involved in a similar discussion in another thread (called "what's a raincoater?"). Here's what you wrote back then:

Yes, Druber, most porn fans do genuinely care about porn stars. When Tricia Devereaux tested positive for the AIDS virus, people genuinely cared. She wasn't just a "piece of fuck meat easily replaced by another one." When Megan Leigh took her own life, people genuinely cared. The response among porn fans wasn't "So what, just bring on the next piece of fuck meat."

But caring about a female porn talent doesn't have to mean caring about her in the same way that her father would. And just because a porn fan doesn't care to that extent doesn't make him hypocritical or self-righteous or dishonest. Similarly, a female porn talent might genuinely care about her fans, but not nearly to the extent that she cares about her son or daughter.

Druber, here's what seems to underlie your point of view:

#1 - You think that porn is inherently evil.
#2 - You think that porn is inherently degrading to women.
#3 - You think that porn fans can't genuinely respect female porn talent because of #1 and #2.

Not everyone agrees with #1. Even among people who do agree with #1, not all of those will agree with #2 (for instance, many people believe that robbing banks is evil, but that the bank robber doesn't "degrade" himself in doing it).

Additionally, Druber, sexism underlies your point of view. Rarely if ever do I hear you speak of the male talent in such disparaging terms. It's the same old stinking double standard that simply refuses to die. Rocco Siffredi is a hero to be looked up to, but Bella Donna is merely a slut. Give me a fucking break!

Druber, still another thing that underlies your point of view is a subtle puritanical view of sex. By this I mean that, deep down, you seem to think that sex is inherently evil and not worthy of respect in its own right. And because in porn you can actually see the women engaging in it, you feel that it's impossible to really respect them. In other words, it's the old guilt by association trap.

Think about this, Druber, you probably pass by women on the street almost every day. There are many mainstream female celebrities that you're aware of. You have actually known personally many women throughout your life. Well, many of these women (that you've known and not known) have engaged in many of the same sex acts (oral, vag, anal) behind closed doors that female porn stars do in front of the camera. But because you can't see these "regular" women engaging in sex, you have respect for them but not for female porn stars, whose work in front of the camera provides you pleasure and enriches your life sexually. Here's where I would point out some of your hypocrisy, Druber.

I throw out this challege to you, Druber. If you really feel that porn is bad and the women who work in it are degraded and not worthy of your respect, then be consistent with your views and stop being a consumer of pornography. Stop buying porn, throw out or sell your porn collection, stop coming to and posting on ADT, and cut off all possible involvement with the porn industry. Furthermore, join a movement and actively lobby to ban porn. All of these actions would be far more consistent with your views, than continuing to masturbate to pornography while holding a dim view of the female porn talent at the same time. I am absolutely sick to my stomach with so-called porn fans who do that.

Pontus

Edited by - Pontus Maximus on 1/14/2003 2:35:09 PM

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1. Honest/dishonest: Please read the consumer A/consumer B example carfully again. Honesty/Dishonesty is based on that.
Honest is not who agrees with me, but who accepts that his consumer habbits fuel things that are not 100% PC.

2. Now I regret that I did not include my Daniella Rush example again: I already wrote it in the thread you probabely refer to, but here it is again. I do really feel sorry about Daniellas accident. And I DO CARE - if you read ATD and rame carefully you read about it.

3. Sexism: You hardly ever see me write about male porn talent. And certainly you dont see me call Rocco a hero. I am simply not interested in more about male talent than their cock size, ability to keep wood and shoot well.
3.b) Slut: I thought this is a porn consumer dicussion group and porn consumers understand and (sometimes) use porn language they hear in the films they watch. Seems you start to proof me wrong.

4. Porn is bad and degrading: NO. Porn is a product filmed on a set full of consenting adults. They perform to a high degree what the market asks for and therefore sells. And they get payed for it, in-directly by us, the consumers. Thus, me, I do rally for that kind of sex I wanna see on screan.

Druber

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1. weekly testing for std
2. weekly review by a licensed psychiatrist, and NOT one that's been bought off by the industry
3. minimum age of 21

Now three might be controversial, as I do enjoy the Bring
em Young series, but that's because the girls are fresh faces. I'd be more comfortable watching a fresh 21 or 22 year old, instead of a fresh 18 or 19 year old, but unfortunately it's difficult to find a series with fresh girls, who aren't also teens.

I'd LOVE to see Anabolic do a "Bring'em Fresh" series, with new performers who are in the 20s and 30s.

Cyberchicken

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Druber - I hope that you're just chronically bad at conveying your thoughts. I think that's what it is, at least that's what I'm believing as I've read your various posts.

I understand parts of your point of view. Sometimes when I'm TOO close to a lot of my friends in the business, I can't truly enjoy one of their scenes, not because I feel bad for them, but because I can no longer see them as a fantasy.
I knew Belladonna pretty well. She's no longer a fantasy to me. She's incredibly f***ing sexy to me, but not an unattainable fantasy. And sometimes the longing for someone that you know you can't have is a good thing.

However, Druber, here is my biggest problem with your posts:
If you don't care about how the girl feels after the scene is done, and no one else does either, then if everyone just pushes all these new girls PAST their limits, then these new girls are going to be scared away from ever doing a second scene for any company. Newer girls might ask girls in the business who to work for. I tell almost every girl I meet to NEVER work for Max Hardcore, Extreme, etc. Now, if all porn companies acted like they didn't care about the girls, then I'd tell girls to never do any porn. Not because porn is bad. It isn't. But because I take care of the people who are my family and I don't want them walking into a situation they might regret.

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'Yes, I wanna watch well presented fuckmeat.'

Soulless.

I hope it brings you a little happiness Druber, because you could do with some.

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ML commented on pornstars and "their already low self-esteem." In an otherwise great post, I think this was the only remark off-point. I don't think it should be an automatic assumption that a sex worker has low self-esteem. The relation between one's sexuality and self-esteem is too complex to generalize. Some sex workers get into the biz because of a robust self-love. The same uninvited groping that makes one woman feel worthless can boost another's ego.

Mike also said, "Porn isn't like anything else out there." I'd like to counter that by reminding us that porn isn't the only medium where people allow others into their intimate body space for viewer pleasure. I submit that professional athletes allow bodily invasion that is more intimate on a physical level because they willingly allow others to give them extreme pain. A pornstar has the choice of saying "I don't do gag scenes or anal because they hurt." A rugby player cannot choose his profession without choosing pain as a job requirement. Hmm...maybe I shouldn't say "more" or "less" intimate. It's intimacy of a different kind, but just as invasive. And it seems to me that sucking a cock fresh out of someone's ass is, spiritually, a different kind of intimacy than two 300 pound men who willingly run at top speed into each other.

The same point can be made about action movie stars and stunt people. Although their jobs create fiction, the "alternate reality" they create also requires exposure of their body to broken bones and other injuries. All for our viewing pleasure. And if Jackie Chan was faking it, we wouldn't watch him so much.

To me, I feel more than respect for sex performers of every kind, from nude models to prostitutes to pornstars. My feelings are more akin to worship. Sex is holy to me, and sex workers are kind of like priests, explaining to the masses the message of the Goddess. Now, before you think I'm loca, I fully realize that the fantasies I have are projections of my own desires onto the people onscreen. I know that, ultimately, they aren't the source of my feelings, but that I am.

The enemy of sexually powerful women is shame. The enemy of sexually powerful men is aggression.

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The enemy of sexually powerful women is shame. The enemy of sexually powerful men is aggression.

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Also, the fact that it's "filmed on a set" has little bearing on the question of degradation - either in terms of what's portrayed or how the actors are treated. That's just a technical consideration, it has nothing to do with content or intention. Similarly, even if the people involved are all consenting adults (and that's an assumption that isn't necessarily true - look at Linda Lovelace), that also doesn't alter what's being shown. The movie could show scenes of horrific torture and depravity, even though the actors laugh and have a good time behind the camera. Does that make the the finished product a happy one?

Your main point about not caring what the actors go through, and being concerned only with what's on the screen, is interesting. Most of the time I don't think about the actors at all - the better the film is, the more I'm in the virtual world.

The problem with SOME porn, however, is the gonzo genre in general, and, to a much lesser degree but still something that I'm actually aware of to an extent that I am NOT in almost any mainstream movie, the fact that most adult performers are bad actors. With gonzo, the dividing line between reality and fiction is obviously blurred. It's never entirely clear if the people are just playing a role or reacting sincerely to what's happening. As an example, in Lex The Impaler 2, I found myself oscillating back and forth in terms of whether I was uncomfortable with the August Night scene or not. It seemed, about half of the time, as if she wasn't happy being there and may have been in pain / discomfort / fear, and/or coerced. Part of my concern was for what the actress herself might have gone through, part of it was for the "fictional" character (seeing anybody in a situation where they are not enjoying themselves is a turn off). So, that scene I found to walk the line between degrading and okay, as well as between being just on screen and having me think about the behind the scenes scenario.

Even in non-gonzo fare, the nature of porn is such that what we see being depicted actually IS happening. In mainstream movies, the actors are not actually shot, stabbed, raped, mugged, etc. But in porn, the peformers really ARE being "subjected" to the various sexual gymnastics that we see. So, it's only natural, especially if they're obviously not stellar actors in other respects, to wonder if their reactions are real or just portrayed.

I have a hard time separating fantasy from reality at the same time that I consider degradation - mainly because I don't enjoy seeing women (or men) doing things that they don't appear to enjoy in any sense. (Even if it's part of the context of the thing - like in a mainstream horror or thriller - I may enjoy the movie, and appreciate the scene for what it portrays, but it does still bother me on some level.) While "real" degradation may be more objectionable to me than "fantasy" degradation, that's a matter of degree and I don't enjoy either.

So, to summarize my answer to the main question. Should adult performers be treated purely as sexual objects when viewing one of their movies? If it's obviously fiction and role-playing, then I'd say yes. Just as I'd say that the horror movie monster should be considered purely as a "monster object" rather than a guy in hot and uncomfortable makeup and a latex suit.

But is it all right to mistreat performers just so long as they excite you on screen? Absolutely not. Performers *are* people, just as real as the rest of us. If putting together a highly arousing movie comes at the price of somebody's discomfort, I'd say it's not worth it. I'd get much more satisfaction out of stopping the bad behind the scenes than I would watching the good on the screen.

Given that something has already been made, and nothing "onscreen" is unsettling (just my awareness that unsettling things happend behind the camera) - would that affect me watching and enjoying the movie "as movie"? In general, probably not.

As to the theoretical example of the video store rental and the woman who doesn't seem to be enjoying herself. The question of whether she was "pimped" into the movie or not is almost incidental to why anybody would enjoy watching somebody not deriving enjoyment in the first place. It shouldn't matter whether it was the performer not liking what was happening or the character. Neither one liked it. Unless it was within the context of a scene in which the performer/character wasn't supposed to like it for some thematic purpose - it was badly done. Unless it was meant for the segment of the pornographers' audience who get turned on by depictions of misogynism - hopefully only a small minority, with most enjoying watching healthy sexual interaction.

Edited by - Mythsong on 1/15/2003 1:15:54 AM

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The
about my kind of <caring> evolves around my clear distinction between me as a consumer and the industry providing me with new dvds/films to watch.
I am much more interested in the new films than the people (and all the gossip) behind. I am clearly one of those calling to push the limits, because this is my consumer interest (more girls, more fresh faces, more anal etc. - you know it). I see my role in telling you industry people what I would like to watch. Your role, IMHO, as industry basically is maximalizing your profits. Client contact - via ADT and other forums - is one part of it.
Others see this forum more as a meeting place for fans and stars. They hope to get closer to them via ADT, many go to porn conventions and take pictures of themselves standing besides a starlet. I never went to one, I never fell in love with a porn starlet, I fall in love with girls around the corner of my house.
But I am glad all those nice ADT-folks went there and do post these nice pictures. They are fantasy for me, willingly created fantasy to download on my harddisk if I like.

Druber

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Speaking of ´starting a snowball´ :). I´m glad that i haven´t been the only one who ´sees´ it the way i do.
English not being my native language it´s sometimes not easy to find the right words. It´s good that we can discuss threads like this. I read all posts and found some interesting insights. Off course the topic is bound (i guess) to sound offensive ... that doesn´t scare me away ... i read all threads that i find of interest.

I don´t think porn is bad ... i think things change with age. When i was younger i watched porn differently as i watch it today. But then again there wasn´t all that crazy stuff out there like (MAX H., and other EXTREME stuff). It was just people having normal sex. I don´t mean ´normal´ in terms of standard boring sex more like nothing like ´lets see what they will do for money circus kinda act´. I DO think however that i DO have problems that have me stuck with porn but i don´t think those problems affect my judgement of someones views about respect toward other people. I don´t even know if Druber ´only´ used the wrong words or if they are really ment the way he wrote them (but i think he knows what he wrote). Maybe i sometimes care too much and therefore the harder stuff is less appealing too me but that´s just my point of view. I have wondered more than once about a certain ´Gentleman´ and how he gets girls to perform for/with him. Most of them are new and i bet my ass if presented with the more detailed ´job requirements´ they would much rather take a run than proceed with the scene. If you look at their faces during a scene you know that i can not be wrong. And to answer the question that may come up ... i stopped watching/buying/renting this ´Gentlemans´ product when i first saw that !

To Cyberchicken:

I could agree with your requirements although having to visit a licensed psychiatrist (or any 1 for that matter) once a week would drive me nuts But i think it wouldn´t hurt for a couple of people to have a serious conversation with another person.

To aybesea:

Do you really know if girls are not being forced into porn ? We would have to discuss what one considers forcing first. I don´t say that it is the prime directive but i wouldn´t rule it completely out too.

To the adult fair topic:

I´ve only been to a few gatherings which involved one ore more pornstars and what i´ve seen on these ´autograph sessions´ sometimes often made my think about human kind. People often behave like dogs in heat . No wonder ´the talent´ may not like those happenings that much. And those happenings are usually too crowded to get a few minutes alone with you star + being nervous and so on. I once met Monique Covet and wanted to ask her a few things when she told me in a ´not´ too friendly way she was having her brake right now and doesn´t answer questions.

to the ´guilt culture´ phrase

I don´t think I'm a slave to the "guilt culture". I like seeing people have sex. I don´t know why but i think it´s nothing to be ashamed of. If people/performer really enjoy themself during that the better.

I don´t know what to write any more so i say thanks for all your input and see you soon.

cube

Edited by - cubesnake on 1/15/2003 10:13:27 AM

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I didn't mean to give off the impression that I think all porn stars have low self esteem. And perhaps I made a mistake in my phrasing. I do think that many of them do, however, and the point of that portion of my post was to demonstrate the lack of respect for these women that I occasionally was witness to during my trip to Vegas. Some of the stars reacted positively to these advances... some of them didn't. Again, it's an issue of respect. how far to go should be dictated by a respect for the person you are interacting with, not the fantasy image that the individual fan projects on to them. This only has to do with Druber's argument to the degree that I think his language lacks that respect that I talk of. I agree with you though, and you made some excellent points in your post.

Mythsong,

I think that much of your post ventures into the realm of personal taste. I have to agree with Druber in the sense that these girls get paid for performing a service. As long as they are consenting to what they were paid for, there isn't much to say about it. Now, does that mean if YOU think they aren't consenting, or that they are showing signs of discomfort or lack of enjoyment that someone else will interpret it the same way? No. Despite the strong feelings I've expressed in this thread, I think, for the most part, the major porn producers are very conscientious about making sure the performers are at least consentual, and at best totally into it--this is especially true of today's rougher sex--where I think lessons have been learned because of Anabolic's short lived Rough Sex series. At issue in this thread is the question of respect for the talent, and how far we as consumers should go to encourage producers to be conscientious about their product. Your personal taste with regard to what you believe the women enjoy and don't enjoy has very little to do with this. Only the performers can really know when things go to far. All I ask is that the producers react swiftly at signs of distress in a performer--not to stop what's going on necessarily, but to ensure that all is well--and those are the studios I will patronize.

I don't disagree with Druber's point of view. In fact, now more than ever I'm really starting to understand him. I just have issue with the way he expresses it. There's a difference between being overly PC and being respectful. I don't share much of Druber's personal taste in porn, but I believe that's a completely separate topic that is not really relevant to this discussion.

Mike L.

Edited by - MLyons on 1/15/2003 10:24:05 AM

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Excellent post--right on, and your english is just fine. :)

Mike L.

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I do feel compelled to say this: Druber was doing some serious back-peddling and spin control in this thread. He was misrepresenting his true feelings and attitudes regarding the female porn talent. I know because I am well aware of a great many of Druber's previous posts both here at ADT and also at the RAME forum.

MLyons, I probably have more respect for you than almost anybody else at ADT. However, I was somewhat disappointed to see you write:

One other thing that I want to point out is that in my initial post, I was addressing things that Druber has written, not only in this thread, but in other threads as well (and even in other forums). But he was cleverly distancing himself from things he has written repeatedly during the last several months.

BTW, if you think I was hard on Druber in this post, this is nothing compared to what I would have written had he still been available to respond. I was going to let him have it with both barrels.

Pontus

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So, for example, Erik Everhard spent hours at the party discussing his favorite movies (not his own) with a bunch of us, and then one on one with Buttman. There was no condescension, no attitude of, "you are the pathetic losers who watch my movies." And while I singled out Erik, this really did extend to all the guys who involve themselves on this site.

I mention this because, while my following point may be slightly tenuous, I think that people in the industry who are respectful to the fans are also more likely to be respectful to the female talent. I herd from many men in the industry who were greatly concerned that the women they film and/or perform with have fun in the process. And when I spoke with the women who worked with/for these guys, they could privately confirm this. I have to say, it made me feel better about at least a segment of the porn industry, and I think the smarter (and perhaps luckier) actresses try and find work in the most hospitable settings.

I have been deliberately vague in mentioning names, because readers can draw their own conclusions, but here is one concrete example. I brought out my DVD cover to Wet N'Frosty, and got it signed by Phoenix Ray, Katie Morgan, Daisy Chain, Calli Cox, and Bella Donna. Phoenix was busy, and didn't have much time to talk, but the other four, all of whom I encountered separately, all asked me, "Could you tell how much fun we had that weekend?" They were definitely treated as humans, and it showed on the screen.

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I'd highly recommend anybody going to see their favorite stars bring covers for them to sign. There were quite a few times when I commented on scenes that they told me a few stories about filming the scene. Sometimes it was positive stories and sometimes it was a story about how surprised they were that the scene turned out so good since the scene wasn't that fun to make for one reason or another.

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Now it's my turn to do some backpeddling. ;-) Let me clarify, that I absolutely DON'T agree with Druber as he represented himself in the "What's a Raincoater" thread. I think I made that pretty clear in that thread. I was merely commenting on the point of view he finally expressed in this thread.

This is about the extent to which I agree with Druber:

I can be a damn fool sometimes though, and I guess I'm just too much of an optimist to believe that even with Druber's previous posts, threads, and posts on rame and such, I just can't bring myself to believe that he really feels this way:

I feel like I'm dragging this thread off topic with this post, but one more thing... :)

Mike L.

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But, no, Mike, I haven't lost any respect for you. I still hold you in the same high esteem.

Pontus

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The two of them were sitting there on the stage in front of me, looking glum, when I asked them, "Would you guys like to make a video? Jeez, I wish I had a camera!" "I have one," one of them chirped! $500 plus about $100 in toys later, they were "porn girls." Well, not quite, because the tape is not for sale, yet, but I'm thinking about getting model release forms for them to fill out. And I have an outlet should I (we) choose to do it. This will represent a phase change (Dare I say a quantum leap?) for all three of us: They will become porn girls, and I will become another Ed Powers!

Everybody has to start somewhere!

BC

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