All you need to do (and I say this like it's easy when I know nothing about making movies) is to have the guy move out of frame when he pulls out of her ass. We don't know WTF he's doing out of the frame. She could lay there, writhing on the bed (floor, couch, whatever) saying, "I want your cock back in my pussy." And the guy, off camera, can make her beg for it. Meanwhile, he's quickly cleansing himself. He moves back into the frame, flips her into another position and fucks her pussy. Would that work?

If you want true safety, have the guy wear a condom and switch it every time he pulls out of her ass. That's really the only safe way to do it. You could orchestrate the same routine I described above, only he'd be doing a quick change with the condom.

Again, I like it. My own ass can only take so much fucking before it's no fun for me anymore. Having the guy return to her pussy to give her more pleasure there would make viewing anal scenes more erotic to me. However, my fantasy isn't worth damaging a girl's health or her economic state by putting her out of work for a week due to some irritating infection. Please, only do this safely, even if the girl assures you she doesn't get infections. She could be lying. She could have a big bill she's overdue in paying. Just do a little movie magic and make it look spontaneous, but keep it safe.

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I couldn't care less whether she really did ATP or not. I've got a vivid imagination. I can supply the nasty-factor from my own brain if I want to. You can't? Really? Honestly, I really want to know. I don't have a cock. I don't know what it's like to be a man watching porn. For me, it's not big deal at all. I'm not being a bitch or putting you on the spot. I'm trying to expand my horizons and open my mind.

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What you suggested is IMO simply "faking it" to the point where it no longer has any appeal. It's the same kind of thing as filling pussy/ass with yogurt and calling it cream pie.

Secondly, it would be impossible to perform multiple double dips at once.

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So just let the performers come up with their own lists of what they will/won't do.

As long as one one gets hurt. Alternatively, if a girl won't let a guy back into her pussy with a a cleaning first, why not let her do the cock cleansing herself and incorporate that into the tease aspect.

In my opinion, there's not enough tease and build up anymore. It's like "Hi, nice to meet you, make yourself at home in my already gaping anus."

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And you're right. I mean, they're already fucking w/out a condom. That's not exactly safe. In fact, it gives the illusion of being unsafe.

I have the same quandry every time I write an erotic sex scene. Should I have the guy(s) wear a condom or not? If so, how do I work that into the scene without killing the mood? Lately I've found that female readers are demanding condom use, because any man that would fuck you without putting on a condom isn't worth fantasizing about (and because teenage girls read a lot of erotica and explicit romance--there are no age limits to purchase these books). In real life, a guy slipping on a condom happens in a matter of seconds and it doesn't break the momentum at all. In a book, it's like slamming on the breaks and throwing it into reverse. It takes at least three sentences to describe it. You can't just have it materialize out of thin air. So I know what Doughboy means about it being a challenge.

So I'm sure there's a way for a guy to quickly clean himself and slip right back in that pussy without concern for giving the girl an itchy, stinky infection. Here, I've got an idea:

Kleenex Moist Wipes for Hands and Face They're alcohol-free, so they won't shrink the cock. Hell, they make warmers for diaper wipes (babies are so spoiled these days) so you can keep these things toasty warm for your stud. Plus you'll have them handy for after-facial cum clean-up. Your female talent will be impressed that you have wipes that don't smell like baby powder!

C'mon, think outside the box!

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IMO, either you do "normal" ATP or you don't do ATP if the girl doesn't do it. It's as simple as that. No offense, but I don't understand why all this trickery is needed. Whom are you trying to fool here, my friend?

Btw, sucking (ATM) cock won't eliminate bacteria. That being said, why don't you just shoot the whole scene in the shower, swimming pool or jacuzzi?

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Hail Bandit

Edited by - I love Bandit on 11/7/2005 10:14:18 PM

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I'm unsure as to why you make it sound like your world came apart here. People do have various micro-fetishes being that ATM, DPs, swallowing or whatever. A porn scene doesn't have to solely revolve around those acts, but they are not irrelevant depending on your personal preference. I happen to like watching ATP so I pay attention to that, but personally, I'd rather watch rocking sex scene without ATP, than rocking sex scene with some kind of fake-camera-trick "ATP" where director assumes that his viewers are too stupid to notice. That's all I was trying to say.

Edited by - Zoid on 11/7/2005 10:55:21 PM

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ATP faked might look good, especially if condoms are switched or the cleansing is part of the play or edited out.

ATP for real is a totally different matter. IMHO it really shows total negligence on the part of the producer and director. There isn't an MD that would say this practice is remotely safe because the vagina does not have any of the powerful germ fighting capabilities of the mouth or digestive system that deal with ATM scenes.

I dislike a legalistic or regulated society, but ATP that results in infection, pelvic inflammatory disease, or loss of income from other work for any actress should attract a sharp civil lawyer to drain some of the producer's coffers and make the practice an unwise business decision.

ATP is another reason for the industry to have some OSHA regulations and boundaries. Some produces cannot seem to set any boundaries where clearly the health of the workers are not a priority obviously need some boundaries set for them.

Gman

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Dirty Little Double Dippers

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Edited by - Pagoda on 11/8/2005 4:39:25 AM

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ATP RULEZ!!!

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Edited by - Watcher on 11/8/2005 7:55:00 AM

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Also, directors know this is what alot of viewers want to see. For example, when ATM was gradually becoming popular, the girls used to regularly use their hands to wipe off the dick before putting it into their mouths. But then, the guys started telling them not to use their hands and to go straight to the mouth, which is the common method now. The point of extreme gonzo, from what I can see, is to keep pushing the limits as far as legally possible. First it was ATM and gagging, now it's ATP; they even have girls eating their own creampies now. I think it's all good. I'm looking forward to see what they come up with next.

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As far as Jon Dough's assertion that some girl's don't get infections I don't buy that...their immune systems are better off than others at fighting off infections...eventually it will catch up with them and for all our sakes I hope the antibiotics can handle the infection.

Aside note : Do you know what movie or Compilation that had a scene with you and Victoria Paris. She was playing a naive actress and you were telling her that she might have to sleep with directors and producers to get work. She worked your dick over good with her tits and mouth. You fucked her reverse Cowgirl on a couch and she finished you off stroking a load onto her tits and a little on her face. That was a hot scene...it actually had some "plot".
Now its a quick intro and right to the action.

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It seems pretty normal business relationship to me. If a secretary can't type (fast) and I, as employer, require that skill, I'll find one that can. If a porn star doesn't do stuff I wanna shoot, I'll find one that does. There is nothing wrong with that.

Edited by - Zoid on 11/8/2005 11:54:21 AM

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As for your comment that nobody would do work that sickened people, I'm astonished anyone could make such an assertion with a straight face. Here are just a couple of examples from the 19th century where people continued to work in unhealthy environments - coal mining and New Orleans. People do what they think they have to do to survive.

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Also, I find it laughable that you would compare porn to coal mining and 19th-century New Orleans. That's an exaggeration if ever I heard one. Unlike the coal miners of the 19th-century who were working to support their families and had no alternative, porn chicks do not HAVE to do ATP. In fact, there are quite a few who don't do anal at all. Whatever a girl does in porn she does of her own volition. And as for your example of New Orleans, the New Orleans of the 19th-century was a slave society where many of the people (slaves) were also working because they had no choice. Again, alot different from a chick who participates in consensual acts in order to get rich quick.

And as for government regulations, don't we already have enough of that as it is? Why do you think so many people are ordering their porn from overseas now? American hardcore porn already has a tough enough time competeing with foreign companies who have no regulations at all. Furthermore, the way our government is going, I seriouly think our elected officials need to spend their time on far more important issues than ATP. That's the problem now; they spend too much time squabbling over frivolous issues instead of important ones that actually benefit citizens. And as far as I'm concerned, we really don't need to be giving them anymore encouragement to put more restrictions on our freedoms, whether it be a woman's freedom to participate in ATP, or my freedom to enjoy watching it.

I totally agree with Doughboy. People always need to play some "victim card" in order to advance their own agenda.

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However, my advice would be to do first what turns you on as a performer/director. The audience's desires should be secondary to what you want as a director. Don't let shifting customer tastes affect your product too much. You're the artist and you're in the driver's seat. The rest of us are just along for the ride.

That said, in general I prefer quality over quantity. I'd much rather see longer scenes that are great, than many scenes that are lacking in heat or chemistry. I'm not concerned with fulfilling a shopping list of sex acts...ATP (check) PTA (check) gaping (check) facial cumshot(check), etc. I am interesting in seeing people who love to fuck and would fuck regardless of whether or not the camera is there.

And speaking of the Keri's and the Jenna's, isn't it interesting that porn has become an industry where a person can navigate their own success? Isn't it crazy to think that one can enter this business with a long term strategy?

Government regulation within porn would not produce a better product. At the end of a mainstream movie, you always see that "No animal was harmed in the making of this film." But in porn you can see a chick get the shit slapped out of her and spat upon like angry camels. That just doesn't seem right. Also to have someone standing there to block the cock to prevent an unsanctioned ATP or make sure that the thumbs stay outside of the pussy to prevent fisting is just ridiculous. Obscenity and community standards are too vague of a yardstick to do anything about. Let the market drive what we see. Let our $ speak for what we want.

If you have to have someone from the health dept. on set, then maybe it can be worked into the scene.

I once saw a movie where Ed Powers, Randy and Stagliano went to Brazil. They brought a girl who was a translator but did not participate. It was funny to see her in the background fully dressed pressing at her pussy through her jeans and stomping her foot because she was horny and couldn't get involved.

Maybe a scene with someone from OSHA or a health rep in the background not participating. It's interesting to see how a non-participating third party reacts to the heat of two people fucking right in front of them. I find the reactions of the person in the scene but not participating fascinating. The third party could be a friend of the girl or her boyfriend. That would really create some interesting dynamics.

But I digress. I think at the end of the day, if you can look at your work with pride then you've done well. So keep up the good work Jon. I look forward to your next movie.

Edited by - MFD on 11/8/2005 5:20:18 PM

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I love ATP and so do many guys and girls.

Why not make a movie with an ass to pussy them? All the girls doing lots of atp. Only thing is I would prefer is not to use many euro girls as we rarely get to see american chicks doing this...Sineplex basically has every girl do atp, so there is no lack of euro women doing this currently.

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As for New Orleans, when you say "where many of the people (slaves) were also working because they had no choice," you clearly acknowledge that many people weren't slaves. Free men died of yellow fever, too. Therefore, that example stands, as well. And, for your future reference, slaves cost money, so it was the free whites who worked the most dangerous jobs.

I could cite other jobs, but my examples stand already - your claim that nobody will do a job that sickens people is false. You might have a point if the job did so immediately and without exception, but that's not what we're dealing with here.

Finally, I'm not going to bother replying to the red herring of government intervention, since I'm not looking to government to correct the erroneous beliefs held by porn fans.

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If a girl gets post-ATP infection after following that, then her immune system must be exceptionally weak.

Of course, the best safety measure is simply not doing it, but this can be said about every sex act.

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Direct ATP cannot be made safe, period. It invariably transmits E.Coli bacteria from the ass, where it lives happily, to the pussy, where it causes infections more often than not. Yes, I know some performers claim otherwise. We treat them at AIM every day. ATP = vaginal infection. End of story. If you want to do it for the money or watch it to get your rocks off, that's your choice, but the facts are what they are.

Likewise concerning cream pies. Obviously, they're not unsafe with an uninfected partner. Nothing is unsafe with an uninfected partner. If married or fluid-bonded performers care to do cream pies, no problem.

However, the contention that cream pies represent no additional risk with a partner whose immune status is unknown is nonsensical. While some HIV might be present in pre-ejaculatory fluid, the concentration is minute compared to that found in a full load of live semen. A cream pie with an infected performer is a direct viral shot to exposed membranes.

The difference was all too bitterly clear last spring. Those primary contacts who did cream pies with the initially infected indivdual were themselves infected. Those who didn't were not. I have long suspected that one of the reasons HIV remains rare in the porn community is because of the convention of the external ejaculation. I think we've seen some pretty disturbing evidence to support that view.

I oppose ill-fated and misguided attempts to impose governmental regulations against high-risk practices, but if performers choose to engage in those practices, they should not do so out of ignorance or denial or because some producer waved a few bucks in their faces and assured them it was cool.

Get the facts. Make your decisions accordingly.

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How many of those who got infection didn't do anything to reduce the chance of getting it in the first place?

I would assume that since AIM is a medical organisation, you primarily come in contact with people who have had bad experiences, being that ATP or smth else, and seek help/advice (not counting those who just do the testing). So from that angle, your facts seem somewhat one-sided, unless of course you performed comprehensive research in this area.

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I'm not going to begrude anyone their desire to be sanitary nor am I going to expect clean ATP from someone who likes it direct.

I'm not really convinced that ATP is something that needs to be tracked either medically or by IAFD. As a particular act, it seems too 'niche' to me.

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