-DB

I believe this originates from the deep down knowledge of some porn viewers that these women/men do this for the money and are secretly laughing at all of us pitiful wanking raincoaters. I for one felt that way at the AVN convention and it has been a long road in repairing my image of so-called 'stars. My respect is as low for them as there respect for me is.

So, as devils advocate, I can say that 'we' in turn do not give a rats ass how they are treated. Its a catch 22; we love the performances, but do not like the performers. I for one find it repugnant that a performer could display sexuality that they wouldn't do in 'real' life. If we are to believe then that porno stars are just playing 'roles' than the whole illusion is completely shit upon.

I DO NOT WANT TO WITNESS porn people doing things for money alone. If its not in your tastes, don't do it. And if you do, for whatever reason, decide to 'act' these actions out that you would not normally do unless money is on the table, than I have a word for you, whether man or woman-

Its called WHORE.

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Edited by - Steph on 3/4/2003 6:07:55 PM

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You must live a very strange lifestyle. Personally, every day when I go to work I do things which I would not do were I not being paid for it: does this make me worthy of insulting as well?

Jeff Steward

You've got a lot of growing up to do pal. Perhaps you should start posting racist stuff as well; maybe have a go at disabled people?

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Not being a woman, and especially not being a porn performer, I don't have any kind of valuable opinion that hasn't been expressed already, so I'll spare you all. Walter and Speelie come the closest to summing up how I feel about all this, and I think I've expressed myself well enough in my posts and in my reviews here that everyone who cares knows my perspective well enough. If there's any question about my respect for the performers, I'd like to know about it.

I do have to say that there are a few posts in this thread that depress me greatly... and make me wonder what the heck I'm even doing here. I think this a complicated social subject, and I think we would ALL do well to first admit to that .

Mike L.

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I live the strange lifestyle of doing what I want in my own time and not letting money make me do things that I do not want to do. No amount of money can make me do certain things, and if I do them, I am whoring myself. And yes, certain jobs made me feel like a whore. I felt like a whore once because I used a girl for her money and didn't like her. But if an employer thinks that they have FREE REIGN over my life because they pay me, thats ridiculous. I would hate to have you as a manager if you feel this way. I have had management positions during my 'strange lifestyle' and I would never expect people to do things outside of what they were comfortable of.

Thats what a whore is, someone who does something because of the money and not the principles. You are NOT a slave, you have the choice to not do these things. If you believe that its okay to do things for the money only, then you might also argue that a drug dealer, pimp, and someone who sells 'snake oil' are only trying to make a living. Which is true! But then, if I can't call them what they are for fear of offending, then I am biting my tongue out of my own yellow, spineless wormless self. I call a duck a duck. JM productions are a bunch of scum buckets and they make gr8 porn. At least they are honest. Max Hardcore doesn't pretend to be the pope. I am a dirty pervert, but at least I don't pretend not to be.

I think people are trying to score points here; the original topic was called 'beautiful women sharing their sexuality with us...'

Yeah, but only for a price.

I noticed that my posts are being glanced over, and only one point is being talked about rather than the bulk of what I say. If thats the process you learned in debate class, then you win. I am not trying to win over anyone, I am trying to throw in a point or two from a grey area.

I think this is important; if the flipside of an argument cannot be made without respect to it, thats groovy and we can go back to posting about gapes, nostril cumshots, etc.

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No, it's not. In the context of your argument, the definition of a whore is someone who compromises their principles for money. That doesn't equate to doing something just for the money. You have to be against it as well. If I may use DB as an example, if she has no objection to striptease, in principle, then being paid to perform a striptease on stage doesn't make her a whore, even if she has reasons she wouldn't perform it in private life. Get it?

P-Knuckle wrote: "I believe this originates from the deep down knowledge of some porn viewers that these women/men do this for the money and are secretly laughing at all of us pitiful wanking raincoaters. I for one felt that way at the AVN convention and it has been a long road in repairing my image of so-called 'stars. My respect is as low for them as there respect for me is."

And there's no reason you should respect someone who doesn't respect you. However, to paint everyone in porn with the same brush because of your experience at the AVN convention seems extreme to me. Also, shouldn't there be an equal amount of condemnation, or perhaps disrespect would be a better word, of the male talent?

P-Knuckle wrote: "So, as devils advocate, I can say that 'we' in turn do not give a rats ass how they are treated. Its a catch 22; we love the performances, but do not like the performers. I for one find it repugnant that a performer could display sexuality that they wouldn't do in 'real' life. If we are to believe then that porno stars are just playing 'roles' than the whole illusion is completely shit upon."

Huh? You just said it's an illusion and you're demanding that it be real in the same sentence?! Come on P-Knuckle, does that make sense? If you find it repugnant then you'd better stop watching, because there's no way all these women are going to be doing everything in real life that they do in their stage personas, any more than I acted the same way off stage as I did on it.

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The fact is, why use a term that offends someone if you have no axe to grind with them? Can you not just accept that certain women are offended if you call them (as opposed to their on screen portrayals) whores and that this in itself is sufficient reason not to?

You suggest that unless you call them whores you are a 'yellow, spineless wormless self'. I suggest an alternative angle. There is nothing big nor clever about going around recanting your own brand of truths regardless of the effect it has on people.

With regard to this 'doing it for the money issue' you are playing fast and loose with the arguments you use.

I stated that at work I do things I would not do were I not paid for it. You have manipulated this into discussing doing things one is not comfortable with. I also never stated that my employers have a free reign over what I do just plainly and simply that I would not do the things I do at work, or go to work at all in fact, were I not paid for it.

Do not misinterpret me. I have no problem with using these words on-screen or in private or in jest. For me they are not particularly insulting terms in themselves; they do, however, become insulting terms when they are deliberately meant as such. I work on a fire station and my watch colleagues call me a cunt, a wanker, a tosser and a prick many many times a day, and this is fine because they are also my friends. Conversely, if a guy I've never met walked up to me and said 'oi cuntfuck!' THEN I would be insulted because he would mean it as an insult (and not a term of endearment).

I do agree with some of what you say, I personally could never visit a prostitute because I would feel they would view me very dimly for doing so and it may well be that many porn stars have a dim view of their customer base. Clearly though, to start insulting a group of people on the basis that some of them take a dim view of you is no way to carry on.

Take care,
Sir Noel.

Edited by - Sir Noel Plum on 3/4/2003 7:56:32 PM

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In other words, if it's OK to declare something like this...

"These vile fuck pigs are here for one reason only. To suck dick and milk cock and gape for our viewing pleasure. The only reason they exist is to drink my urine and to eat my shit."

...then it's just as OK to reply with something like this:

"This vile fuck pig provides reason enough why men who look like him need money to get fucked by a woman of any race, his race in particular. Ultimately, they see such wankers eating their own shit while milking their absurdly undersized, nearly medically insignificant cocks."

I mean, right? If there's pride in voicing hate-fucks, guess there's no shame bringing up a race-fuck, either. Why take it personally? It's just a viewpoint, and maybe even an honest one, which makes it's every bit as A-OK to brag about. Right? Except that it isn't, in either case.

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I would also like to clarify a couple things that I said (and didn't say).
I said that there are things I did on camera that I would never do off-camera. I wasn't talking "things" like sexual acts like anal or facials or especially rougher sex. These things I like a lot and DO do them in real life.
I was more referring to the casual sex aspect. One of the reasons I got into porn was so that I could experiment and explore sex without having to "date" guys in order to have sex with them. I hate first dates, always did. And relationships can ruin what could otherwise be great sex.
However, a part of me is uncomfortable with a reality of casual sex with no boundaries. Porn gave me a boundary of where the emotions were left off.

Finally, I'm sorry if you had bad experiences at the convention. Hopefully I'm not wrong when I say this, but I don't remember meeting you. I wish you would have come to my booth. You would have met a LOT of people who love the jobs they do and have a good time with their fans.

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WW
Somewhere buying a ticket

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I also wonder why you call yourself a dirty pervert. It is your right, of course, but one of my goals with ADT is to help people move beyond the idea that porn and sex are "dirty" or "bad." I think that I have an open, honest, and healthy interest in sex. I have wondered if one reason for people to fling insults at porn performers is because they themselves feel guilty over their interest in porn, and therefore, they feel like a bad person for this, and by extension, the people involved in making porn must still be worse. I wear my ADT shirt in public because I consider this site something good and worthwhile to my life, and I want people to know it. One small step at a time, it may be possible to break down some of society's barriers.

I resent the implication that I am trying to kiss up to the industry. My whole point, as I stated from the beginning, is that in the movies I watch these days, such as the Killer Pussy and Beautiful Girls lines, I repeatedly see women who get really into the action, and who go beyond the basic requirements for collecting a paycheck as a porn performer. I got to meet some European actresses in Vegas, and I found Mandy Bright, Rita Faltoyano, Sophie Evans and Dora Ventor to all be friendly and charming, as was Sophie's husband, Toni Ribas. Once Toni realized I had seen most of his movies, his first question was, "how can I make them better?" He really cares about his product, and the actresses care about the work they do (I readily admit, Julia Taylor made a much poorer impression, so not all is perfect).

I'm an eternal optimist, and maybe my "glass half-full" viewpoint rubs wrong to those who prefer to see the glas sas half-empty, but the above is the real state of my thoughts these days.

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It is good to see that you, as an individual, have sufficient self confidence that such comments are but water off a ducks back; it is good that you can deride yourself, no question.

Not everybody is quite so thick skinned. Maybe I like nailing my bollocks to the table, it doesn't mean you'd be comfy with it; maybe you're able to shrug off such racist comments (especially when they aren't serious), it doesn't mean somebody else isn't be upset by them.

That little paragraph you just wrote about yourself is a case in point. If you said that to my gf (who is also a chink) she would be very upset and she would dwell on it for quite a while; if I said the same thing to her she would laugh it off (maybe attack me a bit). Don't you see the difference. Don't you see how what is okay to say on-screen or in your excellent online scribblings is not okay when written in a genuine discussion such as this.

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I believe it's a complete disservice to this board when a major porn producer like Mike Jeff is banned because of alleged improprieties of political correctness. We're talking about a guy who got nailed with 20 cops around his house by Vice. Refused to cop a plea to obscenity. Backed up his words (and money) with actions. And finally (and proudly) copped to a misdeameanor for being a 'public nuisance).

We're not talking some idiot like Bryan Sullivan or that whole clan of jibberish spewing morons.

AdultDVDTalk should be a forum by which all opinions, legit or illegit depending on perceptions, can be shared, thought out, debated, and reconstructed. The mere fact a smut peddler like Mike Jeff cannot be allowed to voice his opinions is a travesty.

Now on to the original topic. Here's what a whore is and its relation to the adult business.

A whore is any girl who fucks for money.

I would say 90% of the girls in the industry hate what they do and fuck only for money.

I would also say that 99% of the girls in the industry hate getting assfucked but do it only for the money.

I would also say that 99% of the girls in the industry have serious issues such as but not limited to previous bouts with rape, incest, molestation, drug abuse, pimp boyfriends, etc.

Most have an IQ of room temperature. Most do not have automobiles. Most do not have bank accounts. Most do not and cannot acquire a credit card. Most squander all their porn earnings almost immediately. Most will end up penniless and return to the business because their job skills relegate them to a lifelong search for a drug dealing sugardaddy or public assistance. Most have complete lack of self-esteem. These are societal problems and cannot be blamed on an adult industry which neither cares or should care.

The fact that I could call a new porn girl a 'fucking whore' and, when I explain myself, they shower me with hugs as I tell them that they should suck as much dick as possible to get ahead tells you alot. Yes, I coach these girls too on how to be the best whore they can be. It's more of a longetivity and monetary issue as opposed to a derogatory one.

Here's an interesting story. I usually have whores running rampant around my abode. When a friend asks me how he can get blown by these whores, I tell them to go up next to them and pull out their peckers. It's the easiest way. Why? These girls are conditioned to suck dick. When there's a dick in front of them, they look like a deer caught in the headlights and don't know what to do. It's instinct for them to suck it until it coats the back of their throats with nut butter.

Now tell me this. Do you think the girls in the industry love what they do? Nearly every scene ends in a facial. Can you really fathom how truly degrading this act really is? Can you really fathom how truly degrading it is to suck off 5 complete strangers and gulp down their ball snot and have to pretend they loved every minute of it? Can you really fathom how truly degrading it is to suck on a dick that's been pulled out of your own asshole which smells like complete shit? They do it for the money and that's what makes them whores.

Let me repeat: THAT'S WHAT MAKES THEM WHORES.

I think alot of you forget after watching so many DVDs exactly what the reality is. You fall into a trap of fantasy land thinking these girls love what they do. If there was no paycheck involved, the female talent pool would drop to nothing. They don't do it for the sheer love of it. They get drilled in the asshole, they take a mugfull of cum, they fuck complete strangers, because of one reason only. THEY ARE WHORES.

Get out of fantasyland and really think about it.

WW

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So, Wanker_Wang, I am very glad you share your insight with us (also I dont believe every word, you write). And I dont agree with Speelies title of thread <Beautiful women sharing their sexuality with us>. I think such women you dont see in film, such women you might meet in real life. Maybe. (My ex-wife certainly was such a women).

I think a lot of people do forget about reality when they watch porn. Reality, I agree with WW, is that most (not all, but the majority) of girls (amd boys, too) do act a role in this films to get payed for this afterwards.

This, however, does not turn them into <whores>, but <actors/actresses> of some sort in my opinion. Or maybe we should introduce technical term <sex worker>. They perform their job selling their intimate body parts to be used for a certain fee.

Doing that I think these sex workers deserve all our respect, especially of those buying their services (me and most people discussing here) or those earning money with their performances (the producers, distributors etc discussiong here).

The problem is just, wheter calling them <whores> and <sluts> is an insult or not. These words (and a few others like <cunt> etc) are pure porn-jargon for some of us, but socially stigmatized for others.

I think working within porn-business one should not feel as easily insulted, if called like this.
BUT insult is, if somebody called like that feels insulted. So: LET US PLEASE NOT CALL TRICIA A <WHORE>, BECAUSE SHE DOES FEEL INSULTED.
And while Amee Donovan takes the same terms with humor (as she wrote me), Tricia will not be the only (former) porn performer feeling insulted. So lets try to be a bit more clear about what we mean, when calling girls <sluts> etc.

Maybe we could put the word
always in brackets after the word, to we dont use it in stigmatizing sense, but in good sense.
Because actually porn plays a lot with traditional values (like virginity, mono-gamy) turned up-side down.

PS: Me, I dont share this traditional values. I never wanted my wife to be monogam. I order escorts since I am 18 and I consume even the hardest porn without shame. I accept that we live in capitalist world and every thing or service can be baught and has its price. I have money, I wanna buy sex, so what is the problem?!

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If you read my posts, they are not gender specific to women. I think both men and women who ONLY do something for money are whores. I checked the dictionary and thats what the definition is, someone who exchanges sex for money. Its that simple. I know that the english language is complicated, that certain words set off a myriad of imagery. In fact, I applaud women and men who express sexuality when its a true display of what they desire. I think it was Jules Jordan who talked in AVN mag. and made some great comments as to how he loves what he does. It was in that director story and I don't want to mis-quote what he said, but in short I got the impression that him doing porn was what he WANTED to do. He didn't dream of doing mainstream, he didn't brag about money, he talked about PORN. In my opinion, he is not a whore. This is his art.

I go on ad nauseum about this topic; but I feel compelled to stop here. Internet message boards do not allow a full human interaction about such personal topics.

Edited by - P-Knuckle on 3/5/2003 2:42:28 PM

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Part of the industry legitimizes fucking on camera as 'work' with less stigma attached than hooking. At the same time, girls with no name know what a scary situation it could be to hook on their own.

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"I believe it's a complete disservice to this board when a major porn producer like Mike Jeff is banned because of alleged improprieties of political correctness."

There's pc and then there's just human decency. jeff mike was banned because his "alleged" attitude was just trollish and hateful and he "allegedly" disrespected the owner of this site. They put up with a lot, and I respect them all the more for not allowing porn producers to get away with more than would be tolerated from regular members.

I don't put up with people disrespecting me and once told a good client to go fuck himself and take his business elsewhere because he was verbally abusing me on the telephone. That's one of the few advantages to owning your own business.

So maybe these girls should stand up for themselves more, and that's what Tricia is doing. I respect that, but I do agree that they have to share part of the blame, as well as us consumers.

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And hate to burst your bubble, but the girls will never stand up for themselves. Most are too stupid to even show up on a set without making up a bunch of feeble lies. It doesn't affect me in the least. In this industry, if you have a reputation of paying properly, the whores will come to you in droves regardless of how 'disrespectful' you are.

That being said, I personally get along with a ton of these 'whores' and most of them hate 'whores' to the point it even makes me cringe.

WW
Eating a bucket of poo poo

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-We- should wake up from fantasyland?

Thanks again to all the "Beautiful women sharing their sexuality with us".
Despite all the sleazy characters, the pimps, the back-stabbers, the human trash that sorround them.

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Obviously the owners of the site do.

But to get back to the 'whore' debate, trust me, I am under no illusions about a lot of the people in porn, and I hear what you're saying. I also know that jeff mike's view is shared by many and he is just more upfront about it, despite some wanting to think otherwise, or that he was just talking shit.

I also see some hypocrisy in wanting to see a guy ejaculate into a female's face, but I think that's because most guys believe that these girls really love that. Please...

So, keep it real, WW. I think porn needs more real.

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I can’t truly fathom it, but I cannot disagree. I wouldn’t be surprised if more than 90 percent of the girls in the industry saw it exactly how you’ve described it. You see them IRL and I don’t. Nor do I personally have any desire to see any of their movies, ever.

Nor can I take issue with “99% of the girls in the industry have serious issues such as … rape, incest, molestation, drug abuse, pimp boyfriends, etc. Most have complete lack of self-esteem.”

What I do take issue with is the pervasive attitude, both in and outside of the industry, that “these are societal problems and cannot be blamed on an adult industry which neither cares or should care.”

Luke had it almost right when he wrote, “Guess what porners? Even if people consent to destroying themselves, catching vicious diseases, ripping apart their own psyches and souls…THAT STILL DOESN'T MAKE IT OK FOR YOU TO PROFIT FROM.” I’d add: especially when you make it worse. Sucking off “five complete strangers and gulping down their ball snot” is plenty degrading without referring to them as “whores” and sticking crap like “aka Filthy Whore” or “aka Cum-Swallowing Slut” after their name on credits and box covers. What’s next? Sending them bareback into a roomful of parolees with active herpes lesions because as whores, they really deserve it? Uh, wait. I think someone’s already done that.

Even if taking shit is part of the job, it’s wrong for anyone to shit on a person’s soul just for the hell of it, because it’d be sort of fun to watch them collapse. It’s like yelling “jump, jump!” in someone’s ear for months or years, then scampering behind the fact that you didn’t provide the final shove. It’s sick. So are the fans who support it, IMO, even those doing so blindly. As WW said: Get out of fantasyland.

Porn consumers aren’t automatically part of the problem, but they are when they buy these digital POSes just so they can go slap happy. I have no reason to doubt WW when he says 90-99 percent of girls hate whatever, and probably slapping, so I make it a point to remember the names of girls who convincingly argue that they DO like it. I have no reason to doubt Tricia, for example, when she says she’s one of them. And since I similarly have no reason to doubt that many pornographers disrespect their performers, I seek to support directors, distributors and promoters —Mason, Evil Angel and Mlyonsden come to mind – who don’t call the talent “vile fuck pigs” in real life.

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I would like to discuss without counter-checkingmy jargon abaout porn, nut at the same time I do not want to insult any of those wonderful women involved in it (especially in front of camera). And this is difficult task. Very difficult!

I would say: Please relax! But probabely my <j>-sign proposal is better, because some people can never relax. <j> = watch out porn jargon (that means: dont take this words at average societies value)!
example 1:
Natasha rides his cock like a random slut <j>, but she lacks in the looks department. (that means: I dont say Natasha is a bad girl, or morally corrupted, or inferior, I just use PORN-JARGON here)
exapmle 2:
what a whore <j> Natasha is riding all those studs <j> like this, but frankly I would have preferred her to shave her cunt <j>. (here <beautiful girl with high sexual appetite>, <guy> and
would be nicer words of course, but as we are describing porn and not banking problems such language is used)

please let us relax or introduce the <j>-sign in our posts.

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It's confusing enough when someone quotes Luke and praises Mason in the same post, but I since I just watched Dirty Trixxx 1, I came away from that thinking that jeff mike and WW are absolutely right about porn girls, and you can't have it both ways.

If they like to be treated like filthy whores in these videos then it seems to me that there's no reason to object when someone calls them that. Or are they just faking it? Wanker Wang, please explain this to me!

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Eddie Tour

Remember, Its just Fucking Gossip
http://www.fuckinggossip.com

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But as for this hypothetical promo:

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Eddie

Remember, Its just Fucking Gossip
http://www.fuckinggossip.com

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But as WW has said, for every one of her there are 99, or maybe even 999, who aren't acting degraded--they're being traumatized and destroyed in real life, on camera. It's just denial to believe you're engaging in fantasy if you're seeing pain, blood, crying and passing out for real--and with the odds above, assume that you are. It's like Stephen King's "The Long Walk," in which the drive for entertainment justified recruiting a hundred teenagers to walk steadily and sleeplessly along the nation's highways without stopping on pain of death. The last one alive would win. Hey, they all consented, so supposedly there's nothing wrong with this. But there is, it's sick to insist otherwise, and wrong to support it in any way. Look, I know full well that the only power I have is over my own decisions. I'm just saying that for me, porn that's like this is the kind I try to avoid.

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Eddie, I respect your opinion. So the next time you fondle that gray cat of yours, show some balls and speak your mind. Your old school, aged values don't mesh with the reality of porn today.

BTW, it's the gonzo market where most of the money is made by these 'actresses'. Not features. You're more than welcome to come to one of my sets and, trust me, I'll get your dick sucked for free. Stop living in the past.

WW
"It's just a fucking opinion!"

Edited by - wanker_wang on 3/7/2003 7:16:55 AM

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I'm gonna need some coffee now.

Edited by - skronker on 9/25/2004 3:43:22 PM

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Oh, it's a good one, skronker... and well said, Fast Forward.

I WOULD like to know who exactly 'Eddie Tour' is, or perhaps his credentials.

I've said from the getgo that porn should a fantasy, but recently I've had to admit that clearly it is not to many people, so that argument, sadly, no longer applies.

Every single scene in the movie I just watched had the females being choked, slapped, forced to eat their own shit or their head shoved into a toilet. I will say that they didn't seem to mind it much, but after watching them I can't say that I have much respect for them either, the images are too disturbing to just shrug off, even though I know it's "just a fantasy."

I wonder why everyone is so blase about it. YogaGrrl said she had bad dreams for two weeks after watching Fashionistas. And we've seen a lot of porn. That's reality.

You might say 'if you don't like that kind, don't watch it' but the problem is that it's getting so pervasive. I'm not saying that stuff shouldn't have its place, but it's getting hard to find good porn that doesn't degrade or insult, I don't care whether you say it's consentual or not.

It seems to me that the porn industry should offer more of that and fewer awards to abusive degrading porn (not that awards in porn mean all that much) then maybe it would have a lot of new customers and a lot less criticism.

The S/M community doesn't sanction choking even in private , so putting it in porn is just inexcusably stupid.

It makes me wonder if people live in some kind of porn-altered state of reality. It really doesn't matter to me, except I know I'm gonna have to listen to a bunch of whining and crying when people start getting prosecuted and I lose patience with that crap, especially when they've had plenty of warning.

I'm surprised I have to point this out.

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What do think is making men get off to movies of this subject matter? How wonderful the performances are? of course the viewer believes what is going on, of course a raincoater believes that the woman is inferior and deserving. Thats the turn on! Its not that they are so convincing and 'wow, they are such great actors!' As far as this argument is concerned, realize that people are sexually reaching climax to these movies. Its more than when a crowd applauds a great performance. At the end of a porn, the performers don't come out for a curtain call. So, if you really believe that the majority of men who go to peep boths, frequent the bunny ranch, and buy porn care more about the performers and less about the action, I disagree. But what do I know? I can tell you that the diabolic, redlight, evil angel people at least love what they do. I can't say much for VCA, VIVID macho 'kick your ass' superiority companies. They seem to me to be the eptiome and opposite of what the original name of this post is, because they really don't give a shit about the consumer and they definitely think they are superior to their audience.

Also, as far as VCA, Vivid, and Wicked is concerned, the women who perform in this stuff I would put money on would MUCH rather be doing something else. And they are the worst case of presenting negative, unobtainable visions of what women are. Half are made of plastic, the other half should change their middle name to 'airbrushed.' Would they rather be a porn star for 300,000 a year or just a model? PLEASE! They would much rather not have sex on camera, but they don't have any other opportunities for money, and as soon as they do, whether it be regular modeling, B movie acting, marrying a rich guy, or possibly directing movies so they in turn can pimp women rather than be themselves pimped, they do it. Yeah, some of them go on to wait tables at red lobster, whatever. I hear some go on to college type jobs. But more often, when the money is discovered for making porn, they leave these jobs to make porn!

Wanker Wang might not be as eloquent as Shakespeare, but he is more honest about his take of the industry than most others. And I applaud him for this. Also, I love that Dumbblonde and I are on the same side of the fence for this post (although it might not read that way from my posts.)

I don't think this argument is progressing much. I am sure I made a couple of comments that negate each other and prove that I don't know what I am talking about. So I am going to go watch Lucio Fulci's the Beyond... see you all in a couple weeks.

Edited by - P-Knuckle on 3/7/2003 3:38:20 PM

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In all, this is an excellent post, SB. I like dominance and emotional intensity, and I'll admit that I'll watch the rougher stuff to find it, but that doesn't mean that there aren't serious social and political problems with that content.

As far as the women who perform in it... well in the case of movies like Dirty Trixxx, et al, I respect the women for their right to express their sexual fantasies by acting out "degrading scenerios" I don't look at these scenarios as real in any sense. I realize, though, that there are a fair number of people who are watching this stuff for the wrong reasons.

I still am very much at issue with Wanker Wang's tone. I'm sure he believes what he says, but he's perpetuating the negatives and the shame associated with this nomenclature, and I think that's counterproductive to taking porn to a new level of sophistication and popular understanding.

Mike L.

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Consider a hypothetical man, who enjoys having a woman urinate on him. Perhaps in the heat of the moment, she starts calling him, "piss sissy," or something similar. It is part of that moment, but if I walk up to that man on the street, and yell, "Hey ____, you're a piss sissy!" I'm insulting him and attacking his manhood. And it is the same thing if I walk up to Alexandra Quinn away from the set and announce, "you're a fucking whore!" Now it is an insult, and it implies that she would in reality stand by the highway with her "will fuck for food" sign, instead of this being a fantasy that she explored and shared with people via DVD.

As to a different matter, I rewatched the last scene of Orgy World 3 yesterday, and I was again very impressed by the energy and enthusiasm the women put out. They went beyond what I considered the minimum requirement, and it was this sort of activity that prompted this thread in the first place. Watching the scene also remined me of a point that hasn't been discussed. Porn performers of both genders who do more than a few scenes learn to recognize the good assignments from the bad ones. I have seen various actresses be much more into the sex when they are with good looking men that they like, and if the people in question develop a history, it can lead to phenomenal scenes. A classic American example is Jessica Darlin with Tom Byron. These two had a special chemistry which clicked again and again, as they brought out the best in each other. My focus is on European women, but I see similar events on occasion with them, for example, Steve Holmes and his many couplings with Michelle Wild. If David Lugar in 110% Natural 4 had simply assigned say, Mr. Pete, to be with Michelle, the two strangers might well have delivered a lifeless scene, but old friends Steve and Michelle lit up the screeen together. When I write about beautiful women gifting me, as a viewer, with some of their sexuality, I mean it in terms of this idealized sort of pairing, because I fully realize it isn't going to happen with the majority of releases. But the magic I seek isn't as elusive as some people think, I find it frequently in the movies I review and/or comment upon.

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My concerns are not so much about anyone here. Clearly the men of ADT are intelligent, caring individuals who can separate fantasy from reality. MLyons is a shining example of one who is interested in rough sex, yet treats women with respect. He also believes he is the rule rather than the exception, although I'm not as sure about that.

My comments have to do with the overall tone and direction I see porn going in, and it worries me. As I've said, that kind of porn should have its place, but when directors like Skeeter Kerkove and Mason are hailed like heroes, something is wrong, and it doesn't bode well for the porn industry's future, or male/female relations.

Fantasies are one thing, and if people enjoy rough sex in private that's great, but I'm still waiting to read something from a credible mental health professional (sorry, Nancy Friday is a lightweight new-agey writer, not what I'm looking for) confirming that mixing and mass distributing hardcore sex and violence/degradation is a positive thing.

If people see or hear things often enough, they start to believe it. This is basically how advertising works, and they know that sex helps to sell things. Can anyone dispute this?

Now, take HARDCORE sex, which cuts out the middleman and goes right for your genitals. Yet now people want to say that it's just a fantasy, blah blah blah. Sorry, it just doesn't compute, it doesn't make sense to me. If anything, the message is stronger. That's probably why some think of porn girls (and apparently some think of ALL girls) as whores.

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My key concern is that, just as in real life what takes place in the bedroom stops at the bedroom door, what takes place during a sex scene should stop at the edge of the set. Moreover, it behooves the film producers to demonstrate this when the material is particularly heavy.

I've read a few negative comments about Brandon Iron on here recently but he has often included little behind the scenes pieces where he checks with the actresses that they are okay with rough sexplay. To my mind this provides both reassurance for the viewer and a useful reality check because it says 'yes, these things are okay to do, BUT ONLY WITH SOMEBODY HAPPY TO DO IT' (albeit maybe only for money).

I firmly believe that no sex act should be banned between consenting adults and I would hate to see rough sex videos become taboo. I have no truck whatsoever with calling the girls whores/cunts, spitting, slapping, pissing and all the rest but it really has to be shown to stop once the filming of the scene ends - if it's still going on in fly-on-the-wall behind the scenes pieces or when it's dragged into debates such as this thread then the lines start to become blurred and I start to feel concerned.

Sir Noel.

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I'm not hailing Mason because her movies have rough sex. I'm impressed by her because her movies fuck with the usual framework of the vignette porn film, and because her women are very aggressive sexually, and she "troubles" the text of her work (to borrow terminology maybe Walter Burns can appreciate) by being an off-camera presence ... this strange female gaze ... I don't see that very often. I enjoy the harder-edged vibe of some of her scenes, but by no means do all of them work for me, just as not every scene in a Jules Jordan flick works for me.

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As for rough sex and degrading women in porn, I have enjoyed many of such scenes because when they are all over I get this overwhelming urge to hug the alleged victim, much as Chloe Dior hugs Julie Night in the middle of their scene in Service Animals 10. Hugging sometimes can be better than sex.

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That fucking crushed me. After all the intensity, that brought it all home in a very real, emotional way. (I don't know if Chloe was sincere, but Julie was a beautiful sopping mess and - I dunno - it got as close to actually having sex as I have ever gotten from a poirn film).

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I don't hold quite the same low opinion of the women who choose to engage in this type of fantasy/real behavior for the camera, and moreover, I respect their right to do it. Obviously, I also enjoy watching that kind of content to a certain degree as well. However, I do agree with you that it is somewhat upsettingly misleading what today's more extreme porn is doing from a social standpoint. I like Mason, I'll make no secret of that--both as a person and as a pornographer--but I am very concerned that her work, as you say, creates the false impression that all sexually liberated women like to be degraded. This is obviously not true. While I don't believe that Mason is doing anything other than expressing her PERSONAL sexuality, and she'll be the first to admit that, I am troubled that this could be misconstrued in a larger social context.

Getting back to the main topic, however, I personally really appreciate the women who DO enjoy expressing their sexuality in this way--granting that it's a small part of their sexuality. I've never had a problem with thinking of women like this in terms of "whore" and "slut" within the context of the fantasy they are enacting. I suppose there is a bit of love/hate there in that sense, but in my case it doesn't bleed into my real life one bit. I think those labels in the fantasy setting have more to do with the universal notion of arousal being based on an element of danger--or forbidden-ness... wanting what we can't have, and getting it anyway. I can't deny that my personal interest in dominance/submission elements might have something to do with my past experiences, and the nature of women as being forbidden fruit for me for such a long time. In any case, I suppose by the dictionary definition, they are in fact "whores" in the real sense as well, but only by the dictionary definition. Unless I'm wrong, I think that your point is that Dirty Trixxx and movies like it kind of blur that distinction between what's real and what's fantasy--and when I think about it, I can't argue with you.

I guess that my point is that I see women like Julie Night expressing some amazingly primal and raw, emotional things. She is one of those few women who enjoys being "degraded" sexually (or at least, she's darn good at faking it) and given the social stigma that we both are worried about, I think it's amazingly courageous of her to express herself in this way, and since it's something I like to watch, all the better. Given all the negative connotations of "whore" and "slut" in our world, I, like Speelie, refuse to call these women by these names when speaking outside the fantasy they are participating in. And the reason I refuse to do that is that I respect them, and I don't want to give false impressions of both what I think of them, and of who they are. While I think I understand Wanker Wang's... viewpoint, I simply don't believe that he has respect for these girls. Perhaps my unwillingness to accept Wanker's phrasology is the result of the very social stigma that people like Mason wish to dispell, but I object to it because you're only degraded if you FEEL degraded, and we haven't uhm..."progressed" far enough for these socially demeaning words not to be demeaning.

I'm not sure that this post makes any sense... Like everyone else here, I'm on a continuing exploration of my own with regard to topics like this. I also wouldn't doubt that I misinterpretted either SB's, Speelie's or WW comments and please believe me when I say that if I did, it was unintentional and I apologize. I trust you'll correct me. :)

Mike L.

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