How wide spread is this practice ? Is it considered de rigueur on porn productions ? Or am I being hopelessly naive in believing my preferred directors don't indulge in this practice ?
How about the talent : do they let each other know which directors/studios to watch out for ? A Porn star grape vine . Or is it every fresh fish for themselves ? And what about directors : is this acceptable behaviour from your perspective ? If so , what sort of techniques do you use ?
And what about other fans ? Does this sort of stuff worry you , or do you see it as part and parcel of the dangerous playground known as porn ? If you found out a director was doing this to his performers would you stop renting/buying their DVDs ?
<Lee sneakily pins his 'Bleeding Heart' badge on his lapel>
As a fan, I can only answer part of your question:
"Does this sort of stuff worry you?"
Yes, greatly so. It's harder and harder to know what to believe anymore though.
"If you found out a director was doing this to his performers would you stop renting/buying their DVDs?"
Yes. When was the last time I rented a Max Hardcore tape? And be it fair or not, the consistent allegations against him combined with his questionable treatment of talent in BTS segments on DVDs has resulted in me no longer being a fan of Vince Vouyer. I rarely rent any of his stuff anymore.
My suspicion is that this is just like any other touchy issue in porn (i.e. organized crime, drug use, etc.) where no one involved is going to cop to it or discuss it. To the extent that it does go on, the quickest way to get blacklisted is to talk about it.
That being said, my personal opinion is that it happens but is not a widespread practice. By the time that a performer has been around for a while, they learn from others and know how to handle themselves. I think the greatest risk is with brand-new girls who don't know what is normal and what is not.
Yes.Probably, but how do you find out? I watch a movie with the mental attitude of viewing a staged fantasy - performed/created by a crew of risk-aware, sane, consenting adults. There will be times I will not follow the media/boards and I don't indulge in excessive behind-the-scenes watching.
Even if I would do so, where does one find the channel "Telepathy"; I have never encountered it, neither in the "audio" nor in "subtitles" menu. So it is all about hear say and whom do I trust, the accuser or the accused?
I think the BTS is very tell tale. you get a real feel for the atmosphere.
My greatest fear as a performer is failing and letting people down, so I would be easy to talk into anything. My agent has a strict rule that if the scene is changed you need to call it in (for example you are booked for an anal and they want to do a dp, or the male talent changes)
this way they can handle it for me and be the bad guys if necessary.
I have never (since I have been with direct models) been badgered about doing anything that was not made clear to me before I accepted the booking.
I think things might be diffrent if I was on my own.
Yes!Immediately. And I always boycott the entire studio whenever I dislike the behaviour of just one of their directors.Kperv proudly displaying his 'Bleeding Heart' badge
The fact that Kami's agents have a routine set up to handle these 'bait and switch' situations is an indication that they aren't all that rare. I would think that it's better for everyone that the agent know right away what is going on when a director changes course mid-scene, since more hardcore stuff should mean a better pay rate for both the actress and the agent. Also, the agent gets to know which directors are prone to this behavior.
However, all agents are not created equal. For example, take T.L. Tycoon, who posted the following on the Corina Taylor thread today:
"I see no problem in a Director offering more money to de-virginize a young Whores Ass-Hole;even if she went on set to do a all vag scene.They can bring an Elaphant in the room.Theres always room to talk money in the American Barter system. She is a non retarded thinking Adult.She can get up at anytime;and tell these guys to Fuck off at any given time."
On the other hand, T.L. did point out that it wasn't fair to Corina's agent that the anal de-virginization was carried out without his/her knowledge. I suppose that one agent can feel empathy towards another agent, after all.
Does it worry me? Yes. Would I stop buying porn made that way? Yes.
How far is it before it is coersion? Offering more money to do something? Well the only reason I go to work is the money. The woman has a right to say no. Watch Jenna Haze in one of those Anabolic movies though. They keep on badgering her to do ATM. She continually refuses. Good for her. If the director doesn't want to film or use the woman at that point I say she and the agent are owed the agreed upon price.
I think part of the reason why you see tinges of coercion or reluctance on camera is because the producers know there's a segment of the viewing public who really likes that shit. I think it bothers me more that there are people who get excited by women doing something they don't want to do or being forced to do something.
Let's face it...there's little reason to NOT edit these comments and outtakes completely out of the feature and the DVD extras unless it's catering to someone's sadistic tendencies.
So do you think porn should receive greater government legislation since you cannot expect these individuals to self-regulate?
I'm pretty sure the Corinna Taylor situation would almost be impossible to realistically prosecute as a rape given her profession and the way it all went down. She wasn't drugged and she wasn't held down, she just caved to pressure. This is a kind of sexual harassment that occurs in the porn world where girls are pressured into doing things they don't want to do because they fear displeasing their employer or being blacklisted within a porn industry.
I hope you're not putting words in my mouth. I just expressed my personal opinion; I was not advocating that laws need to be created to uphold my version of morality. Making something illegal isn't going to change the values that people have.
With that said, I have no problem holding the opinion that coercion and implied non-consent have no place in porn--if not for the ethics of it then for the self-interest in not having the government feel they have to regulate it.
Mercedes Fan. Not talking cars here.... 344 Posts 2/04
Posted - Aug 9 2004 : 7:19AM
Without any real evidence I´d like to say: In dubio pro reo. But most unfortunately I heard different stories from actresses, so I can not be that naive no more. *Sigh*. Porn world was easier when I was still allowed to be naive.
On the other hand, where to draw the line? Physical force? Or would the "force" of money also count? You do know that many many girls start with some photo-shootings (non-nude), then get used to the nice payment that comes along with the shootings and all of a sudden are faced with a situation where it is: "Girl, you either show the camera your naked body, or we do have no more work for you." So they start working for nude/glamour shootings. Next station: Softcore. And finally Hardcore. Doing so, more and more sexual practises are asked from the girls. Or did you really think that all them girlies practise anal sex at home?
Girls talk to each other, girls know each other. At least those who are from the same turf and those who have worked together. It´s a safe bet that some girls did not work with .... (put in a directors name of your choice) because they have heard about bad experiences other girls made with that director.Yeh, worries me big time. Damn, I wish I neva started to think about these things. My porn world isn´t the same anymore since these thoughts entered....
Lt. Myron Goldman said: "Bravo six, this is Bravo two six, over."
So do you think if and when some politician or activist discovers that demanding greater government legislation in porn, since one cannot expect these individuals to self-regulate, is the perfect vehicle to make a name for him/herself?
You mean they don't ?! I'm shocked . Shocked I tells ya !
The sort of coercion and the amount of pressure you or I would deem acceptable is probably the most interesting issue . I can understand , and have to accept , the pressure of showing more or not getting any working . That's an obvious given to some extent , since I actually do watch hardcore . And I've reconciled myself to it . However there are ways and means of attempting to persuade some to do what you want which don't fall into the bounds of coercion . Discussing the request before the day of the shoot is one obvious one , as would be talking to a girl privately - given the right circumstances .
Physical force isn't coercion , at least not in my book , that's rape or at least non-consensual sex . Not an area for any producer to get into , I think . But the pressure that I've heard used most often is the verbal kind , where a director and - invariably - his cronies create an atmosphere in which it is very difficult for the girl to say no . After all this is their set and they are probably a tightly knit group who've been together for some time, while the girl is often young and impressionable and stepping into someone else's playpen . It makes me worry a great deal for actresses who don't have Jewel's balls of brass . And like you , porn is different for me now that I can see at least partially through the veil .
Good , I'm very happy to hear that , even with the qualifier . You don't have to name names , but have you been made aware of producers to watch out for ? On the sly as it were .Yep , that bothers me too . But even more worrying in my eyes are the multitude of anal ( it's normally anal - or harder ) scenes where the girl is either in discomfort or outright pain . For a while I was amazed they didn't edit this out in the process of making the disc . Then it occurred to me that this was left in for a reason . Guess this stuff must sell . And people who love it in no way hate women . Oh no .
Sometimes I think of going girl/girl only in my porn watching habits .
Mercedes Fan. Not talking cars here.... 344 Posts 2/04
Posted - Aug 9 2004 : 10:07AM
Hmmmm, what´s the sort of acceptable coercion? Beats me! And you know why? Because I absolutely believe that there is not an universally valid answer to find for this very question. I´d say it depends on the girls. On their education, on their cultural and ethical backgrounds, on their curiousity and willingness to try out new things, on their very demand to earn big big money in relative short time no matter for any consequences, etc. So, to find out whether or whether may not a girl did things because she felt she had no other choice, you will always have to ask the girls, right? And don´t forget that discussing the scene the day before the filming is often not an option for the directors, because the cast often just arrives hours before the shooting starts, especially when the flick is a gonzo movie.Another interesting aspect is this: If it is a known practice that diretors use to create an atmosphere in which a girl might feel uncomfortable to say "No!", even if she really would like to, wouldn´t the agencies be the ones to help the girls by not sending them to directors who are known to do these things. I mean agencies are responsible for the ladies too, or are they?Homer Jay Simpson said: "Boring!"
Negotiation, beforehand, in a "neutral" atmosphere.Oh my gawd, oh my gawd, every time I hear this, a reflex for grabbing earplugs is triggered.
There is no such thing as having no option, there is only incompetence, unwillingness, idiocy, ... [ask your favourite drill instructor for more words]!!!1 Your $insert_fitting_deficiency is bringing down the whole squad/platoon/company/battalion/brigade/division/corps/army/country/the_civilized_world!!!1
Mercedes Fan. Not talking cars here.... 344 Posts 2/04
Posted - Aug 9 2004 : 10:56AM
If you would have read my post properly, you may would have noticed that in practice (we are not talking theory here) this is often not possible, because the actors do arrive only short time before the filming starts. Time is money.Like I said: If you would have read my post properly and understood what I meant to say, you would not have to go bezerk...
No. I don't believe a politician or activist would touch porn with a 10 foot pole except to shut it down. They do have certain laws concerning indecency that affect porn, but overall most politicians and political activists steer away from porn. Who wants to defend someones right to film anal sex, double penetrations, or gangbangs?
I have been watching more of that lately. But are there any guarantees that G/G performers aren't coerced on site to go farther than they had planned? Not all G/G is like Andrew Blake's glamour stuff.
My no-buy list does contain some prolific studios whose directors I don't trust to be professional and not be total bastards or that I simply don't like.
I don't understand that . The girls all have a list of their dos and don'ts right ? Presumably the director must be familiar with these when he hires the girl ( or am I crediting 'directors' with too much intelligence ? ) and should plan his scenes accordingly . If he knows beforehand that he wants something that the girl isn't willing to give why wouldn't it be in his own interests to try and persuade her beforehand ? - if he's in any way reputable that is and isn't already planning to squeeze her . After all , if the girl shows up and refuses to bend to pressure the 'director' could have a wasted scene on his hands . Watch those dollars burn !
Another question mark must be the agencies some of the girls work for/from . Are there any reputable organizations out there ? If there are , and the girls know they can receive a measure of protection by signing through one of them then the onus is on the girl to sign . The ones who don't are either naive - probably won't last long - or so hungry for money they're unwilling to share their hard earned green backs . Or am I missing something there ?
I think we're much alike in that regard Kperv , and my list is growing ever longer .
When it comes to g/g though my tastes actually help a little because I don't like the kind of *forced* hard edge g/g that many of the main American studios produce - flicks like Evil Pink , and Disturbed <shudder >
Viv Thomas ( and maybe a few others someone's educating me about ) feature real beauties and the BTS footage shows a very healthy relaxed atmosphere . Plenty of joking , smiling , and just girls being girls . Heart warming stuff for a heart bleeder such as myself . ;)
AAMOF, I would not distuinguish by getting attacked directly or indirectly. Or if they are out to eradicate porn from the surface of the planet or bomb it back to the stone ages. But you have a point, the campaigns I am familiar with, are rather about eradication, than regulation.
Interestingly - in Germany - there are anti-porn campaigns launched every other few years by feminists, and they get back up by politicians.
Ask your fellow German ADT'ers if the politicians stay away from porn. In Germany it may not be targeted directly against porn or it's production, but it hurts the business nonetheless (especially in terms of webbased porn).
CMIIW, there are also pressure groups in the USA, which are anti-porn. Granted the leftist/feminist group around Dworkin/MacKinnon does not have it's influence anymore, but the right/religious seem to fill the gap. There is a large pool of politicians who may - at a given time - be inclined to explore the possibility of a "crusade against porn" for gaining air-time on TV.
And now you have addressed the very incentive for the adult business to start presenting/lobbying itself.
Because there will not be too many people stand up defending porn.
How many people will stand up and attend a discussion about porn, when all $anti_porn_crusader needs to do to silence the defender of free speech is saying this, "but you know how many rapes/abuses/coercions of young, cute, naive, innocent girls - it could be our esteemed viewers daughter or sister - happen on porn sets", e.g. You have already "lost" the discussion, respectively the "battle about emotions".
How do you answer this sentence with the present situation, nobody will - emotionally speaking - believe the "black sheep" argument.
A whole other matter if the defender could counter with "Well, there are black sheep everywhere, but the adult business has guidelines, the girls - they are actually women - are well informed and the business not only cares for its employees, but also has mechanism that ensure and guarantee that the ethical guidelines are followed."
The problem for the anti-porn-crusaders so far is, they often have a "nuthead" background (extreme feminists, extreme christians). Let a more "moderate" politician or spokesman discover this issue - in terms of regulation - and he will succeed in terms of gaining airtime. AAMOF, it is astonishing that this issue has not been exploited by a moderate, yet. Because this issue would be a big seller from the tabloids to serious media, and one can present himself as the saviour of the young and innocent.
So money is invested in the production of movies. How does it affect the return of invest, when a label is being affiliated with the trademarks of "rapist" or "abuser"? (As the world is a rotten place, there will be no effect at all. But maybe I am wrong, I'd hope so.)
But how many money goes down the drain if $outspoken_talent says, "go fuck yourself" and leaves the set? Is there a spreadsheet which helps define the break even point between coercion procedure and beforehand negotiation procedure?
I understand that companies have the option to endow their production budget with emphasis on different departments. I understand that there is the option to invest time/money in a decent process of selection/casting/negotiation.
Mercedes Fan. Not talking cars here.... 344 Posts 2/04
Posted - Aug 9 2004 : 12:51PM
Hmmmm, isn´t there - at least a slightly - difference between the general do´s and don´t´s of the girls on one hand and the directors pushing certain do´s to extreme limits on the other hand? I think there is. And the second thing is exactly what I am talking about here. I do not talk about directors burning money by making girls do things they won´t do in general. Take a look around. If a director wants to film an all anal movie he won´t hire a girl who has a "I do not perform anal" attitude. What I am talking about is directors pushing the do´s to more and more extreme limits. Limits the girls may do not even consider to think about, before the shooting starts. Things like double anal, for example. You know, at points like this the director only cares for the general OK from the girl regarding anal. The director thinks it is just one very little step further from anal to double anal and ... here we go: Pressure, stress, the wish to end the scene that already took 2 and a half hours of shooting time and a director that tells the girl: "Hey, you either lemme see at least a couple of minutes double anal or you won´t get any money at all!".I DO believe that there are reputable agencies out there. But not all of them are. AFAIK there are agents that hardly care for the girls. To these kinda agents the girls are walking dollar bills. Or would that be working dollar bills? And as it seems even some of these weirdos manage to last. It´s a sad world.
I think it might happen quite a bit. There is more to coercion than arm twisting - cajoling, coaxing, surprising, and just plain never asking permission can all be coercive. If a performer believes she will not get more work after putting her foot down, she isn't going to. She just lets it happen, and hopes not to fall into the situation again. I don't know of anyone ever being blacklisted - and there are some serious flakes in the pool of performers. Drunks, addicts, divas and disasters of all types - they still get hired if they look good on film. The fear of being labeled "difficult to get along with" is strong, even if the reality is that it wouldn't happen or it wouldn't matter tomorrow, because it does matter that day. Especially if you know you're not a top of the list performer. I think the directors/producers know this. I am absolutely positive that some directors hire talent based on their biddability, and I am certain that some directors take advantage of it when push comes to shove.
My wallet cheers whenever I add another studio to my no-buy list.As Nietzsche would say: I'm getting wood just by reading that.
What are these others?
Viv Thomas looks to have much of what I'm after. I think I've even seen some screenshots with rimming and foot licking. Those are acts I love to perform on a woman and I like to see women doing in my lez porn (though strangely I'm indifferent to watching a guy go down on the women). Are these acts common in Viv movies?
IIRC you're from the UK. What is your favourite webshop for Viv Thomas stuff?
Foot licking isn't really a fetish of mine so I don't really pay it any notice and a lot probably just passes me by . On the Other Hand VT does have many discs devoted to legs and feet so it's a safe bet that you'll find what you're looking for . Analingus ? Hell yes , and some fingering - if that roasts yer turkey too .
Right you are , I'm a Brit . There are cheaper stores - but not by much - but the one's I've used are Orgazmik ( ships from Switzerland ) and LezLoveVideo ( US based ) . LezLove have some titles in explicit edits which aren't available in the UK due to contracts - with Playboy UK ? - and they're fantastic . That's a good reason for ordering from them . Sandy Babe Abroard for example : very expensive but worth every penny and more . It's long , and has the best looking cast I can ever remember seeing . Top stuff .
Both those sites were reliable and discrete . Which works for me .
You'll get no argument there . Sure there's a difference , and it's entirely in the performer's favour .Not so sure about that , as I've heard some interesting tales ...Now that scenario sounds all too believable , makes me wonder if it's fact or fiction . ;) The difference between anal and double anal ? Probably best measured in doctors bills ( sorry Kimi , that's not a nod in your direction , just a sad reality that the DAGGIES crowd seem to miss/ignore ) . For a 'director' to think there really was little difference he'd have to be pretty unaware . Perhaps though , as you say , these girls need to define more rigorously their dos and donts so any area for 'directorial confusion' can't occur ? Though Kami's system sounds the safest so far .
Add to the above mix the facts that the men are anywhere from 10-20 years older than many actresses, have probably known each other and worked together for years (and will in the future), and are physically taller/stronger than most young women, and you get what could become an intimidating atmosphere. Combine this with the fear that KimiLixx says that many actresses have of being labeled 'difficult', and its a scenario for some subtle, or even overt coercion to be applied when the opportunity arises.
Frankly, the only way to handle these situations, from what I can see, is to have an agent like Kami's, who wants to know the minute a director starts deviating from the original arrangement for a scene. I bet that keeps a lot of these loose cannon directors on the straight and narrow. Expecting most of the individual women to sort out these thorny situations for themselves is wishful thinking.
From my years of working in corporations, there are simply individual men out there who are predators (and I don't mean in the sexual sense). If they can take advantage of someone, particularly someone younger and weaker, they will. They only stop in their tracks when someone who they respect (usually older, more powerful and male), or someone who can cost them money, steps forward.
Sorry if I sound a bit negative, I don't mean to, but I've run into two or three 'Vince Vouyers', albeit corporate style. They exist in every industry, I'm afraid.
Sounds perfect. Consider my turkey well and truly roasted.
I've ordered from Orgazmik before. Good if pricey store. Do LezLoveVideo have edits that are more explicit than Swiss Orgazmik? IIRC LezLoveVideo only ships the discs internationally, not the cover jackets. Is this correct? Cases are unimportant but I'd want the jackets as well.
--
On topic: A performer's union would IMHO be a good idea. I know 'union' is a dirty word in the US, but I still think it would be a good idea if it could come together. I don't know who would have enough clout to get it going though. The union could setup some guidelines of conduct and certify or at least publicise ratings of agents, studios and directors.
And Kami's agent's insistence on the models not accepting any change from the previously agreed upon scene without the agent's concent is spot on. Of course the agents need to be trustworthy for it to work right.
Don't worry I know exactly what you're talking about , as I've watched - very warily - individuals just like those you describe . Bullies are everywhere and sometimes these idiots never really do grow up .LezLove only have explicit edits of a few series and they're noted as such on the site . You're right that they don't send the artwork with the discs ( God alone knows why ) but then again you can't get these particular discs anywhere else , so there's nowhere better to order from . If you're thinking of trying Viv Thomas out then I'd recommend reading what Bono and Joey Star have to say : they're the guys who's advice I followed . ( just to make it clear none of Orgazmik's VT discs are available on LezLove in extended form , but LL has some discs not for sale at all on Orgazmik )
Still wanking after all these years. 8082 Posts 10/00
Posted - Aug 10 2004 : 7:50AM
Thanks for the recognition.
Bit off topic I apologize but have you seen "Sex Wives and Videotape" yet? It's a masterpiece of modern porn.
As for the bullying directors I agree. However I must recognize I still watch Pierre Woodman's DVDs although I hate the way he treats the girls (stopped watching his casting and superfuckers series for that very reason...). So in a way yes I'm a big hypocrite...
No I haven't seen that one yet , is it a b/g feature ? I've only watched one b/g from VT so far called Sex ANALyst featuring the lovely Sammy Jane all dolled up to the nines . She's a freekin' babe , and the action - though slow - isn't all that bad . What makes Sex Wives and Videotape a masterpiece , in your opinion ?
[Link]
Pleasant Man Deactivated User
7 Posts 8/04
Posted - Aug 10 2004 : 5:26PM
You don't have to be an industry insider to know the answer to this. Just look at the general tone of the product out there. The moneyshot is no longer the simple cumshot. The moneyshot is now the moment where the woman in the scene look uncomfortable and pushed farther than she wants to go. Anyone who denies this is either delusional or indulging in some very transparent CYA.
Still wanking after all these years. 8082 Posts 10/00
Posted - Aug 13 2004 : 4:20AM
I enjoyed the Sex Analyst, very good movie but more a collection of scenes.
Sex Wives and Videotapes is more like a very good regular mainstream movie, but with hot sex thrown in. It's mostly B/G but there's an excellent G/G scene at the beginning (it gets interrupted and becomes G/G/B at one stage) There's also the delicous Mia Stone. It's been some time since I first saw it so I'll have to rewatch it to give more comments, but it's definitely the finest and most acomplished porn I have seen in many years. The only movie I think would compare (as intelligent porn) is John B Root's ""Le principe de Plaisir" (Marc Dorcel).
I guess the strongest coercion would be the U.S. military giving you a rifle and forcing you to kill a man or rot in prison, that coercion is legal beacuse after 18 you better not be put in a situation to be coerced. Any verbal coercion in america must be legal unless you threaten the person with bodily harm. I've tried to get girls to do all kinds of shit, admittedly not for money, these were girls of all ages, and believe me plenty of them refused the nasty acts I wanted performed. I don't want to reinforce any theory which does not hold a woman responsible for her actions, PERIOD!! I've been propsitioned by gay dudes before and I WALKED AWAY, believe me it wasn't hard (no pun intended). How do you convince a girl to take two dicks up her ass????? I can barely get my girlfriend of 4 years to do it, and believe me I've shelled out over $1000 on her stupid ass!!! Money is the key!! They aren't being coerced by the producers, directors, or actors. They are being coerced by the greenbacks!!!!! That's capitalism baby, we're all coerced by money!!!
P.S. I watched the behind the scenes for Cumfart Cocktails again last night and noticed when tyla wynn was talking about how sore her ass was, and really begging Jake to have Brandon go easy on her ass!! Make a long story short Brandon did not go easy on dat ass, and her discomfort does make the scene better, at least for me?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?
Thanks for the tip Joey . I'm thinking about trying Simply the Best but I'll do a 'compare and contrast' . Ta .$1000 ? 4 years ? Hey big spender !ditto . But I wasn't getting fucked at the time while surrounded by all the blokes mates . I'm guessing you weren't either .Yeah I can see that angle . Still , some people are more easily manipulated than others . The weak and the strong . Do you really think we should just wash our hands of all judgment and say " well that's life" ? Threats , implied threats , and various different forms of intimidation all skate just this side of legal . Doesn't make them right though , does it .
[Link]
Spew Deactivated User
Bend over for the rod and staff of Jesus! 334 Posts 7/04
Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous? 4283 Posts 4/00
Posted - Sep 10 2004 : 12:41PM
Let's face it - I'm not absolving the directors from following general moral good ethics. But what a girl allows to happen is as much her responsibility as anyone else's. That goes all the way to doing some research about her 'career'. Find out which directors have histories of doing stuff that girls don't like - and then DON'T work for them. The entire time I was performing, I made sure that I had access to a part-time job. Whether it was doing extra work in mainstream, or babysitting, or waitressing or whatever - I had access to income so that I never felt pressure to take a job based on needing money at that point in time. I knew within a week of entering the adult business that Max Hardcore was a director I would never work for. Again, I'm not saying it's cool for directors to disrespect the talent. I hate directors who do that. But I'm tired of people who are constantly looking for others to take care of them and look out for them.
*I* was lucky enough to know someone who had already worked for Max Hardcore - she didn't seem upset about how she was treated or anything, but what she told me grossed me out. If I had any ideas of still working for him after that, the first time Max introduced himself to me at the World Modeling office, Jim South told me, in a whisper in his cute texan drawl, "Honey, you don't want to work for him, I'll find you something you'll like." That pretty much did it for me, when your agent - who would make money if you did it - tells you he knows it's not for you. Hey, don't do it.
