I am too much of a moron to grok this, but this is because I am a male chuvinistic pig - a walking dildo, as Solana put it.

I don't put smilies here, because this is actually a position of a certain kind of feminists.

Usually I despise violence, but sometimes I have these strange fantasy of locking up a feminist spouting such phrases in a fighting cage together with a leather clad gay wrestler.

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In compiling my list, I talked about 1990. Was the industry churning out 3,000 videos/films a year THEN? Duh!

Lindi, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, trying to cover for you, as it were, because I couldn't otherwise understand how a moderator of this forum could come off as that naive. Well, if you're really 48, then your cover is gone.

And while I technically mistook one of your earlier posts for dumbblonde, my initial gut feeling about your take on Nina's 'defensiveness' was correct.

The fact that most films/videos that have ever come out didn't make my "Progressive" list does not mean that the rest are reactionary. Most simply don't matter enough or have the gravity to qualify, one way or the other, as 'feminist' or 'misogynist.'

My dictionary defines misogyny as hatred of women. Hatred is a pretty strong term, not to be confused with 'mildly disparaging.' And no, most US porn films are not misogynist. [I've viewed well over 10,000 different XXX-rated vidoes since 1983 and can swear to that.] Annoying, can-do-better, certainly. And that certainly is true despite the fact that there has been an marked increase in misogynist porn since the first Dubya Administration. That's not surprising: censorship tends to make for a more reactionary product.

But what is silly is for disappointment with that trend to lead to misplaced sympathy for Prof Chyng Sun and Co. And make no mistake, it is Sun as RADICAL feminist, not feminist per se, that gets her justifiably tarred with the Dworkinite brush.[After all, both Nina and I are both feminists, just the liberal/socialist kind]. Leeo, Sun identifies with the 'wacko, old-school' radical feminists, and I outlined a simple litmus test in an earlier post where she could disassociate herself from Dworkin/MacKinnon.

She has failed to do so. Big surprise...

Edited by - Sheldon on 2/5/2005 7:28:25 AM

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Well, let me try again, just for the heck of it:

Although there may have been a small upturn in the number of prosecutions of hardcore pornography since Bush took office, indeed the far right was quite bitter that the Prez wasn't as good as his word in hunting us all down & killing every one of us with a handicam & a sticky, three-quarter empty bottle of Astroglide.

(And no, Lee, to my knowledge, the state has yet to send any "Safe Sex Gestapo" specifically looking to see that we all had donned our safety goggles & radiation suits. There was, however, right around the time the guidelines were released, a brief but interesting spike in police visits to known porn studios & locations to make sure proper filming permits had been secured. To consider this "harassment," though, would be quite a stretch -- they came by one of my shoots, and were ultra-polite, non-disruptive & not overly nosey)

In fact, if one is to employ but a modicum of perspective, it becomes clear that the overall desensitization of the American psyche towards violence against EVERYBODY, women included, has been on an upward swing since long before Clinton or even Reagan. This sort of thing isn't born in the relative New York minute of one presidential term, by any means.

One glance at the ultra-rough arm of classic '70s porn is proof of this; and we're talking porn that was created immediately following the battles won over DEEP THROAT, etc, which heralded an unprecedented era of freedom of speech for Americans, especially those obsessed with sex.

In fact, it's much eaiser to construct a simple cause and effect arc linking increased freedom of speech with increased, as those terrifying, cloven-hooved radical fems among others like to call it, "hate speech." Which, unfortunately, is something the right wing has taken great pleasure in shoving in our faces, as if we were this week's hapless model for PINK EYE vol. 32 ...

Does my observation of this imply in any way that I advocate restrictions on free speech "for the common good" or any other reason? Absolutely not, by no means.

What I do advocate is that every American who enjoys his right to free speech start taking responsibility for its affect on those immediately around him (actually, that already falls under the proscription against falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded theater) & on society.

Unfortunately, I suspect a terminally lazy & selfish public, who can't even be bothered to painlessly exercise the right to vote that people around the world are still willing to die to try to achieve, aren't going to take this responsibility very seriously either, especially if they happen to be reaping significant financial rewards through their irresponsibility.

Sadly, something very bad that affects everyone will have to happen, I suspect. That, unfortunatelly, is human nature -- even Peter Parker had to lose Uncle Ben to figure out what should be a simple equation (smirk).

And as to Professor Sun's affiliation with what my old boss Goldstein referred to as the "Feminazis," I am still waiting for some -- any, really -- actual professional or personal information that would even place her and Dworkin in the same Vegan restaurant. If there is, I will stand corrected on that point, though indeed most of us have affiliated ourselves at some point with an extreme cause that after a few decades of growing wiser we now cringe over.

Me, I used to be into goth ...

Hell, I think she was sloppy to merely hold up BANG BUS as an example of the msyogynist crap that was around at AAE; I fantasize Khan Tusion in a whiteface & purple Joker get-up lipping his phallic cigar & drawling in his best Jack Nicholson, "Heh, wait'll she gets a load of ME!"

And hey, if she was really out to take down porn, I'm sure interviewing a cross-section of actresses present whose daily working conditions include dealing with the demands of an atrocity-hungry public would have served her far better than expending two hours interviewing an erudite & enlightened professional spokesperson who obviously was used to dealing with academia.

BTW, I'd like to make it known that I DON'T think mysognynist porn has absolutely no right to exist. There's some Max Hardcore in my porn collection, which I don't watch very often, but hey, every once in awhile ... what makes Max more acceptable to me than this current trend is that not only was his work considered far out of mainstream tastes, it always presented OBVIOUS FANTASY SCENARIOS as opposed to the sniggering, fratboy, "tourante" attitude that gonzo has become rife with.

Though it might have taken prosecution by an L.A. district attorney to inspire it, Max has also for a couple of years now put a prominent disclaimer at the beginning of every show for the slow learners pointing out that his work is fantasy and no one was actually harmed in the making of it. Have NOT noticed anything like THAT on any these neo-mysog gonzo studios' tapes ...

(geez, if I keep typing much longer Steph or Drew will probably send me a bill for the bandwitdh :) Night, all)

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The pattern that I see, Sheldon, is that when someone does not agree with you, you attempt to dismis them with sub-clever ad hominum attacks, ("This Sun that shed's no light", "I was trying to cover for you"). This smacks of someone unaccustomed to making his case to his intellectual equals (or betters), uncomfortable with having his ideas challanged, and inarticulate when defending them.

I don't know if anyone has taken the time to put the good doctor's name into google and browsing the results. I have, and I can't tell from what's available online whether or not Dr. Sun believes that penetration equals rape, or that all explicit depictions of sexuality are intrinsicly harmful to women or our culture at large, or whether or not she ever reads a dirty book and touches herself, (but since she's a neighbor, I'll make a point of asking her.)

But regardless of what anyone thinks (or thinks they think) about her politics on sex, gender and/or porn, Dr. Sun has written many lucid articles regarding potentially harmful effects the uncritical acceptance and comsumption of media on individuals and our society as a whole. If I might presume to read Dr. Sun's mind, I expect she might say something like "It's not *just* television, they're not *just* cartoons, it's not *just* porn."

-T.C.

Edited by - TonyC on 2/5/2005 9:45:37 AM

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"Since then, that list is well over 100 (lots of Adam & Eve stuff there, as you can well imagine)."

I apologize for not including that part of your previous post in my quote, but I, at least, recognized that the addition of 30 odd movies over the past 15 years made your claim more, not less ludicrous. Since you cavil at my 3,000 movies, let's assume that the industry put out a mere 100 movies a year for those fifteen years. That's 1,500 movies, and since you started with 70 and ended up with 'well over 100,' something on the order of 40 to 50 made it onto your list. So, does something like 40 to 50 out of 1,500 sound like a majority to you? It sure doesn't to me.

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Edited by - respect on 2/5/2005 1:13:01 PM

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Myk

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Edited by - lindi on 2/5/2005 3:38:24 PM

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The reason? Fear that said product might inspire resolute opposition to the status quo.

Again, if tots shouldn't watch Disney cartoons because they're inappropriate, what cartoons ARE appropriate for them? Any? Does the professor outline what kind of cartoon she thinks is OK? If not, does that not resonate with the anti-porn tendency to avoid specifying what is 'erotic' as opposed to pornographic?

Gee, some supposedly pro-porn posters here are giving Prof. Sun the benefit of the doubt. Do I sense a fan club about to be formed?

Note to TonyC: I was the first one here to bring up Sun's work on Disney, and I got that by "googling" her name. I have debated professors at panels I organized (see my prior posts on this thread), so I'm quite accustomed to debating.

But I don't suffer fools gladly, so as not to encourage them. I take a dim view of people who ought to know better. If all I do is make a clever pun out of someone's name, I must be in a charitable mood.

Edited by - Sheldon on 2/5/2005 3:53:10 PM

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The type of misogyny that you appear to be expecting and then not finding - open hatred of women , and a determination to keep a good girl down - isn't what I'd attribute to most porners . From what I can tell the issue is more of a casual , fratboy , sort of off hand contempt . It leads to egg throwing and other preschool forms of humiliation , but it's not a focused rage . But then I'm a long way from being "in the know" .

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So, you think Jeff Steward makes his Gag Factor's as a protest against censorship?

I bet he makes them because there's a market for them. Prof. Sun is simply observing that this market exists, is asking why this is so, and what sort of images/portrayels of women are presented to his viewers. Furthermore, Gag Factor customers aren't buying these titles because they want to take a stand against censorship. Why they buy them and enjoy them is worth someone taking a look at.

BTW, I'm 45.

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The Gag Factor market did not exist in any sizeable degree when Clinton was in office. Interesting how that market shows up big time when Bush/Ashcroft takes over, dont'cha think?

Censorship, if it doesn't drive folks underground, certainly points them in that direction. The more creative and humanistically-inclined are less likely to want to stick around in such an environment than the angry types like Lizzie Borden and the more recent incarnation of Rocco Siffredi. Hence, that type of material stands out more, by default.

One reason why censorship of expression is a bad thing is precisely because it leads to less truth, less beauty and more conformity.

Lee O: You are correct - throwing eggs is not what I would call misogyny. It's not sexual assault or job discrimnation, two biggies on the misogynist/patriarchal agenda. It's silly high-school cliquishness, period.

Progressive porn: showing a woman in charge in an approving manner; going out of one's way to explore an issue of justice. Examples: most of the Chuck Vincent comedies of the 1970s/1980s, Cecil Howards' melodramas, Damiano's "The Devil in Miss Jones", and I'll add the perhaps obligatory nod to Femme Productions and the Nina Hartley "How To..." series. My own favorite is Hal Freeman's "Shades of Ecstasy"(Hollywood Video, 1982), featuring debut feature performances of Janey Robbins, Karen Summer, Misty Dawn, Kimberly Carson, Desiree Lane and Tom Byron. The women are factory workers rebelling against a mean boss (Ron Jeremy). They succeed in removing him as boss, take over the drape factory, and elect a new manager.

Did somebody say "socialism"?

Hope that helps.

Edited by - Sheldon on 2/5/2005 6:14:24 PM

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What is a fantasy scenario and what is a realistic scenario? Depends on the consumer's view of reality.

However, even fantasy films like "The Lord of the Rings" are ideological.

Max Hardcore's work "encourages people to disregard others' pain for one's own pleasure" (Prof. Sun), right?

Edited by - respect on 2/7/2005 8:36:12 AM

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But keep debating ladies and gentlemen, I love an interesting discussion.

Jacco

ps And if you think there were no movies like Gag Factor 20 years ago, check out some Scandinavian or German porn from that time.

Edited by - jacco on 2/7/2005 6:32:52 PM

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b. Yawn, yawn, it must be wonderful to be so worldly & jaded to believe that indeed there's nothing new under the sun, good or bad, that the entire human race and nature itself is in a state of perpetual stasis ... methinks the Atom Bomb blew up that notion, yes? No, yes, no?

Victoriania, Pompeii frescoes, blah blah blah ... literature and illustration does not involve the use of real people; & as for those quaint old silent underground porn movies, I've seen plenty of porn shorts from the dawn of film and never seen anything like Max, etc. The point being made on one side of this debate is not the existence but PROLIFERATION of this stuff to the point where it's crowding other stuff off the shelves, as opposed to highly dicey underground publications that get their authors thrown into the Bastille for the the majority of the remainder of their lives.

c. Who cares what abborhent acts you filthy Europeans do to each other, anyway? Europe lost all relevance when Kraftwerk broke up, Truffaut died and Johh Lydon moved to Venice Beach.

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I'll redact the thread to its obvious conclusion.

Yes.

Myk

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So I guess you're not a fan of Ben Dover, Luc Besson, Jess Franco, Dario Argento or other paragons of European culture then?

Jacco

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It's actually a well written article. I wouldn't say that there is "extremism" in that article. Although it is clear the author agrees that porn does "dehumanise" or "objectify women".

I do agree to this quote that Caitluin Hall made:

"Maybe the problem is that pornography is unquestionably targeted toward men - the woman's pleasure is always incidental, the man's always instrumental. Admittedly, a large proportion of porn involves sex acts that are only physically gratifying to the man involved. But that's not really so surprising - it's a case of art imitating life. Because the people who consume porn are overwhelmingly male, the object of most such films is male orgasm - on- and off-screen."

In a sense, she is already giving a good sound case, that pornography is male orientated, and designed (a good portion of it) to cater for a male audience. The orgaism or pleasure factor should always be used as an example that pornography is outbalanced, with males portrayed as the receivers and beneficiaries of pleasure. Porn is in overkill at the moment. With hundreds of starlets that making the same "fake" moans accompanying with fake looks etc.

65 guy cream pie for example, for one Ariana Jollee put such a feat of endurance that should be commended alone just for that – also the fact she looks “normal”, with out the blonde bimbo attachment, gets an extra plus. But regardless 65 guy cream pie is a male orientated fantasy. We only assume that Ariana had 65 or more orgaism during that shoot, or one continually long orgaism. It would be great, no awesome to see 65 girl "orgaism" DVD, where we get to see each of the women extremely aroused, naturally "lubricated" - with full close ups having real orgaism. Could that ever happen? Would mainstream society, or a male dominated porn industry allow that to happen? Also, how would that sell?

Porn is in long need of a overhaul.

Also I am a male, I do watch porn.

Edited by - lorein on 2/8/2005 6:59:36 PM

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I can't be the only male in the world who enjoys giving orgasms, or there would be a thousand women lining up at my front door right now. (Just a moment, I'll check ........ No - they definitely are not there )

I am just as much a part of the male dominated market as any other guy.

A genuine question for the female contributors to this thread: Do "creampie" shots have any erotic value for you?

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Regarding 65 guy cream pie.

There could be an interested paradox with that movie, because I know of women that fantasize about being covered in sperm. But, never the less it's the men that are getting off, women are just the pleasure givers. That's not a good thing.

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Edited by - Rockstone on 11/15/2005 7:50:33 AM

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