I'm interested. So interested, in fact, that I'm thinking I might buy this very soon. I'm going to look into it a bit more, but it definitely seems like the kind of thing I'd be into reading. Thanks Savoy. The youtube blog looks good too. I'm about to watch the Brandon Iron interview.
Just ordered it from Amazon. I went for the cheapest shipping option so it'll be here in about a million yrs. But when it does arrive I'll let y'all know how it is.
Oh forgot to mention that this arrived maybe a week or two ago. When I finish the book I'm reading currently, I'll start this one. If anyone's still interested, I can tell you more about it once I get going.
KB, did you get around to reading the book? I still follow his blog and he linked an interesting article he wrote about his experience within the industry:I'm still dumbfounded by the number of men who want to see women in pain and humiliated. And that they see nothing wrong with that desire, really angers me. Of course, there's much more if you follow the link and read...
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - Feb 9 2010 : 1:14AM
^Not surprised by it at all. As politically-incorrect as it may be to say, I doubt most other men are surprised by it either.
He mentions something else about the simple act of watching porn as being a negative one:I wish it were that simple. I'm sure a lot of men carry around this hate with them always. And I guess it would help if I included an actual link, right? ha
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - Feb 9 2010 : 3:38AM
If the intent of the author was to redeem himself in the writing of this article, then he does a very unimpressive job of it. However, the examples he gives of how he was instructed to make his footage as unoriginal as possible does only further prove why much of porn sucks now. As for his comments regarding the treatment of women in porn, do we realistically expect any different? This is an industry, run and supported primarily by men, in which attractive young women willingly engage in a variety of sexual acts for the purposes of male entertainment and the stimulation of male sexual arousal; an industry in which both male fantasy and libido are allowed to go unfettered by societal restraints. What's surprising is that people are actually surprised that this type of behavior is common in such an industry. Call it hate; call it disappointment; call it shame; or call it simply innate male behavior. However we attempt to rationalize or analyze it, it all boils down to one simple equation: Young attractive female giving sex + Male dominated environment= Female sexual exploitation We can discuss the sociological and psychological reasons for this until the cows come home. But ultimately, that's just the way it is. This is indeed why men watch porn, as the author himself even realizes, even in regards to himself.
Very interesting interviews on that YouTube link, and the book looks great as well. Thanks :) Regarding the degradation of women in porn, I wrote this in the eroticism and enjoyment thread but nobody really commented on this theory; I'd like to know what people think of this theory... I think as we grow tired of preprocessed, formulaic, mass-produced porn, there's a trend towards the real, the genuine. And that's where we see all these painful anal, premature ejaculation in a scene, creamy pussy threads, etc. It's because they all give us a taste of the real, the genuine humanity of the actors involved. It's just an awful shame that some of the only moments when we can find genuine emotion from the actresses is when they're in pain. It's just my theory, that it's not so much the pain involved that gets people off, but the reality of the sensation; the thrill of seeing something that can't be faked. I think if we were to create more scenes where the women were truly enjoying themselves, we would see less interest in some of the more sadistic motifs.
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Feb 10 2010 : 4:25AM
Despite what realtip obviously wants to believe, most studies on the violent pornography find that the majority of men are not 'innately' turned on by the combination of sex and pain. S&M remains a minority taste (a taste that I've enjoyed on occasion as well but don't feel the need to project onto the rest of the male population as justification). Degradation and 'dirtiness' are another matter and that explains the obsession with facials and anal, but then the hardcore raincoater crowd and that particular brand of all-American sexual hypocrisy distorts the whole market.
FWIW, there are also studies that report that watching porn leads to acts of bestiality, or that heterosexual men who watch heterosexual porn are actually gay. I mention these to say that many porn "studies" turn out to be highly questionable in their authoritative credibility, and many appear to be designed to support one agenda or another. This is not to say that I dismiss all research on the subject that is rational, reliable, and unbiased. Just that we shouldn't believe everything we read. Edited by - realtip on 2/10/2010 10:27:14 AM
The book is awesome. Sam Benjamin (nom de porn Sam Stern) has a pretty breezy writing style and the graphic design of the book is quite fun. I bought the PDF version off his website, and was delighted to find he was responsible for "Luckiest Kid on Earth" which I felt was one of the greatest amateur tapes I had the pleasure of seeing (didn't hurt it had Kate Frost in it, whom I had a porncrush on at the time), and I regret having lent it to my college roommate -- haven't seen it since.
Jacco - The article isn't about the implications of degradation porn on society as a whole, but about this director in particular and his thoughts on what he experienced firsthand.
Assuming this were inherently the case (which I don't believe it to be), the attitude of "that's just the way it is" is pretty lame. Should we just say "that's the way it is" about all troubling social problems, and then carry on because it's "innately" in us to do it? Should we not take an interest in finding out about social patterns (in all their complexity and contradictions) and then try to find ways to resolve problems, make progress, and educate people?
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - Feb 11 2010 : 5:35PM
^As I said, we can discuss the sociological and even psychological reasons behind these matters at length. I actually think it can be a worthwhile and intriguing endeavor to look into these issues, and I am not opposed to doing so. But at the same time, I also consider myself a realist. Men like sex, and men like being in positions of power. I know I'm generalizing here, but I doubt there are many exceptions. The author admits that he entered the porn business because he wanted to "score with curvy women who didn’t see a roll in the hay as too absurd a way to make their rent," which is the reason that mostly all other straight men decide to go into porn. When you place horny sex-seeking men in positions of power of authority over attractive young and often vulnerable women whose job it is to have sex, then it is not unreasonable to predict that exploitative relationships between men and women will result. The author further says that he readily engaged in the "punishment" and "denigration" of the women in his scenes (whatever that means), and that it made him feel good, even though part of him found it unacceptable. Why did something he found regrettable also give him pleasure? He seems to believe that it has something to do with anger and vengeance. But I don't think I agree with that in all cases. While I don't believe in the old "boys will be boys" excuse, there are some aspects of characteristic male behavior that it just doesn't behoove us to deny.
I work in porn and I know many people who do and none of them are in it for this reason. I am talking about people who are not performers. It might be different in the US, I know less people there, but I doubt it. Jacco
You know, when I got this book and realized it didn't have all the cool cartoons like it does in the online version, I kinda felt ripped off, so I haven't read it yet - out of spite... or... something. I'll get to it though I swear I will.
Did you "look inside"? I guess not. :) Jacco - I'm just an observer, but it seems that in Europe attitudes differ greatly. In the US we somehow manage to be incredibly juvenile and/or uptight about pornography.
Hi real, I understand were you are coming from but I just want to mention that many men have offered other reasons to go into porn which include sex. I also want to mention that the author's reasoning to enter porn really does not lead me to think he would be abusive. Heck a ton of guys like women but they are not into abusive porn. I really don't find this reasoning as a sign of him abusing women. Heck, that could be my reason to go into porn and I have complete disdain for abuse titles involving women. Since I don't take femdom seriously, I don't mind female dominated porn at all.
It is intesting that you mention facials. I for one CERTAINLY do not watch facials to degrade women. I never thought of facial as a means to humiliate a women. Unfortunately, many of my male counterparts think otherwise. Secondly, I don't see what's the fascination with anal? I don't mind seeing it in movies, but it is not a requirement and I could really care less if a woman does it.
I think you may be right. For one, most American juvenile porn fans can not comprehend that generally porn stars do not treat sexuality in real life the same way they treat sex on film. If you are dating a porn star to fuck her the first night, you will probably get the same response of rejection that you would from “normal" women. Can you explain to me why many juvenile men and some women can not grasp this concept?
About all things sexually it seems. It still baffles me sometimes how different the US is in that aspect. Things that don't even make my mother blink cause national uproar over there. Gay marriage, prostitution, pornography, sex education, in another thread I see that a lot of Americans have a problem with open marriages. Chill out people, live and let live. Jacco
Ok, I understand, and I think we're basically on the same page. I agree with most of what you say other than the generalizations or the implication that it's "natural" for men to behave in certain ways (you might not actually be trying to say that). But yes, there are gendered patterns of behavior that should cause concern, and in my opinion they're socially constructed. Edit: c.l.a.r.i.f.i.c.a.t.i.o.n. Edited by - Gore Gore Girl on 2/12/2010 8:05:31 AM
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - Feb 12 2010 : 3:35PM
^I agree that a large part of it is due to social constructs and the ways that gender is socialized into us from infancy. But to change all that, we'd have to change not only current culture, but also millennia of cultural mental programming.It is due to the widely-held belief that women who work in the sex industry are women of low repute, and do not hold the same moral values as "normal" women. Before everybody flames me, I'm not saying that I either agree or disagree with this. I'm just answering a question. Don't shoot the messenger, even though we all already know this is how people think. Porn itself even capitalizes on this.What other reasons are there for a heterosexual man to consciously decide to enter porn? I'm curious about this because, in my entire life, I've never heard a guy say that he wanted to go into porn for any reason other than to live out his fantasies of getting to fuck sexy pornstars, either on or off camera. I've even heard guys who are in the industry say this. For example, I once read an interview with Erik Everhard where he said that was the reason he got into it. He's not the only one. If I were going to do it, that would be my reason. So when I read that it was the author's reason, he just sounded, to me, like every other guy in the world who wants to go into porn. As someone who works in the industry outside of the U.S., what are other reasons for straight men deciding to do it, even as non-performers?In many ways, the U.S. is still a very puritanial country. Consider our history and who is credited who founding this country- and why they came here in the first place- and that would explain a lot. Old beliefs die hard, which goes back to my previous statement about having to change the entire culture to change this way of thinking. But I have to admit that the open marriage thing just sounds crazy. If you want to screw other people, then why even bother to get married? Edited by - realtip on 2/12/2010 3:47:33 PM
Considering how much things have changed over mere decades, I don't think it's a waste of time to try. In fact, I think it's imperative, and put it into practice on a daily basis. Even you can make little changes and make a big difference - it just depends whether you care enough, and whether deep down you actually want things to change. I think at the core of this is who feels most threatened by particular changes.
Erik Everhard started out as a performer and for performers fucking pornstars is the job. For most of us it's the same reason as getting any other job, we just need to make a living. And guys who just want to bang hot girls are certainly not the guys I would hire. You do realize that a lot of if not most of the work is not in front of a camera? We have sales people, editors, secretaries, graphics designers, computer programmers and a lot of other jobs you can find elsewehere too. Most of those people will have little or no contact with the models anyway. Our office looks like any other office. I spent most of my time behind a computer, like millions of other people do. There is nothing special about most of our jobs most of the time. Jacco
"Erik Everhard started out as a performer and for performers fucking pornstars is the job. For most of us it's the same reason as getting any other job, we just need to make a living. And guys who just want to bang hot girls are certainly not the guys I would hire. You do realize that a lot of if not most of the work is not in front of a camera? We have sales people, editors, secretaries, graphics designers, computer programmers and a lot of other jobs you can find elsewehere too. Most of those people will have little or no contact with the models anyway. Our office looks like any other office. I spent most of my time behind a computer, like millions of other people do. There is nothing special about most of our jobs most of the time. Jacco" I smell really fat nerdy sour grapes!
Savoy, thanks for the heads-up on this book, added to my reading list. Regarding the whole psychology of "denigrating women in porn." My personal take on it is that all this hyperbole about porn being degrading for women but not so much the same thing when filming gay sex scenes is that the sex ACTS are virtually identical. I've seen gay porn. It has anal (duh), facials, heavy BDSM themes in many cases (Alpha male is Alpha), bondage, flogging, oversized sex toys, etc etc. As the author states in his blog when exposed to shooting gay porn after doing straight porn for many years: "And rather quickly, I came to feel happy that I had—morally, it was another world entirely. The scenarios were still contrived, I admit, and the orgasms were half-hearted, if they came at all. I employed plenty of guys who were there for the money, make no mistake about it; and without exception, the production values stayed amateur. But the shame, rage, and sexual violence that I had come to associate with porn was almost completely absent. That meant something. Gay porn, in fact, was so goddamn simple that it approached a type of Zen beauty. I mean, this was guys taking on guys, in every shape and form imaginable, for the most part in good humor and absent-minded lust. They may have stuck to roles of “tops” and “bottoms,” but in the dressing room, we all seemed equals, on the same team. Everyone laughed at me for being a straight guy shooting gay porn. Some tried to entice me to jump in front of the camera for kicks. But we all laughed about it. We all seemed like friends. The sadness and the degradation I had come to associate with my job, with videotaped sex for money, was suddenly absent." What I think is at work here isn't that what he FILMED was any different. Sex is sex to someone who treats both sexes as equals. He did not. Many do not. I'd even argue that MOST posters on these forums do NOT think a woman is equal to a man. So they feel sorry for the woman performing sex scenes, as if she has no choice or is unable to enjoy it. Or, more physically, that she is INCAPABLE of enjoying anything that looks like pain mixed with her pleasure. But to see a guy doing it..well he's male, of course he can take it. Guys are expected to be hardier, more capable of things. This is sexism in its rawest form. The author even stated that the sex acts were the same. But when done to a woman, he felt it sad and degrading. When done between two men, he found it a fun gig. The problem isn't porn, its outdated stereotypes that place women in powerless, weaker positions in the first place. They believe that a woman is weaker, that she needs to be put on a pedestal as being something greater than just female, that she is 'cleaner' than a man and not capable of possibly enjoying sex so much as to be willing to 'allow' herself to be subjected to multiple ejaculations in her various orifices. In essence, they judge a woman inferior of sexual acts that are perfectly acceptable to a man. When treating a woman as your sexual equal, you suddenly have no issues accepting and encouraging her submissive tendencies...when she wants you to. Its not a judgement of her; its full acceptance. Too may people try to make porn into a "great evil" and in doing so simply fool themselves into thinking there's more at play than simple sexual gratification. Porn isn't that complicated. Edited by - lubenluv on 7/5/2011 11:15:00 AM
The real question is: whatever happened to "Sam Stern"? Is he still in South America, where he vanished some 5 years ago, or did he come back, publish the book about his experiences, and then run back off...? BTW, his website and all links to the book are dead. His YouTube subscription is still active, but he hasn't been on in a while... Who knows?
Well, the question remains: when will Sam stern resurrect his old website (& content, which I loved) jewishcheerleaders.com and come back to the writing fold? Just wondering...maybe you know him, Billy?
Billy... it's been a while since I talked to Sam, he vanished again... did he go back to Latin America to chase the South American dream? Man, I missed those days back in the aughts, when porn was beginning to peak again... Edited by - Johnny Chicago on 11/23/2011 9:56:14 PM
This thread is bizarre. Anyone who calls a facial "degrading" has just outed themselves as a sex nazi. Is that element there within men who WANT facials and other such things to be degrading? Yes. And the enemies of porn will always call it degrading. If a man gets off on something, it has to be degrading to women according to those asswipes. If women feel degraded by porn, they shouldn't do it. That's an individual choice. Seems like every other day on this forum we have people second guessing them and trying to make out like their choices are degrading all of femininity. Which, of course, reveals a lot about the source of this kind of thinking. Edited by - randomprecision on 11/24/2011 1:55:26 AM
Ivy League @ Adult Empire Unlimited
Posted - Oct 10 2009 : 3:03AM
It looks intriguing. I stumbled upon the author on youtube.