Continuation of DVD Poll turned to HDTV talk

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Bill All-Star Member 5334 Posts 6/00	Posted - Jul 4 2004 : 4:34PM There is a thread in the Polls forum that was turning into an HDTV discussion. Rather than allowing that thread to continue to drift well off topic, I've copied the last post, with many questions here, where the conversation can continue. Lee O wrote: Bill wrote: A key's to HD-DVD's success would have to be backward compatibility to lower resolution TV's as well as that ability to play current DVD media. As long as they do that, I don't think that there will be any reason to even sell DVD players in their current format. Click to expand Have the DVD Forum finalised the standards for HD-DVD yet ? There was due to be an announcement made some time soon , but I lost track of exactly when . The issue of backwards compatibility is probably key , like you say , but not at all certain from the competing manufacturers designs . Or at least that's what I remember . There will be the early adopters, like me, who will run out and pay $1,000 for them when the come out (the same price that I paid for my HD-Tivo DVR). But, just like standard DVD, the price will drop rapidly to the point where it will become the norm. Click to expand I don't doubt that that could happen - and who knows , it may well - but it's really dependent on uptake isn't it . If people aren't buying in large enough numbers then I don't see how it can be in the manufacturers interests to try and force the market with cheap equipment in a format people don't want . We'll see though ... Some HD is free and some is at a cost. All of the major networks (other than Fox, who will be broadcasting at 720p in the fall), currently have a lot of HD programming that is free to anyone who can receive it with an antenna. Click to expand I'd be interested to know how this works , if you don't mind . Do the stations all broadcast in a bandwidth specifically set aside for this purpose , one station's timeslot being followed by the next ? Or do they temporarily interrupt their own programming - that can't be right ! There's only a limited range for broadcasts to take place in , as I'm sure you're aware , so it'd be interesting to find out how the US TV stations have managed to maintain their current output , and at the same time introduced some large new transmissions . I don't doubt it's possible (after all , you said it's happening) , but the physics of it has got me baffled . Many of the cable/satellite channels are adding HD versions of their channels. In the case of premium programming, like HBO & Showtime, the HD channel is included with the subscription for that channel. In the case of "basic cable" channels, some of the cable & satellite companies have added an HD tier, which gives the customer all of the basic HD channels for a single charge (about $10 per month) Click to expand Same question again . Well , OK , slightly different . Does this mean that many of the smaller stations have had their bandwidth bought out by the big boys ? Is there a narrowing of the market in the US ? According to the Consumer Electronics Association, they are projecting 5.7 million DTV products to be sold this year. Other than plasma sets, the vast majority of "DTV products" are HDTV's. Click to expand I've got to try and rationalise these numbers in my head ! 5.7 million equates to about 1 million in the UK , hey that's not bad ! Then again , it might be interesting to see exactly how flexible the term 'vast majority' is when it comes to percentages . The public over here are also buying increasing amounts of DTV products , though they're mostly just the same old stuff with digital decoders installed . The sales figures make good headlines though ! :) Well , they did , right up until our digital terrestrial platform collapsed due to lack of subscribers . It seems that as soon as people see HD programming at someone else's house many are ready to jump on the bandwagon. Parties for large events, like the Super Bowl, probably sell as many HDTV's as anything else. Click to expand Yes , I've seen this phenomenon first hand as well , though only with the Widescreen TV invasion . It was slow at first , with plenty of derision from backwards folks ( like me !! ) , but as soon as the mine's bigger than yours attitude comes into play there really is no going back is there . Also , the spectacle of a lying down monolith on it's side is more appealing than the old box somehow . Perhaps the same thing will happen with HD , we'll see . My doubt over HD-TV is largely as seen from an English perspective . There really is no talk about it anywhere mainstream , and the only place you will find it is in AV mags . I've only even seen an HD-TV once , and that was in a specialist shop down in London , there's no sign of any demand for them . Add to that the government's decision to allow a fragmenting of bandwidth distribution to an ever wider range of small channels , and I can't see any plans for HDTV broadcasts on the horizon . Without any programming what will drive the consumer to buy set's , which aren't here anyway , or HD-DVD players to run with them ? And the situation is probably equally stagnant across the continent . Hell , Portugal have just been hosting the European football Cup 2004 ( the second largest football competition , and probably about 6th in all sports ) and they didn't even bother to broadcast in widescreen ! Can America and Japan really go it alone for the time being on HD and expect the profits to come at some future date ? The English market for DVD's is not insignificant ( a fifth if US ) , and the rest of Europe is pretty massive . Will Hollywood studios be able to justify producing discs which can only be sold to a still limited audience and in only 2 countries ? It'll sure be interesting to watch and find out . Click to expand Edited by - Bill on Jul 4 2004 [Link]
Bill All-Star Member 5334 Posts 6/00	Posted - Jul 4 2004 : 5:04PM Lee O wrote: Have the DVD Forum finalised the standards for HD-DVD yet ? There was due to be an announcement made some time soon , but I lost track of exactly when . The issue of backwards compatibility is probably key , like you say , but not at all certain from the competing manufacturers designs . Or at least that's what I remember . Click to expand I don't think that any standards have been finalized. If they decide to go with a format that is not backwards compatible, then I would retract much of what I have written. However, I would be very surprised if they go with a format that is not backwards compatible. I don't doubt that that could happen - and who knows , it may well - but it's really dependent on uptake isn't it . If people aren't buying in large enough numbers then I don't see how it can be in the manufacturers interests to try and force the market with cheap equipment in a format people don't want . We'll see though ... Click to expand What you are failing to take into account is the cross ownership of many of the movie studios and Consumer Electronics manufacturers. That incestuous relationship has a lot to do with the success of DVD. Sony owns Columbia and Toshiba has a relationship with Warner Bros. The sale of their movies (one additional time) is incentive for the corporations to sell the players at a reasonable cost. It's kind of like selling cheap printers in order to sell ink or toner. I'd be interested to know how this works , if you don't mind . Do the stations all broadcast in a bandwidth specifically set aside for this purpose , one station's timeslot being followed by the next ? Or do they temporarily interrupt their own programming - that can't be right ! There's only a limited range for broadcasts to take place in , as I'm sure you're aware , so it'd be interesting to find out how the US TV stations have managed to maintain their current output , and at the same time introduced some large new transmissions . I don't doubt it's possible (after all , you said it's happening) , but the physics of it has got me baffled. Click to expand Each licensed TV station has been allocated addtional bandwidth for broadcasting their digital programming. At some point down the road, the TV stations will turn off their analog signal. At that point, the TV station will have the option of keeping their original channel location and broadcasting digitally on it or just keeping channel that they were given for digital content. It is likely that the majority of the TV stations that are broadcasting in analog on VHF frequencies will probably want to retain their original slot as almost all of the digital channels are broadcasting on UHF frequencies which is more expensive than VHF. The same goes for cable & satellite. There are additional channel slots for the HD versions of channels. The cable companies are spending a lot of money upgrading their networks to digital ones and the satellite companies are putting up more advanced "Spot beam" satellites. Both of these technologies will allow for significantly more programming from their systems. Same question again . Well , OK , slightly different . Does this mean that many of the smaller stations have had their bandwidth bought out by the big boys ? Is there a narrowing of the market in the US ? Click to expand While that is happening, it is not because of the digital conversion. New ownership rules approved by the FCC is allowing a single company to own more stations in a given market. I've got to try and rationalise these numbers in my head ! 5.7 million equates to about 1 million in the UK , hey that's not bad ! Then again , it might be interesting to see exactly how flexible the term 'vast majority' is when it comes to percentages . Click to expand The phrase "vast majority" came from me, not the CEA. I would be very surprised if more than 2 or 3% of non-flat panel (plasma, LCD, etc) digital TV's sold this year were not capable of displaying an HD picture (1080i or 720p). Yes , I've seen this phenomenon first hand as well , though only with the Widescreen TV invasion . It was slow at first , with plenty of derision from backwards folks ( like me !! ) , but as soon as the mine's bigger than yours attitude comes into play there really is no going back is there . Also , the spectacle of a lying down monolith on it's side is more appealing than the old box somehow . Perhaps the same thing will happen with HD , we'll see . Click to expand Surprisingly enough, it seems that the people who already have big screen TV's are the ones who are most likely to jump on board. I think that's because NTSC (especially compressed NTSC from cable or satellite companies) tends to look pretty bad on big screens. HD (ATSC) really looks like you are watching something through a large window. Can America and Japan really go it alone for the time being on HD and expect the profits to come at some future date ? The English market for DVD's is not insignificant ( a fifth if US ) , and the rest of Europe is pretty massive . Will Hollywood studios be able to justify producing discs which can only be sold to a still limited audience and in only 2 countries ? It'll sure be interesting to watch and find out . Click to expand Well, in addition to the 2004 DTV projections, CEA Market Research projects that 9.4 million units will be sold in 2005, 15.6 million in 2006 and 23 million in 2007. If companies can't make money with those types of numbers, then maybe those companies shouldn't exist in the first place. [Link]
Harry Joystick Member 740 Posts 8/02	Posted - Jul 5 2004 : 2:23PM My HDTV is just over 2 years old and unfortunately does not support DVI/HDMI. From what I've read, HD DVD players will not have Component Video out connections, only DVI. Bill, I'm not sure what you mean when you say "backward compatibility" for future HD DVD Players. You might be able to watch standard DVD's viewed through an analog TV but in order to watch HD DVD's in true high def you'll need an HDTV with the latest decoding capabilities. Those of us with older HDTV's may be left out in the cold. [Link]
Bill All-Star Member 5334 Posts 6/00	Posted - Jul 5 2004 : 3:00PM FF>> Button wrote: Bill, I'm not sure what you mean when you say "backward compatibility" for future HD DVD Players. You might be able to watch standard DVD's viewed through an analog TV but in order to watch HD DVD's in true high def you'll need an HDTV with the latest decoding capabilities. Those of us with older HDTV's may be left out in the cold. Click to expand What I meant was the HD DVD playere would need to play standard DVD's (at NTSC resolution) as well as be able to downconvert HD-DVD's to NTSC resolution so that they can be played on older TV's. In order for HD DVD to work, there should really be no need for the movie companies to sell both SD and HD DVD's for a long period of time. On the HDCP issue, I feel for you. But not as much as I feel for people who bought their HDTV's before you did. Had you done any research at all 2 years ago, you would have discovered that the long term future of Component Inputs was bleak. At that point in time, the only correct answers were to either get one of the few TV's with either DVI or Firewire or wait another year. I bought my first HDTV in 1999 before DVI, Firewire, HDMI or HDCP were ever considered. At that time, RCA and Mitusbishi still had proprietary inputs on their HDTV's. Sometime in 2000, the copy protection schemes all started rearing their ugly heads. I held off until 2003 to buy an HDTV for my bedroom because that's when the brand that I wanted finally implemented DVI/HDCP on their 34" sets. That having been said, my guess is that HD-DVD players will have component outputs. However, they will not work at full resolution (all part of the backward compatibility thing). [Link]
Lee O Forearm Trainer mmmmmmm........ after-birth 1193 Posts 8/03	Posted - Jul 5 2004 : 3:44PM The differences between our two countries on technical matters are really weird ! I'd never heard of DVI connections before , but after looking it up it seems these are what we refer to as scart cables . Your HD-TV doesn't have any DVI ( scart ) sockets ? I'm not trying to boast , but my 32inch CRT Sony has 4 scarts , with one being RGB composite . The updated version of the set now has all 4 scarts as RGB . It's amazing how you're technology is far advanced of ours in one area , yet appears to lag in another . That's if I'm right about scarts and DVI cables . The issue of backwards compatibility must be a bugbear for the technical community I'd guess . On the one hand it would allow current DVD owners to buy a new HD-DVD player safe in the knowledge that all those discs they've already bought ( the normal DVD versions ) will still be usable . But on the other hand it kind of limits the progression of the new technology . If I remember correctly the blue ray system of DVD reading will not be backwards compatible , and it's the most advanced of the new DVD formats - or at least it was when I last read up on this subject . Is it possible that in attempting to create a backwards compatible HD-DVD standard the DVD forum will end up producing a new format which represents too small of a step forwards ? Might most consumers not see the point in upgrading , and wait for newer devices which will undoubtedly superseded the new standard HD-DVD - Blue Ray amongst them ? Thanks for answering my questions about HD broadcasts in the US , it all makes far more sense now . The problem I was having was in seeing the American situation through the lens of our own problems . It didn't occur to me that of course over there with you the digital and HD revolutions are probably happening more or less in sync - or at least near enough for the stations and government to make contingency plans for the future . In Britain unfortunately there has already been a digital revolution , and all the pieces are firmly set on the board . The only thing that's happening now is the slow drift of the general population onto digital platforms . Under our conditions ( which for some reason I'd associated with yours ) there's no room for new HD channels . Thanks for clearing all that confusion up ! What you are failing to take into account is the cross ownership of many of the movie studios and Consumer Electronics manufacturers. That incestuous relationship has a lot to do with the success of DVD. Sony owns Columbia and Toshiba has a relationship with Warner Bros. The sale of their movies (one additional time) is incentive for the corporations to sell the players at a reasonable cost. It's kind of like selling cheap printers in order to sell ink or toner. Click to expand Good point , I hadn't really thought about that . And certainly hadn't been aware of the Toshiba -> WB connection . I guess when I'm next flicking through an AV mag I'll take a closer look at some of those bundle deals , and see if all the discs given with Toshiba players are from Warner Brothers ! I like the ink analogy as well , must remember that one . Still , being a lucky bastard , I've managed to find a very cheep ( comparatively ) source of printer ink - about 8 times cheaper than they charge in the high street , the rip off merchants ! Having said that , isn't it possible that not all manufacturers will see the advent of HD-DVD as a fine new enterprise ? The DVD is , I believe , considered an absolute Godsend of fresh revenue for these companies . Why would they want to jeopodise that stream of fresh money ? If even one of the major players feels that way , then there could be trouble . Do you think there's a possibility of a format war taking place over HD-DVD ? As is currently kind of happening with recordable DVD , and once happened with Video cassettes - I was a loser who bought Beta Max . After all , the major manufacturers don't have to reach agreement . And if Sony decides that the proposed standard isn't what they had in mind , who knows what might happen ... I'm sounding pretty down on HD in my posts aren't I . But truth be told I'm not that anti , and some of my points are just me playing devil's advocate . After all it'd be a pretty dull conversation if we all just agreed with everything we each said , now wouldn't it . Edited by - Lee O on 7/5/2004 3:47:33 PM [Link]

Kperv The Cuddler *struck (She slipped) 1818 Posts 1/04	Posted - Jul 5 2004 : 3:48PM I'd guess the HDTV DVI is the same as the DVI in the PC world. That's a digital interface, not analogue like our European SCART. [Link]
Lee O Forearm Trainer mmmmmmm........ after-birth 1193 Posts 8/03	Posted - Jul 5 2004 : 3:55PM Yep , I've just been doing some additional reading , and like you say it does appear to be a different form of connector . It was the similar appearance of scart and DVI cables which confounded me . [Link]
Bill All-Star Member 5334 Posts 6/00	Posted - Jul 5 2004 : 6:02PM Kperv wrote: I'd guess the HDTV DVI is the same as the DVI in the PC world. That's a digital interface, not analogue like our European SCART. Click to expand That's correct DVI stands for Digital Video Interface. SCART is probably more consistent with the S-Video jacks found on US TV's, as far as the way it passes information. DVI keeps the information in an uncompressed digital format until it reaches the TV. The intial thought was that because the data was uncompressed, it was essentially un-copyable in the real-world. That may or may not be correct. But it wasn't enough for Hollywood, who forced the manufacturers to add HDCP (High-Bandwidth Digital Content Protection) to the DVI interface. People who bought DVI equipped TV's before HDCP came along, could be really screwed in the future. Theoretically HDCP is supposed to be turned on for Pay-Per-View programming and nothing else. People who have non-HDCP DVI connectors will not be able to view programming with HDCP turned on. They will have to view that programming, utilizing component connections, at a lower resolution. Nobody has turned HDCP on yet, at least not for real programming. DirecTV (the largest satellite TV company in the US) has turned HDCP on for one of it's barker channels just to let people know that they may have a compatibility problem in the future. Any HD-DVD, will also likely utilize HDCP. So even people who waited until DVI became available could be screwed (such is the life of those of us who live on the "bleeding edge" of technology). There is a new connection that is even more likely to be the connector of the future. It is HDMI (High Definition Multimedia Interface). It looks kinda like the computer end of a USB connector. It carries both digital video and digital audio. The nice thing about HDMI is that it is backwards compatible with DVI. My new HD-Tivo has an HDMI connector. But it comes with both an HDMI/HDMI cable and HDMI/DVI cable. I know of no TV's that currently have multiple DVI or HDMI connections. Although, given the size of the jacks and the fact that HDMI is the newer technology, it is more likely that future TV's will come with multiple HDMI connectors. In the short term future, I think that there will be a market for DVI switchboxes, just like the market for S-Video switchboxes grew with the advent of DVD. [Link]
Kperv The Cuddler *struck (She slipped) 1818 Posts 1/04	Posted - Jul 6 2004 : 3:30AM Bill wrote: SCART is probably more consistent with the S-Video jacks found on US TV's, as far as the way it passes information. Click to expand SCART's a huge connector. It has pins for bidirectional audio and composite and unidirectional RGB. Some TV's with more than one SCART connector support S-Video over the RGB pins on one input. Pinout [Link]
Bill All-Star Member 5334 Posts 6/00	Posted - Jul 6 2004 : 6:54PM Kperv wrote: SCART's a huge connector. It has pins for bidirectional audio and composite and unidirectional RGB. Some TV's with more than one SCART connector support S-Video over the RGB pins on one input. Pinout Click to expand I knew what a SCART connector looks like (I have one on my multi-format VCR). However, I didn't realize that SCART carried audio as well as video. I should have been more clear in what I was trying to say. I meant that SCART was more like the S-Video connector in that they are both analog connectors that use multiple pins, and therefore multiple wires within the cable itself cable to carry different pieces of information. In essence, unlike component connections, both SCART and S-Video allow a single connection between a source and a TV to carry data that would typically require multiple cables. [Link]
Lee O Forearm Trainer mmmmmmm........ after-birth 1193 Posts 8/03	Posted - Aug 16 2004 : 9:21AM Some follow up if anyone is interested in continuing this discussion - I'm going to commit a double sin here by posting links to not one but two other forums . However they both have information which is very interesting ( well , I thought so anyway ) . Latest Blue Ray News ! at DVDTalk has an engaging debate and some relevant facts ( not to mention a poster not too far away from here ) , and Latest HiDef DVD News at AVS Forum has a wealth of information and speculation that I've barely dented so far . Here's a comparison of the two key formats that I posted at DVDTalk . BTW Sky have just announced that they will be launching a small HD service some time in 2006 , which makes them the first UK TV broadcaster to do so . I wonder if this means others will now follow suit . The latest rumors are that Sony are considering including BlueRay technology in the Playstation 3 . Will Microsoft retaliate by including HD-DVD in X-BOX 2 ? Only time will tell ! [Link]