I like porn and the Golden Age of Porn 1947 Posts 9/21
Posted - Jan 4 2023 : 2:49PM
Where do I even start with this? Fit18 looks like a small indie studio, so this doesn't really apply that much to you and your studio. But after 30 years of watching and buying porn, my viewing and porn taste have changed over the years. I feel most studios and performers are just following trends they see on pornhub and Onlyfans, which leads to no real originality or creativity in porn scenes or stories. That's why we see nothing but rough sex and stepparent porn coming from major studios and even small studios like yourself. I love to see more authentic and natural sex scenes and fewer porn circus tricks scenes or over-the-top/fake-as-hell performances. You can do this with any sex scene or sex act. You can make a gangbang scene that's erotic and passionate without an emphasis on rough sex or MMF that's not a "cuckold" storyline. And even tho the industry says it's soo diverse, it's not really that diverse when comes to major studios. Major studios still aren't picking women of all body types, skin colors, and sexuality. It's still all white skinny and young. And don't get me started with the problems with IR scenes in porn. These are only a few problems I see with today's porn industry. So, Basically, stop the overacting sex scenes with fake moans, stop the fast fucking" bunny rabbit" fucking and rough sex, stop the doing stupid circus act sex positions that no normal human can do, stop the fake squirting crap, stop using women that aren't into women in lesbian. And try to have more passionate, erotic, and neutral-looking sex scenes. Also, it would be nice to have a different location and not some shitty hotel rooms.
Edited by - WillCle216 on 1/4/2023 3:07:11 PM
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Lezzyist Deactivated User
Make Porn Erotic Again 1736 Posts 9/19
Posted - Jan 4 2023 : 4:03PM
^In doing my share (or more than my share, IDC) of complaining about shitty content directly to the producers, I think it is safe to say that the hilarious fake performances, insistence on incest, rough circus nonsense, etc stuff from your post are what the average porn buyer wants.
Unfortunately, if you want quality sex, you have to scrounge OF because neither producers nor the fans are interested in that. You might have an even worse time though because you want complex story stuff, which good luck on that. You might like DelphineFilms.com.
I don't like the sex in porn scripted and I think the emphasis on "scripts" and "acting" takes everyone's minds off the important part of porn and contributes to the prevalence of awful sex.
Lezzyist also brings up the great points on why you see a lot of incest and rough stuff. It sells.
Onscreen chemistry is a huge factor why you sense a lot of fakeness. It's not really different from Hollywood movies. A lot of pornstars have no chemistry with each other. It's also why some amateur couples are sexier, because the chemistry is real. Some producers take the time to assess chemistry before shooting a scene. Porno Dan will take a girl out for a coffee or lunch, before deciding whether to shoot a scene.
Always appreciate your contributions Fit18 :) Would love to what your perspective is on the industry right now. Any up and coming performers we should keep an eye out for?
Appreciate you asking. Because what makes porn so awesome is the sheer variety of girls available, the performers who caught my eye, may not be your type, and it should be about who catches your eye. :) Perhaps something resembling classic Aidra Fox?
I like a bit of story to my porn and I appreciate if every scene has a unique setting and vibe to it. That's why Deeper is my current favorite site. And that's why I don't sub to fit18, who seems to focus on the beauty of the performer in a bleak white room that is as sexy as a dental clinic. Most other porn sites are either making porn for teenagers: quick and dirty and/or repeating the same shit over and over. I'm also tired of the step sister shit that Brazzers, Teamskeet and you know who creates all year long. Throw me back to the 80s. Porn used to be mature and erotic.
I'd like to think the porn I enjoy is also enjoyable for women but apparently we need a stamp "feminist porn" for that nowadays.
Edited by - Alizee on 1/5/2023 11:11:30 PM
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Ronald1 Deactivated User
30 Posts 12/22
Posted - Jan 6 2023 : 1:11AM
MOD: Please do not talk about pornstars, directors or producers as if they are not here. (Katsumi sums it up nicely.) We are lucky to have industry participants, and they are paying attention to your constructive criticism. Insults will get you nowhere and lead to the deactivation of your forum account.
I'm going to use VMG as it's my more favored company (And MissaX....I like Milf porn).
I feel as though I'm not listened to (I'm sure others feel the same), I mention things I'd like to see more/less of (Stripping, Cuck stories etc) but they just ignore you and just carry on doing what they do because they still make enough money.
Sure they put out some good/Excellent content here and there but more often than not it feels repetitive (Same girls, Locations, Overused guys) but they don't care.
You are absolutely right. The classic stuff is awesome. The days of Annette Haven and Kay Parker. Then you go back to the 70s and the stuff by Alpha France starring Brigitte Lahaie and Olinka Hardiman.
Regarding the white rooms, even BLACKED in the early days did this a lot:
scene source: https://www.blacked.com/videos/amateur-blonde-ass-fucked-by-huge-black-cock
There are some big reasons for it: 1. It's easy to properly light the performers consistently because the room becomes a giant softbox. This saves a lot of time and money. 2. Draws focus to the models and makes you ignore some of the other things we may not want you to focus on such as the ladder in the background, or the dirty floors 3. a lot of people complain when a scene has too much "clutter" in the setting.
A typical VMG shoot can take at least 1 day to shoot, and 2 days is probably the average, before you factor in prep time. So the costs would break down like this:
2 day location rental: $2000 female pornstar to learn her lines and perform over 2 days: $2000 male actor for the same: $1000 makeup artist: $300 2 camera men: $1000 producer / director: $500 photographer: $500 wardrobe: $200 sound guy: $300 catering and incidentals: $200
Total: $8000. (and I'm probably missing agency fees, transportation and other stuff but this is a good number)
Properly set dressing and lighting a location, is time-consuming. If it's done at a new location for every shoot, that would take up a massive amount of time and money. It's why even in Hollywood movies, they tend to use the same locations over and over. It's not really different with porn.
Lots of credit to VMG now for spending the money on this extra effort, but they couldn't afford these kind of budgets in the beginning so you can shave a ton of time and money by having the more clinical-look. They couldn't afford $8-$10k per scene in the beginning.
I'm entirely self funded and didn't have investors like BLACKED, so my budget works like this:
location: $300 male actor/producer/cameraman: $500 female pornstar: $1000 makeup artist: $150 agency fee: $100 clothing and incidentals: $100
total: $2150 (with a lot of fluctuation upwards in costs).
All these figures don't include sunk costs like equipment, developers, security, etc. Our membership fees are commensurate with our costs if you look at it this way, but it should be a baseline for how you judge value. For example, there are sites with budgets the same as mine, and comparable quality, asking $30/month, but maybe they focus on a very specific niche and get the girls you want, so it's worth paying that price.
@alizeer, knowing this now, what little things could you see I could improve upon, that would make a big difference in your eyes? Would love your opinion. Thank you
Interesting write up Fit18. Given the way you budget it seems like you can film 4 scenes on the budget larger studios use for just one. So $8000 a month to do 1 scene a week means you need around 300 subscribers ($29/month) to break even. Is that about right? And if so do you have any plans on expanding or anything other genres you'd like to dip your toes into if you had the chance?
15% - processing fees 10% - holdback (the processing company keeps as reserve in case of chargebacks) 10% - server hosting and maintenance
At $30, that leaves you with $19.50. And you still have to pay for development and design if you don't do it yourself. You're looking at closer to 400 members to break even if you are not paying yourself.
I tried another genre and went the opposite direction with thicc girls. That didn't work out for a variety of reasons, but what is forgotten are the startup and ongoing costs. So, $8000 would be your ongoing production costs, but you don't launch a brand with zero scenes. The typical number is 20 scenes. That's at least $40k. And you don't get 400 subscribers right away unless you are already a big name with some backing such as a famous pornstar. So you may be on the hook for at least $8k/month of ongoing costs until you are cashflow positive. It's very much like running any kind of business.
If you hit on a good idea, expect 1 year to reach cashflow positive, and another year to earn back sunk costs to be profitable. And there are many examples of failed ventures. Do you guys remember the amish porn site? I think that was teamskeet. People complain about all the incest content, but when Nubiles tried to diversify away from that with sites about drivers, ballerinas, bountyhunters, detention, pissing - their return on investment must have paled in comparison, so they double down on the incest and from a business standpoint, it made more sense.
Interesting stuff! You brought up some stuff I hadn't considered. I guess with all the onlyfans accounts around I forgot how difficult getting even just 400 subs really is. I feel like you could also sell scenes on onlyfans/clips4sale to help with costs. Or maybe try connecting with other porn networks like Teamskeet, BangBros, or MoFos that include a wide range of semi-pro content.
I wouldn't blur out the male performers face and I wouldn't put him (partially) out of the frame. Seems like scenes are mostly shot from a tripod or pov which is understandable from a cost perspective but it's either static/boring or pov > not very intimate in my opinion. Are you the performer yourself? It's a dream job to be jealous of and if your subscribers are plenty then who cares what some dude on the forum thinks. Also looks like the full scene is uploaded on the tube site, how does that work? Doesn't that cost you subscribers or do you reckon those viewers wouldn't subscribe to the main site anyway? At least you can monetize and advertize there. Your site looks really good by the way from what I can see, nice photographs and popular girls.
Yeah, it's solo shot to save on costs and frankly I can't get it up with another dude in the room. :). Thank you for sharing your thoughts. The face blurring has been mentioned before and one I'm cognizant of.Full scenes are usually 30+ minutes with the tubes receiving 11-12 minute versions as samples. If a tube site has a full scene not behind a paywall, it was illegally uploaded and hurts business. It's a constant battle.
^ I assume that blurring the face is also the reason why you don't kiss the girl or go down on her. You'd have to blur the whole area. I like to see hot skinny girls fuck as much as anyone else but the sex act here is basic; receiving head and then straight to penetration. Penetration without body contact, at a safe distance. There's a lack of intimacy because you try to be out of the image at all cost. *Checked a dozen of scenes now.
I realize that not all porn is targeted at the same audience and the following is more aimed towards modern porn in general rather than your site.
Take inspiration from 80s movies such as "I like to watch - 1982". I've made a few screenshots. That setting with a fireplace. Those positions. First image notice her facial expression and natural blush from arousal on her cheeks. Second image a view of her curves in glow of the fireplace. Third image penetration with body contact it just oozes lust and intimacy.
In modern porn girls wear too much makeup to get any sort of natural blush. Sex is without passion. Rooms/beds/couches are unattractive. Often cold hard studio lighting is being used.
Thank you for taking the time and sharing examples. In some ways, I miss those days. You had to have chemistry because there was no viagra, and you couldn't wear too much makeup because those tungsten lights were hot as hell. It was a community back then too. People hung out together and got to know each other. Drugs also took the edge off. Not that there aren't drugs now, but it was closer to "recreational" in meaning. I'm also old and kinda fat now, and my charm only goes so far with girls less than half my age.
The primary reason is the economics of it. I'm an insanely small producer. You should be asking the big guys why they don't shoot like that since they have the budget, and it's really because they want to maximize profit. A bit of inside perspective: everyone is kinda afraid of the market crashing - from legislation, piracy, health, card processing - that it's all about efficiency now.
Pornhub losing their card processing wiped out half my revenue just as I was ready to invest in new equipment and a permanent location. The small net profit I had to pay myself modestly, vanished overnight and I was digging into my savings for a while to pay ongoing expenses. It was a gut punch to me after getting wiped out during the '08 financial crisis and after 10 years of rebuilding, having everything almost wiped out again. I apologize for the brief rant.
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Lezzyist Deactivated User
Make Porn Erotic Again 1736 Posts 9/19
Posted - Jan 14 2023 : 12:05AM
^Sheesh, that's heavy, man. I appreciate the insight.
And yeah, it makes sense for virtually all of business to be strictly lean right now. This is what happens when society crunches the average person. There's only so much you can shave off the buying power of the average person before the scale is tipped too far. Most people barely have money for eggs, let alone porn.
I like porn and the Golden Age of Porn 1947 Posts 9/21
Posted - Jan 14 2023 : 12:46PM
^ Have been into porn for over 25 years now and I always thought porn was a very expensive hobby to be into. During the '90s tapes were like 30 to 40 dollars a pop for like an hour and a half gonzo flick 00's DVDs were going for around the same price with some going for 50. Mags were like 10 bucks a month. Now you have PH and other tubesites but you can get bored with that shit quick. So, you join a website for like 25 or 30 a month with some sites asking 40 bucks a month. We're in a worldwide recession with countries dealing with worldwide inflation(that's as much politics I'll talk about here but I think everybody gets what I'm saying). So, I can see a lot of sites taking a hit in profit.
No one's interested in making porn, but everyone's interested in making money.
Artistry costs nothing - camera angles, dialogue (during sex), sex positions, pacing, story. There is no one at the major companies capable of creating anything sexy, it's usually the woman playing the submissive role (taking a pounding) with the typical fake moaning for 20-30 minutes. Like Alizee said, Kayden Kross at Deeper is probably the exception, but she's working with garbage male performers who are silent and operate at one speed.
Small details make a big difference. Less is more, as the saying goes. Let the imagination of the viewer take over.
Take this in Every Woman Has A Fantasy 2 (1986). A simple 5 minute scene with Keli Richards standing on the stairs, leg up blocking John Leslie, in control, building up from teasing, to fingering, to fucking, to cumshot. You can feel the passion between them.
I like porn and the Golden Age of Porn 1947 Posts 9/21
Posted - Jan 14 2023 : 3:36PM
I don't know how many I posted and talked about Lust Cinema and XConfessions on this thread but here I go again. Casey Calvert has been bringing hits for the last 3 years with Lust Cinema and people still just know her as the lady who likes anal. With her missing out again on the AVN director of the year award. Losing to the more name recognized Kayden Kross and Deeper. This type of porn is out there, you just need to start supporting it.
In response to the question about what is corporate porn, my understanding is corporate porn is porn created by production companies and is becoming less common. With the expansion of the Internet, more people are posting their own content independent of production companies. This includes various performers who have also worked for studios and those who haven't. These days, anybody with certain basic technology and a space (often in their home) to create from can make their own videos and post them online.
Though I didn't hear the conversation referred to between Jules Jordan and the woman, no producer should say they're going to make somebody a star as a definite statement because there's no way to know until the scenes come out. They can say, "I'll do my best to help you become a star, but I cannot make any promises" if they're willing to follow through on this. Even if it's not the director's responsibility to make somebody a star, they are responsible for what they tell performers and promises they make.
The obvious way out with a positive outcome is when porn companies start to put effort into productions again instead of trying to win the quantity/$ game. Create the kind of films we like so much from the 80s. Kayden Kross tries with whatever she has and she wins awards every year. Casey Calvert another example. They produce content you can't replicate with your home setup.
In the 80's I was still a child and too young to legally watch porn, though I since heard about how great it was and how some scenes are still available online. I also remember going into the video rental store (beta and VHS at the time) and seeing the "adult" section off in the distance that I was too young to go into.
My understanding is that the 80's were largely feature films with plots and sex. Then, in the 90's and 2000's, there was move toward more gonzo- no plot lines, just sex (with maybe the woman being interviewed or modeling at the beginning) and increasingly risky forms of sex. It seemed like the gonzo companies were competing with each other for who can push the envelope the most, putting performers' safety at risk and putting performers in a position where they had to increasingly be willing to do such acts to get enough work. Examples include not only vaginal creampies but also anal creampies that are magnets for the transmission of HIV/AIDS. Also, let's not forget about double anal.
Then, voila! In 2004, there's an HIV outbreak within the industry leading to a 2 month voluntary moratorium on porn production (even if some companies didn't comply). It sent shock waves through the biz, but I don't know what was shocking about this. After all, look at the direction porn was going in. What a wake up call! Since then, it seems like porn has to some extent moved more back to plot lines, but taboo plotlines such as incestuous. Not saying this didn't exist before then, but such themes seem to have become increasingly mainstream.
Since Kayden Kross's name came up, I have no problem with her personally and haven't seen any of her movies. However, I have a problem with how her husband Manuel Ferrara told her to stop doing porn because he gets jealous, but he continued to. Yes, I realize it's their marriage and they can decide, but that doesn't make this any less of a sexist double-standard: http://www.lukeisback.com/2021/08/trouble-in-paradise-kayden-kross-calls-out-misogynistic-hubby-manu/ I don't recall seeing any of his scenes either. However, even if I enjoyed them, I couldn't be a fan of his after learning this. Yet, he already has many fans and doesn't need me.
^ I was born in the late 80s. It doesn't mean I can't go back in time and watch the films of that era. I also mostly listen to classic music. Apart from what kind of content was produced, the girls were also more elegant and glamorous. Deeper and Slayed still have that vibe.
The Kayden-Manuel relationship idk. She's a grown independent woman. She can do as she likes and they're still together afaik. I personally don't take it too serious when people air their dirty laundry on social media without consequences following. It's just a blog-post feeding on negativity.
I like porn and the Golden Age of Porn 1947 Posts 9/21
Posted - Jan 15 2023 : 4:11PM
I personally think Manuel Ferrara is overrated and used too much in Vixen media. Manuel was great early in his career but he's all rough-sex European dude with women saying he fucks too hard for them. He's not Rocco's abusive level bad but it's a little too rough for most women. He's lucky Kayden and Vixen are still giving work because he would have retired years ago. Kayden and Manuel's relationship is none of my business if Kayden is ok with him still working and her just directing. Then I don't see a problem with this. The only problem I see with the relationship is him cheating on her and Dana Vespoli outside of work. I hope Kayden is getting hers on the side.
I like porn and the Golden Age of Porn 1947 Posts 9/21
Posted - Jan 15 2023 : 4:14PM
It's her husband and Kayden basically run Vixen Media. So, he'll be fucking until he's 60-something. He basically has no other skill in porn. He can't act or direct
We can say that their relationship is none of our business, except they made it public. Manuel Ferrara went on national TV and said he told Kayden Kross to stop doing porn because he gets jealous, but yet it's somehow okay for him to continue to. Once they made this public, it's no longer just their personal family business. If Manuel wished to keep this private, he could have and they could have just said Kayden stopped doing porn for personal reasons or family reasons and left it at that. Not sure if Kayden is doing porn again because I don't follow porn much.
Manuel also needs to understand that if he says this publicly, yes there are people find it sexist and will speak out on it. If people disagree with those of us of find it sexist, they can disagree all they want. However, if Manuel has the right to say this and put this sexist double-standard on his wife, those of us who find it sexist also have the right to speak out even if she accepts it and decides to stay with him. However, based on some of her Tweets, I'm not sure how accepting she is of his antics.
In terms of the Tweet where he (or somebody who hacked into his account) apologized for telling Kayden and his previous wife or gf to leave porn while he continued having sex rother women, I can have more respect for him if he actually did own up to this instead of saying it was hacked, even if it was hacked. I don't know if he cheated on them, but I do know what he said on camera that I mentioned above so if he could genuinely apologize for that and acknowledge the sexist double-standard, I'd also have more respect for him.
MOD: Please do not talk about pornstars, directors or producers as if they are not here. (Katsumi sums it up nicely.) We are lucky to have industry participants, and they are paying attention to your constructive criticism. Insults will get you nowhere and lead to the deactivation of your forum account.
When you brought up Kayden Kross, that's what I thought about. I care about more than just how somebody performs or directs or blow jobs, anal, dp, etc. That's why I brought him up since this board isn't just about one person's interests. I actually do care about sexism and misogyny even if not every does, which to me is a more serious issue than how somebody performs or directs, or how much people jack off or how big a star somebody is. Plus, various people in this thread have brought up performers, so why should he be off limits? However, to be fair, I also realize this can be a whole other thread and did respond to the question about what corporate porn is.
Luca5 hit the nail on the head: the awards are paid for. Vixen spends big money to get those awards. Lust Cinema is a relatively small porn company in barcelona who cares a lot more about their porn than making money. In the netflix episode about them, you can freeze frame where they are talking about financials, and see they were earning less than 30k/month. Even though salaries are super low in barcelona, they have 5+ people working on each scene. That means they pour almost all their revenue into the scenes. I've met Erika a couple of times. She does not dress or act flashy in the least, and I always got the sense she was shooting at a loss for a LONG time.
That isn't true. Artistry costs a lot, which is why you see less of it. You want good camera angles, you need a good DP that can block out the scene in advance. You want dialog during sex, someone has to write realistic dialog. You have to pay the cast more to learn the lines. Pacing/story, again writer and cast learning the lines. It is way cheaper to skip artistry.
Depends on the award. The big ones are. The lesser awards can be genuine. If you see a banner on the AVN website for a brand, or their ad in their magazine, they are going to get a nomination at the very least. Also if you go to a trade show and make a good impression on someone from AVN or connected to AVN, you might also get a nomination. It's not really different from any other industry such as the MTV awards or Golden Globes.
Kayden doesn't run Vixen Media Group. Vixen media group bought her pornsite and rebranded it as Deeper.
^^^ Maybe I was unclear, but my point is this: The people behind the cameras, I think, are less talented compared to those of yesteryear. They were filmmakers. The people making porn today are content creators. The difference of quality is clear. (And I'm not only referring to porn here but hollywood, too. Maybe I'm just nostalgic.) With pacing I mean simple things like starting with a close-up slow sensual blowjob and ending with full body shot of hair pulling in doggy, for example, a progressive scene, even if it's shot on a phone. Or slow sex to rough sex. Most start with a rough blowjob, deepthroat, and then there's nowhere to go from there. I don't think that costs, that's just talent. With Deeper, Kayden is far more talented than the other directors, in my opinion (others may disagree), and I assume they work with similar budgets. All I know is what I like. For me, Kayden and Mason (and Bree Mills from when GirlsWay and PureTaboo first started) are my favourite directors because they add some artistic value to their work. I haven't seen everyone's work out there so feel free to provide suggestions. It's a pity that LustCinema works with low revenues, I've not seen much of their work apart from trailers, it looks like they care for quality, but I guess that's just where porn is nowadays.
^ Totally agree. Also Kaydens work at Slayed: "Piquet" featuring Freya Parker and Amber Moore should've won an award for best girl/girl scene in my opinion. That scene is more special than the winner "Heat wave" which was also good, but from a director point of view a vanilla Slayed scene. I've posted more about it here: Slayed.com "official" Thread
I had the impression that Manuel's fans are mostly female. I was tired of his act some years ago. But I am mostly a lesbian, solo, and some other stuff porn fan, so I have less tolerance for straight porn BS.
Trophy Wives 2 - review by Captain Jack
Posted - Jan 4 2023 : 2:03PM
