Edited by - Mythsong on 8/17/2003 11:50:47 PM

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Exactly. Perhaps that's the reason I hate the mugging so much. It's almost like saying "Hey, this is for men only" which it is. I realize that even so-called couples porn is first and foremost used as an enhancement to beating off.

I have to disagree about the sex being more boring than in gonzo however. Gonzo gets boring very quickly, IMO. It's too 'act driven' and downright circusy in many instances. You end up with people thrown together, many for the first time, getting naked and going at it for 20 - 25 minutes, complete with the checklist of acts expected.

At least in features there's more of a reason to be having the sex, and no mugging for the camera. So, in that sense it's more female friendly, but either way, porn will never hold much appeal for females until they get more attractive men in it. That's pretty basic. Like female orgasms however, most pornhounds don't seem to care much and I'm fairly certain some might even resent it. How else to account for the fact that most females are not even encouraged to fake one?

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Many of the Golden Age movies managed to balance actual sex with compelling story-lines so there's no doubt that a successful (and I'm referring to 'artistically' rather than just financially) adult feature is possible. Movies like 3am, The Ecstasy Girls, The Opening of Misty Beethoven and Through The Looking Glass are as successful on a narrative as they are on a sexual level (sometimes more so).

Now, a lot of contemporary couples movies (I actually think 'narrative porn' is a better description) are terrible because of incompetence, laziness or a lack of respect for the viewer. However, it seems to me that even the better features aspire as much to a demographic as to a creative ideal. The couples market and accompanying formula are now well established and I think it's a mistake to assume that those servicing this market are aiming to make 'real' movies. There are directors and studios who consistently produce interesting features (James Avalon and Michael Raven being two of the best examples) but I always get the feeling that objections would be raised if a director were to stray too far from the formula. 'Where's the GG scene?'. 'Where's the external pop?'. 'Where's the facial?'.

The truth is that the studios, just like anyone else in business, exist to make a profit and 'couples porn' refers more to a market than the aspiration of 'real' movie making.

SDC

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Tony wrote:

"But recently I've begun to seriously question the notion that trying to make porno more like a "real" movie would really make it any more palattable to couples who don't enjoy watching "regular" porn "

Obviously a phrase like 'real movie making' is problematic which is why I used inverted commas.

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"Hey there is a new movie soon to come out "Couples movie" with horses and the hole 9!!!! check the trailer out .....real romantic but alot of hot nasty sex also.. .."

seems not all producer/directors have given up on the 'couples' genre .. one effect of the Extreme indictment could be the renaissance of nasty but wholesome (no freak shows) sex both in gonzo and couples movies .. and no mugging .. female or male pls..

Edited by - Goldhat on 8/20/2003 7:25:08 PM

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Don't get sucked in by Walter's innocent seeming request! That way lies endless exposition. <grin>

Edited by - Mythsong on 8/21/2003 1:16:36 AM

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In the broadest sense a notion such as 'real movie making' is very difficult because, for a start, most mainstream (another problematic term) features are every bit as predictable and formulaic as their adult counterparts. However, I was posting on a message board not writing a dissertation. I actually think the word porn is problematic (due to it's many negative connotations) but use it frequently. Firstly, people tend to know what the word refers to and secondly, it is completely impractical to qualify yourself at every turn or define every potentially problematic term. I think that my first post on this subject was perfectly clear, particularly in the context of those that had preceded it.

Apologies if I sound rude because that isn't my intention. Nonetheless, I chose to contribute to this thread because I find the subject matter and initial posts to be interesting. I fail to see what your pedantry has contributed.

Mythsong, good point well made. I will stoically resist any further goading on this matter

SDC

(Edited to lighten the tone)

Edited by - sdc on 8/21/2003 8:14:51 AM

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the next time you want to "discuss" amongst each other in a safe way, without the evil and pedantic Walter Burns disrupting your little chit chat, just let me know by using the following sign: .
Wait a minute, that won't be necessary after all. Since you demonstrate that your willingness to discuss with me is zero, I won't bother to read any of your posts in the future. After all, why would I want to waste my time trying to understand what you are saying (all I did at this point, was asking for an explanation, right?), if you won't return the favor.

Oh yes, the next time you "discuss" some general (film) aesthetics, that goes beyond your own personal opinions, try doing some research. Or at least, read a book. Otherwise, there will always be some pedantic motherfucker around, who will bother you.

And mythsong, thank you for sharing your opinion of me with the rest of us. It is nice to finally know what you really think of me. I hope one day I can return that favor. I already have a few ideas in mind.<grin>????

@sdc, you are calling me pedantic for asking an explanation before I would jump on your ass (and believe me, I would have)? "Unnecessarily argumentative"? Sorry, but your explanation of why you consider the concept of "'real' film making" problematic isn't at all what I had in mind, not even by a long shot. And that doesn't mean that what I had in mind, is not relevant to this discussion either. But then again, what "discussion".



Tom Byron said:
"A lot of rumours float around the ceaseless gossip pool that is the porn biz."

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NEWS FLASH:
A thread derailed on ADT this morning, killing no one, but injuring several. Witnesses at the scene described a chaotic series of images including ruffled feathers, indicating a possible bird attack may have led to the accident.

Walter Burns said:
"...read a book. Otherwise, there will always be some pedantic motherfucker around, who will bother you."

Better than a pederastic huggermugger, I always say.

Tony, you're starting to sound like Col. Kurtz at the end of Apocalypse Now ...

"...the horror"

In reference to your soliloquy: what, if anything, are you going to *DO* about it? Or is this all just rhetorical?

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Thank you

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My above post was meant in an affectionately joking tone of voice. I was just teasing. Hence the "<grin>" to make it obvious I wasn't being serious. (I enjoy reading many of your posts, and the few dialogues we've had. But, even you, yourself, will admit that you can get a bit long winded at time. <grin> <- smiling as I type this.) I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way...

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I think that the main problem with porn, be it gonzo or couples (and I see little difference in the actual sex with these two genres), is that given the realities of the sex business, it is extremely rare to find real heat and chemistry between the performers. I don't care how loud they scream or how hard they pound, they are there to do a job for X amount of dollars per act.
Unfortunately it shows, but what can you do?

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For my wife and I the greatest couple sex scene of all time is the last scene of NIGHT TRIPS between Tori Welles and Randy Spears. They make eye contact, even when Tori is giving him head; they smile in each other's faces. No moaning. No groaning. No pounding. Then after climax, they hold each other. She whispers "Thank you." And he replies, "For you my love, anything," or something similar. And that is all the dialogue for the scene.

By the way Blondie, in case you did not read it elsewhere, Caballero finally did it right by NIGHT TRIPS, and re-released it properly digitized. Some ADT reviewer needs to do a review of it. I can think of no one better qualified than you. Just make sure you get the new released version.

_______________________________

"The greatest argument for the existence of God,
is the beauty of the female form."

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I think I'll be picking it up though - that Randy Spears scene sounds hot!

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You mentioned about mainstream films frequently achieving an intense erotic look - but I've watched music videos that look plenty erotic, especially on MTV Espanol. The people in them are just singers and dancers, so it can't be that great acting talent is always needed to generate this type of heat. But what does seem to be necessary is decent lighting and camera work, good sets and costumes, and at least some concept of what the director and singer are looking to achieve. Though from what I understand, the average music video can take from 12-15 hours to film, with multiple takes, to result in a 3 minute product, versus a 90-120 minute porn film, that is done at the most over 2 days, that may not have multiple takes, and doesn't have even the commesurate sort of budget that a music video does.

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I believe in an early rant I refered to artist, lunitics, and men of independent means. I ain't rich, and I ain't an artist, so it's no wonder I'm begining to sound like Kurtz.

Re: What are you going to do about it?

If you haven't already, I'd invite you to take a look at:

http://www.comstockfilms.com

There you'll find reviews and stills from our current release, as well as 2 preview clips (one in QuickTime and one in (horrors) WindowsMedia). They're each about a minute long and give a good sense of the flavor of the film.

-T.C.

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A friend of mine is in an up and coming band that's just been signed by a "B level" label. The record company gave them $25k to shoot their video. That got them one 11 hour day on the set. If they get some traction, the record company will spend about that much more editing their 3 minute video. Total $50k

My current "ligit" project is a documentary that has had my (more or less) full attention for the better part of a year. It's taken me and various crew to three continents, as well as three locations in the US. The total budget (pre, production, post) is in the low six figures, travel not included. Our goal is to produce a finished films with a 15 minute running time.

"M&J" was shot in one day and then took 26 days to edit, or roughly one day for each minute of screen time. It was self-financed, but if someone asked me to do the same thing for them the budget would be somewhere between $25k-$35k. The DVD authoring took another 5 days, so figure another $5k-$10k for that, depending on who's doing it for you. (We did it in-house).

"Big Budget" in pornoland rarely tops $100k. I read on Asia Carrera's website how please she was to have about that amount to produce her blockbuster costume drama "Apassionata". Candida Royal told me she had about $75k to produce her last full-length feature, and she was pretty please about that too. In pornoland that's a lot of money.

Porno doesn't attract the money or the talent that music videos, commercials, or feature films attract. The difference is many, many orders of magnitude. Yet as views we can't help but compare. Whether it costs $5/minute to produce or $50k/minute to produce, it all comes out of the same glowing box in our livingroom.

T.C.

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From Tony's website:

The award-winning erotic film Marie and Jack: A Hardcore Love Story is now available on DVD! In addition to the award-winning film, the DVD release contains over 60 minutes of supplemental interactive material.

The new material includes two versions of a “choose your camera angle” presentation of Marie and Jack’s entire lovemaking session. By using the “Angle” button on any DVD remote, you can switch on-the-fly between the two cameras used to film the scene. Enjoy their entire love scene, without interruption, from the first kiss to the last embrace, from the camera angle you select!

The first version uses a “picture-in-a-picture” subwindow so you can see what is on the other camera. If you don't want to see the PIP, a second version offers the same material without the PIP enhancement.

Marie and Jack is a glimpse inside the private sex-life of married adult stars Marie Silva (aka Aria) and Jack Bravo. Shot in revealing documentary style, the film offers an intimate look at Marie and Jack's physical and emotional relationship. As explicit as any XXX feature, the sex is both raw and tender; beautifully shot, and lovingly edited.

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You might look a titles that feature real life couples. I haven't seen this one myself, but bono-ONE did a good review of The Devinn Lane Show Episode 5. Troy and Holly Halston did a good scene in Breathless. One of the best 1 on 1 scenes was of them in the Mile BI Club. Bob wrote on another thread:

Edited by - RobHammer on 9/6/2003 4:07:43 PM

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