Chin up and be strong

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In Western Europe, we get the occasional depressing news report about illegal trafficking in women. These are often Eastern Europeans lured here under false pretences.
That is just sick, and the people behind it deserve far harder punishment than any Western European justice system provides.
Of course this has nothing to do with voluntary prostitution, but is simple slavery.

As long as it is a personal voluntary choice when a woman (or indeed a man) decides to sell sexual favours, instead of banging nails, hauling trash cans or any other job, I'm all for it.
After all, I'm doing what I do for a living because of the money, same as you.

I don't know the situation in the US, but around here I suspect the despicable trafficking in women as sex slaves, casts a shadow over the entire sex industry.

If society could feel more assured that prostitutes weren't prostitutes because they were being forced to, or due to other desperate circumstances, there would be much less of a stigma associated with the profession.

A member of the Danish parliament some years ago actually tried to get the sex workers to organise in a union. Nothing came of it unfortunately.
Such a union might well have been a blow against the traffickers in this country.

On a lighter note to paraphrase John Lennon: "All we are saying is give sex a chance"

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Edited by - flash on 8/22/2004 3:46:08 PM

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-PornoPunK

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The sex workers movement, if it is ever born in the USA, would probably not be made up of noble, law-abiding, moral people of impeccable character - since, by their very nature, according to the current system, they are immoral lawbreakers of the lowest and meanest regard. Who is going to stand with us and take the risk?

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The distribution of porn has certainly gotten more legitimate and respectable, at least certain segments of it, like the softer stuff that's on cable/satellite TV, and shown in hotel rooms. And what they show has apparently gotten somewhat more hardcore through the years, though still not quite like the typical gonzo DVD. Being able to rent adult videos/DVD's from the backroom of a local video store is also pretty legit (there are two of these within a 10 minute drive of my home, and I'm way out in suburbia).

On the other hand, I think that the general public still has qualms about the people who perform in, and those who produce porn films, like they are some fringe part of our society; that's what is not viewed as so legitimate and respectable. Perhaps because 25-30 years ago, at least in the US, the porn industry was basically underground and on the fringes.

Porn as art? I view it as more entertainment than anything, like most things on film. I don't consider many mainstream films to be art, either, except for those that the director/producer/writer has put an individual stamp on, where they are obviously trying to go beyond momentary visual amusement Most mainstream films are meant to entertain, and make money, besides.

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So you see, anyone in the business of sexual gratification in any form is a very, very dangerous person. And people, intelligent people who know better than to believe the sort of anti-sex dogma above, who do watch porn and go to strip clubs and maybe even pay for sex, are mostly still loath to defend the industry they secretly support with their time and money. How many posters on this board hide their porn under their bed?

(In fact, one might argue that what makes porn successful--that what makes sex workers successful on some primordial level--is the very illegitimacy of their business, and the subversiveness of their viewpoint. Most good entertainment is subversive to the established social norms. When the sex industry becomes "legitimate" will be when it becomes useless, or is co-opted and subsumed into the mainstream. A lot of fans will give up on it forever on that day.)

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The reason many people do not label pornography/erotica as art, even if they are fond of pornography/erotica themselves, is fear or even angst.
Because pornography is a constant reminder of regulations of a society.
Regulations which are often not easily compatible with our "biological set-up".
These regulation are even considered useful by most of the most liberal or libertarian minded; deep in their soul most people praise and thank gawd - for various reasons - that there are these regulations.
We fear changes in our society. Because even the poorest member of a society thinks he has somehow gotten the better form of society (Just look onto the rareness of upraisings/revolutions in societies and what amount of poverty and mismanagement by leaders/leading caste must happen to start an "internal upraising" of a society leading to an actual change).

If you go to the adult booth in the video rental store one discovers another subversive nature of pornography/erotica. Even if there are Private and Vivid, pornography/erotica in general contests with nowadays sterile/unnatural form of beauty ideals.
Even in a high gloss Andrew Blake movie there is "dirt", sweat and other body fluids.
Pornography/Erotica is about primal or maybe primate instincts.
It shows the human being as it is, and not how PR/art directors, society or "social engineers" want it to be.

Camille Paglia said "Pornography is human imagination in tense theatrical action. Its violations are a protest against the violations of our freedom."

Labelling pornography/erotica as art would make it an "legitimate" contribution to the discussion of the failures of the "set-up" of our society, which controls the "human animal".
Art is the place in our society one can let out these emotions or - in a philosophical sense - art sheds light on the boundaries of society's rules; be it an ancient tragedy about the forbidden love - because of differentclass/caste heritage - of two people, or portraying a clusterfuck in pornography/erotica.

Pornography/Erotica is especially dangerous because it directly addresses sexuality, which is predominant in our needs, shortly after dealing with our need for food.

Just look on the various interracial threads, what amount of dynamite lies in there.
You will not easily find such heated discussion about mainstream movies explicitely dealing with the race issue.

Or watch a thread, when one asks the question "Would you object if your daughter decides to pursue a career in the sex industry?".
Rarely one encounters such heated discussion about free will, free choice, social boundaries - be it by law or by secret/unspoken society rules.

And if one looks at prostitution, there were times when priestesses performed or acted in a way what would be considered a pornstar or prostitute today.
Also - at least high-class - prostitutes of various ages where not labelled as despicable harlots, but rather as artists, also (see: hetaira, courtesan, maitresse).

Prostitution is a constant reminder or accusation that our society's way of sexuality, monogamy, e.g., interferes with the biological needs of our species.
Many unspoken/secret rules and in some societies even rules laid out in actual law control sexuality.
There is no interest (or should one say need?), but even fear to change society.
Therefore the contempt for prostitutes in society, their use as scapegoats, etc., which helps to "hide" them, or segregate them from the "normal" society.

"Public lies and private truths", as Machiavelli noted.

Just remember the way our society deals with homosexuality.Nowaday's &quotof rules for homosexuality" may be primarily attributed to the raise of a new STD, not because people out of a sudden became more concerned for other sexual orientations.
Homosexuals simply could no longer be "hidden" and their percentage in population was too big to segregate them - now visible - from society.
(BTW, did you know that it is estimated that during the time of the Viennese Congress (1814-15), when - approximately - the whole diplomatic corps of all of Europe was located in Vienna to discuss the order of Europe after the Napoleonic Wars, more than 10% of the female Viennese population worked as prostitutes?)

But let's switch back to "classic" erotica/pornography.
Not only is the label pornography used to denigrate and derise an art, which "investigates" and accuses our social boundaries, because we all fear - in the sense of angst - not only that our society could change. We even fear a discussion which goes deeper than the usual superficial discussion of society in "respected" arts.
The label of pornography - as it and its implications is well known to the masses - has been used and is used up to now to denigrate and derise philosophy and art, which deals with the very fundamentals of human societies.
From the work of the Marquis de Sade, to the various artists labelled as obscene and pornographers in the "Third Reich" up to the works of contemporary performance artists like Flatz, Krystufek and Nitsch, e.g.

In short; I do not see why the use or "exploitation" of sexuality (to evoke emotions) makes pornography/erotica not eligable as an art, but I see that withholding the label art for erotica/pornography serves well to prevent serious (and public) discussions, which could be dangerous to the very principles and roots of society.

In "enlightened" societies it is an easy form of circumventing the need for censorship.
Label something as pornography and there is no need for actual censorship, as long as the masses) know, that pornography is nothing to be taken serious and something which should or can be denigrated and does not or should not have the rights of an art.
No need for censorship also implies that a given society can spout that it is an oh so liberal society.
(BTW; this is not an attack on the USA, but more on Europe, where the laws may be not so strict, but pornography is dericuled and termed as despicable, nonetheless.)

Ah, the eternal trouble that solidarité and fraternité work well as fundaments in any society, but liberté is the natural enemy of any society.

"That is, I oppose intrusions of the state into the private realm - as in abortion, sodomy, prostitution, pornography, drug use, or suicide, all of which I would strongly defend as matters of free choice in a representative democracy."
-- Camille Paglia

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The cute crazy thing, in my opinion, is that they support what pornstars do. They buy the films, or rent them, then they come here… But then they get guilty or ashamed or something, and they start to attack pornstars. Not always personally, but they write those terrible things about the profession.

That's their problem. It's obvious to me that they have some issues they have to deal with.

Of course porn is a decent way to earn money. Of course people should be free to do whatever they want to do, unless it hurts someone else. This is obvious. And these people should not be judged.

And porn can be art, yes. Sometimes, it is. I have a serious interest on cinema and, in my opinion, some of the best films of the nineties (a few, I admit) are pornos. Right up there, next to Woody Allen, Almodóvar, Egoyan, Kieslowski or Spike Lee.

Most porn, however, is not art. It's entertainment, and that's fine, that's all they want to be, and we all like entertainment. And there is lots of good entertainment coming from porn studios. Which is GREAT. You people should be proud. And I am serious.

But, even when it's bad entertainment (and we all know how bad a porno can be), the only thing I get angry with is that I spent my time and money to watch it. Even those doing bad pornography have the right to earn their living. Even because pretty much everybody in porn did both good and bad pornos. And because what doesn't work for me might work for someone else.

The problem is not porn. The problem is many of those watching porn.

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I'm sorry if my statement amout legitimacy in my other post offended you. Let me try and explain my perspective.

Without question, porn is intended to stimulate sexually. That, however, does not make it mutually exclusive to art. Whether we consider it art or pure sexual titilation, society has changed it's perception of porn to be more accepting. This change may be begrudging, and inspired by monetary reasons, but it has led to a level of legitimacy.

Despite this level of legitimacy, I recognize that society is doing a balancing act between legitimacy and taboo in how it percieves porn. Consider, however, how drastically society has changed it's outlook on porn. This change can be measured in numerous different fashions, and Renee touched on a few of them. Society is slow to change, and I recognize that many of society's "norms" are ridiculus.

I, like many others, would love it if porn were even more highly regarded in the United States, and that society can completely shed the stigma attached to it. I'm also old enough to know that chnage in our society comes slowly. I also realize, and accept, that just because I want something does'nt make it so. We live in a society that has to accomodate values based on a significant spectrum.

In looking at that spectrum we have expectations that are placed on us. Some may seem repressive, some may seem ridiculus, and some may even be contradictory. But the expectations are there because they are indicative of our values as one comprehensive collection of individuals.

Saying that we, as individuals, should be able to do what we want so long as it causes no one else harm may be a valid personal statement. Validity aside, society dictates expectations. Some of those expectations are contradictory to those discussed in an earlier thread. Be it right or wrong, society does not accept prostitution.

We live in a finicky society full of contradicitons. My personal feeling is that porn stars doubling as hookers, and the knowledge of such being widely distributed, will do ill will to the legitimacy and respectability that the industry has gained.

Sorry, I guess I gagged trying to swallow that donut whole ;-)

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The fact that millions of people world wide make their living from prostitution suggests that "society" actually does accept it. This is supported by the fact that in the more enlightened communities of the world, it is already legal.

The minority groups who see sex workers as "evil" or "immoral" or even as "victims", usually hate erotic art too.

There are even places where prostitution is legal, but adult videos are forbidden.

I feel that your fears are unfounded.

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Edited by - Zartyr on 8/26/2004 9:05:42 AM

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These minority groups are not the problem.
The problem is that $Mr_Manager_and_good_father cannot say he goes to prostitutes, but rather condemns prostitutes in public.
And another problem is that it the spin created is not particularly positive for $Ms_aspiring_politician, if rumours about her supposed activities in some high class bordello during her time at college are spread.

Or did you read on the NATO zero tolerance policy on prostitution in out of area theaters?
Basically something favours to root out the unvoluntary prostitution there.
But obviously - as it had to be expected - the very and only solution or take on this problem has been missed.

A group of people - especially if this group of people where the sex-ratio is out of balance - will make use of prostitutes.
In pre-modern armies, and even modern armies prostitution was a normal part of the "logisitcs/support"-train.
"Marketenderinnen" (Sutlers?) were at least considered part-time prostitutes, and some of them were "full-time" prostitutes. Even in WWI and WWII bordellos managed by the military (with voluntary prostitutes) were not unknown (One can look up the medical regulations for them, BTW).

Soldiers will go to prostitutes, no matter what regulations. So why not bring them from "home country"?
It does make military sense for the medical and intelligence staff, because one has a tighter grip on disease control with one's soldiers, and the chances for "bed-side espionage" are decreased.

But today, 19-year olds are sent somewhere and told to kill and get killed, but god forbid if or nice and lovely hometown hero would actually go to a prostitute, and heaven forbid if the military organizaton of the progressive, enlightened, western world would make prostitution an institution in the military.

It is not blown in the face of a pornstar in a talkshow, but I think, despite the superficial "acceptance" of pornstars, they are viewed as members of the same category as prostitutes by "society" in general.
Just watch the afternoon freak^W TV-shows for the bored housewife.
The moderator of such a show, will show respect, but the attendance will portray a negative gut-feeling ("Nice for her, but I would not want this job for my daughter.")

Or look around here or on usenet, does the term "euro-whore" ring a bell?

Edited by - Zartyr on 8/26/2004 9:07:05 AM

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We can find civilized societies that accept or deplore a wide range of actions. Many muslim states, for example, find it unacceptable for women to go out baring skin in public. A second example is topless bathing which is acceptable in many European countries. American society has norms that are different from those in the examples.

The simple fact is that prostitution is not accepted by society, as it relates to the United States.

Zartyr, I strongly disagree with your statement about pornstars being looked at as prostitutes or whores. I think this is at the heart my argument. The fact that porn has eveolved towards legitimacy has also helped promote talent to be viewed with more legitimacy. In addition, whether someone is a pronstar, prostitute, mailman, accountant, teacher, whatever, these people are still someone's son, daghter, mother, sister, etc. I know how offended I would be if someone referred to one of my loved ones as a "whore."

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as we apparantly have to now say 10 times a day please read the forum etiquette. if you can't comply then go post somewhere else. this is a community. try pretending you are actually speaking to people in person.

Edited by - Steph on 8/26/2004 12:13:30 PM

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Edited by - licker on 8/28/2004 1:34:52 PM

Edited by - licker on 8/28/2004 1:35:34 PM

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#1 Prostitution (that includes 'Pornstar') is a real job.
there is no need to 'legitimate' these admirably services over 'arts' in any way.

#2 No need to put some pornstars on a pedestal to show how clever they are
or to start this nauseously 'she is so pretty/smart she could have done something else' talk!

#3 Imho, you can be proud if you have what it takes to be a sucessful prostitute,
make more $$$ than an average job and if you're really good in your profession you make more
than a prof/lawyer/doctor in a month! And even if you're not that lucky, as long as you can pay your bills no one should point a finger at you.

#4 Not the word 'prostitute' offends me but the mysogynistic attitudes some people display here,
some try to cover it up under what they call legal fetishes.

#5 Not only 'pornfans' shit talk about talents, some 'directors' are right avec them!
some people get praised and idolized here that are nothing but a bunch of insecure bullies that treat women like crap so they can feel manly. But hey, idiots blend well together. It should be no problem for the later to find a cheering audience here.

#6 It's an old truth that whenever people can't have something they desire and envy others about or it just doesn't fit in their mindset they speak ill of it. In case of prostitution there's a lot of things that come to mind:

- some people are bound marriage and are trapped in boring or no sexlife at all (apart from watching porn),
- they don't have the money or are too shy to afford professionals,
- they generalize that most prostitutes are ugly,
- they misinvest hughe amounts of time to create pseudo intellectual differentiations
between the words pornstar,talent and prostitute
- they try hard to seperate a blended glamours pornstar world and the wretched world of escorts as they see it,
- they get paid a lot less for what they consider 'harder' fair work,
- they can't prostitute themselfs coz they're too ugly or trapped in social codes,
- they think they are intellectual superior,
- they talk badly about people using these 'services' which attacks prostitutes indirectly,
- they joke talk about limited intellect of prostitutes,
- they strongly believe someone who has studied at a university deserves to earn more than a prostitute,
- they don't consider prostitution a real job,
- they see prostitutes as a potential threat to their ideals of a healthy society
- they are uptight bitter people with broken life dreams that resent others having a good time resulting from their efforts
- they won't miss a chance to name prostitution in one go with child abuse, drug abuse and exploitation.

These ressentiments are stuck in many peoples heads and regulary fed by mainstream media like newspapers or hollywood movies; apart from that it's your gov that prohibits prostitution and therefore hinders the formation of regulated and safe workplaces for sex-workers.

Edited by - x-ray on 11/3/2004 3:56:24 AM

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It is on the way to get more "legitimacy", but it is still a long way to go.

AAMOF, regardless how one looks at it, erotic artists, be it a prostitute or a performer in an erotic/pornographic movie, are sex workers.

The key is to raise the respect/legitimacy/approval of sex work in general and not single out some more appropriate forms of sex work in favour to "despisable" forms of sex work.
If one does so, one works in the hands of anti-sex work activists, because they use the strategy of "Divide et impera!".
Puritans, feminists and religious fanatics are anti-prostitution and anti-porn, anyway.
Plus, they all have a problem with art in general.

edited for spelling

Edited by - Zartyr on 8/26/2004 9:42:25 AM

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But the other way is that it is a well proven concept of societies, to deny the label "arts" for anything dangerous or anything viewed as misfit for society.

If one wants to invoke Godwin one refers to the dealing with "entartet" (depraved?) arts in the Third Reich of the Nazis, the prosecution and denying the label art for anything "dangerous" in all kind of dictatorship, from the ancient greeks to "enlightened terror-regimes" (de Sade, the predecessor of artists sent to the mental asylum in the USSR, e.g.) and to the communist and fascist oligarchic regimes of the last century.
And often these works of art were labelled "pornographic" as opposed to "valueable arts".

It, however, could and can be seen in democracies, also.
The artists in the late 60ies, the "Wiener Aktionismus", Nitsch, Brus, e.g., who got arrested for their performances.
And it is a well proven concept for denigrating erotica/pornography(*) throughout history.

IMHO there is no difference in artistic value between "Feeding Frenzy ATM Monsterbukkake #42" and "Scary Teenie Movie #47" or Koyanisquatsi and an Andrew Blake Movie; a ballerina and a stripper, or any difference between a Sensei in Martial Arts and a prostitute offering their bodies (and souls) for practice/experience.

So the labelling of erotica/pornography (and services of prostitutes) as arts will be a crucial point, but not the only criterion, in assessing if a society does really legitimate/respect/accept(in the sense of grokking) sex work.
I.e. acceptance of sex work as a real job will not be possible, if pornography is not considered as arts.

(*) One (wo)man's erotica is the other (wo)man's pornography and vice versa.

Edited by - Zartyr on 8/26/2004 10:48:22 AM

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I tried to dance for someone in private once for money while he masturbated. It made me really uncomfortable.

I remember when I decided to do some stripping as a non-feature at a club called Rick's in Seattle. Great club. But a few of the girls there felt like they were better than me because they had never "lowered" themselves to fucking for money. I was shocked and if I hadn't been so frazzled, I probably would have been amused. Here they were, on a nightly basis, complaining that they couldn't be considered acceptable in society because they were strippers, and they were doing the exact same thing to someone "lower" than them. It was that day that I knew I would never ever think badly of someone else just because they were able to accomplish something that I wasn't able to - and that includes escorting.

I'm not sure what kind of point I'm trying to make, but it's close to this: It's really easy to judge others based on the standards that you've set for youself in your own life, but that's pretty egotistical. If someone else is not hurting anyone in any way, shape or form, is there any harm in it?

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people need to stop lying to themselves!

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Fuck everybody else. That's my theme this evening.

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'According to senate law pornography is bad just that nobody know's what it is? According to law pornography is something that has no artistic merit and causes sexual thought. I tell you what causes sexual thought when all is said and done. Having a dick causes sexual thought.

I can be riding on the L-train kinda rocking kinda nice. OH MY GOD!! I'M GETTING A WOODY. WHat are they gonna do ban public transportation?'

I miss Bill Hicks

I really do.

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For those of you who are pro sex workers, cool, keep up the good attitude. Just remember, even though you might or might not understand the differences between all fields of sex work, don't let yourself fall into the trap of marginalizing one field while elevating another. You would not say that an obstetrician was better(or worse) than a cardiologist, because even though they are both doctors, they don't provide the same service.

I won't stay in the box, don't try to make me.

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Take a look around and you'll find people with no qualifications excelling in whatever field they stumble into. Probably many of the world's riches fall into this category.

Ladies, I can't understand what you go through in your chosen (or stumbled into) industry. The pressures, the biases, the work, the pay. I'm sure many of the people on this board don't either but at least we can try to be respectful towards you as human beings.

If you feel having a degree or certification makes you a "smarter" person then by all means take some of your money and buy something for yourself. It may be called an education and help you find a different career but I believe the biggest benefit is confidence and self-respect.

Cheers
Rick

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