never turn to an ex for a fuck - wayyy too many strings. and going away for the weekend isn't just a fuck.

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You're afraid of yourself, not him.

Why not go on the weekend and get good sex and fun? What's the reason not?

That you could get caught up in him beyond sex, once again? But don't want to?

I have no idea whether you are right that you shouldn't get involved again beyond just sex. (Well I have some idea, cause I think I know who it is in another post of yours you're referring to, but I still don't know enough from that.) But you sound sure.

My vote is that the tie breaker is do it. But be careful /protective / cold about your heart. Why? Because I always resolve uncertainty in terms of cautiously trying something scary rather than staying away. (Doesn't mean I don't stay away from lots of stuff.)

If you can't be protective about your heart, and you know for sure you don't want to be involved with him again, DON'T do it.

Best wishes sweetheart.

Edited by - dexplorer on Oct 26 2001

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Note: Not only am I drunk, but I also just returned from a strip club.

Naughty Nav adds....Boobies!!!!

PS: email me at endorphin@my.adultdvdtalk.com not my excite address.

Still Campaigning for Inari Vachs
I want a lover, who's gonna be another copy of Racquel Welch, I'm gonna buy her a house and a maid named Jill, spend the rest of our lives in Beverly Hills, I'll never have to feed her and she'll stay pretty all the time
Endorphin's ADT Lair
FREE THE WEED

Edited by - Endorphin on Oct 27 2001

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Don't do it.

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So, get a Sybian and make us a DVD! ;)

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Steph ~ I'm glad you asked, he left me for another woman! Please, keep reminding me of this!! heh heh. So, now he has left HER as well. See, he knows the secret, he always does the leaving. It's kinda funny because before I was so in love with him and willing to forgive him just about anything.
Not this time, baby. Like I told him, I'll just use him for sex. He seems OK with this.

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That changes things entirely. I had the impression you kicked him out for cheating. More than once.

Leaving you for someone else plain isn't good for get back to, seems to me. Without your getting really hurt again.

My guess is that for you buddy sex with him is going to be really difficult. In the sense of limiting your heart to that. Esp. if he's trying to worm his way back into a lot more. Which I bet he is. DANGER DANGER DANGER!!!

I think THIS ONE calls for rational thought and analysis, rather than following your heart or seeing how things work out.

You know this guy really well. Four years worth. You know you are damn attracted to him, aside from the hurt. If you don't think you are going to feel yeanings to have the mutual full bore love thing going with him again when he turns the energy back on to you while you're trying to do the fuck buddy thing, I think you are major kidding yourself. So girlfiend, you are GOING to fall in love with him again if you keep fucking him. He may have gone easy on intensity yesterday knowning how skittish you are, but don't imagine that's gonna last. You are gonna be a gonner girl, from all you've said about him and you on another thread, and above.

So what's called for is analyzing whether falling in love with him again is truly a bad thing or maybe not in this imperfect world. Given how in love you were before and what you say about him, I'd imagine what that really boils down to is whether you think 1) he's going to leave you again, and 2) he's going to cheat on you many more times.

1) is obviously a total deal killer. Putting yourself through that again, and ultimately wasting the time as well, is crazy. So if you aren't really convinced it wouldn't be HIM that walked away if you two fell in love again -- and the burden is DEFINITELY on him to prove something's changed -- then STAY AWAY PLEASE blondie!! There could be reasons you believe that wouldn't happen again if he fell as in love again, but I'm highly skeptical.

2) would also be an absolute deal breaker going in for 95++% of American women these days (unless perhaps the guy was a major celebrity, but still a large majority), but I have a somewhat different take on it. First though, I can just about guarantee you that with his history he's going to cheat on you again, at least after a while. It may well not be the full romance on the side sort of thing though. (Don't know enough.)

Unless that is you LET him sometimes have strange in a way that isn't behind your back and is within boundaries you set together. I mean after a while, you have in mind you might do that. If he wants to actually do that day 5 forget it for sure.

I'm back to a theme I've been exploring in various ways. Cause I think it's potentially pretty relevant here. There are two basic kinds of reasons men cheat. One is for the same reason that women usually do, if they do. And the other is for reasons which though they aren't unknown in women for sure, are far more of a pressure within guys, I'm utterly convinced, despite the highly prevalent current propaganda to the contrary. (Which really doesn't bear up under analysis at all, but is also a touchy subject often avoided.) A controllable urge, but its tough. Especially for highly sexed and attractive, successful guys.

The first reason to cheat is because true intimacy of one kind or another, including but certainly not only sexual intimacy, has drained out of the relationship. A lesser but related reason is simply some degree of sexual and / or emotional boredom from the same old same old. These especially the first make the cheating highly threatening and dangerous. To a significant degree the cheater IS looking for a full bore emotional replacement relationship, even if they aren't planning on changing residences. It's all the more emotionally hurtful for those reasons, unless the other partner has already given up and isn't financially or othewise threatened by a divorce (rare but not unheard of). As well turning to cheating rather than trying to repair or rejuvinate those things is also very destructive of the realationship for reasons other than irrational jealousy.

The second reason is simply the urge to have sex with additional partners, readless of how good it is at home or how much you are in love. Not necessarily better sex, or even different sorts of sex. Simply the urge to have sex with additional women. Men have these urges very strongly. Not all men I guess, and some repress them, but a large majority, at least if they have much sex drive and some success. The more of those things they have the stronger the urges. (This is the "men are all dogs" reason. Which of course is utterly outrageous misandrous bullshit. What men are is different from women, and this should receive some accomodation rather than only punishment as is currently femi fashionable.) Most pornography for the male market feeds off and plays to these urges (and is a safe outlet for them, among other things). Whereas women's erotica tends to be more along the lines of full bore love affairs on the side, or serial romances married or not, usually leading upwards in status. Does the name "Harlequin Romances" ring a bell ladies?

I'm sure this is all biologically wired in male hormones and other sex differences. The urge to spread the seed (since men don't have just one womb on an effective two year with breast feeding availability cycle regardless of number of partners, as women do). For women the evolutionary reproductive stategy is quality including someone who will stick around and contribute to raising junior. For men it's quality for where you're going to be pair bond contributing, and then quantity on the side for the cheap DNA spread. Anyway, whatever the reason, men with any alpha in them AT ALL are simply massively attracted to strange once in a while, and aren't necessarily all that picky about it. The theme here is more the best of what's readily available for strange.

So anyway, letting him have some strange once in a while in a way that gives you some control and some assurances, makes some sense (though that sure ain't the current Hollywood ideology, regardless of the actual Hollywood practive). Of course I think this permission needs to be available mutually. Probably best DONE mutually, esp. in today's ideological environment. And I think women can really enjoy this too from what i"ve read and to some extent experienced. There may not be the same wired in pressure to do this for women, but that doesn't mean it can't be a big thrill. Although very many don't usually THINK so before trying it in the right way a few times. (In some ways acting in pornos is one right way, if limited to that, and ignoring the surrounding drug subculture, etc. Which I've figured out explains my recent highly reved up fascination with behind the scenes.)

Women also tend to be more univerally jealous these days about their men than some men necessarily are about their women. For exactly a wrong, flipped reason. Because women tend to assume there will be the same motivations to "cheat" as they think (and may be right) they would have to have, and the same threat of his running off if he does cheat with someone attractive. Whereas in fact probably more care must be taken that women don't become romatically involved when doing some sort of upfront limited swinging than men. Cause of that wiring thing.

You know, really good sex for women generally is about losing control and surrendering in the moments of passion -- to that supposedly carefully chosen special man. He MUST be special if she has that surrender feeling going on, the dynamic somewhat goes. As opposed to really good sex for men being heavily about conquest and his own feelings (getting off) for sure but when its really good most of all how he can make the woman feel -- blow her away. Flirting and getting men to WANT it bad is women's form of conquest. Hence the fashion industry.

Swinging is different than open relationships. The later basically allow affairs, as long as you're honest and have permission -- which is VERY relationship dangerous. Swinging involves not just specific permission and honesty but also rules to limit involvement to just sex (often with some exhibitionism), or at most just buddy sex (more dangerous).

For example, he has to ask your persmission about the specific person always. It can't be extended with any one person -- maybe not more than once. You might or might not want to be there. He has to tell you about it if you want to know. Often what people do is require that everything be only with other couples with everyone present. The most important things of all though are the required permission, not behind your back, no secrets, and no emotional involvement.

When it is behind your back and there are secrets, there are intimate things about his life that this other woman knows that you don't. That is the germ of deepening intimacy and shifting identification and sharing, perhaps. (WAY less likely for men in my opinion than women, that surrender in the moments of really good sex thing and its after effects, but sure can happen.) He's hiding things from you and sharing them with her. It's the opposite when you know everything about the small and brief just sex deal between them and share that (and maybe plan it) with your SO.

This comes partly from some experience, and partly from reading and thinking about all this intensely for a while now. I know that this quasi swinger (or swinger) point of view is not something many (or maybe any) of the regular's here will agree with (although Steph has said that she was on the swinging side of a one way swing, or perhaps even open, relationship in the past). I've done some of this in two different relationships a while ago, although the first one wasn't a really serious relationship. We were in college and both knew we were too young to want to be permanent. BUt it was great and we good closer and more in love through the doing of some of it, though with some jealousies to work through. The second was a serious live together relationship a few years ago, but mostly involved occasional 2nd women since she was exploring bi and I loved the idea. Once she was with another guy (that I know of and wasn't behind my back -- though I think there weren't others.). It made me jealous, and scared, but also excited in a way in that she told me all about it and part of what got her off WAS making me jealous and excited. It ultimately probably helped our relationship because she let me have veto power, didn't want to involve herself there, much less leave me. And did break the short thing off when we both agreed. (We broke up when she went to law school.) All the rest of my relationships have been monogomous. Cheated on once, medium level. She stopped when I discovered. Hurt like hell. I forgave.

Anyway, enough for now. I sure want to talk with you more about these ideas blondie, specifically or generally, if you want to, but will stop here.

Back to your specific situation.

To summarize, if you know for sure that if he ever strays again behind your back in however limited a way, permitted or not, you will want nothing more to do with him -- then save yourself a lot of grief and stay away now. Cause you ARE going to fall back in love if you keep on seeing him blondie.

Gotta answer 1) above for yourself first.

How's that for brief? Sorry.

Edited by - dexplorer on Oct 28 2001

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I mean, I can appreciate the fact that you're just "fuck buddies", and that you're using him as much as he is you, but I dunno.. the circumstances (or what I know of them) makes me think you're just as well off picking up someone else to be FBs with, and not in some roundabout way "rewarding" this guy for dumping people left and right..

but then this is just my opinion, what do I know?

scipio

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My advice is get yourself another fuck buddy, they're a dime a dozen and they come free of history.

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That's actually one of the most acutely unfair things about the current state of the sexual "market place", in the current state of evolution of sex ideologies (and usual drives).

Any reasonable attractive (including well below average)youngish women (certainly mid-thirties or less) can find a wide array of fuck buddies most easily. The main problem is finding one who isn't too oppressively insistent on it becoming more.

A guy out of college and grad school (where it's much more even) has got to be either really attractve all in, or really lucky, to find a fuck buddy quickly and easily. Except maybe with an ex., depending on reasons for breakup.

Why -- cause most women out of school anyway aren't looking for fuck buddies. They're either doing a lot of circulation (slutting <g>) or looking for Mr. Right -- or mostly the latter with some of the former. But not looking for a steady fuck buddy.

Yeah, eventually if he's fairly attractive after a lot of looking a guy out of school can find a fuck buddy, but why not be looking for the real magilla, or the turnover, with that effort and time instead? What works better for guys in between is the whole serial search for Ms. Right routine (actually sincere or not), with some (or a lot of) fun slut encouters along the way, which ends up in a series of serial relationships of varying duration. From real short, to intermediate (which women often bitch about, cause it's sorta the male fuck buddy solution, while they were looking for committment if they got to that stage with him), to longer term.

Don't cha think?

Edited by - dexplorer on Oct 28 2001

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Yeah, that's the problem. I meet so few guys that I am this attracted to. He's very charismatic, but this time I've got it under control, I'm pretty sure. Even if I don't, I've never been one to live too cautiously, in fact I kinda like it on the edge. Which is why my life so far would read like a bad movie of the week, heh heh.
He probably WILL do it again, in fact I'm sure he will, but as long as I don't know about it, I don't care. Is that weird?
Dex, the thing about getting 'my permission' or having anything to do with it is out, that is not a scenerio I can ever imagine I'd want any part of. Not gonna happen.

One thing I DO know is, I'm NOT going to live with him. "I need my space" may be a worn out cliche, but it's true. Plus, they start to take you for granted. So, I guess maybe I'll 'date' him now and then. Fuck buddies? Hmm.. there's a lot more passion than that. Actually, this might work out real well, lol.
Thanks for all your input, I appreciate it!

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Here's what I'd suggest. At some point tell him what would be utterly unacceptable to you, in terms of outside actions or involvement. It isn't really his cheating on you in the way I described the second sort of males wanting sometimes conquest strange cheating, which is just about a male imperative for alphaish males. (I know women can't face this in the current ideological environment, but it's TRUE.) Don't give him permission for lesser fleeting transgressions. Leave it unspoken, iffy and dangerous for him. But DO tell him what you absolutely wouldn't stand for. Things not only like outside emotional involvement, but also embarrassing you among your friends or colleagues, or paying less attention to you, or treating you differently. Or doing anything frequently. (Without saying so maybe an occasional or rare, discrete, brief "conquest" isn't the end of your world. Maybe that unspoken permission makes him feel rarely privilged, in this American ideological environment.) Think carefully about this speech, informed by your heart, before you give it. And leave it at that.

If he transgresses this line, you've got to get rid of him. It could be an ever downward spiral otherwise.

The point of all this isn't remotely that any of this would be the main reason he'd be attracted to you. You already know that. But rather a big reason why he might remove the last barriers to adoring truly emotionally committing to you. Cause of the little tacit pressure release valve, in a limited sort of way.

In case you don't realize, I don't buy this "it's just gonna be sex and I can handle it" bit AT ALL. You're gonna fall in love with him again, and you want that but aren't admitting it to yourself. Just run if he doesn't also fall back in love with you. And also run if he violates the limits we're talking about here.

I think if you do that blondie, in the right sort of way, he just may end up thinking you aren't just 95% of a dream come true, but 99.99%, and the best that life's gonna offer him. And if he has half a brain he'll cherish the sh*t out of you and make you happy, mostly, and work damn hard at it.

And you two may live happily ever after. Mostly.

Best wishes sweetheart.

Jealous as hell, 'cause I want you bad, you hot charmer you.

Edited by - dexplorer on Oct 28 2001

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THAT's the reality, not "get along well" or "feel a little something". Yeah, she's not in love again yet… After one day.

It's dangerous. Not wrong. Blondie's said she'd rather live dangerously and risk getting hurt in the end (after thrills and fun), than carefully and be bored. It might work long term if she gave him some unusual freedom, tacitly or explicitly. (Blondie's saying tacitly, although part of her tacitly is she won't say it.[:] ) Of course she should take the same for herself. She doesn't think she wants it. I say think about that.

Sounds interesting.

--dexplorer, anti-dogmatist

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"And you two may live happily ever after. Mostly."

Somehow, I doubt this, but just living happily for any length of time is better than not, isn't it? I mean, I don't see anything as 'a waste of time' even if it is a horrible nightmare, and I won't mention any names but my ex-husband knows who I'm talking about - it still is a 'learning experience.'

"It might work long term if she gave him some unusual freedom, tacitly or explicitly. (Blondie's saying tacitly, although part of her tacitly is she won't say it.[:] )

But this would involve "talking about the friggin relationship" and he hates that (I'm not too crazy about it myself).
The thing is, he travels all the time, but this didn't bother me, in fact to me, it's an ideal situation because I don't wanna be around someone all the time, and it made the times he was home special.
So, he has plenty of freedom and opportunities, and he already knows how I feel. I do think I was too easy, or too forgiving, but I'm not one to hold a grudge.
Plus, I was horny, what can I say?

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