And yet it really does end there. All the production value in the world doesn't make up for an appauling lead footed, redundant story, poor dialogue, atrocious acting, and ridiculously long periods of time inbetween sex scenes.

It would be great to see a story told in porn with some finesses and intelligence. Could anyone recommend something like this out there.

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- Saki [faqs]

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I enjoyed it.

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Axel Braun

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However, you mentioned that the DVD format allows one to easily get to the sex scenes. So why would it matter if there was a long time between them in the film, because a person could just skip to them on the DVD.

However, the fact that it was nominated for best screenplay doesn't mean anything, and Belladonna and Taylor both winning Best Actress and Best Supporting Actress doesn't mean anything either, apparently. It would be appalling (or is it appauling?) if Belladonna won Best Actress in Barcelona AND Berlin too considering her acting was so atrocious.

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As my high school English teacher pointed out, it's a lot harder to be concise than verbose.

This reminds me of software programming. It used to be that programmers had to be very efficient and clever due to resource limitation. But now, with 200GB hard drives, it's not uncommon for programs to be 10-40MB each. Just because they can write bloatware doesn't mean they should.

Anyway, back to the point. I agree that Fash dragged at points, but I don't agree that the story was as leadfooted as TravisBkle makes it sound. And I really, honestly have not found many other adult movies that have anything approaching the quality of Fashionistas' story.

- Saki [faqs]

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However, if a movie is cohesive and doesn't drag and I'm enjoying it, I'm usually happy if it is longer.

When we were reviewing the movie while making the DVD, of course we second-guessed a couple things, but that's natural. We couldn't find any dialogue sections that we could eliminate or tighten up more. If anything, when writing the script and shooting the movie, we wanted to tie up the story between Rocco's character and Caroline Pierce's character (Leslie the buyer) better at the end.

So, without cutting sex out, there was no way to make it shorter.

I was really upset when I heard that Quentin Tarantino's movie Kill Bill was getting cut into two parts. If it's a cohesive story, keep it that way was what I thought. It was borderline whether I was going to see it or not anyway, but now I know I'll just wait for it on DVDs.

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But my critisms were factual. The plot is very poor, though neatly stylized in places, the dialogue is atrocious. However, I think my problem stems from a personal sense of injustice across the entire spectrum of porn, that you producers have the fortune of capturing something so visceral and real, if only this could be buttressed with some genuine humanity, and thought and ideas about sexuality.

As a footnote, I must say your response Tricia is very depressing and disappointing. I do not think my observations were meant to be spiteful. The spelling comment was really quite below you. I’m a huge fan of EA, as stated elsewhere, but you’re an established company, you shouldn’t need to converse about these aspects of the industry by replying only to restate how wonderfully received a film Fashionistas was. How can consumers ever offer genuine critisims if they will be treated that way. And more importantly how will companies like EA ever learn anything about the breadth of the marketplace they depend upon.

Edited by - TravisBkle on 9/14/2003 10:31:49 PM

Edited by - TravisBkle on 9/14/2003 10:37:45 PM

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Saki and others think the movie length were too long. There are people who think it was fine to watch in several sittings. And then there are a few people who have told me that they watched it all in one sitting and didn't notice the time until it was over.
Personally, I fall into the middle category.

"However, I think my problem stems from a personal sense of injustice across the entire spectrum of porn, that you producers have the fortune of capturing something so visceral and real, if only this could be buttressed with some genuine humanity, and thought and ideas about sexuality."
I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for. Moviegoing experiences in general, and especially for pornography are very individually subjective experiences, and it is nearly impossible to make a movie that will reach the general public on all levels.
I do think that there are more than a couple of porn directors who do their best to keep as many levels of their production as real as possible while breaking true grounds in being able to convey the emotions behind not only the characters, but the actors portraying them.

I'm sorry if I was too harsh in my first post. I usually shy away from responding to any criticisms about Fashionistas until I've had a few minutes to think about it, but I posted my guy reaction. After pouring myself into one project for the better part of a year, it's quite difficult to receive criticisms about that project once it's done and finished. Even if I agreed with you, there is nothing I could do about that project, and I am not the type of person who likes to have worked on something that ends up less than what I wanted it to be.

For example, I agree with you that having Europeans have to deliver so many lines in English is usually a bad idea. However, as far as the actual lines of dialogue that were written in the script, I personally didn't have a problem with them. So it's distressing to me, because I wonder if you were more bothered by the delivery of the dialogue or the written words themselves. If it's the scripted lines you were not happy with, I (and John) are not trained writers, and it occurs to me that maybe there were flaws that I simply didn't and can't see.
And as for the plot, I was quite pleased with the storyline that John came up with. I expected that there would be many people who were not comfortable with the thematic subject, but up until I read your post, no negative comments about the actual plot or storyline had reached me.

Today has been a humbling experience to say the least.

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That said, I think Evil Angle is to be commended for trying to do something new, different, and better. I also think it's a *good thing* that Tricia is so personally vested in FASHIONISTAS that she could be wounded by relatively mild critisism of her work. It's painfully obvious that many (most?) pornographers have no regard for their work, their audience, or themselves. In this business there are precious few "labors of love"; something we desparately need if pornography is ever to be anything more than stroke-fodder of the most base form.

Of course offering the world a "labor of love" makes its creator vulnerable in a way that the most savage double-anal pounding never could. Offering your best work invites critique, and when the negative comments come, there's no "that's what the audience wants" to hided behind. It stings, and it's especially painful when, in your heart of hearts, you know the critism is valid.

What I have been surprised and very pleased to find on AdultDVDTalk is a venue that supports intelligent discussion and critigue of pornography, while rarely slipping into a tiresome achedemic tone this is of no value when discussing porn. Pornography isn't literature and it isn't cinema. It's its own genre, with its own launguage, its own conventions, and its own unique relationship with its audience. That doesn't mean that it can't be, or shouldn't be art.

T.C.

Edited by - TonyC on 9/15/2003 5:32:49 PM

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The production values of the film (not necessarily the DVD presentation) more than enough made up for what I found wrong.

And then the fact I discovered Bella Donna can act very well. Better than Rocco, who has occassionally appeared in mainstream movies. I was impressed.

Tricia, I beg you and John, please do another high-production value work like FASHIONISTAS. But gear it toward couples instead of the raincoaters. Make it about love and affection. Make it tender, showing internal cum shots. You get the idea.

See if there is a market for it?

_______________________________

"The greatest argument for the existence of God,
is the beauty of the female form."
-- Blake_Fan

"The great ambition of women is to inspire love."
-- Moliere (1622-1673)

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I also agree with the "more is better" principle but I think it's valid to say that there's a limit to everything. Is another minute of the same type of action going to kill the mood? No. Is another 5 or 10 minutes? Perhaps. That's the beauty of DVD...you can include additional footage or outtakes in the supplementals and let the viewer decide.

I see so many 90-140 minute porn vids that really boil down to maybe 30 minutes of really watchable sex. I think that fortunately for Fashionistas, the ratio is much higher. But it still nags at me that the sex scenes ran a bit on the long side--more in the variety of action than on the actual number of minutes.

- Saki [faqs]

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- Saki [faqs]

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Is it as good as they say? Yes! You can imagine how the theme ("wild sexual ride into the underground S&M scene") might turn me off, and the girls are not my type, &etc, but none of that matters. It is a masterpiece. There is nothing about this movie I didn't like, and when I finished it (just a few minutes ago) I felt exhilarated. This movie has the potential of revolutionizing the industry as much as "The Adventures of Buttman" did in 1989. Imagine the Stagliano of "Buttman Confidential" finally getting it together and realizing his full potential as a director, and you will fall short of what he accomplished here. It is better than you could have thought him capable. Masterfully shot and edited from the first frame to the last, it looks and sounds gorgeous throughout. The "dramatic mystery love story" works, the dialogue is intelligent, and the cast so good that they should be regarded as true collaborators in this work of art. When Stagliano says, "It is a highly charged erotic experience, not intended for the novice porno viewer," this is precisely true. Your mind must be open and you must be willing to let Stagliano lead you into a world you might not otherwise choose to visit. He almost lost me in Taylor's dom scene with Rocco, until it resolved most gratifyingly, and thereafter I was hooked. But in retrospect I am surprised at the enthusiastic reception this movie got on ADT: it shows a sophistication I did not suspect. No question a lot of people are going to hate this movie. It is no jerk-off fodder for the typical porn-user, but a sex movie of truly mainstream quality. So don't expect to be in a state of arousal throughout. You may fairly expect to be fascinated, however, and--if you love porn--deeply grateful to John Stagliano.

I post this as I am hearing not only unfair criticism but lukewarm praise for a movie I regard very highly.

Edited by - David X on 9/15/2003 5:08:49 PM

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I read your comments on this thread with great interest, particularly your statement:

"What I have been surprised and very pleased to find on AdultDVDTalk is a venue that supports intelligent discussion and critigue of pornography, while rarely slipping into a tiresome achedemic tone this is of no value when discussing porn. Pornography isn't literature and it isn't cinema. It's its own genre, with its own launguage, its own conventions, and its own unique relationship with its audience. That doesn't mean that it can't be, or shouldn't be art."

In some ways, I agree with your description. However, it seems to me that when dealing with feature adult films, I can't think of another established artistic standard by which to compare their accomplishments (or lack thereof) other than to mainstream films. In other words, why shouldn't any other film of any genre be held to the standards of cinema? Granted, even amidst all the mainstream junk, it's a high standard (requiring believable acting, well-written storylines and so on and so forth). But shouldn't that the goal?

In the case of Stagliano's work, I think that he has created his own very specialized and stylized niche in adult (i.e., features like WILD GOOSE CHASE which employ "Buttman"-style direction). But other flicks like those produced by Vivid or Wicked certainly derive their inspiration from modern cinema, and therefore shouldn't their merits be held against that critical criteria.

[After re-reading the above, but not having the heart to delete it just yet, I realize this may be off-topic, so moderators...do what you must...]

Diesel

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This must have worked, at least at first, because there are literally hundreds of examples of films produced in this style. I'm sure the first audiences didn't spend a lot of time worrying about whether or not someone could do something better with a camera, a chorus line of gorgeous girls and a catchy song; twere delighted just to be able to see all those pretty girls with their bare legs and bare bellies.

My point, if it's not already painfully clear, is that cinema didn't begin to come into its own until it left behind the conventions of the theater. Early television spend a few years thinking it was televised radio before it figured out what would and wouldn't work on that little glowing box.

So maybe the question shouldn't be how can we make our porn features more like mainstream features, but rather should we be making porn features at all?

T.C.

Edited by - TonyC on 9/15/2003 10:23:30 PM

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In the eighties and nineties, most porn consisted of a 75 minute feature, loaded with five run-of-the-mill sex scenes (and the obligatory lesbian scene), and produced under the most impoverished production standards. But at the very, very, very, very least...there was more imagination and more creativity than the overwhelming gonzo videos currently being churned out by the most popular studios. Even an admittedly mediocre flick like TRICK TRACY (directed by FJ Lincoln and starring Lauren Hall and Randy West) made modestly successful attempts at satire and characterization. (It was certainly more entertaining than the last David Spade movie I've had the displeasure of seeing.) Of course, even the best adult films of the recent past, such as BAD WIVES, can't come close to meeting mainstream standards, but at least they help elevate the ghetto-ized genre that which is fuck flicks because they embrace higher standards of cinema.

I would be thrilled if porn could even come close to mastering the conventions of modern movies, but it seems as though they still have a long, long way to go. However, to me, this type of porn is far more interesting than the latest shot-on-Betacam, triple anal cum-felching gangbang flick made today. (Not that I don't enjoy a good Red Light District or Anabolic flick whenever it comes my way.)

What I lament is the current trend of the last five years or so, which is moving away from feature productions in exclusive favor of gonzo. Without being subjected to the critical criteria of modern film, pornos have become cheaper looking, cheesier and more creatively bankrupt with every release. And with those kinds of values, ain't no way this genre can ever approach "art."

Diesel

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Yeah. I have nothing intelligent to add to this conversation. I just wanted to say: that Taylor St. Claire/Rocco scene? That's some hot shit right there! Yeah!

Anyway, at the video store I go to they have all sorts of different sections. Among these are: all-girl, Evil Angel, Extreme, Anabolic/Diabolic, compilation, new releases, classic, couples, all-male, and interracial. This brings me to the one that I find myself frequenting: single viewing. These are, of course, mostly gonzo tapes plus those couples tapes that didn't rent well. It's just the "single viewing" up there indicating that these aren't tapes for couples always struck me as odd and slightly depressing, but it is true. So much of gonzo seems to be made with the single viewer in mind and not the couple. However, I would imagine that if you are a couple tired of lame Vivid/JKP material as well as assembly line gonzo then "Fashionistas" would be one of the best movies out there for ya'.

That's just my opinion and I could be wrong.

Kelly

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Can you imagine the equivalent of Six Feet Under or 24 but adult themed? Each "movie" in the series could be a separate episode in a continuingly evolving plot and with character development. Tied together by caring for the characters and wondering what will happen to them next. That would be awesome. Has anybody ever actually done a real adult series or "miniseries"? Currently any "series" we have is nothing more than a name with an incrementally increasing number after it with each relase having no bearing whatsoever with anything that came before.

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I know that some of the extras are missing as it is only on two discs, but is it a Euro version, containing additional material?

Thanks

Paul

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