I know the forum etiquette has the general mesage: "Please do not talk about pornstars ... as if they are not here ...We are lucky to have industry participants, and they are paying attention to your constructive criticism. Insults will get you nowhere and lead to the deactivation of your forum account." However, I think this needs to be expanded to specifically mention cosmetic surgery (& injections).
I'll admit I'm not on the star crossed forum often, but when I am, it seems that if a performer has had cosmetic treatments that a poster is not a fan of, they believe they have some kind of duty to go on that performer's thread and abuse them.
The other day a poster made such a comment, and they were, politely, called out on it. But their response to this was "Lol You can keep jerking off to this plastic face girl with fake boobs if you want." [I won't link to it.]
So, not only insulting to the performer, but then basically mocking anyone who finds them attractive. I believe this is also common.
Also, maybe a performer has had such a procedure, and they're not fully pleased with the outcome. In that case, do they really need a whole bunch of people publicly deriding them?
I propose a specific message, something along the lines of this.
When a performer has had cosmetic surgery (or injections), and you are not a fan of their new look, you have the option to no longer follow them. Please don't post disparaging comments about their new appearance.
Edited by - Simple Simon on Sep 20 2020
[Link]
Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Sep 17 2020 : 11:14PM
^ I know the situation you are referring to, it happened in the Elsa Jean Star Crossed thread earlier this week. When you see out-of-line posts like that in a thread, the best thing to do is to simply alert the moderators to the post; you can do that by clicking on the [report] link or "Message Moderator" link that can be found on every thread page. Give a brief description of the offesnive post and when you send it, all of ADT's moderators receive a private message with your report. Let them handle it. The worst thing you can do with people who make posts like that is to acknowledge them by posting a reply.
^ This is not about not about that thread or those comments. That was just an example. It's a general discussion about disparaging comments on cosmetic treatments.
I think some posters don't actually see such comments as insulting. That if a performer's appearance has changed, and they don't like the new look, they have a right to go on that performer's thread and say so.
I think posters posters need a specific reminder that they don't have such a right.
Off-topic. In the mainstream world, when a performer has cosmetic surgery, and people like the outcome, they are admired and praised. But when people don't like the outcome, the performer is mocked and derided. Huh?
^ Absolutely not. One can express a preference for before vs after without being denigrating or insulting. ______________________________________________________________________________________
Playing devil's advocate, why does there need to be a specific mention of criticizing people's appearance after cosmetic procedures? I could cite other sanctions people have faced for things that aren't specifically written on the Etiquette page.
I assume the moderators hadn't been prescriptive intentionally in believing common sense should prevail. What areallyfatchick said of Elsa is insulting and anything but constructive criticism, both of which are referred to in your quote from the Etiquette page.
If a rule is to be put in place, I think it should simply state not to speak disparagingly of a performer's appearance under any circumstances.
[Link]
Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Sep 18 2020 : 4:20PM
Personally, I may express my disappointment when a performer I like decides to "enhance" herself, however, I don't do it in their Star Crossed thread (even if the performer is not an ADT member that posts in their SC thread). But if it's a topic brought up in, say, a Porn Pool thread, I will express my thoughts there. For instance, in the Tushy.com Official Thread, I did say how I wished Elsa had done this showcase before she "enhanced" herself.
And how did I know when I saw a Mod. posting on a performer's thread that it was going to be asking people not to pejoratively comment on performers appearance following a cosmetic procedure?
Mod: "No one needs to hear for the one millionth time that a random ADT poster liked her [appearance] better before. Just move on."
If a specific guideline is added regarding comments on a person's appearance after they have work done, what's to stop somebody from making a disparaging comment about someone's natural appearance and hanging on to the rule against commenting about somebody's appearance after a cosmetic procedure as their defence? Sometimes less is more.
There was a forum poster who derailed numerous threads calling out several performers to explain why they had not worked with black guys. He was admonished to accept that a porn performer is welcome to choose who or who not to work with without explanation. Should moderators make a rule not to harass performers on who they have or haven't worked with?
^ Well, the rule about not talking about performers as if they're not here would still apply. This should just be an addition.
With public figures having cosmetic injections/surgery, I think the public have this belief that when they don't like the outcome, they have free reign to mock the individual.
Again with my off-topic. We can assume that, over a certain age, most (mainstream, male and female) celebrities have had some form of cosmetic procedure(s). This process where we praise them and admire them when we like the outcome, but deride them and laugh at them when we don't, is a little strange.
^ While I agree about non-porn performers in the public eye being the subject of ridicule by the tabloids when they have work done, I don't see what compelling argument you've made to warrant an addition when what you said about not talking about performers as if they're not here should cover speaking unkindly of one's appearance after cosmetic procedures.
Public figures are also often mocked when their appearance changes, especially when gaining body fat (not that thin shaming doesn't happen in the media). It wasn't long ago that somebody here made a disagreeable remark about a performer's apparent weight gain and they were censured for it, yet I don't see you advocating a rule addition against body shaming for those who haven't undergone a cosmetic procedure but their appearance has changed considerably nonetheless.
^ "not talking about performers as if they're not here should cover speaking unkindly of one's appearance after cosmetic procedures"
Well it should, but unfortunately it doesn't. When I read the star crossed thread, people feel they have this right to deride someone after they've had cosmetic procedures.
I actually saw a case where on a performers thread a poster was openly and repeatedly deriding the performer after finding out they'd had breast implants. When called out on it, kept doing it. The performer themselves came on and asked that the poster be removed.
So yes, I think because of this a specific rule regarding cosmetic procedures should be introduced.
^ Is there a particular reason you've completely skirted around me calling out the fact you haven't called for a specific rule regarding significant weight gain or loss?
People have posted in the Star Crossed forum like it's their right to deride a performer who's gained notable weight. Similarly a forum poster had repeatedly spoken ill of a performer who gained considerable weight was warned by the moderators and their posts were removed yet they continued and got banned. That's not hugely dissimilar from what you described of someone who had breast implants.
What gives cosmetic procedures special privileges over weight gain that only the former should have specific rule in forum etiquette when performers in either demographic have been subjected to mockery and abuse in the forums? Why would a suggestion of a rule against speaking disparagingly of a performers's appearance under any circumstances be inappropriate?
^ Reading Star Crossed, the impression I get is that when it comes to cosmetic procedures, many posters feel when a performer has had cosmetic procedures, and they don't like the performers new appearance, they feel they have an automatic right to abuse them. Yes, this can also apply to forms of physical changes, but from what I've seen on ADT, cosmetic procedures are treated differently.
This was a refreshing comment on Star Crossed the other day
^ I don't deny what you've said about many posters but I disagree with the apparent implication that their behaviour is unique to those who have undergone a cosmetic procedure.
I have observed that when it comes to weight gain, many posters feel when a performer has had gained significant weight (namely body fat), and they don't like the performers new appearance, they feel they have an automatic right to abuse them.
The inflated sense of entitlement to be abusive toward performers and/or speak ill of them due to a change in their appearance isn't limited or specific to cosmetic surgery hence my questioning why you propose it gets special privileges over something else performers are abused for.
Why give some idiot a chance to plead (under a great misapprehension) that because they didn't see a rule specifically pointing out weight gain but they did for cosmetic procedures, they thought that making an unkind comment a performer over weight gain is fair game?
Every comment that could insult the performer is a bad one but it is sometimes hard to decide whether your comment could be deleted or it could lead to a ban in the thread or even the deletion of your account.
To express your opinion about a cosmetic procedure being needless in a polite way should be okay imo. The same with friendly comments about lost or gain of weight (f.e. that you also liked her look or shape before).
If you look at the Polls Thread (where we all post now and then...) you will find quite often the comment that someone prefers actress A because she has a natural body whereas actress B has enhanced boobs or surgery marks. Isn´t that kind of insulting either in case actress B would ever make it to the Polls Thread?
So as I said: where to start with forum etiquette?
^ I'm certainly not privy to the moderators rules but the only time I've seen somebody get banned for a first offence insulting a performer is for a first post, presumably because of the suspicion it's a troll account.
The removal of a post comes from simply saying something you probably won't say to their face without expecting a slap or being insulted in return. With such a case, a moderator would refer you to forum etiquette. From what I've seen, a thread ban comes when an offender openly defies the moderator's admonishment to observe forum etiquette, particularly when the mod has called out the offender in the topic. A ban comes after that.
I think it's one thing to state a preference for a woman with no cosmetic procedures done and definitely another to call someone disgusting or say she looks ridiculous for whatever work she's had done.
So not long ago, a performer had a few new scenes released. It was undeniable that she'd gained some weight but this was nothing like the extreme gain in body fat we'd seen some actors take on for movie roles, not that the latter matters either. A forum regular felt duty-bound to air his disdain for her weight, asking for a memo when she went back to a size that he approves of. When he was called out and referred to forum etiquette, he doubled down, mocking those "defending" her appearance and claiming free speech protected him despite misunderstanding what free speech actually means. He was banned with all of the pertinent replies being deleted.
This perfectly affirmed why I don't think there should be a specific rule against making disparaging comments about a performer's appearance for cosmetic procedures when it was evident that disparaging comments are made about changes in a performer's appearance for "reasons" other than cosmetic work.
On a performer's thread, a moderator had to intervene and state to posters:
"folks that's enough. [The performer] reads this thread. Do you think she wants to read about how 'depressing' her choices for body modification are, or how "unnecessary" her decisions are?" (source)
You've still lost me as I have yet to see how your case merits making additional rules on cosmetic procedures without the same being done on those whose appearance changes due to weight gain for example.
I am really skeptical of any views that performers would want to see disparaging remarks written about them after gaining noticeable body fat. I don't see how this differs significantly enough from performers not wanting unfavourable comments about them exercising their bodily autonomy to have cosmetic work to warrant its own rule nor do I see why a catch-all rule against making denigrating remarks about a performers appearance under any circumstances isn't enough.
"any facial 'enhancements' were totally unnecessary"
"Her new tits are genuinely depressing. So tired of all these girls going for the same set of rock hard bolt-ons. So many are doing it lately that it feels like there is some weird conspiracy lol"
Yes, this could apply to any type of bodily change, but when a porn performer has a cosmetic procedure, and some people don't like the outcome, those people feel they have an absolute right to go on a public forum and deride the performer's changed appearance.
I think cosmetic procedures need to be treated differently on ADT because many posters feel they have this absolute right.
----------------------------------------
I see that due to such comments this thread had to have a stern moderator message followed by being locked.
The same attitude has been shown to those who gained weight.
One forum poster said "Did [Performer X] eat another performer?" in response to seeing Performer X having gained some weight. Another said "Can I get a memo when [Performer Y] isn't so fat and gets back to a normal size?" That same performer went on a rant opining an inalienable right to deride Performer Y's appearance. Performer Z gained notable body fat and while some users appreciate both before and after (some very enthusiastic in a positive way about her curves) but a few spoke disparagingly of performer Z and of those praising her appearance. They "defended" their arguments with their supposed inalienable rights to use a public forum.
I still don't see a distinction between the derision of weight gain or cosmetic procedures as many posters have claimed an absolute right to do so in both instances.
I think that thread was baited albeit not intentionally. Start a similar discussion on weight gain under a pretence of asking why and not one of openly criticizing performers, named or unnamed, and I'd imagine similar vitriol would be spat its way.
This topic on cosmetic surgery is rather civil. http://forum.adultdvdtalk.com/boob-jobs-gone-good/. If anything it shows that discussions on cosmetic surgery are not inherently doomed to result in unrest or hostility.
- I can update my suggestion to also include weight change.
Re. the final suggestion, what about we update the forum etiquette to include this:
When a performer's appearance has altered due to cosmetic treatments or weight change, and you are not a fan of their new look, you have the choice to no longer follow their new work. Please don't post disparaging comments about their changed appearance.
If an addition were to be put it, I'd prefer more of a catch all like this:
"If a performer's appearance isn't to your liking, be it natural, from cosmetic treatments, due to weight change, etc, you reserve the inalienable right to not follow their work. Do not post disparaging comments about their appearance under any circumstances."
I would be tempted to wager that being prescriptive about a change in appearance will invite a try-hard to plead technicalities if they don't like a performer's natural appearance or if the performer's new appearance was the first time they saw them and didn't like it.
^ I disagree and congratulations on going back in circles.
I genuinely fail to understand why a catch all rule against posting disparaging comments under any circumstances won't be sufficient. Anyone pleading more explicit rules not being in place in this instance either lacks maturity, honesty or common decency and deserves whatever sanctions they get for hurling insults.
While a moderator didn't eventually make a decree of their own other than post edits, numerous posts were deleted or censored in this topic. Just because you may not have seen serial insults and abusive remarks about or toward perform performers who gained weight, it doesn't mean they didn't happen.
With moderator edicts apparently giving credence to suggestions, shall we also propose a suggestion that they place a rule not to harass white female performers who hadn't done so or refuse to work with black male performers as there is a precedent of it also?
There are rules in place explicitly stating that links to tube sites and illegal file sharing platforms are not to be posted but oddly enough, it still happens, even with people who've posted hundreds of times before. There's even the odd idiot who behaves like they're hard done by as if the moderators were acting unjustly. This precedent hardly fills me with confidence that your proposal would make a lick of difference.
We have dumbasses who do not read the etiquette requirements or are socially inept to understand what is actually polite conversation when the person is in the room. They think the anonymity of the Internet allows them to say whatever comes to their mind so making the rules explicit is not going to solve anything. The etiquette rules justify just banning them.
15 to 20 years ago we could ask people to be polite and to "not post things in the forum that you wouldn't say in the person's presence." A good portion of people interested in porn these days have grown up on the internet and often have no idea what's socially unacceptable for in-person conversation.
I also think maybe we should start banning people for being too stupid to use the search function to see if maybe someone posted something slightly similar to what they are contemplating posting. Can't have duplicate topics here. That might be offensive.
No argument from me. Like I said originally, the etiquette rules cover the douchebaggery as it stands. I doubt being more prescriptive in the rules will make any difference.
So, under my proposal, it wouldn't be allowed to say anything pejorative about a performer after they've had a cosmetic procedure. However, I wonder if it is okay to say something positive?
Is 'congratulations on your nose surgery. You look great' really appropriate?
Congrats on your vaginal rejuvenation! You look less like the Holland Tunnel now and that's totally a good thing. Please don't do the same with your dump-hole. I love the hang time of your gapes after quintuple anal.
OK. If we're not going to change the forum rules, how 'bout when a guy says how much he hates breast implants, we make this the standard forum response?
I don't understand why it's so hard for some people to put themselves in someone else's shoes. I hope mods take a hard line on comments that disparage a performer's physical appearance.
Would add that I think that ought to extend to male performers as well as female performers.
^ Posters here a genuinely shocked when they're called out on such things. Their response is almost always along the lines of 'Hey! I'm allowed to have an opinion.'. That's why i think something needs to be formally stated in the forum etiquette.
As for your second point, i agree. In society in general, it's considered unacceptable to disparage a woman's physical features, but when men are mocked for being short or fat or unattractive or ... they're expected to just laugh along with it.
When a woman's had a cosmetic procedure, she might not actually be happy with how it turned out, and might actually regret it. In that case, do they really need the whole world telling them how stupid they were?
On women's outlets, i actually see articles on well known women who have stated they regret having their cosmetic procedures. It reminds of women who previously been in the sex industry saying they now regret it, didn't understand what they were doing, are now against the industry, ...
They basically have to say such things in order to be accepted in mainstream society.
