ADT is suppose to mean Adult DVD Talk not Any Divisive Topic.

Maybe this isn't the place to suggest this, but wouldn't a newbie forum make a lot of sense. Let someone get there feet wet there, before giving them the ability to troll the main forum.

It's not that I think this post is particularly trollish, but it sometimes seems like people get worked up over something at another board and then run over here to continue the drama.

CC

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While the process may be repetitive on some styles of porno I have to respectfully disagree with the premise of this thread. What has gotten stale in my mind is seeing the same talent over and over and over and over again.

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It's only getter better & better!

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Some of what you call fads, I call long overdue. What roughs me up is the formulaic, by the numbers approach you'll hear decried and despised almost universally on the boards here. Granted, there are only so many holes and so many positions, but the tease / strip /eat pussy (maybe!) / blowjob / vag / anal / facial routine is as tired as I'm feeling lately.

Also, there are only a limited number of 'extreme acts' you can physically perform, then the dog finally catches its own tail. It will be its own undoing. Too often, these acts are perpetrated against performers who don't enjoy them for the sheer ability to be able to claim it on the boxcover: "see it all, hear it all, you won't believe your eyes". One of my side interests is sideshow acts, and I gotta tell you, the line separating porn from The Modern Gypsies or the Bindlestiffs is getting thinner and thinner.

--Hey, maybe they could team up and start having things like "see girls get their nipples electrocuted with car batteries!" "Watch as they swallow dildos made out of neon lights!"

(Is it dildos or dildoes, we didn't learn that one in Grammar class.)--

Now, back to my original point, before I forget. Short term memory loss, what a concept.

Some of the things you describe, deepthroating, swallowing, etc. are really not all that uncommon in the 'real world'. Spreading a girl's ass open and yelling "BEAM!", now that's just weird...but a lot of people like it, or at least enjoy watching it.

Personally, I wouldn't stick my dick in an ass that's already occupied with another, but that's where all this gets gray and subjective. What's fun to watch vs. do, all that. Too lazy to type, sheesh.

Unfortunately, these acts you mention are rarely shown in the context of a consensual, unscripted encounter. That's what makes what some performers do so special. There's a thread I'm too lazy to link to at the moment where Speelie describes real heat, real connections, real intensity between the men and women involved because the guys take the time to hang out with the girls beforehand and actually get to know them. There's a rough idea of what will happen, but other than that it's just 'let it roll'. It seems more genuine and real, and those are my faves; others hate it.

That said, for some people there's a hotness factor in knowing that a girl is engaging in such vile acts with someone they just met or are about to meet; a total stranger. Throw 'em to the wolves, meat in, sausage out, cut, wrap, compile, edit, replicate, sell.

I love a scene "out of order". I don't care if it's just a trick in the editing booth. Mix it up. Let's see the oral *after* the vaginal. Let's see her or him actually apply the lube for the anal. How about sex while fully clothed, just pulled aside in the frenzy to satisfy that passion? When you bend the wife or gf over the counter in the kitchen on a whim, you don't make her strip, spread her cheeks and tell you how old she was the first time she sucked cock, do you? Porn does not echo reality, it offers its own distorted view of it, based on what the people who make it think or have been told we, the viewing public, want to see.

There's no obligation on their part to add 'quality of experience' to the mix. Some do, and those are the ones who get my $$. You have to eat a lot of oysters to find the pearls.

I gotta admit, I'm pretty burnt out, too. Or was. It doesn't take long. Once you realize that with few exceptions it's an endless parade of new faces, new bodies, same tired scenes over and over, you do stop watching (and caring).

But there *ARE* exceptions, RM. I'd hate your first post to be your last, just because you're disgusted with the way things are. There are people involved in the production of adult movies who actively participate in these boards. Find them and tell them, some of them actually listen! Not all -- some of them more than justify your position and don't care at all about you or the quality of the trash they produce (I ain't naming no names, no sirree, not me, never). Others will blow you away with how open, honest, and sometimes hilarious they are (and they *will* take your suggestions very seriously, or will tell you why they can't or won't).

We're all just folks trying to find a common ground. I guarantee you will find people out here whose tastes mirror yours, and you will be able to collaborate on smut that fires your jets. It may not be my cup of tea, or the next guy or gal's, but that's what makes the world go 'round! Yes? No? Fuck you? Oh well, it's all the same to me.

Hope to see you around. Peace out

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Cal444
Somewhere

Edited by - cal444 on 9/24/2003 6:52:27 PM

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T.C.

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ReasonableMan has stated his thoughts in a reasonable manner, so let's not label him a troll just because we don't like his opinions.

To my mind, gonzo's problem lies in the thirst for new talent versus the need to get talent that has screen presence. The fact that new generally overrides presence means that many of us are not engaged by the scene, as we're left with just the mechanics of the sex acts involved.

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Outstanding post! You say it much better than I can. :)

Here's the link to Speelie's fantastic thread, which is shaping up to compliment this thread nicely. I think you might find it interesting, ReasonableMan:

Sexy Scenes & Such

Mike L.

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"To my mind, gonzo's problem lies in the thirst for new talent versus the need to get talent that has screen presence." - Hardware

Regarding these statements, you guys nailed it on the nose 100%. There's so many studies now that are, for the most part, putting out some top notch gonzo porn. In fact, there's over a dozen of them now. But, all of these same studios continue to use the same female talent over and over again to the point where there's no, or very little, differentiation between one studios DVD from another.

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Cal444
Somewhere thinkin

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I'm aware of the new titles from diabolic coming out simultaneously packed with extras so I'll be sure to check them out. On a positive note, perhaps the early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese?

DreamWeaver
Somewhere looking through his anabolic porn

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I do think that Red Light District Video, perhaps more than any other studio, goes out of their way to infuse their movies with fresh girls, while still employing the popular mainstays that us ravenous porn fans demand. Dion regularly sends his crews all over the world towards this objective (he even plans to send a crew to Japan in the near future). Other studios excel at this also, but I think RLD is the best at it.

Pontus

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Insofar as studios putting out top-notch gonzo, opinions vary. I think that the pictures are sharper, the acts are more explicit and harder-edged, but, as an example, I haven't seen Crystal Ray do anything that compares to the work Tiffany Mynx did before many of these companies existed. Why? Because Tiffany has presence, while Crystal just seems to be going through the motions. This is the point I tried to make in my previous post.

It will be interesting to see what Cal's come up with.

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Hmmm, I think that adds up to Joey Silvera.

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Edited by - Tom on 9/25/2003 12:27:54 AM

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Tell me what you think about this...

Today I was shooting a scene for an upcoming movie (as I usually am on most days) when without warning the gardener arrived at the location (this isn't part of some hackneyed plot I assure you) After hearing a leaf blower fired up about ten feet away from the room I shooting in, it became very apparent that I couldn't continue shooting until the gardening was completed and the leaf blowers went away. I put the camera down, went to the kitchen to get a soda and when I returned to the set a few minutes later I found that the male and female talent for the scene were still banging each other with tremendous enthusiasm despite the fact that no cameras were present.
It stuck me as incredibly erotic, almost as though I wasn't supposed to be seeing it. Keep in mind that I'm an extremely jaded and hardened pornographer for whom very little causes genuine arousal. This never happens.
I suppose my point is this : the talent in this scene weren't playing for the camera. They weren't "opening up the action" so that I could get unshadowed closeups of the hardcore. They were just into each other. And though we always try to cast people together who actually want to work together somehow I felt like what I didn't shoot today was hotter than what I did shoot (what I did shoot was quite good however :) ) Is it possible that a scene can still be considered a success without all of the requisite "positions" where the action is clearly visible or is this type of thing where you had to be there?

Often what looks good on camera doesn't necessarily feel good. Next time you have sex with your spouse, girlfriend or reasonably priced prostitute, try doing it with your female partner reaching back to spread her right butt cheek open while you lift your left leg uncomfortably forward and possibly even hoist your own nutsack so it's out of the way.

I've rambled long enough. Somebody please add two more cents.

Quaze

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It's not that I think this post is particularly trollish, but it sometimes seems like people get worked up over something at another board and then run over here to continue the drama.

CC

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I've come to think that "gonzo", however you define it, depends almost entirely on an endless supply of new talent to be successful. Many of the posts in this thread seem to suggest that: the real problem is that the girls are the same, or the girls lack presence, etc. I remember someone once complaining about Jules Jordan, in that he shoots good stuff, but why does he use the same girls in many of his videos? The viewer in this instance felt he was being cheated; by watching the same girl two or three times in JJ's work, he was in effect buying the same scene over and over (not true, but you can follow the logic, I think).

Mind you, I'm not saying that Hardware, for example, is wrong is saying a lot of the talent lacks the charisma of many of the older girls. And I think there are a lot of reasons for that, many of which have more to do with the nature of the industry today than the girls themselves. However, that's a different topic. But I also think there is a law of diminishing returns at work here: no matter how much you like a performer, if you see her in the same type of scene, going through the same drill, over and over, you may eventually lose interest. This may not be true of every viewer, but it is for me.

I loved Speelie's post, by the way, and I think he raises a lot of good points, to which I would add: if no one in the scene is interested in the girl's pleasure, if no one is pursuing HER orgasm--if she is, has Max Hardcore used to call his co-stars, just a "cock socket"--then why should she do anything but sleepwalk through the scene?

The question I often ask myself is this: if gonzo porn had a small talent pool of girls (instead of the biggest in its history), would all these companies be in business now? Would there be more interest in imaginative, hot sex, instead of just quantity? Nowadays (as ReasonableMan says) gonzo too often is the same scene, shot over and over, with a different body on the couch. Without this incredible endless stream of pretty young unemployed females, would gonzo be able to operate the way it does? Is the new girl just an "out" to make another tired scene?

Just some thoughts.

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Gonzo was different, because they were basically 2:20 minutes of wall to wall sex.

For porn fans that meant more fuck for the buck.

Of course the fact Stagliano was a fantastic director who really knew how to shoot a scene didn't hurt.

It simply boiled down to the fact that a Buttman movie usually had more sex in it than any other three movies you could rent/buy.

Today Gonzo has lost it's meaning, at least to me anyway.

CC

Edited by - Cyberchicken on 9/25/2003 6:16:59 AM

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(...and thanks, Mike!)

I want to elaborate a little bit on what Mike Quasar said, which reminded me of one of my own points (I had one?), forgive me if I repeat myself:

* What is something fun to watch that is not nearly as much fun to do ? Piledriver comes to mind. A few years ago, I couldn't wait to try that at home!

The verdict: you better have strong thighs, and your lady friend is going to have her body weight pushed down on her neck and shoulders, especially when you start thrusting. Gets old.

It looks great on camera, though!

* A lot of what is fun to do is not fun to watch , especially if (borrowing from Quaze's example) someone is telling you your hairy ass is in the shot and could you please move your left nut? I feel bad for male talent (OK, to be perfectly honest, I laugh) because they bend themselves into pretzels so you wankers won't have to see their bunghole or their swinging nutsack or their face.

"Real" sex, good sex, is (generally) more fun to do than watch, because of the sheer fact that by doing what feels best, you're probably obscuring the shot!

Not always, I've seen a lot of great POV work that looks like it felt as great as it looked. That shuts the laughter up PDQ, and all I can say is "Mother of all Fuck...and he got *PAID* for that! There ain't no justice."

All that aside, what really stood out to me about what Mike Quasar said was this little nugget:

"...the talent in this scene weren't playing for the camera".

To me, that sounds hot. I like to see people have fun, and enjoy what they're doing, and enjoy each other's company. Idealistic? Yeah. But let's not kid ourselves -- we'd get as sick of that over time as anything else. If you love salisbury steak, and that's all that's on the buffet every day for a month, you'll grow to hate that shit. Is this any different?

And I admit I'm a perfect hypocrite because I do enjoy the flip side of the coin: watching dominant male talent push submissive female talent's boundaries and all that touchy feely warm and fuzzy shit flies out the window (what a visual). We all make choices, we are all masters of our destiny, and if you choose to accept money to be submissive in an explicit video, you take your medicine or walk the fuck out.

Salisbury steak one day, flank steak with horseradish sauce the next. (Yum!)

I don't watch enough of this stuff to be as burnt out on the "small talent pool" as some. I like who I like, though, and I know I wouldn't like seeing five scenes with them where only the bedspread and the dick in them was different.

(Take a break for a few months, read some good books, and then the talent pool will be different -- problem solved, you're welcome)

If I have a point this time around, I think it's this: some brands of gonzo are going to wither and die because people stop buying them. New things will appear to fill that void. It's amorphous, and a moving target, and I think that's good.

The most important thing is that there are resources like ADT where fans and talent and technical crew and who the fuck ever can come together and discuss what they like about what's happening in the adult industry right now, what they'd change, and why. Discussions like this one help shape the spank fuel of tomorrow.

You ask for Mexican food, and one director may give you burritos, and the next enchiladas, but if enough people say "We want tacos!"...watch for Taco Tails 17: Stuffed Enuff.

And that, friends, is a beautiful thing.

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Lazerus wrote:

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Cal444
Somewhere

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Edited by - wally on 9/25/2003 3:15:18 PM

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This 'opening up' might make for some good piston shots but it also makes it appear that they don't wish to touch each other more than necessary.

I'd like to see things s-l-o-w d-o-w-n, with more body contact, grinding, deep kisses, whispering, dirty talk and eye contact. Female orgasms, instead of the constant caterwauling. And would it kill the guy to crack a smile once in awhile.

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I also detect from the interviews and behind the scenes stuff that the movie makers have considerable contempt for the girls, regarding them as stupid whores. An attitude that just doesn't get my wood stirring. Their filmaking sure reflects that attitude.

I agree with those who name Joey Silvera as an exception. He seems to try and fall in love with the girls he shoots, at least for the length of the scene, and tries to get the viewer to do the same. Some "blissful rUpture" sometimes occurs. At least the girls don't look and act like robots.

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Who's funny? Tony Tedeschi's turkey-neck ballsack is sure funny (hee hee, just had a visual and yep -still funny!), but is *he* funny? Ron Jeremy used to have a reputation for being funny, but NOT DURING SCENES! WHY NOT??

I've seen girls who you can just tell would be LOADS of fun if you let 'em, but some asshole gets in there and starts calling her names and smacking her around and my dick goes limp. Now, if I'm in the mood for that, that's OK. But we're talking lasting psychological damage if I don't get some BREVITY AND WIT with my gonzo, and soon!

I may just have to make my own porn. I don't get embarassed, and I'll damn sure TRY to make you laugh and make my talent COME (while laughing)!!

Oh yeah, legal issues, distributors, hassles, money, the whole "married" thing...

<SIGH>

We'll just have to be satisfied with Tony's funny nutsack getting all the laughs. We could do like the Star Wars thumb puppets, only it'd be his balls with faces painted on them, and ...

Um, enough of that. Back under my rock.

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T.C.

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Dumblonde wrote:

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The standard five or sex scene porn films prior to 1990 often had a lot of sex too. I think some even came close to wall to wallers (like the Wet Video titles in the mid 80s). And some pre Buttman 80's movies were long too. For instance, Caught from Behind 4 ran a full two hours and had a lot of girls and scenes.

Today, the meaning of gonzo has been twisted into any movie that is wall to wall without a plot.

-- Snowman

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How do you know I'm not the next big thing? Huh?? HUH??? Do ya?? (DOH! -- because I'm not married to a swinger like our dear Selena and it just ain't gonna happen...oh, yeah)

Anybody notice ol' "ReasonableMan" is l-o-o-o-n-g gone? Why do I waste my time with the likes of that? I try to be magnamim..magman...eeba-deep...forthright and it gets me nothin' but grief. Nothin'. I'm going back to being a smartass thread railroader. JUST KIDDING. I kid, it's the booze talking. (PMS, PTSD, whatever)

Surely that wasn't his whole wad? As TonyC would say: "I only pull out when I feel like I've got something to show off."

And now, I have exhausted anything constructive I had to say, which was nothing, because I am exhausted. The 7th graders football game tonight went into QUADRUPLE OVERTIME (but we won!). Go, Bucs!

G'night, mates! ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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I was referring to the technical aspects of the movies, such as camera angles, etc..., but was mostly concerned with how gonzo films have become too "by the book", that I've lost all interest in the large majority of them. I don't pretend to have the answer as to how to liven things up again, but I just can't get up for these movies the way I used to.

The typical gonzo DVD will have 4-6 scenes, each beginning with a nice intro of the participants, and proceeding into the main event. For a genre that wanted to bring us "reality", by omitting plots and the like, it's strange that it's become just as predictable as anything else.

I never wanted to namedrop, I don't want to offend other people's views on what is good or bad porn, but through the years, I've found Clark and Silvera to be the only directors I was exposed to who could consistently surprise me. Clark may be more of a biased choice, as his particular fetishes coincide with mine, yet I still believe he puts out some awfully interesting stuff.

To me, what is hugely popular now in this genre is poorly done. Technically, the quality is excellent, but I feel it has that dreaded clinical emotion behind it. Also, due to how mechanical the filming is, it makes me feel as though any idiot could grab the camera and film that particular scene. I get the idea that the director doesn't care about his work, which I can't feel in Silvera movies. In his flicks, I have the distinct impression he loves what he does, and films accordingly. He doesn't go by what he "should" show...

Mmmm, it's hard to articulate, but I just really feel the whole gonzo concept has to change. What's going on right now has been done to death, and I can't wait until cal's "next generation" comes in, I'll be there to see it.

Hmmm... one thing to say is that many of the directors build their name off the acts and girls shown in their movies. Very few build their name off their product itself.

I've said many times: "Euro Hardball, gotta get it, it's Clark", without even looking at the stars.

Other times: "Good, Taylor Rain will do a gangbang. Gotta pick it up."

Hmmm... it's hard to explain.

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Hey, everybody...Guy Capo here.

Do yourslef a favor...Take the thirty bucks you were going to put into your next porno purchase and buy AMERICAN GUNK. Selena Silver, reviewer for AdultDVDTalk, gave it the first 5 star rating she's ever handed out. Gene Ross, the Old Man who has seen and reported on it all from the early days, says in his stellar review of the film:

"Besides all the obvious glad-handing Capo's project so richly deserves, is perhaps the trite observation that of all the gonzo movies to enter the adult market since the adoption of the term [my idea, by the way,] Capo's is what gonzo was originally supposed to have been- a free-wheeling video magazine-style exercise executed with blase whimsy. Within this style and context, Capo bobs and weaves with visual audacity and dervish editing."

It's a one-of-a-kind project, my fellow pronophiles, and viewing it will put a screeching halt to this thread, as it negates, deviates, and navigates through all of your questions and comments in this string of messages. I don't care who you talk to, or what you heard about Company XYZ's new release, or what other producers say they are doing to create a new style of porn. American Gunk is everything you need and want out of well-rounded hardcore adult entertainment. Read the reviews for yourself...check out the trailer at evolutionerotica.com...then buy the two-disc DVD for yourself and see why the project is receiving such high accolades from everyone, including my boss, Tom Byron. And if Tommy likes it...c'mon...How could you go wrong!?

- graciously,
guy capo

"FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS ABSOLUTE"

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Does it play as a quasi-MTV videoish/ADD editing type movie, a la early Rob Black?

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Does it play as a quasi-MTV videoish/ADD editing type movie, a la early Rob Black?

As a matter of fact, Reasonable, I think I could agree with that description. I'm not a big fan of the 3 minute steady shot, or the flowing camera sweeps that record every "real" moment during sex. This project is definitely not for everyone in that regard. But I feel such an approach has it's fair share of advantages. Most people fast froward through a lot of a porn films because a single shot or angle only remains interesting for so long. I like to cut around a lot so that the viewer feels like fast forwarding would cause them to miss something...which they probably would. Also, I like it when the music drives the scene as much as the sex does. The marriage of sex and music was a match made in heaven, and when done properly, you can really make an impact with a scene that you would not have achieved without deliberate, synchronized editing. I have turned off many-a porn flick because the music sucked or was dropped in after the sex scene had already been cut, ruining any consistancy between the visual cuts and the pace of the soundtrack.

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Me, I prefer gonzo, because I get to watch more sex acts for my money. All I need is new faces and wall-to-wall sex. I do want some progress in more daring acts like more DAP, more DPP, first real triple anal etc, but even more important to make gonzo thrilling again are good phantasy settings (not stories, just a thrilling setting), less formulaic positions, better presentation of the girls (cloths, stockings, make-up, body-art etc).

If I buy 2:20 hour of porn-dvd, I wanna be able to count on 1:20 h of penetration at least. Gonzo gives me that and I praise it for that.

Good luck in finging cheap&willin' new ZT-gonzo-girls in Prague, Quaze!!!

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