Eroticism is out there, but it's tough to find, and when you do find it, it's mixed in with a bunch of circus acts.

The problem is that the market is so big, it's nearly impossible to sift through everything to find what you want. That's where a forum like ADT really makes a difference. You can find like-minded people that share your tastes, and they can recommend product that you might have overlooked on your own.

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However, is it now becoming the standard and thus as boring as every fucking time missionary... in my opinion... yes. I think directors are slowly trying to venture out... see what else they can do. Gonzo wouldn't have happened if people didn't get tired of the same old features dealing with taboo subjects. There will be the next thing. It's happening. I don't think it's going to be space ships up a girl's ass. It will probably be like fashion... a mixing of the decades to create a whole new look. Personally, I love the intimacy of gonzo, but am discovering the mind fuck much more interesting than the circus act. I think the combination of those two will be seen much more. I see the emphasis already on "chemistry" in gonzo.

I think there's good things to come.

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I think you know we have you on our "preferred directors" list. We find directors who "have to talk" and get "handsy" very distracting and are slowly eliminating them from our list of "preferreds". We love "mind fuck" as you term it. Mind fuck is what we're looking for and is what's missing from most porn today. If somebody figure out how to deliver it in the gonzo format we will have died and gone to heaven. Let's face it, features today are too expensive and too goofy for the market out there. Women will be an increasing part of the porn audience as they have become part of everything else. Their demands will change the market and if I were a female director I would be trying to appeal to the 21st century audience, not copying the 40-50 year old directors who rule the industry today.

Thanks for your response and keep doing good work ... fuck our minds.

dicknjane

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yes, I think we do see very eye to eye.

I would say, there's always something to learn from "the masters." Though, at the end of the day, you have to make it your own. This site helps me a lot to really listen to what the current thoughts are and try to deduce where they're going... and in the end, where I want to go. I have really discovered that that "mind fuck" is what turns me on the most at the moment. I want to really work on that more and more. But, if it weren't for gonzos, I would not have started to think about myself as a character in the movies... it ends up becoming role playing for me, and I have discovered I really like role-playing. And... that gonzo camera is just so much more intimate than the old feature ways. It's something to be embraced, in my opinion. There are new things that can be done with this. I'm just working to figure it out myself. And in talking with several other gonzo directors, I think they're working on this sort of thing as well. Have you checked out Mr. Pete's stuff? I would recommend this to you, based on what you've said. And I would love to know what Jane thinks of Mr. Pete. For me... I love the way he fucks.

Really, thanks for your support. I hope I don't let you down.
Kat

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I just read in cavr.com and realized they have choking button choking policy( and reduce ratings for movies with choking)

Obviously this has been a down pointlink

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Women are taking on different roles in the world today and so are we men. Porn men are very backward and trying to hold on to Neandrethal views of man-woman relationships. These will not keep growing in the world as we know it today, but the porn men we know now will discover the changing landscape late in the evolution. We can demand and expect change. We have a lot of guys and all of the women porn fans on our side. We have THE POWER in the 21st century. We are the new frontier ..... mind sex for the 21st century is in.

dicknjane

Edited by - dicknjane on 2/16/2006 6:02:17 PM

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As technological advancements necessitated change and legal battles won took the industry out of the black market and away from the mafia's control in New York and out of theaters and into homes, the product of American pornography changed dramatically. Talented filmmakers such as John Leslie, realizing that all of his creative effort put into features was simply not worth it, capitulated to the demands of the market. Likewise with Alex De Renzy and his early 90s name change to Rex Borsky and switch to producing assembly line porn for Rosebud. At that time, it was kind of like why put all of this effort into it when Marc Carriere is out there producing his god-awful films and making just as much money?

So, the market dictated that pornography does not need storylines in the traditional sense. However, the popular replacement, and a genre that was probably extremely intriguing to directors and performers who had been in the industry for quite some time, actually had a storyline by its very nature. Obviously, I am referring to gonzo. Remember, when the Buttman films were coming out the consumers were left to guess whether it was all preo-orchestrated or if this was reality porn. Of course, opposite gonzo was also the growing all-sex market. This was still a transition as opposed to an overnight sensation. For instance, the Rex Borsky tapes I've seen were almost all-sex, but each scene had the slightest bit of set-up to make it a vignette. Now, we don't even get that. The fantasy is no longer situational. Instead, the fantasy is primarily one of vicariously living through the peformers, most often the male who gets to fuck without a condom, do a hot girl up the ass, and then cum on her face. The act of vouyerism is secondary.

This is not to say that pornography needs pretense to be erotic. With creative use of lighting and camera and casting of performers who are into each other, scenes in all-sex films can be erotic to me. However, with so much of the product looking exactly the same (ex.: am I watching Jonni Darkko or Tyrone Shuz?) it's hard to find much eroticism in it. Then again, maybe I over-emphasize this aspect. After all, if the people are having fun, like in a Justin Slayer film, it can be pretty erotic. Watch any of the scenes Slayer personally did with Avy Scott to see what I mean.

Now, to finally answer the question, am I getting what I personally want? Not really; I am getting what I want from watching porn from the 80s and early 90s though. Sure, I watch an old Tracey Adams scene and sometimes wish the sex were harder or that she'd take a facial just once or that she'd have a little more enthusiasm. Then I watch an old Christy Canyon or some select Nikki Dial scenes and wish more of the current American girls could have their energy-energy not having to be a checklist of "what circus act do they do?" but just a sense of them being really into the sex.

Like John Waters said in The Other Hollywood , porn does not have to be degrading. The real good porn is when the girl is having just as much fun as the guy. Too often that doesn't appear to be the case. And, for the love of god, sex is not always about male aggression; porn doesn't have to be either.

Edited by - -Kelly- on 2/16/2006 6:39:55 PM

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dicknjane

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I have been trying to get Jane to post her thoughts here and she has many thoughts and women, in general, will change porn going forward. Women will demand movies they can jerk off to just like men demand them today and couples will demand movies they can fuck to. We want both.

Jane thinks Mr. Pete needs to go to the tanning salon like all the porn women do and he needs to go to the gym and put on some muscle. I am Mr. Pete's height and even when I came out of basic training weighed 20 pounds more than he does. We have gotten into arguments about switching vidoes because I think he is ok but he turns her off visually. Now here are Jane's unedited coments about Mr. Pete and other things:
Mr. Pete is probably a nice guy and a gem to work with. However, my main problem with him is he lacks emotion. He has a nice slim body, but, needs to go to the tanning spa.
While I am venting, let me tell you about a recent thread in the forum. A lady was asking directors and actors (male) to consider spending more time touching the woman's pussy. She meant more than the cursory director's touching of the woman. I believe she wanted to see the male actor touch the women and get her interested in giving the male actor a blow job. One the fellows on the forum responded what??? that is so dumb only the woman knows how she likes to be touched and she needs to do that for herself. My retort is he needs a class in flexibility and hopefully a generous dick so he could just go ahead and suck himself off as he probably knows just how he likes it!

I like to give and get and among my friends I am not alone.

Jane

Well, Kat you have awakened the sleeping Jane, God help us all.

dicknjane

Edited by - dicknjane on 2/16/2006 7:09:28 PM

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Personally, I'll never score a movie lower simply because it contains a specific act. Each and every act, in each and every scene, must be taken within the stricts confines of its context.

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I have seen this choking thing in a some scenes of of gonzo and found it simply ridiculous. And It was like just do it, because it's a fetish for somebody. Laying a hand over ones neck isn't really choking but doing it until she turns beet red and her eyes start to plop out is way too far. So where to draw the line?

I know there is this breath play in BDSM and I'm personally pretty afraid of it. (There is a point at everybody's neck where pressing can cause cardiac arrest and death)

In my opinion watersports and fisting are harmless in comparison to choking, but the first two are seen as abnormal acts, while choking is not seen as something in that direction.

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My retail experience in porn lead me to believe that the softcore/sensual consumers didn't spend nearly as much as the raincoaters.

They would always complain about the lack of variety and choice and how much porno sucks. When I would point them to easier-girlfriend friendly porn like Shane's World, Justin Slayer, Jack's, some New Sensations and Jules Jordan flicks they would glance over it and maybe rent 1 or 2.

The hardcore consumer on the other hand would search around the store 3 times and purchase and/or rent a load of movies. There seemed to be a correlation between how much porn they watched and the type of porn they watch. It's not like the producers of modern pornography have not figured this out already. The Risque Porno is here to stay, and it will continue to make boat loads of money.

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As to the original question -Are you getting more of what you want to see from the porn you are watching as time goes on??

I don't think that for me it's so much related to a time continuum more that I've gotten a bit better at doing the big sifting process of which Pagoda speaks across genres and erea, so that by the time I've found a few films or scenes that I do like, I enjoy them well enough.

More, bigger, harder doesn't always equate to eroticism (although it can - I sometimes find eroticism in unexpected places in the simplest of scenes. There's a scene in a recent DVD I watched that has the most simple of set ups - but what was important to me was that before the sex began the set up and the banter in the set up allowed us to see both the man and woman as equals in the game, so by the time they start with some reasonably subtle powerplay, there's some humour in it which I find way more sexy than aggression. Vigorous, energetic, "rough" sex doesn't have to be about aggression, speaking just for me, submission and dominance is not about aggression, ever.

I'm not sure if porn is like the circus or pantomime. You know how in pantomime all the action is very obvious? Very spelt out, slapstick, big and exaggerated so the audience way up the back can see and understand what's going on - like we're all a bunch of simpletons or children at the very least - that's how lots of porn comes across for me.

..."Watch as faces turn blue from a lack of oxygen in this throat fucking masterpiece.Each whore is brutally thoat fucked for your viewing pleasure."

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But one of the things that got me to stop watching porn was the lack of satisfaction. Hey, you got a gorgeous girl doing anal, wow, then the girl does ass to mouth and it's WOW. Then she does double anal, and it's like, "holy shit" I'm in love. Then you see a new scene and she doesn't even take it in the ass, and you suddenly lose interest in the girl.

I kept getting blown away with every new release I bought, borrowed, and reviewed, then it became, wow, another chick is getting it up the ass.

I got burnt out on seeing starlets pushing themselves further to capture people like myself's attention.

I would love to see a simple one on one scene, minus the circus stunts, with real hard fucking. No gimmicks, just good looking, nasty, raw and unscripted fucking.

- -B -I -G -m -i -k -e, here and there, over and out! - -

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Dicknjane,

Jane... I love your thoughts! You should write on here more!!!! Funny... I'll tell Pete about the tan thing. Well, I guess I see that practically every time... the girl really wants to fuck him. You mentioned touching the pussy. My thing is kissing. And Pete goes for it. He gets the girl to WANT TO kiss him. And of course, he does an awful lot of finger fucking the girl... ultimately making her squirt pretty much every time. When he does a scene that girl (girls) in the scene becomes all that matter to him at that moment. Well, thank goodness not everyone likes the exact same someone or something. Hey... so... who would be your favorite male performers, Jane?

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One-on-one...
Vaginal fucking...
Blowjobs...
An occasional B/B/G or G/G/B is OK.
And I love facials.

I am sooo tired of circus acts and degrading treatment.
Porn works best when everybody is having a good time :)

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Duh!

too many clowns cramming into the tiny.......car.

decadent crumbling empire

-1 Barnum & Bailey

You know how Egg Nog gets trotted out only for the holidays? I'd prefer if porn got circussy only for Easter. And then once more in the month of July. Maybe another short explosion of zany porn right around Thanksgiving.... Then, for the love of crap, we could try to focus on QUALITY for the rest of the year.

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When what we deem as being quality starts selling better than assembly line/circus act porn at a significant rate then maybe the industry-wide focus will shift toward quality. Until then, what's the incentive? That was why I pointed out the John Leslie and Alex De Renzy examples. Plus, the prevailing industry logic we are hearing now is that quantity is the path to profitability. Build up your catalogue anyway you can and that's when you'll start making the money.

Quality is, of course, subjective. Sometimes I fear that I come off as being delusional with my references to vintage porn. After all, I have seen enough late 80s and early 90s films to know that a whole lot of it was shit too (from a lighting and sound standpoint, we might sometimes forget how good we have it now, and does anyone really miss the extensive audio and video looping?) and at times no less assembly line than the circus act films being made today. However, that was exactly why the industry needed John Stagliano to proverbially turn the camera around and become Buttman. The feature had become stale. However, gonzo too became stale over time. Now, all-sex is stale to the point of having desensitized its consumer to the once enticing anal or DP so it has to look for new circus acts to crank out, often packaging it in Porn for Dummies titles or even worse those dripping with misogyny. The feature, of course, still gets made, and I for one do somewhat enjoy some of the ones made by Cash Markman for Hustler.

What is interesting to me from a business and trends standpoint is the apparent surge in popularity of classics new to DVD as of late. Is this the industry's response to the apathy of the vocal minority? Why would this have happened if there wasn't a large demand? And if there is a demand, is it mere nostalgia or is the nostalgia a reflection of disenchantment with current pornography?

So, I carry on like a broken record at ADT about it, and I use my money to support the kind of porn I like. Of course, as has been pointed out the market is so large that I have plenty of choices. I have an eye on the future work of Tristan Taormino and Kat Slater, I look for new scenes on assparade.com, and I'm always curious about a newly discovered vintage release. Every once and a while an all-sex title does come along that really does it for me, with Justin Slayer's Big Booty White Girls 3 the most recent example (Macy Lane and Naomi are amazing in it).

Edited by - -Kelly- on 2/17/2006 3:16:30 AM

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Personally I'm fairly diverse in the kinds of porn that I can enjoy, and I think porn should certainly contain sex acts that you would not practice in your own bedroom on an every night basis. And I even suspect Kat is right when she says that many women tend to enjoy being the submissive. But the near-religious adoration of the Dick and the Cum that goes on in porn really seems to be there only to stroke the male viewer´s ego. Now, I can enjoy watching a good facial, but when cum is constantly treated like it's nectar from the gods, it just becomes silly.

This being said, I'm still with Pagoda in thinking that virtually no act can be ruled out in advance, the context can make them hot. But the context rarely makes thing like ATMs or rough deep-throating or massive facials hot, instead in most porn it feels like one is watching people go through a check-list (oh, we've being doing anal for three minutes now, time for an ATM). What context can do is to make even extreme sex acts believable. And then they really can be hot. The problem is just that the market seems largely to be driven by fetishes and many porn reviews are essentially about making checks on the list to see if all the requisite acts are there.

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This is casting couch porn of our era, and if you watch 50 videos by 50 different companies (and can stay awake), you will see this precise scenario played out in 45 of them.

Incidentally, I think the biggest development in porn over the last few years has been the rise of the producer/director/stud--where one guy fills all three roles in his productions. With the old-timers like Leslie, Stagliano, and Silvera, this seemed like a good thing, but with the younger group of guys, I think it has mostly been disastrous for the industry. It results in the type of stuff I described above, where someone is essentially filming his vicarious lifestyle, pimping and fucking teenage models and selling his home videos to a naive and desperate audience of male strokers, many of whom have never had an satisfying sexual relationship in their adult lives. I think where producer, director, and talent are all separate entities, one was likely to see a different kind of product, a certain objectivity towards that product, and a broader set of fantasy scenarios.

Edited by - lazerus on 2/17/2006 6:26:18 AM

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As I loaded "Pretty Peaches 3: The Quest" (Alex DeRenzy 1989) in the queue this morning and looked at the review comments below I thought of our "quest" here. It just doesn't make sense to me that porn today can't have hot sex scenes. It does seem to be more about going through a bunch of positions, ATM's, and multiple penetrations of every body hole than about getting porn stars to fuck the shit out each other and really enjoy doing it. It's so mechanical and contrived its hard for it to be "erotic".

Edited by - dicknjane on 2/17/2006 10:30:20 AM

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I don't think there are many members here or even participating in this thread who are looking for the "softcore" porn. If I asked you what you would do to make porn scenes hotter for you and include hard/rough sex my guess is you might get agreement from everybody here that that's what they want too??? Couldn't that be done without adding to the cost and without driving away today's hardcore porn consumers .... help me here what am I missing???

dicknjane

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Do we actually know what is selling?
What lines actually move the most product?

Last time I knew, stuff from Vivid, Jenna, Wicked (i.e. tame by our perv standards) outsells "circus act" stuff by a HUGE margin!
These products sit side-by-side in the stroke shops.
Is Max outselling Vivid now and nobody told me?

When everybody is making one flavor product, of course they think it is outselling everything else! It is the classic tail wagging the dog.
It is just like when the supermarket goes from stocking 40 varities of Campbells soup to 15 while still filling the same shelf space. Half of what they stock is some variation of "chicken soup." So, they decide that chicken soup is what the public wants, and even cite increased sales of chicken soup as "proof."
In reality, they are selling more chicken soup because:
(1) It's all they're stocking on the shelves
(2) Some bean-counter decided they needed fewer skews in the system
(3) The supermarket's buyer is able to make 1-1/2 cents (.015) more profit per can by buying fewer varieties in bulk

Well, I'm sick of chicken soup.
I now purchase less soup than I did before because I have difficulty finding what I like/want.
The supermarket continues to offer fewer and fewer soup choices because there "numbers" show the public really only wants chicken soup.
Sound familiar?

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That is what I'm looking for, and I'm sure what all of us participating in this thread are looking for. Real sex, like Justin Slayer and Macy Lane in BigBootyWhiteGirls3. A sex romp that runs all around the house. No tempo, no gimmicks. Passionate kissing, touching and fondling. They even throw in a passionate anal spooning as the finish. Another scene I can think of off the top of my head is with the preverbial sex machine Julian and Daisy. I'm not exactly sure which movie it was from (I had rented it a while ago and dubbed it on my harddrive) but this is one of my favourite scenes ever.

No gags, no postering for the camera, I'll let the pictures do the talking.

Click here

Now to answer your question. Im not exactly sure if you can satisfy both the hardcore viewers and the ones looking for more romantic/real sex. There are companies like Evil Angel and 3rd Degree that try to satisfy both and have done it successfully but they are the exception. My understanding is that the Hardcore consumers want to see something that is way different than the norm. So for them to even be watching something that married couples and more tame people enjoy does not satisfy them. They demand their double anals and peegags.

Edited by - payday on 2/17/2006 3:30:28 PM

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I was actually watching that scene last night while writing my last post in this thread.

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Cal444
Somewhere thinkin
high flyers elevate

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