I'm open. But it took a while to get there.

Somehow, even as a teenager I had gotten the idea to never speak up and tell a guy to do anything differently, cuz they were all fragile egos and might instantly go limp and never get it up again if you implied they had been doing 'it' wrong.

I also somehow assumed they had learned how to do it right and if a guy was hammering my clit and it hurt, I thought I was over-sensitive, and I just wondered how long he was gonna keep doing that before he moved on to something else. I wouldn't even speak up if he was laying on my boob and pinching it, or laying on my hair. I would wait about 60 seconds and then casually change position.

I thought I was open and 'out there,' but I wasn't!

Anyway, it's a different story now!!

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Neither of these "personal styles" or "tendencies" is bad in and of itself, but the differences can be maddening for us both and, the more we focus on them, the more they tend to drive each of us into even greater extremes in our respective orientations than we would normally feel (e.g., my feeling even more frustrated by her seeming restraint; her feeling even more threatened by my relative lack thereof). As of late, we are about as polarized in the bedroom as two people who genuinely love each other could possibly be.

It's gotten to the point where she's told me quite plainly that she doesn't want to know about my fantasies because she finds them upsetting and disgusting (although, in reality, they're nothing that most ADTers wouldn't have seen frequently in their everyday, gonzo porn) and she doesn't want to tell me about her fantasies because she's ashamed of them and wishes she didn't have them (God only knows what they are, but I'd love to hear every one of them). Analytical psychotherapy has not helped us with this problem. Analysis has only created a heightened sense for us of the adversarial aspects of our relationship.

I've finally realized that it's unproductive for me either to voice my unsolicited fantasies to her, or to attempt to pry her "disowned" fantasies out of her. So far, both of these strategies have only caused her to retreat farther away from me. So I'm trying something new. I'm neither initiating sex talk of any kind, nor am I attempting to have orgasm-directed sex with her (in fact, I'm discouraging it). Rather, I'm hoping that some magic might occur if we act as if we are virgins and try to re-establish our sexual connection from scratch -- re-learn how to enjoy each other on the simplest, most basic level, through frequent expressions of love and endearments, through constant hugging and free-floating caressing and kissing -- and see if anything develops.

This is a very scary time for me, because I have no idea whether anything of lasting good for our marriage will come out of this experiment. However, we seem to have exhausted the other possibilities.

Wish us luck!

Edited by - Bob on 4/18/2003 3:14:52 AM

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Edited by - Bob on 4/17/2003 9:44:02 PM

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Definitely keep communicating. BUT be sure that 1) it's really worth bringing up, and 2) that when you do, you hear the real message, not that which you'd rather hear.

Take the anal dilemma, for instance. One partner wants to take the plunge; the other does not. Hopeful Ass-lovin' Partner (HAP) explains how to deal with common concerns, such as anal hygiene, lubrication, etc. The presently Non-Ass Partner (NAP) listens; could be apprehension, receptivity, but definitely ambivalence. Rather than push for an all-or-nothing agreement (since nothing may ensue), HAP might embark on some tentative exploration during lovemaking, perhaps by merely fingering around (not in) the area and gauging reaction. Or perhaps HAP might pick out a "Buttman" movie they can watch together. As much as HAP would like it to go further, if NAP's response is decidedly anti-anal, that's probably the way that it's going to stay. Better to focus on things you both can enjoy instead of something that's going to be a big fight.

Fantasies that you really don't want to fulfill in real life I wouldn't bring up IRL at all. What would be the point? For instance, DPs have long been a fantasy of mine, but bringing it up will do nothing other than conjure up thoughts of me being with someone else in the other person's mind. This would only result in acrimony and probably less sex. So I don't. It's just not that important, and anyway, I can still *think* about whatever I want.

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You wrote:

Given my particular situation (because of how badly I've screwed things up by letting my needy inner-child run the show, with his [my] constant and petulant "I want, I want now!" tantrums, instead of being guided in my approach by my more mature adult aspect), I believe that, at least for the time being, the best communication style with my wife regarding "sex" will be simple, non-sexual, physical and verbal communication of my love of and unconditional acceptance of her, regardless of the amount or nature of the sex (if any) that we have together.

Most mistakes have consequences, and I have to accept and deal with the consequences of mine.

Edited by - Bob on 4/18/2003 1:33:40 PM

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After many years of marriage we have certainly arrived at the point were we can be totally open and honest about anything. Egos can be fragile, and some subjects are difficult to tackle without a lot of trepidation. It is very important to respect personal boundaries.

If your partner is very inhibited or repressed, it can be almost impossible for them to accept new things. If you are really committed to them, patience and nurturing will help.

Recently after a very fulfilling romp, my wife said, "Why didn't we do this when we were younger?" We did, but her outlook on her own sexuality has expanded, and she has lost many of the inhibitions she used to have.

Still, there are many things I would like that she doesn't, and things that she wishes were different about me. But we can certainly talk about things without being judgmental or jealous.

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I envy you. You've handled your sexual relationship with your wife much more perceptively and sensitively than and I have with mine, and you're deservedly reaping the rewards.

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SNP.

Edited by - Sir Noel Plum on 4/21/2003 7:29:28 PM

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I appreciate your thoughts and moral support.

Although I may appear to be accepting more blame than I should or to be taking too harsh a view of myself, what I am really trying to do in this thread (and at other times on the ADT message board) is to "journal" about what my part has been in creating the sexual quagmire in which my wife and I are currently stuck and what my part might be in helping to get us out of it. That doesn't mean that I assume all of the responsibility for our situation, it's just that I don't feel I'm in a position to define for her what her part in fixing things should be.

I've spent plenty of time during our marriage telling my wife what I thought she was "doing wrong" and what I thought her problems were (and why), but none of that helped to improve things for us. I'm now trying to stop thinking about things in terms of fault/not-at-fault and blameworthy/blameless. Instead, I'm attempting to focus on how best to create the kind of sexual relationship with my wife that I'd like to have -- in light of both the emotional barriers that she's facing and the personal boundaries that she has. I can't control her; the only person I can control (and "him" only with great difficulty at times) is me.

My wife and I have been married for 14 years and together for 17. She's my best friend and, notwithstanding our sexual difficulties and my ADT rants and ravings about them, I love her deeply and tenaciously. We have grown up together and we have a lot of happy history that binds us to each other.

We also have two young children, a 6-year-old and a 2-year-old. I had an "absent" father, and my biggest goal in life is to be a "present" father for my kids. I want to keep tucking them in at night and I want to keep being there when they wake up in the morning. My wife is a wonderful, loving, giving mother, and the boys both seem to be happy and thriving. And my children provide me with my greatest and deepest joys -- joys that could not be matched by or measured against orgasms (or even degrees of spousal intimacy).

Here's a little example, a poem that my older son wrote yesterday in school and proudly showed me this morning:

with the smell of Spring
the flowers dance,
with the smell of flowers,
the grass sings,
and with the smell of the grass
the trees party,
and on and on it goes

Life doesn't get much better than that.

So I'm not looking for a moral justification to exit my marriage. I'm trying to think practically and effectively about how to save it. My wife is trying too, in the best way she knows how. She doesn't "withhold" sex, she just feels threatened by intimacy at this point in her life. If I asked her to just lie down on the bed, spread her legs, and "put out", she would -- but I can have a much better orgasm than that by masturbating to a hot porn video. What I'm looking for is sexual re-connection and the re-igniting of her passion.

The truth is, she and I are both swimming upstream, totting baggage that is different in nature but equally as heavy. But because I post here and Ms.Bob does not, you only get my side of things; even when, in my posts, I attempt to see things from her perspective, it's still just me who's doing it. She has no voice in this forum other than the one I attribute to her.

So . . . lots of questions, and no easy answers.

Edited by - Bob on 4/24/2003 3:26:32 PM

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It's good that she is trying too, I hadn't appreciated that from your posts. I can also appreciate where your overall priorities lie and I concur that you have things in some sort of reasonable perspective.

My views come from my own experiences which are likely different to yours and to anybody elses. I've always balked at the idea of 'lowest common denominator' sex where both partners do only what they themselves want to do (the logical conclusion of this could be no sex at all for many people) and never been too happy with trying to just strike a happy medium.
In relationships I have been in I've tried to emphasise the common factors in the enjoyment but also, through talking, arrange nights for her and nights for me. I don't believe you can seperate sexual acts into those you enjoy and will do and those you don't and won't - there is also the 'those you don't but will' category. The very idea of doing someone a favour is to do something for them where there is little in it for you (other than enjoying their happiness or fulfilment); I have never had a problem with giving my girlfriends special nights but I have always expected the same in return (not on a petty tit-for-tat basis but on a general level).

As I say, maybe for you some of these rivers are too wide to bridge in this manner but I still think it is helpful to be minded of not just what she enjoys but also what she is prepared to do as a favour to you, and what she may be prepared to do as a favour to you in the future.

Take care Bob,
SNP.

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I'm new here but I've noticed the posts regarding the situation between you and your wife. Is couples counseling an option for the two of you? Maybe I didn't read closely enough and you have previously indicated that was a "no go".

Anyway, I can see that you love her very much and your kids too (that poem was very touching). My thoughts and prayers go out to you as you work through the issues. I've been there myself and, unfortunately, in my situation it ended in a split. I hope you can work it out with her!

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I appreciate your point of view -- but I do believe, as you suggested, that "these rivers are too wide to bridge in this manner" at present . So I'm giving this slower, tamer approach a chance. Clearly, there are no guarantees that things will turn out the way I'd most like, but no other idea has worked out yet either and our marital relationship seems to have improved since I started off in this new direction. I'm reminded of these classic Rolling Stones' lyrics: "You can't always get want you want . . . but if you try sometime, you just might find [that] you get what you need."

Strokin Man,

Thanks for you thoughts and prayers.

My wife and I are in couples' counseling and have been for over four years. Although this therapy has helped each of us individually in many ways, it has often seemed to have exacerbated our polarization as a couple . So now we are trying to shift gears in our therapy from an analytical approach (which suits me fine but which my wife is understandably tired of) to a more practical, behavior-oriented, problem-solving approach.

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