Anyone on these boards have any qualms about the 'real world' exploitation of women and children? I'm too lazy to go search the figures, but if I recall correctly, the U.N. estimates that around 250,000 women and children are "traffic"-ed into Europe per annum to work in the sex trade. Inevitably, some will end up in the porn industry.
I'm a little bit queasy about how these issues are dealt with on these boards. There's a current thread in which a poster details how he bought sexual services for $2.00. There's very little debate about the ethics of this, beyond the fact that if we accept capitalism, we have to accept events such as this. The thread then goes on to discuss how there are many East European women just lining up to sell themselves in order to "make it big in the West".
I don't know about anyone else, but I do sometimes read the press (and take it with a pinch of salt, obviously). But as I understand it, the "sex trade" works like this :
Criminal gangs target economically deprived cities/towns/villages, recruiting young women who want to "make it big in the West", offering jobs in department stores, fashion industry etc. They're promised free accomodation and employment. This, of course, is a scam and when the women eventually reach their destination there is no work for them beyond selling their bodies. Without independent means of returning to their homes, few choices remain. Even those that eventually save enough funds to go home feel they cannot, too ashamed at what they've had to do to survive.
The melodrama ... Anyhow, I'm not interested in supporting that industry. It's repellant.
But not here, apparently. It's just accepted as part of the game. Personally, I would like the discussion of prostitution issues/how "cheap" women are, especially with regards to the day-to-day situation in the ex-Eastern Bloc, banished from these boards. I don't feel this is censorship - if people wanna discuss these matters they can do it away from ADT. I'm really surprised this hasn't been debated before, especially given the large female readership. Is there no empathy at all? Does anything go as long as the mighty American dollar is exchanged?
If Barbie from Ohio wants to do porn, she can choose to do so. If it's money she needs, there are other options open to her. This is simply not the case in other parts of the world. I don't think it cuts the ice to say these women may earn a month's wages for one scene. I'm more concerned with what's going on where sex can be bought for $2.00. Consent isn't worth a damn if it's only given in exchange for food for yourself or your child.
It's entirely possible to have a porn industry built on respect and fairness. It would be no less "hot". If anything, it would be better because it wouldn't be populated by people who didn't want to be there.
I'm not particularly interested in debating this. I posted mainly to flag it to the mods/owners. If you actively engage in the misery of your fellow human beings, I wouldn't be interested in talking with you anyhow.
Yours hypocritically
M70.
[Link]
shameless Deactivated User
Moscow 1313 Posts 1/03
Posted - Sep 26 2003 : 9:32AM
If you read this posters posts carefully, you can clearly see how much, he really does care for the girls wellbeing and how many ethic questions he has. Just type <shameless> into the search-function first, please!
The fact that it was possible to buy sexual favors for that small amount of money was included by me also only to highlight my moral dilemma.
Moral dilemma why? - Because we (Alexis and me) are not gangsters:
We DONT tell our girls they will get usual jobs in West, we recruit them clearly for porn. We even dont collaborate with girls not willing to do anal. ALL of them KNOW that they are supposed to stage sex acts for a film crew going well byond pussy-only. In this case none of them can even think of getting a <normal> job as a waitress, babysitter etc in West.
If you want porn not dwelling on uneven wealth-distribution in World, all porn girls have to live in well-to-be US-households, Norway, Switzerland, Luxemburg, Japan and very few other places.
Just one last note: Sex trade - as you discribe it - is a crime. I met a Georgian girl in Kiev trapped in this. And I seriousely consider buying her out. But by doing so, she might feel dependant on me. This are questions I consider - along with questions how much I can sell DAP to West for, true. But care for girls will always come first in my (future) business.
Wise up and read my posts first, before you call for the police, please!
(Sometimes I get the feeling, you Americans are naive little children, living in dream world not exposed to harsh life of other planets. Sorry for that remark, but I had to say it).
Good discussion here. I too often wonder just how much coercion the porn industry includes. Not really with regards to the big names in the industry, but with the internet amateur startups and such. It can become all too easy for the industry to use the excuse that "the girl knew what she was getting into" without asking the "why is she getting into it."
Please do not take this as a rebuttal to Shameless, rather I think I'm expanding on his position. Many cultures weigh actions (especially perceived criminal actions) very heavily on the "motive" so to speak. Example: the difference between cold blooded murder and killing in self defense, same act with two different motives have two very different outcomes.
This is where I think things get vague. Is she saying yes to a sex act because she likes the act and likes getting paid for it, or because she has to eat? Each situation is different and we probably won't ever have a good idea of how much really goes on behind those doors.
As for Shameless's comment
(Sometimes I get the feeling, you Americans are naive little children, living in dream world not exposed to harsh life of other planets. Sorry for that remark, but I had to say it).
As an American I agree to much of the principal, however, I think it should be thought of as (for example) a war movie. While one understands the loss of life and has emotions about it, we will never truly realize what it was like to be there. Same goes for world events. The majority of Americans are not naive to what goes on, we are just unable to fully realize/empathize because we have not lived it and don't know what it feels like.
Heh, promoting world understanding through porn. If only politicians watched more of it maybe the world would be a better place.
You don't have to go as far as Eastern Europe to find people doing dirty, dangerous, and/or dehumanizing jobs. Even here in "dream world" that America truly is, there are plenty of people who wake up every morning to another day of long hours and low wages at a job that no one with any other option would ever choose to do. Are the men and women working on the line at a poultry processing plant there by choice? If your answer is yes, then you've got very different ideas about choice than I do.
In that light, any moral question about "discount Ukrainian DAP" are beyond naive, it's a non sequitur. Yet as Shameless own post show, such questions are inescapable. His posts show someone desperately trolling for someone to give him permission to do something that his fundamental moral fiber (as corrupted as it might be from living in "the real world") tells him is wrong.
Now perhaps his moral fiber is rooted in tired old ideas about what women should and shouldn't do. He might be okay with some Gypsy street urchin getting video taped taking two big black dicks up her ass for the equivalent of a month's wages, but how about his sister doing it just because she likes it? How about his grown daughter? Please feel free to answer for yourself Shameless, but I'm going to guess that your mind recoils at the idea of your daughter appearing in Ukrainian DAP Sluts 16.
Now if I'm right, and Shameless recoils at this, it might (in part) be because he'd recoil at the idea of his daughter taking two dicks up her ass in privacy of her own bedroom with men that she loves. If that's the case, I understand. I'm also a father, and it's part of the human conditions for even liberal-minded fathers, in their role as protector, to have an uneasy relationship with the daughter's sexuality. No one wants to see their children get hurt, and sex if nothing if not dangerous. But if his answer is "No, not my daughter. Not for a month's wages, not for a year's wages," then he recognizes that as we try to navigate our way through this world, the brutal realities of the market place are only part of the equation.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to lace up my Nikes and go for a run.
Before we get too wildly off topic I would like to pose a question to industry insiders that may be enlightening to the rest of us.
To the actors/actresses: Was your very first sex act on camera/film initiated by you or someone else? and Did you accept for the money, enjoyment, both?
To the photographers/filmmakers: Do you ever ask in the initial meeting/interview why a person is taking the job?
I am interested to see as many viewpoints as possible.
Just to clarify, miscreant70 has nothing to do with cobalt60. m70 <> c60
Thank you.
The balance of this post has been removed because, like Tony says further down....I was hungry and my judgement was impaired.
I can't believe I was so sanctimonious and self-righteous. Tony: "having a choice, making a choice, and living with a choice" was eye-opening. Thank you. I will be watching Marie & Jack tonight. Thank you for that, too. I don't care what everyone else says about you , you're OK in my book.
People get naked in front of the camera for a variety of reasons: some noble, some base; some reasonable, some misguided. In nearly 20 years of shooting pussy, I've probably heard them all.
I first began shooting sexually explicit photography as an art student nearly twenty years ago. As a young, ambitious artist, eager for attention, sexually explicit imagery offered me a short cut, which I more than willingly exploited. I had two favorite tactics.
The first was to photograph an imitation of a famous female nude, only I would alter the pose or grooming so that the woman's twat was plainly visible. I delighted in how this would make people squirm. They'd try to talk about the post-modern meaning of a photographer "replicating" Olympia, but all the while I could see their eye furtively darting to her cunt lips.
The second was to imitate Hustler style photographs, only I'd shoot them in B&W with an 8"x10" camera. If you've never seen a woman with her butt in the air, offering her ass and pussy, rendered as only an 8"x10" sheet of PlusX can render it... well let's just say you could her a pin drop when I unveiled such work on crit. day.
As a student I really had nothing to offer my models, other than the opportunity to indulge a naughty fantasy. They weren't going to get paid, they weren't going to get famous. I'm pretty sure most of them got the joke; and even if they didn't they got a print, and that might be enough. I've heard from more than one 35 year old woman how nice it is to have a really nice photo of how hot they were when they were young and naive.
Somewhere in the course of antagonizing my classmates and professors, I realized I had something I wanted to express about sexuality, I just wasn't sure what it was. A few years after graduation I had drifted to New York where I began shooting layouts for girlie magazines. I never asked a model why she was spread legged in front of my camera, but it was easy to tell which ones were there because the needed the money and which ones were there because they needed the attention.
These days I'm lucky enough that I can make sex movies on my own terms. I have *very* specific ideas about who I want to shoot, and I have *very* specific limits on what I will and won't ask people to do on camera (they have nothing to do with holes.) I reject 19 out of 20 couples that I talk to about shooting a scene, but almost never for appearance; it's attitude. If their heads aren't in the right place, if their hearts aren't in the right place, I can't use them.
Your son or your daughter? Which one lives? Which one dies? I'm sure you know the movie and I'm sure you know how it ends. I'm also sure you're sophisticated enough to know the difference between having a choice, making a choice, and living with your choice.
I'm just going to chalk it up to your being hungry. Go have lunch, take a walk; that should get you through the rest of the day. And when you get home tonight watch my film with your wife. It will make you feel better. No really, it will.
My first commercially filmed sex act was initiated by others. I didn't even ask how much I would be paid before I agreed to do it. I accepted because I was astonished that anyone would offer the opportunity to me. I didn't know if I would like it, I wasn't being asked to do anything that I hadn't done before in the privacy of my own sex life, and the money wasn't even an issue. I did it because I had always dreamed of being a pretty woman that men would desire. I got my wish. Getting paid for it was just a terrific bonus.
Great thought-provoking post, miscreant70. Since you brought up the lack of discussion given the female readership, I thought I should put my two cents in, although I'm only beginning to appreciate the problem and grapple with the ethics.
I've been spending less time on the boards for various reasons, and it hasn't helped to read so many posts that focus on the flesh trade aspect so openly and incessantly.
A recent thread on ZT's upcoming Prague shoot began to disturb me when fans kept talking about 'buying cheap anal' or pushing them into offering more money for anal, etc. When you think about how much it must cost to send a crew over there, I sincerely doubt that the motivating factor is to exploit or save a few bucks on talent. I believe that most studios are just reacting to the porn fan's seemingly endless thirst for new faces, and have the best of intentions.
Personally I don't care for the girl's 'just going through the motions' performances, and prefer American, Canadian, or Northern European girls who clearly have more choices in life and seem to enjoy sex more, but that's neither here nor there.
I'm all for capitalism and free choice, but there is something unsettling and not so clear cut about all of this. Other than that, I don't feel qualified to comment further until I can study the issue in some depth.
To me it's fairly simple, I don't give my business to movies and companies which portray situations in which I believe the women are not enjoying themselves. I can defend a movie such as Unnatural Sex 8, which is full of DAP performed by mostly Eastern European women, because I've seen those women elsewhere, I know they can do strong sex with a gleam in their eye, and they looked upon this particular title as a challenge. It wasn't "you must do DAP or else," rather, it was, "Sarah Hoffman, you can fist your own ass, wanna try two cocks at once?" And so she did.
There's cruelty and awful living conditions all around, in the USA, in North America, in the world. There's lots of things to be aware of, and to feel bad about, and to perhaps try to improve, at least to some extent. I'm sure that forced prostitution is widespread, and I'm not happy about that, but it isn't going to stop me from watching people have fun, consensual sex on camera.
I have wondered about even the most famous Eastern Europeans. It's creepy. You just don't know if people are covering it up. More people are being trafficked right now than were during the entire African slaving era in the U.S. (and that lasted for, well, a hell of a long time). The whole "value of human life" thing is suffering a major setback, and politically active women who currently obsess only about securing their right to abortions should change their focus to something more relevant: the status of all women everywhere is in jeopardy if this trend continues/expands.
And I don't care what everyone else says about you, I still think you're an asshole
DarkAngel's comments regarding intent are very estute.
While real movies occasionally take advantage of viewer behind the scenes knowledge ("She did all her own stunts!" or "Based on a true story!), for the most part Hollywood movies try to conjure up an opaque world. What's going on on the screen is what's important, not the motives of the real people behind the screen.
Porn, especially Gonzo porn, has a far different pretense. Everything you see in a porno movie is predicated on the viewer's perception of the talents' off-screen motives for doing the scene, and thread after thread on this board shows, porn viewers are desparately concerned with what "really" happening in the scenes they watch. Some may want to believe that the girl getting fucked every which way really is doing it because she's a cock-crazed cum pig, and some may need to believe that she's a worthless whore doing it to support her drug habit.
But in either case, the effect of the action on the screen is entirely dependent on the viewer's perception of the off-screen backstory. That is an enormous part of the context of all pornography, and the only context for Gonzo. Pornographers might be lazy and selfish, but we're not stupid; talk is cheap and everyone in making pornography (myself included) does their best to talk up whatever backstory fantasy we think will help the audience enjoy our product. Sometimes fantasy and reality are close cousins, sometimes they're not even from the same species.
Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99
Posted - Sep 27 2003 : 12:20PM
I'm well aware of the ethical issues of running a site like this. I grapple with them daily. But if I responded every time someone said something disturbing, well, I'd be spending all day here playing morality police. I don't think I'm in a position to judge.
miscreant70, I think you missed the many posts where people have discussed this issue. The debates are fruitless. Some people like to say they care, but refuse to admit that taking advantage of someone's poverty situation shows they don't care.
shameless, whenever anyone finds your attitude (pay them more so they'll do anal, etc) disturbing you attribute it to being an American. Perhaps you should read your own posts. There are many non-Americans who also take issue with your constant focus on money and buying cheap sex.
Well, this is a weighty topic, and something I have thought about off and on. I must admit that I have some misgivings about watching Euro-porn, because of my concern about the actresses and their economic reasons for doing these films. I realize that every dollar I spend renting one of these titles may help these women survive economically for now and the near future, but it certainly is not enough to set them up for life (and I know that most of the money goes to the producers). I have wondered what real choices the actresses had before they got into doing porn given the social upheaval in Eastern Europe over the past 15 years, and what is available to them when they stop making films. Perhaps some of this goes a ways towards explaining why a lot of the European women appear soulless on film; they are truly just trying to survive difficult times. Actually, last week I was watching a gonzo film made in Hungary, where in the middle of a scene a Ukrainian actress casually asked the director, “Where is my money?”, lest we all forget the mercantile nature of this line of work. So much for fantasy…
As for American women in the porn industry, I know that they have, in general, more economic and educational opportunities than Eastern European women, but that doesn’t mean I have no concerns about them, either. Especially when they are so young (18-22 years old) and because of the demands placed on them by fans and producers. Reading the recent thread about the Taylor Rain gangbang video is one example of this – where fans are screaming for her to do interracial, even when she has already agreed to just about every other act under the sun, and the producer consequently started to put pressure on her, and offer her more money to do something that she had already stated she didn’t want to do. Luckily, reason prevailed and apparently she won’t have to do IR, thanks to enough people posting to leave her alone with her decision.
Which gets us to the semi-vicious cycle that is set up between fans crying out for more and more unusual acts and fresh faces, which leads to producers and directors trying to meet these demands before their competition does, and still the fans don’t always seem satisfied. It’s like everyone is stuck on this merry-go-round, and I don’t see an easy way out of this situation. As for myself, all I want to see in a porn film are intense performances between people who look like they enjoy being on camera. (And even this is not easy to find.)
Getting back to the subject of trading sex for money, even I as an American college-educated woman have been confronted with this dilemma. (To make sense of the rest of my post, you’ll need to read my account of a real job interview, called the Hungarian Lab Director, in the Story Time Forum). Oddly enough, this involved a man from Eastern Europe, but it could easily have been a man from anywhere. Fortunately, I didn’t have to take the job at his company, because I found decent work somewhere else, but I have wondered what I would have done if I had been unemployed for a long time, with no savings or health insurance – would I have taken the position he offered, knowing that he would expect me to have sex with him sooner or later, in exchange for a regular paycheck? I hate to admit this, but I probably would have, just to eat and keep a roof over my head. And I would have cried myself to sleep more than once over this circumstance, if it had come to pass.
If only all porn actresses were like Selena Silver or Jewel D'Nyle, two people who come across as strong personalities who can look out for themselves, and who do their work because they like it; I would feel less guilty over watching porn films.
If wanting to see people be treated fairly is an American trait, then...Thank you . I don't agree and wish that more people of all nationalities thought this way.
If everybody lived their life treating other people as they want to be treated themselves, the world would be a pretty good place for everyone.
Unfortunately, there are always people who want to get ahead and don't care who they screw in order to succeed. That's a shame.
Although a free-market system may be the most reasonable of the alternatives, it's no deity. The freedom to choose gives us each the startling opportunity to help push the world a little closer toward heaven or a little closer to hell.
As a consumer, I can try to "shop ethically", boycotting co.'s/practices I think suck - and being vocal about it. I think I'm in the minority tho' - and it's supply & demand at the end of the day. There is clearly a market for "cheap porn" and cheap sex, as these boards sometimes testify.
We live under modern capitalism. And this is an example of why, as a system, it is flawed. The powerful exploit the weak. Human exploits human.
Anarchist porn anyone?
M.
[Link]
shameless Deactivated User
Moscow 1313 Posts 1/03
Posted - Sep 29 2003 : 10:21AM
It's off topic, but please tell me which film you are talking about. I need to know...
to Steph: I really read my own posts often. I fight a constant inner battle between orthodox upbringing, capitalist reality and my selfchoosen free Shameless-livestyle. I am still not completely convinced about our Porn Agency project. It's because moral problems mainly. Certainly: being just a porn consumer is easier. And please note: I dont mind people questioning my attitude to buy cheap sex. Its also not only American attitude to question that. What I call <American>, though, is idea that everybody shall do everything always because they like it. Its rich surplus-society's approach. In Russia difference is, that money is very scarce for most. Some might choose to sell body to decently survive (not to eat, Russia/Ukraine is not Ethiopa!), some might choose crime, some might passivly linger in village and drink themselfs to death. I prefer beautiful & ambitious girls selling their body...
To Speelie: Thanks for your remarks on Un-natural Sex #8, great film, great sex, great proud East European girls!
To darkangel: No, I dont ask about motivations, but with all our 20+ girls it was clear that they wanted to earn money. Their deeper intimate motivation is not my business.
The movie was "Buttman in Budapest", which was made several years ago, and which I thoroughly enjoyed. The scene I'm talking about was the first, I think; one of the reviews on this site probably gives the name of the actress, I can't remember all their different names. (By the way, there is no response to her question on film.)
In defense of Shameless, I myself have worked over the past 15 years or so with people from Russia, Czechoslovakia, and Romania, and it is hard for us here in the USA to really imagine what life has been (and is now) like for people in these countries, going from the extreme of living in a totalitarian state to the other extreme of capitalistic free-for-all.
I remember reading an article, either in GQ or Esquire in the past year, that was about sex traficking in Eastern Europe. The author, an American guy, went over there and thought it would be sort of a fun topic to write about. He ended up being appalled at what he found (a father trying to sell his daughter for the $300 he needed to settle some debts), and he even considered paying the money and bringing the girl to the US, but found he couldn't easily do that because of immigration issues. It was an interesting read.
IAFD, supporters of beastiality. Just say no. 7564 Posts 11/02
Posted - Sep 29 2003 : 1:32PM
A Ukranian girl in Buttman in Budapest ? Must be Nicolette. Interesting to know, is that Nicolette is leading a casting agency of her own now, bringing some of the best recent Ukranian girls to Budapest.
To add to the moral dilemma. A question: Are only persons who can afford it "free enough" to make choices?
Sir Noel Plum said: "Moving house to gain another 'free' DVD would be a little bit excessive!"
[Link]
shameless Deactivated User
Moscow 1313 Posts 1/03
Posted - Sep 29 2003 : 3:20PM
Walter, do you have a picture of Nicolette? does she have a homepage with her offerings? (interesting career! Thumps up for this girl!)
IAFD, supporters of beastiality. Just say no. 7564 Posts 11/02
Posted - Sep 29 2003 : 3:39PM
Nicolette in action I have been told that Nicolette started the casting agency together with another Ukranian ex pornstar, Julia Tchernei, "the girl who started it all".
Manetho71 said: "I'm not a spectator when I watch porn, like when I watch baseball." (They would kick you out of the stadium, I imagine.)
[Link]
shameless Deactivated User
Moscow 1313 Posts 1/03
Posted - Sep 29 2003 : 4:11PM
Thanks so much, Walter! Nicolette is not really my type, but the more Julia Tchernei is! I always though she was Russian...she is really so hot! And I am so glad for her she has already established herself in Budapest and is helping other Ukrainian girls getting there for a long time.
I bet you have no homepage of this Nicolette&Julia Budapest Agency, no? I really wonder what fees they have...
Good Question. I think everyone makes choices, but extraneous factors weigh heavily on some decisions so we can never truly be "free" to choose what we want. I think the important moral factor would be whether a person has options.
[Link]
shameless Deactivated User
Moscow 1313 Posts 1/03
Posted - Sep 30 2003 : 4:04AM
There is always the option of committing crime. This is one of the reasons why I so much love these hard working girls accepting empreneurship and capitalism.
This morning on the C-Span TV channel, there was an interview with a professor who has studied sex trafficking (where women/girls are tricked/coerced into prostitution) around the world for the past 10 years. You can watch the video of the interview at "www.c-span.org" (requires Real Player); look for Louise Shelley on the video list, or search the video archives for her name. Usually the videos stay posted for 2 weeks.
She had some interesting things to say on the issue - that it is a problem world-wide, but is especially bad in China, Thailand and the republics of the former Soviet Union. Her research has shown that it is mainly economic and govermental upheavels that lead to increases in trafficking. And, surprisingly, the US State Dept. is spending $100 million a year to investigate trafficking, both here and abroad.
The most glaring thing the professor said was that wherever there are large numbers of US soldiers stationed abroad - especially in the Balkans and in Korea - sex trafficking goes on the increase, and that organized crime is the conduit that provides the women to the soldiers. Now there is the concern that in Iraq, the same thing might happen - which won't exactly endear us to the rest of the Muslim world. Apparently the Pentagon is aware of this situation, and they have said they will "look into it" but nothing ever gets done.
This is yet again an example of the State Dept. trying to combat a problem, and the Pentagon doing things that aggravates the same problem. Makes you proud to be an American.
I've got a question for you, just out of curiousity. The women that have signed up for your agency in Kiev, is it the case that they are unemployed, or that the jobs they have now don't pay them enough money to live decently, or are they already involved in the sex industry in some way or another?
I just have a natural interest in that part of the world because 3 of my grandparents were born in Lithuania, near Kaunas, and I have a great-grandfather who served in the Russian Army during Tsarist times.
[Link]
shameless Deactivated User
Moscow 1313 Posts 1/03
Posted - Oct 1 2003 : 8:17AM
Dear Renee, Thanks for your kind words steering away from the selfrightousness I am sometimes confronted with on this board. Our up to now 22 signed girls all come from very different backgrounds. Most actually are students looking for ways to finance their lifes. They might not finish their studies, if they get the chance to work in West, though...Others are from shop-assistants to young state administration workers looking for an additional job (as one job only in Ukraine seldom earns you enough to pay all the bills etc.). Some have worked as prositutes before. Some, likeAlena are working as escort girls still. We also recruited a few girls directly from the street. We certainly will direct more attention to streetwalkers because there are many young and very beautiful girls willing to do the acts the market demands. Also I do like these field-work very much, because I often buy service of streetwalkers in my private Moscow life anyway. As we dont contract girls refusing to do anal, most of our models had at one point contact with the Ukrainian sex industry already. But for some, our job is the first contact with that biz. And I really want to make it a good experience for them...
PS: Kaunas is nice! I have been there once. And you?
Thanks for the answer to my question - what you wrote is close to what I guessed was the situation in the Ukraine.
Do the girls that you have signed up want a long term career in the porn industry, or do they just want to make movies for a short period of time? Or do you even discuss this with them?
P.S. I have never been to Lithuania. My fondest wish is to visit the birthplace of my mother's father, in the little town of Dotnova, near Kaunas. When his family left for the US in 1908, they sold their only milk cow for 150 rubles!
[Link]
shameless Deactivated User
Moscow 1313 Posts 1/03
Posted - Oct 1 2003 : 8:05PM
We discuss all their questions with them openly. Because as I said, I really want them to know what they sign up for and to make that job as good as possible experice for them. Most of them do dream about any kind of career in West, be it porn fine, be it as mainstream actress even better - some even as housewives. Most want to earn big money. When I talk about usual US-rates for certain sex acts filmed in Porn Valley their eyes nearly pop out! Listing to such incredible amounts of money I think most just hope to get there very soon and do just a few scenes there, and than return to Ukraine as rich women. But I make them clear that this is a long and hard way. And being booked in Kiev by Western porn directors might be first step. I usually tell the ambitious ones, that they shall be prepared to work 1-2 years in Ukraine as porn actress first, the ones just urgently needing money, I offer bookings as long as they are healthy, keep fit and available. Most of them (about 2/3 of our girls) think in short terms rather. Personally I think a girls time-window in todays porn is about 1 year. I clearly want to supply the biz with new, young and willing girls. Thus in our advertizements we only look for girls aged 18-21. Actually signing them up, we have no age limit, however. Limit is just market demand. Also if one of our girls gets the chance to stay in biz longer than 1 year and feels like doing so, fine. Of course I do dream of Ukrainian Ginger Lynn, but times are different now. Time frame will rather get even shorter, thus I really advise them to start with best payed acts (DP, DAP) as soon as possible. But most want to earn as much money in as short time as possible anyway.
Edited by - Shameless on 10/2/2003 3:32:55 PM
[Link]
shameless Deactivated User
Moscow 1313 Posts 1/03
Posted - Oct 3 2003 : 7:56AM
Just a side note to original poster: Isnt it interesting that the 3 of the 4 most trafficked nations (women from Bulgaria, Moldova and Romania) hardly ever show up in porn?
Thanks to your answers to my questions; it sounds like you are being honest with your girls. I also appreciate that you don't call them whores or hookers in your posts.
Your comment about Moldava, Romania and Bulgaria - is it because the organized crime element that basically buys the girls will go where the "price" is the lowest, so that is why they go to these countries, rather than Hungary or Poland or the Czech Republic? I suppose it is basic economics that plays a big role even in this activity.
Monkey Power wrote on a previous post: I have wondered about even the most famous Eastern Europeans. It's creepy. You just don't know if people are covering it up. More people are being trafficked right now than were during the entire African slaving era in the U.S. (and that lasted for, well, a hell of a long time). The whole "value of human life" thing is suffering a major setback, and politically active women who currently obsess only about securing their right to abortions should change their focus to something more relevant: the status of all women everywhere is in jeopardy if this trend continues/expands.
Politically active women don't just obsess about abortion rights; they are concerned about a lot of issues. One of the major ones is increasing the number of women in Congress, which is by far the most effective way to have a say on any issue, be it political, economic or social. It is Congress that allocates the money, such as $100 million to the State Dept. that I mentioned in a previous post, to fight human trafficking.
Women's groups can certainly draw attention to the plight of women/girls that become trapped by sex traffickers, but there is a real limit to what such groups can do. It is organized crime that is behind this phenomenon, and it takes governments and law enforcement agencies to do something about it. Even here in the US, we don't call on the National Organization for Women to fight organized crime (even when they run prostitution rings); we expect the FBI to do the work, and Congress to supply them with the funds and resources to do it.
[Link]
shameless Deactivated User
Moscow 1313 Posts 1/03
Posted - Oct 3 2003 : 6:50PM
Yes, true. But Miscreant70 (where is he, anyway?) tries to draw a ling between adult agents (like me) and trafficking criminals. If his thesis was right, the euro-porn market would be flooded by Bulgarian, Rumanian and Moldavian girls.
I really try to be fair with our girls. They are not <whores>, but young ambitious women, giving us men so much pleasure!
I'm glad to see so much intelligent discussion of this highly sensitive topic appear on in this forum. For one thing, the evident concern of the participants belies certain routine assumptions anti-porn types, whether of the religious right or the feminist left, make about those who work in and consume porn.
Obviously, those who despise all forms of sex work and wish to seem it abolished don't have much interest in the subtle complexities of the issues raised here, but they really aren't as simple as the term "human trafficking" would imply.
Clearly, if a woman is drugged or abducted at gunpoint, shipped across international frontiers and made to enagage in sex acts against her will, she is in every sense a victim of slavery who can rightly be said to have been trafficked.
If, on the other hand, she chose to leave an impoverished location with few if any opportunities for economic advancement and elected to use her sexuality as capital in order to better her own situation, she can more correctly be said to have participated in a most ancient of human activities that persists throughout the world, including in the US, today: economic migration.
I believe that certain groups with certain political agendas, including those associated with the current presidential administration, are doing their best to conflate and confuse these very different situations so as to create an atmosphere of hostile suspicion around every sex-worker with a foreign accent who appears in porn or otherwise makes a living by providing sexual services.
While I have no doubt that the sex trade in many parts of the world exploits captive labor that can correctly be described as having been trafficked, I don't think that model applies very accurately to porn, whether made here or in Europe. The level of energy required to enact a half-way convincing sexual encounter on camera virtually excludes any performer working under blatant physical duress. The camera would detect the accompanying distress in an obviously incriminating manner.
In fact, the itinerant porn performers we meet over here could be characterized more realistically as ambitious, determined entrepeneurs who went to a lot of trouble to break into this business and have no intention of leaving until they get what they consider appropriate rewards for their labors.
However, the absence of physical coercion still leaves unanswered charges of other forms of exploitation and manipulation, which become increasingly difficult to rebut as economic choices become more limited. As TonyC points out, people do all kinds of difficult, arduous and even dangerous jobs because those are the jobs they can get.
Certainly, sex work is both better compensated and less grueling then many other forms of physical labor about which no such deep moral soul-searching seems to trouble society at large. I still maintain that most of the sensational claims of harm inflicted in the course of making porn are laid by people who have major issues with the content of the product and really don't care much about the actual working conditions involved. Whether talk of porn-related human trafficking comes from the Bush administration or anti-porn feminist groups, I still see it as mainly a smoke-screen for hostility toward what the industry makes, as opposed to how it's made.
But this conviction leaves unexamined any fundemental questions about late industrial capitalism and the demands it makes on those who wish to succeed on its terms in any field. It's one thing to say that pressures on the supply side have been exaggerated and quite another to pretend that pressures on the demand side have not. No doubt, the explosion of demand for porn has created both new opportunities for advancement and new opportunities workplace abuse.
I don't look on these concerns with a marked sense of personal alarm, but I do see them as having some degree of legitmacy.
