maybe there are companies targetting women with marketing, but few are gearing the actual product to women.

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Personally, I find a lot to like in porn, including porn that's not specifically intended for female audiences. I do think there's plenty of room for improvement, though. The studios have only begun to tap what could be a potentially huge market.

Incidentally, not all guys are opposed to cum reaction shots. There was a little discussion about this not long ago, on a contentious thread that was eventually locked. The opinion seemed pretty well split to me. It's true that some men just want to see the actress and an anonymous cock. But editing issues aside, there are still plenty of guys who appreciate seeing the pleasurable reactions on the man's face and eye contact between the performers, which is something that can definitely and immediately enhance the chemistry of the scene.

Edited by - YogaGrrl on Jul 17 2002

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Hear hear! There’s lots of room for improvement, and the potentially huge market doesn’t just mean the ladies buying and watching porn. Expanded budgets to make the film and increasing the quality (production value) would help out too. Not enough of that.

I was pleasantly surprised to find the Kinsey survey had 17%, but I suspect that it might be even higher because that was just the percentage that responded. Among my friends, several women would like to see some porn once in awhile, but they “wouldn’t be caught dead” walking into a video/dvd store to select one. They send their husbands in instead. If they won’t go into the store, they probably wouldn’t respond to a survey either.

DenverDon

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The 17% does indeed sound encouraging. Hopefully the studios will begin to reflect this, and start catering more to this huge potential market.

You may find this hard to believe too, but I try to look at porn from the perspective of this potential market, or more of a 'typical' female point of view (if indeed there is such a thing!), because I realize only too well that I'm probably not 'typical' in this way. I myself have kinks that might curl your hair, but I try not to let that influence me. I hope I'm making sense here.

You are happy with the status quo, that's great. I am not. I too see much room for improvement, and my comments here and in my reviews are made with this in mind. You're not the first person I've angered with them, but please know that they are never meant personally, only an attempt to try to shake things up a bit in the rut that porn seems to get stuck in a lot. This is my only agenda. What your's is, I'm not sure, but it seems you have some homework to do, at any rate.

DB

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Shake 'em up, and get 'em out of the rut.

Love reading your reviews, they're informative and entertaining.

There's lots of things that can be done, they just need to take some risks.

DenverDon

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"There's lots of things that can be done, they just need to take some risks."

The lack of variety in porn is really my main gripe, when it comes down to it. And unless we complain, there's no reason or incentive for improvement.

We've seen through these forums that they DO listen. Has anyone else noticed that there are fewer guys pulling their own puds to finish scenes? I certainly have

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It's nice to see the woman finish the guy off. Kind of a physical way of saying "I want it" rather than sitting with mouth open while the guy waves it in the air.

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I do enjoy a nice spray shot -- but would like to see it either way - with the lady finishing the job or the guy ... Just kinda sick of the weak shots - especially some of the steroid dudes that are just shooting dust ...

JAG

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Steph wrote:
"Adam & Eve and Wicked don't solely target women."

I didn't say they did. They, along with Vivid and others, market themselves as "couples friendly", which translates to "het men and women." That's why these 2 women know who Jenna Jameson is. I'd guess that consumers of "couples porn" are probably majority men, but I'd also guess that these companies have a higher percentage of women customers than a Filmco or Nymph. But that would be just a guess. Any insiders or webtailers care to share some stats?

Steph wrote:
"Wicked movies feature model looking women getting DP'ed, long blowjob scenes, and other sex acts geared towards male viewers"

So...women don't have fantasies of being with more than one man? Women don't like giving blowjobs? Wicked videos also feature beaucoup cunnilingus, m>f analingus, m>f digitalingus [hey, if you can make up "autopederasty" I can make up "digitalingus"] and lots of m>f kissing. Plus, they choose "hot" guys (ie muscular and well-groomed) to be in their videos.

Steph wrote:
"Many Wicked movies are hardcore porn scenes with plot in between - not what I'd call couples movies."

You threw the word "hardcore" in there as a nice distracting device. Think of this: isn't sex in rl hardcore? I have never equated "softcore" with "couples". "Softcore" to me means "no insertion" or "simulated insertion". "Softcore" means nude model magazines (Playboy, D-Cup) and "Pet of the Year" DVD's and direct-to-video R-rated T and A flicks. I have no stats, but I'd be willing to bet my savings that if we could somehow get a list of the top 100 list of pornos that women have bought since the video revolution, we'd find a lot more hardcore videos (Deep Throat, Behind the Green Door, Dreamquest, Debbie Does Dallas) than softcore (Dreamgirls, Girls Gone Wild, Centerfold Men, Mr Nude Universe).

Steph wrote:
"maybe there are companies targetting women with marketing, but few are gearing the actual product to women."

Porn is a medium for viewing sexual performance. Women can see any kind of sexual performance they'd like in porn with a few keystrokes in iafd's search engine. But looking for Oscar-caliber drama [if that is, in fact, the element you think porn is missing] in porn is like looking for it in a football game or a magic show. It's not designed to be there. [See my Rules for Porn Beginners thread].

The point I keep arriving at is that women's relationship with pornography has less to do with pornography's content than with women's relationships with sex itself and other issues that block women's desire to even try it in the first place (see my Women have been duped thread).

Steph wrote:
"Very few guys are on box covers...unless they're the kind of guys that other guys envy (Rocco, Lex, etc.)"

This is kind of a disingenuous point because 1. many boxcovers have guys on them, but somehow you think they don't count if they're popular? and 2. I would say that guys envy *any* male pornstar.

Steph wrote:
"numbers in the porn world can only be guessed. look at it as a percentage. women are a tiny percentage of the porn viewing public."

I've seen the same numbers as Yogagrrl: 17-25%
I've recently read that 14% of internet adult entertainment (porn and other)is partaken by women. Considering that porn is a multi-billion dollar industry throughout the world, even if only 5 percent of porn consumers were women, that would still mean millions of female consumers.

Edited by - ILMR on Jul 18 2002

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• "...hey, if you can make up 'autopederasty' I can make up 'digitalingus'..."

Um, autopederasty is a word. If you don't trust Blondie's carefully crafted Dicktionary, please try a Google search on that subject. Digitalingus is actually pretty clever, but it would imply licking someone's fingers as a form of sexual gratification, which I don't see a lot of in porn (I'd love to see more).

I'm bringing this up only because you seem to land on Steph pretty hard for her loose interpretation of the word "hardcore." A lot of people other than Steph use the word that way. I think you know what she meant, but if you're going to quibble about semantics, please at least be consistent and use the proper terms yourself.

• "...1. many boxcovers have guys on them, but somehow you think they don't count if they're popular?..."

I just looked at the front covers of every single DVD I've reviewed (all 30). Do you know how many included a photo of a male? Two. One is Dale DaBone, on the cover of the couples' feature Hard Bound. The other is Lexington Steele, on the cover of the gonzo film Lex the Impaler. In both cases, the images of the males are smaller than the images of the females. Yes, I know the back covers often include photos from the set that show males and females together. But that's not the side that's on display in the stores. And not a single one of the spines on my reviewed DVDs shows a male, either.

• "The point I keep arriving at is that women's relationship with pornography has less to do with pornography's content than with women's relationships with sex itself and other issues that block women's desire to even try it in the first place (see my Women have been duped thread)."

See, I think you do have a point, and to me, you seem to be saying that women have issues with their own sexuality which are holding them back from enjoying porn. Now, that is actually an interesting point worth discussing (even though I only partially agree with you). But maybe we could discuss that directly, instead of making sideways remarks about Dumblonde's reviews?

Incidentally, I love Blondie's new female vs. male orgasm counter at the end of her reviews. I also agree that what we really need is more variety. You go girl!

Edited by - YogaGrrl on Jul 18 2002

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A lot of the sex I see in porn is just too 'porn-like' to do a lot for me. By that I mean passionless, cliched, too much of just the same genital closeups, along with the whatever trends or circus acts the porn industry has dreamed up. I have nothing against the cumshot, but what I would really like to see more of is the female having an orgasm. I just relate more to her.

Sex is a very personal thing. A lot of things people do, you will never see in a porno, and many people are just having better sex and with more attractive partners, frankly.

What I hear coming from you and Speelie seems to be based on a very narrow view of what constitutes good sex. But hey, if you like what you see and want to emulate it or incorporate into your sexlives, that's great!

Your implication is that anyone who doesn't think that a face covered in cum (or whatever) is the ultimate turn on is somehow less sexually advanced or knowledgeable than you. That's utterly ridiculous, and as specious as your arguments in the beginning of this thread.

Thinking that porn does or should reflect real life can be a sign you've been watching too much of it. Developing an almost unhealthy hero-worship towards the people in fuck films is another one, I Love Michelle Raven.

Please don't take my comments to mean that I don't like porn at all. I do, but I just get so tired of hearing these sweeping generalizations about females, or anyone who doesn't see things the same way you do.

It's a masturbatory aid for males. It's not a sex manual or yardstick by which you measure someone's sexual knowledge or prowess. Most of the guys I know don't watch it either, or very little, anyway. Does this mean that they're bad lovers? Please... they could probably teach those porn studs a thing or two.

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I'll accept your explanation about that remark, although it
said in a way that seemed to imply something else. In fact,
ILMR's whole posture has been that she has been summoned here by you to teach us all a thing or two about porn, yet she has shown an appalling ignorance of even the most basic things. That she continues to argue these points is why she has lost what little credibility she had, and people see no further point to it.

Peace!

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After posting that facials poll a few months ago, I have had the opportunity to view a few scenes in which the receivers appeared reluctant. I've seen women adopt a tight-lipped expression, close their eyes and jut their chins away. If there's any heat at all in the scene up to that point, it pretty much dissipates for me as soon as I see that type of reaction.

In order to easily enjoy porn, I think what I need to see most is a convincing sense of pleasure radiating from the actresses. I certainly don't speak for all women when I express that desire, but I'm guessing my feelings are probably pretty common. I also like to see the male talent experiencing a sense of pleasure, but I identify more with the women. Depending on the movie and on the scene, I sometimes see lots of evidence for pleasure and other times I see very little.

I think it's also correct to say that women can take porn that's designed for males and appropriate it for our own personal use. For most of us, this takes a little more effort and imagination, but it can be done (I've done this myself to some extent). I don't have any research to back this up, but I sense that Speelie is correct in his guess that the younger generation may be more adept at this. The increasing availability and accessibility of porn works to their benefit; I didn't see my first adult film until I was 27, by which time my sexual tastes were already fairly well matured and defined.

I think (hope) that the trend in adult movies is toward greater diversity in the depiction and tone of the sex acts and toward more and more emphasis on female pleasure. I see this happening especially in the works of female directors who aren't afraid to push the boundaries (GO TINA TYLER GO!). I think all porn viewers, male and female, would benefit from having even more variety and more choices available, and we're not going to get that unless we keep asking for what we want.

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P.S. I have to mention that I use the virtual Ginger most of the time!

Edited by - menace on Jul 21 2002

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In its essence, all porn is is recorded sex. What I don't understand is why it suddenly becomes "a man's thing" because it's on film. These paid performers do the same thing that many of us did when we were single: have sex with people we weren't married to. Don't tell me that "pornstars don't know each other" because a) the porn community is *really* a community, where everyone is 2 degrees separated from each other; and b) hasn't anyone in this forum ever had sex with someone they met that same night in the club, or that morning in Cardio class? At least in the porn biz you can be relatively certain that an unknown partner is HIV negative.

The following is a real question, not a rhetorical one: What do you think a videotape of you and your partner having sex would look like to someone who didn't know you? How would it be different from porn?

I know as well as anyone that there is a lot of male-targeting in the marketing. I've seen an uncountable number of "Lesbian This and That's" with performers saying "Don't you wish you were here boys?" I also know that 10000 (literally) videos are released a year and that no matter what you're looking for (if it can be made for a few thousand dollars), it's out there. Problem is, a "good storyline" [if that's what anyone is suggesting women want more of] is not cheap and easy, and without possibility for theatrical distribution, any porno is at a disadvantage compared to any movie without explicit sex.

I've always theorized that a revolution in porn as we know it (mediocre and low budget) will not come from Chatsworth, but from Hollywood. When directors like Spielberg and Kubrick are not financially punished for putting explicit sex in their films, then sex will be released from the porn ghetto and the porn biz will change radically. What *we*, as people who are not afraid of depictions of sexuality, must do is come out of the closet with our desire to see explicit sexuality. We must do what our porn-hating sisters do: write letters to Joe Lieberman and his colleagues. We need to tell them that the phrase that begins "Congress shall make no law..." does not end in "...except where sex is involved."

And when we're sitting on the bench at the soccer field with the other moms, far away from our secret porn stashes, we have to stop them when they're ranting about "so much sex in the movies our kids watch" and call them hypocrites to their face. We need to tell them that kids aren't stupid and wouldn't be there in the first place if it weren't for sex. We need to call them out on their belief that sex is ok if me and hubby do it, but not ok if anyone else does it, even simulating it onscreen. We need to tell them that a reason sex in movies is so often immaturely portrayed is because when it's maturely portrayed, it gets an NC-17 and the director must change it or lose the opportunity to make future movies.

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Right on. And this has nothing to do with the porn itself, but the shame and fear factors that have surrounded women's sexuality for centuries before mass distribution of porn. When I write things like this, though, I don't mean that porn fans should "stop griping" about content. I'm saying that the best content in the world won't convince more porn-inexperienced women to walk into the back room. I say put the sex on the New Release walls, within the latest Oscar-nominated release.

Dumblonde wrote:
"You seem to feel that I made this up to support some kind of agenda I have, when actually, it's a commonly known fact."

But it's not a fact, it's an opinion. That's all I'm saying. The *facts* are that 10,000 porn vids are released each year, and that the porn industry is made up of hundreds of different companies around the world that try to cater to every market possible. There *are* videos made by women, for women, even starring women only.

I don't think you have an agenda, DB. I just think you're taking the facts that most porn is *bought by* men and *made by* men and using that to conclude that no porn is made with women consumers in mind. You want men pleasuring women? I've got some Vivid 4hr compilations for you. You want "hot" guys? Describe your ideal guy and I can find some performer somewhere who looks just like that. You want scenes where the man ejaculates within the woman? I can already think of 2 *series* that cater specifically to that. You want sex within a relationship? I can fill a shelf with scenes between pornstars married (or otherwise partnered) in real life.

DB wrote:
"I try to look at porn from the perspective of this potential market, or more of a 'typical' female point of view (if indeed there is such a thing!), because I realize only too well that I'm probably not 'typical' in this way. I myself have kinks that might curl your hair, but I try not to let that influence me. I hope I'm making sense here."

You're making perfect sense! But doesn't "typical" mean "stereotypical" in this case? I think you may have stereotypes of what the "typical" women want to see. As is shown on this board and in your own life, once women are into porn, our tastes are as varied as men's. By hiding your kinks, it could be that you're witholding your full reviewing potential from us. What person doesn't think our kinks are weird until we get online and find out there's 100 websites dedicated to each? You're a real woman; your honest opinion counts as much as a less kinky woman's! What if, by not letting your kinks influence your reviews, you pass up chances to make other women with the same kinks feel less ashamed of said kinks?

DB wrote:
"You are happy with the status quo, that's great."

I never said that. I would say that I know *exactly* what to expect from porn. If I'm in the mood for a good story, I watch "Gosford Park". If I'm in the mood for a blood-engorged mons, I watch "Gosford Pork".

DB wrote:
"You're not the first person I've angered with them [my reviews]"

They didn't anger me. They made me think. They made me ask questions. They made me want to know more. Like I said in my email to you, I love the "character" that is dumblonde the reviewer, standing strong for straight girls everywhere. I'm glad that you reward movies that give you what you think your audience needs. I love that you have high standards and that you fussily nitpick imperfections. If anyone in the industry listens, it's a bonus.

DB wrote:
"it seems you have some homework to do"

Actually, porn *is* my homework.

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Edited by - dumblonde on Jul 24 2002

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I never said or meant that 100% of it was made for men, but the overwhelming majority are. Of course I realize that there are a few exceptions, but that's splitting hairs.

"but if porn was made exclusively for men to masturbate to, then wouldn't there be no women on this very forum? We who are here on ADT, and the millions of us who watch it, would not be getting off on it."

Again, I never said exclusively, I said ALMOST exclusively, so it's still splitting hairs.

I base my opinions on facts, so I went to the members list here, and took a count using the first 7 pages (there's countless pages of one or two time inactive posters, but I'm willing to bet the numbers are similar). Here's what I came up with, for what it's worth:

Males - 320
Females - 18 ( 6 of these however, are porn actresses, which for our purposes really shouldn't be counted, but I did anyway)

So, even counting those six, it comes to around 6%? (I don't have a calculator handy)

That sounds pretty realistic to me, and that's not just my opinion. That is a fact, not some vague number I pulled out of the air. Steph and Drew used to run DivaDee, an online porn seller, which is probably the most accurate way of measuring this percentage. Steph has already stated that it is a TINY percentage. Yet, you continue to argue the point.

As for "standing up for straight girls everywhere" you would be surprised that the majority of email I get is from men who
feel very much as I do about what is erotic. The reason they stay away from public forums is because of this bullying tendancy or sideways putdowns from people who imply that they're 'newbies' or 'beginners' simply because they don't share the same taste in porn. This is the intolerance I see. I'm not the one who is angry, and I don't understand why ILMR keeps beating a dead horse.

Menace, have you checked out Being With Juli Ashton from VCA? It's another great Fantasex dvd. I just got around to seeing it, and should have the review up soon, but you can see the screenshots here.

Peace,
DB

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Regarding the If Porn Is Made for Men discussion, ILMR's last posts have really helped me to understand where our communication might be crossing. We are in radical disagreement about some fundamental points, especially the statement that: "In its essence, all porn is is recorded sex." If we can't concur on this most basic of issues, it is highly unlikely that we will agree about whether it's a good idea to tell soccer moms that they're hypocrites.

For myself, I am now feeling at peace with this. I am pleased and acceptant that other people have opinions which are different than mine. I am also willing to make some allowances for the strong feelings that go with strong opinions.

Om shanti (yes peace).

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The show (and no, I don't remember the name) featured psychologists who speculated that men and women fantasize in a drastically different way. The gist was that men fantasize in a very visual way - they like to see things that are stimulating - and that they take them for face value. It is what it is.

They depicted women, on the other hand, as fantasizing in a personal and emotional way - placing themselves in the scenario, feeling the surroundings, etc.

If there is any truth in this, perhaps it is reflected in the sales/viewership that porn enjoys.

Thoughts? (And please don't beat on me, I'm not into submission )

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Harlequin Romance Novels are for women.

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I only write them to try and inject some humor into this oh-so-serious subject, but if I sound a little irritated about
having to see extreme closeups of Tyce Bune's bunghole or watching Mark Davis burp his worm for the bazillionth time,
well excuse me, but it's because they can't compete with my imagination.
I think you hit the nail on the head, actually. Some generalizations probably are indeed true, for the most part. It's commonly believed that men in general are just more visually stimulated, straight up.

With me, it's sounds. If it wasn't for the cheesy porno music and bad dialogue, I would get much more aroused just listening to a porno, because I've already got a much hotter one running in my head. and this way, I can have whoever I want in it.

Viva le difference, I say!

Momojames,
You're liable to your ass kicked by all of us, dude!

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Those who have not read DB's reviews are missing the boat. The humor & wit in the body of the reviews is great but you've got to see the way she captions the screenshots, hilarious!

Edited by - menace on Jul 25 2002

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I agree that DB's reviews most definitely do NOT suck!

DB,

Keep it up girl! I'm a lot newer around here than you are, and the reviews (yours & the others) are what attracted me to this place to start with.

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I almost never try to "jill off" while watching porn. Menace mentioned the voyeuristic element, and I agree that the mere experience of watching is something I enjoy. The visual stimulation of porn actually does arouse me, both physically and mentally. if it's a good DVD, my vulva is engorged and my panties are quite damp by the time the movie's over (which I indicate through the "juice-o-meter" in my reviews, in case there's any doubt). Like Blondie, I also respond well to auditory stimulation—I prefer live sex sounds over music, and the sound quality of the DVD is equally important to me as the visual quality.

What seems to happen is that whenever I see appealing images, my subconscious effortlessly absorbs them. Later, when I finally do masturbate (which might be right after the movie or not until several days later), the images replay in the theater of my mind. By the time I see them again, though, they've undergone a transformation. The images themselves evolve somewhat according to my needs, but also my imagination fills in the tactile sensations, emotions, sounds and even smells that I most desire in that moment. Occasionally I get off on the very simple visual/tactile image of a cock penetrating me. Most of the time, however, my fantasies are more complex and sometimes even follow semi-elaborate storylines, almost like a waking dream.

Even before I started watching adult movies, I had quite a diverse collection of juice-inducing images in my fantasy "bank." Porn has expanded that a bit, by offering a few things I hadn't thought of before. However, there are things I fantasize about regularly that I do not see regularly in porn. There are even a few completely do-able things I've fantasized about that I've never once seen in porn. Here's a short list of examples: a woman receiving oral from one man while simultaneously receiving vaginal penetration from another man, a man and a woman sharing opposite ends of an anal double dong, a man and a woman peeing into the same toilet at the same time (before or after sex)...I could go on, but you get the idea. These types of images may well exist on DVDs somewhere, but occasionally it just seems like I have to look hard to find those things that specifically turn my female crank. And so far I've only been talking about the mechanics of the sex acts; I haven't even really begun to discuss the importance of motivation, context and intent.

Overall, though, I'm not complaining (much). In the twelve months that I've been watching porn regularly, it has been an overwhelmingly positive force in my life. When it hasn't been positive, it's at least been thought provoking. I suppose it's a little unfair of me to expect porn to always live up to my fantasies. Adult movies involve real people and very real budget constraints, and I understand there are often limits to what can be done. Still, it never hurts to ask...

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When I am driving home from work, I will occasionally feel the urge coming on. By the time I'm home, I've decided which DVD and which scene. I pop it in. And it works!

I know this explanation/description is not as elaborate or fluid as yours, but it is kind of in keeping with the difference in mind set. Very straightforward and to the point!

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The closest I've been to climaxing while actually watching a porno was during Girl Show. (There's a delightful irony both in the fact that it's a female masturbation disc and in the fact that the director is a male who has somehow intuited my needs.) A couple of the actresses have attitudes and techniques that are very similar to mine, so I found myself strongly resonating with them. Still, I ultimately had to stop the DVD and retreat to my bed to really focus on the task at hand.

What continues to intrigue me, however, is the idea that Speelie alluded to. If a woman is exposed to porn in her teens (which I was not), is it possible that she'll very naturally use porn the same way that many men do? Or is there really a difference in the way our brains are sexually hardwired? I have no answer for this one...

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I might add that we love the A-B repeat for this purpose. If it's getting close-we can make sure the most appealing scene (usually the cumshot) is going to be running when we're ready to go!

Edited by - menace on Jul 25 2002

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Hardwired? A definite maybe!

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quote:
" a man and a woman sharing opposite ends of an anal double dong, a man and a woman peeing into the same toilet at the same time (before or after sex)..."

Actually, these are two of my favorite replayed fantasies,
which I have been fortunate enough to experience. Except
I didn't have the anal part, if you get my drift. Let me just say that they are rare in that it's even BETTER than the fantasy.

I had a completely rational post that addressed something else, but I forget what it was now. I'll be back.

Thanks guys!
<<<<[[[[

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But you know, I wonder if my comments could have been misconstrued to mean "Porn is for men, we shouldn't be watching it" or something like that, when that's not what I mean at all.

What I object to is attempting to diagnose the majority of females who don't watch porn with some self-serving intelligence-insulting theory that they've been 'duped', when actually, there's various and much simpler reasons. One of my goals is to try to get more variety and creativeness out of the porn industry.

ILMR seems confused that as a porn reviewer I would make such blasphemous remarks, but she is new here, and probably hasn't come across a site like ADT in her porn travels. Yes, we're porn fans, but in a sea of garbage, smoke and mirrors, we like to think there is at least one place where people can go for the truth and to discuss porn in an intelligent and friendly way.

Steph is too modest to tell people, but she is a graduate of U.C. Berkeley, and Drew is some kind of computer genius. They like porn too, but never edit reviews and do not require us to be cheerleaders.

I'm not sure what Sbando Boy meant, but I do remember him calling me out publically and angrily when he didn't like my Rocco Animal Trainer #4 review. HoustonDon predicted this happening and has drifted away, though for other reasons as well.
We've lost the regular interaction of other studio reps because the porn tastes of the vocal main forum members seem to center on one type of porn. According to ILMR, any other type is 'beginner' or 'newbie'. I disagree, but I certainly don't see any intolerance on ADT's part. Just the opposite.

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More to discuss later about sex fantasies. Got to go. Did you notice my new "location"? Quotes are ok, right? Or do I need to attribute it? Oh well, sue me for plagiarism!-menace

Edited by - menace on Jul 25 2002

Edited by - menace on Jul 25 2002

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"...women's brains are "wired" to recall emotions more keenly than men's.

...evidence suggesting that women are better at remembering information about others, whereas men are somewhat better at remembering information that happened to them."

As far as generalisations go I can't argue with that last part, at least.

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At the center of art is the artist, who, in essence, is going to create what she wants to create, whether that be a beautiful gape or a beautiful exploration of the effect of a parent's death on a family. What effects the artist most (even more than a critic or a fan's input) is freedom of expression. In the moviemaking world, porn directors have the most freedom of expression but the least money. Mainstream directors have the most money but the least freedom of expression. Porn directors may want more human drama, but they don't have the money to hire the people who can create and portray this well. Mainstream directors may want to show more explicit sexuality, but they will be financially punished by the MPAA and theatrical distributors if they do.

If we want porn to change, we have to think of ways to free the expression of the *mainstream* industry, not the porn industry. In the endgame of porn's evolution, it will be the mainstream side's destruction of barriers to sexual expression that will improve pornography. So much so that we, with our 21st century eyes, would not even recognize it as pornography.

The other section of this level I wanted to bring this discussion to was women and men's personal comfort with different forms of sexual expression and artistry. We have talked more about this section in this forum. It's too bad that I presented so many questions (real questions, not rhetorical ones) that went unanswered except by Steph, whom I greatly appreciate for doing. She gave me some new information that expanded my knowledge. I know that on the internet it's difficult to ingest a long post with a barrage of questions. That barrage can appear to be a "beating of a dead horse". That's not what I'm about.

When I ask questions, I really want to hear your answers to them; my questions are queries, not declaratives. I've adapted to the form of message boards; it seems more logical to ask many questions at once and wait for the responses than to ask one at a time and risk forgetting all the questions I have. I am here to read and learn, and the best way I learn is through the Socratic method of Q & A. When something raises many questions for me, I feel I'm honoring a post by responding to everything in it that makes me think. What may look like "picking everything apart" to some, to me is "wow, everything you've said is so thought-provoking that I must know more." I acknowledge that not everyone has the time to respond to posts as thoroughly as I do, but please don't summarize, minimize then bowdlerize my words. They're all I have to communicate with.

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Men would more often look us in the eyes if they weren't so often downcast

Edited by - ILMR on Jul 28 2002

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2. Before you guys get too much of a head of steam behind your idea that men don't watch porn then jill-off later, go to Usenet's r.a.m.e (moderated) and look at the endless posts of men who went to XXX theaters (in the 70's and earlier) then jilled off when they got home.

3. Sometimes I watch porn and masturbate at the same time for hours at a time. Granted, when I do this, I'm probably doing something else at the same time, like posting here. (I was born to mulit-task) I think that personal masturbation/orgasm procedure may help determine what we do with our porn. I had a friend who only needed to masturbate for 2-3 minutes and she was done. Turn her over and put her to sleep. I can easily imagine someone like that watching an entire porno then getting off on it afterwards, because otherwise she would never finish a video. I prefer taking a long time...going to the edge then pulling back.

DB wrote:
"I never said or meant that 100% of it was made for men, but the overwhelming majority are. Of course I realize that there are a few exceptions, but that's splitting hairs."

Yes, and that hair is significant when we're talking about 10000 new porn releases a year. Even if the overwhelming majority was 95%, that would leave 500 videos a year made for women. Even *I* couldn't watch all those. Being a reviewer, much of what you watch is given to you, not chosen by you, so you have to watch a lot of porn you wouldn't spend your own money on.

You still haven't addressed my point that once women are into porn, our tastes are as varied as men's. For every aspect that you'd list that defines porn as "for men", you're going to find women who have *already* written somewhere in this forum or r.a.m.e that they like that. Do they not count?

So what makes porn "majority for men"? Facial cumshots? 2 women on this very thread have already said we like those, and one of those women linked to a whole discussion about it. Please tell me specifically what you mean, DB.

DB wrote:
"Males [on ADT] - 320
Females - 18 ( 6 of these however, are porn actresses, which for our purposes really shouldn't be counted, but I did anyway)
So, even counting those six, it comes to around 6%? (I don't have a calculator handy)"

1. How can you tell who is m vs f?
2. "Percentage of female posters on ADT" is not the same as "Percentage of women who have seen porn in the past year"

DB wrote:
"Steph and Drew used to run DivaDee, an online porn seller, which is probably the most accurate way of measuring this percentage. Steph has already stated that it is a TINY percentage. Yet, you continue to argue the point."

Steph and Drew will probably also concur that
1. The internet itself is male-dominated.
2. Purchasers of electronics and software tend to be male.
3. Early adapters of new electronics tend to be a *very* male demographic.
4. Adding porn to the above 3 factors would of course lead divadee.com to attract an overwhelmingly male demographic.
5. The male/female percentages of an adult website's visitors is not as accurate a representation of women's use of porn as a survey asking them exactly that is.

DB wrote:
"The reason they stay away from public forums is because of this bullying tendancy or sideways putdowns from people who imply that they're 'newbies' or 'beginners' simply because they don't share the same taste in porn."

I don't know why this is included in a post responding to me, because I didn't say anything like this.

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