It's the stated policy of AdultDVDTalk to support the adult industry's efforts to protect their copyrighted property.
With that in mind, be aware that it's problematic to have an open discussion of these issues here. It's not that there aren't lots of good and valid arguments to be made from many different perspectives, it's just that ADT is really not the best place for those arguments to be made.
We have a delicate community here that includes a lot of industry insiders and producers, and it's a community we want to maintain. Issues like this are better discussed in other venues.
I hope you understand, but I think locking this thread now is for the best.
Marlaw88 has clarified his intentions for this thread in email, and asked that the thread be reopened. I think he's right, and so I'm going to unlock it on these conditions:
Marlaw, I hope, will come around soon to help clarify his question and state his goals for the thread, which I think are fair ones.
Aside from that, this is not a thread to discuss the "merits" of peer to peer networks, or to debate the finer points of fair use provisions. As far as I understand, Marlaw is looking to lead an open discussion among industry participants to see what can and should be being done about copyright infringement in the adult industry.
Please stick to that topic, and avoid any inadvertant advertising for systems or networks that promote or encourage the infringement of copyrights. Thanks in advance for your help. :)
I think the RIAA is taking the wrong path, trying to ban a technology that certainly has plenty of legitimate uses. Only a few times in history has Pandoras Box regained its contents. If file sharing technology is banned, how will buisnesses operate? A company of any size is computerized and networked.
Orin Hatch has also been bought by the entertainment industry and doesn't bother to show it. If they sneer at the adult industry, so will he. If they get the green light I guess we can see the more articulate producers in a Senate hearing.
Quote: Everyoine who has produced copyrighted material has the right to protect it. Copying is fine for private use, but not for resale. EndofQuote
I fully understand that and I totally agree.
On the other hand, I am just not able to buy a porn movie, because I can't afford even a cheap one right now. And there is the problem of buying a product that I maybe really dislike or that shocks me.
As a female, I'm not in the target group for porn action and advertising, just curious and trying to expand my knowledge, but I don't want to see what I might consider degradation.
So, if I (in theory) download a scene from a porn movie, I would not ever sale it or try ot make profit off it in any form. Is it valuable to say: "Shared porn or no porn" on a strictly non-commercial basis?
Of the nearly 1000 DVDs I own (all purchased legally), nearly 40 are now unplayable. Of these, 7 are mainstream movies, 1 is str8 porn and 31 are gay porn. (I can't see any discernable defects - they simply refuse to play completely or go all pixilated at spots and shut down - no scratches that I can find.) Ignoring the 8 "cheap" DVDs, the 31 gay porn titles cost me well over $1000. That is a lot of money to throw away if I cannot make copies for my own use in the privacy of my own home.
My philosophy is that if I am not allowed to make copies for my own use, then the producer of the original disc OWES me a copy for a nominal fee should mine ever become unplayable outside of abuse on my part.
My philosophy on copies for friends is that I had to pay for it -- why should I "give" it away? Peer-to-peer sharing, via whatever media, be it file transfer or by handing out discs, is, and should be, illegal.
That being said, I, too, agree that RIAA are a bunch of thugs using methods approaching those of mafia-related loan sharks. There need to be better methods for protecting both the rights of the copyright holders and the consumers.
Interesting point about the Limo, I have not considered that and you are right, I'm wrong.
About working and saving money, while I don't think you called me lazy here, I have to disagree, I have a fulltime job and 2 jobs at the side and can barely make end meets, it is the economical situation in my area that makes me poor, not my work ethics.
MissJanet, are you on Hartz IV or why can´t you afford to buy even cheap DVD´s? Okay, if you´re on "Schröder´s payroll" you have plenty of time watching adult entertainment.
BTW: I´m always amazed when folks telling me they cannot afford buying DVD, or Music-CD´s but easily have around 100€ in their pockets paying for the whole broadband connection!
That´s said, I´m totally with GaySatyr comments about the RIAA. The Media Industry should concentrate on creating sexy, valuable and not least quality products and sell them for a fair price. It isn´t necessary that every Time Warner / Sony / etc. manager needs his own yacht in St. Tropez! If you look at the situation here in Germany you´ll see that the independent, small music label far more successful than the big companies (Global players) like Sony who have now too many laywers, businessmen and corrupt managers on board and not the artists who were the only ones able to create new things! You wouldn´t expect a manager calls him- or herself Creative director a creative person at all, do you!
Porn is a little bit different, sure, but even here I guess Filesharing is not the big deal. I guess a lot of these users just simply download something and checking if it´s worth buying. Switching off Peer-to-Peer wouldn´t mean a lot more sold copies for the adult biz!!!
As well, I didn´t see the adult companies starving if looking at the profits they make!
GS's point brings to mind something I've wondered about several times - and it's more of a copyright/rights/licence question than a filesharing one, though I'm sure peopel can see where it relates - as it seems the RIAA and so on are pushint eh idea that when you buy a CD/DVD/Computer software you're actually buying "the licence" to use the product/data/intellectual property rather then buying the prduct to do what you want with (hence all the arguments for backups).
With this is mind, I have to wonder what the legal situation is when someone has an item stolen, or an item is lost. (Stolen DVDs/CDs? Well I bought the damn things legally, after all. Do my rights to legally view/hear the images/sound end when my own rights are violated and the items are stolen? If my purchase of the physical item buys me the "licence" to view the prduct, then shouldn't I retain that licence even in the event of loss/destruction/theft of the original item it came on?
I've probably mistyped something or another here as I'm playing World of Warcaft as I type this...
LOL Stemcell, I'm not im Hartz, no. My boss cannot pay more money, so in his wisdom he decided that he pays my internet connection to help out a bit. That is why I'm here. Renting some DVDs would be great but I just can't see me doing that. I'm probably just to "verklemmt".
Sorry, I forgot that in the USA there is a much bigger range in affluence than in Western Europe.
But I am so tired of this "I can't afford it that's why I download it". I've heard this so often, mostly from young school kids who spent their whole time downloading music and films instead of doing their homework or trying to earn some money to buy their favourite CDs and DVDs.
I was raised that I have to do without if I can't afford it. I know my point sounds "old fashioned". But porn is not essential like your daily bread.
juha, I'm in germany, just like you, but things get rougher here all the time. I had a very good job in advertising for quite some years, that's why I'm interested in the porn industry in the first place, I have met some interesting people when I did cover for Videos and later DVDs. But advertising is a dead industry right now and I have to work in another field, where I'm unexperienced and cannot make good money, I'm working on it, but I'm honestly really dirt-poor nowadays, but happy to have a job at all.
Very interesting point but i think (but not agree) they consider a licence as a permit to view when you legally own , for example if someone steal your TV and you have a DVD you paid to watch at, have you the right to ask for a new TV from a DVD producer? Of course not .same thing for a DVD you've the right to see it but only if you have it in hands , to resolve this problem and have a substitute this can be if every DVD is numbered and you must sign a license then you may ask for a new copy if yours is stolen but you'll be jailed for every illegal copy shared on a p2p or a for burnt one which has your number.
BTW in Many countries , Great Britain, Italy and more you have the right to make a backup copy of any DVD , CD or Software in order to preserve the original one or to substitute it if damaged , but you must have both of course
Edited by - Laurie Cameron Fan on 4/8/2005 7:49:34 AM
Ach, mach dir da mal keine Sorgen. Hier wird ja auch manchmal Französisch oder Spanisch gepostet. Da verstehe dann z.B. ich kein Wort.
Vielleicht könnten wir ja einen ganzen "German porn fans"-Thread aufmachen? Gibt ja sogar deutschsprachige Stars hier im Forum.
Okay, now I switch back to English or at least what I was tought at school to be English. Since you seem to look for the more classy porn instead of Gonzo anyway you should check out the store I mentioned in the international shopping guide. https://www.adultdvdtalk.com/forum/topic.dlt/whichpage=4/cat_id=2/forum_id=11/topic_id=19598/19598.htm
9 Euro for four hours Wicked or Vivid entertainment is not that expensive.
I hate to be a downer, but this is exactly what I didn't want this thread to become. I understand the arguments with regard to fair use (copying for personal use) and that there might be arguments to be made in favor of file sharing, but like I said before, these are not discussions that are appropriate to have on ADT.
Instead of focusing on that, can we focus a little more on what the adult industry (knowing that they don't have the vast resources that RIAA or the MPAA has) can do to protect their content while still not screwing the honest, paying consumer at the same time? Is there anything they can do? Any industry participants want to throw their hat in the ring on this subject?
Creampies, Blowjobs and Asians..... Oh My! 236 Posts 9/04
Posted - Apr 8 2005 : 9:55AM
I know we've had a thread or two similar to this before. Part of producing a product and maintaining a brand is protecting your creation from theft. I guess the issue is what exactly constitutes theft.
My products can be viewed three different ways. Through my websites, through VOD rentals or through a solid DVD. Peer to peer theft is an issue for the big boys (Evil Angel, Red Light, etc). When you have a great brand and recognizable product and sought after product, that's when you need to be diligent to protect your brand and products.
File sharing is stealing, since the producer did not give permission to trade or view the products. I am completely with GS, if you buy a legitimate DVD from a company, you should absolutely have the right to make a copy for your own personal use.
Some companies have actively gone after the file sharing community. The actually have in house legal that send out cease and desist notices to persons trading their products. From what I understand, it is very effective.
Some of the bigger adult companies have their movies traded 1000's of times a day. I'm sure those companies would like to have 1/100 of those being real sales. So file sharing means that people are obtaining a service without paying for it. In the end, that lack of income reduces the financial reasons for producing smut!!!
Owning porn isn't a right, just as owning a car, buying a stereo or having broadband isn't a right. It's a luxury, like most things in life. Buy what you like.
The difference of course being that a TV set is a physical object that comes with no licences (like a car, or a kitchen knife), while if the purchase of the CD is in fact the purchase of the licence to listen to it then you're purchasing the right to use that IP (intellectual property).
This is not the intented topic of the thread. The legality or illegality of the programs and the users themselves are not what is supposed to be discussed. The question is whether the higher ups in the adult industry feel the need to follow the RIAA an the MPAA. This was my email to adultdvdtalk asking to re-open my thread and re-defining my question:
I would first like to thank you for responding so quickly to my email. As you know, the RIAA and the MPAA are very aggressive in the protection of their intellectual property rights. As far as I am ableo determine, the adult industry has not chosen to follow suit to prevent the theft of their property. Copyrighted adult material makes up a large percentage of what is being shared illegally. Take just about any adult studio, actor, actress, or website operation and search for it or them and you will see enormous results. I just wonder why the adult industry has not chosen to be more aggressive.
I am not asking to discuss the merits of these networks. I just want to know what the opinions are of the people who actually some stake in this game. Jules Jordan, for example, has thousands of files being shared daily. I would like to know what he considers to be the pros and cons of peer to peer litigation as evidenced by the RIAA . The same goes for everyone else. I hope that I have explained somewhat of what it is that I would like to ask. As you put it, I would like to know the insiders take is on the issue of the litigation itself, not the actual sharing. Thanks again for considering my thread.
We're OT , it was perhaps a wrong example , but the question is real , if you sell your DVD and ask for another one how a company can be sure you're not tryng to stole a new copy? and after you own your DVD who's responsible for caretaking? How many people take care of DVDs or CDs if a company resend what had been stolen?. You buy the right to see one DVD but this right is intended on that DVD only if that DVD is stolen license is also stolen with it.
Are we supposed to suggest to companies what to do in order to protect their rights?
there's a simple but dangerous answer ask to bigots, if they realize that non one knows the age of those who are downloading by a P2P sharing program , be sure that they will block everything , but they might choose to forbid porno forever , this is a risk.
of course the lawyers and lobbyists got to have a bit of the cake .. and a trip to Amsterdam for Delay and family.. hmmm that will be say 5 dollars more for a DVD..
It's my believe that P2P in the long run leads only to increased sales because of increased interest. Students can't afford too much, but what about when they get nicely payed jobs then? I think the companies are panicking for no reason. I've downloaded A LOT of stuff... but I still want all the good stuff retail... and it's A LOT.
Before I downloaded, I bought very little because I didn't know of all the awesome stuff out there. Now I know, and my wanted list is neverending...
Paying trib-ute to SinncentVanSage 1412 Posts 12/04
Posted - Apr 8 2005 : 9:52PM
That's exactly my experience too, mainly in the music industry but also partly in adult industry. I don't want to support illegal P2P sharing here but adult industry as well as music industry need to make part of their products available for free in a legal way so you can get to know something about it. I wouldn't have bought most of the stuff I own without being informed about the contents. And I don't see why I should rent something I don't know anything about. There should be a legal way of getting free stuff to tease you. I'm sure both consumer AND industry would profit. Of course there are trailers to some movies but more often than not there is none. Now you can say people will just get off watching the trailers and not buying the movies anymore. Well maybe you're right... after all it's just sex... nothing that stimulates curiosity... you lose interest immediately as soon as you've watched the trailer. Sorry, but after having seen sweet little Gauge I knew I have to support the industry for my own's sake. Unfortunately I wouldn't know her if it were not for breaking the rules sometimes. And it should be considered a human right to know Gauge without having to break the rules, so there should be a legal way to preview a product for free for people like me who DON'T want to act in an illegal way but also don't want to spend money on something they don't have a clue about. You can listen to CD's in some of our local music stores for free before you buy 'em, and for more than 30 seconds, too. Why not transferring that idea online? At least I would stop P2P-ing at once.
This is not the question , Question is if the Industry have to do somethimg or not to protect herself from piracy , and what kind of effect this new policy may have for us .
P2P is not the main topic but it is one of most used systems to violate Intellectual Property, but also are burnt copies for example. But this is not a Topic on P2P.
Marlaw88 is tryng to keep this Topic on its way it is better if we try to help him in this either
I can understand the ideal of creating a product that you are proud of, yet also want to make a profit from.
I think the ideal comes down to fetish. If you are into a broad fetish, like straight fucking or basic anal, you're set. There must be a billion websites devoted to those 'broad sexual deviances'. However, if you are into certain 'acts' that are limited to a smaller audience, or that are aimed at a smaller audience, I would advise you hold those near and dear to your heart. There are much less studios that are able to shoot those 'special' acts and willing to provide those 'special' acts to the masses (everyone one the internet).
For the most part, everything I have produced has dealt with solo scenes. I have mixed in a few couple and anal scenes, but those have been from a formulation of opportunity and dealings with legitimate couples.
Porn seems to be a fleeting vice: What I have always encouraged is that if you see something you like.... buy it. There is not certainty you will ever find it again.
Thank you Laurie for the help. Fair use and dvd archiving is not the issue. While it is a huge issue and extremely important, I agreed to steer the conversation away from that topic. I am an attorney, and I also own a small copyright business. I handle all kinds of copyright issues. I have been contacted by a few adult website owners asking about their rights concerning the p2p users and file sharing. With the RIAA boasting a large percentage drop in illegal sharing, would this work for the adult industry? Would the backlash be from the public as well as the industry itself? Basically, if the larger adult studios and websites actively started following the path if the RIAA, what would happen inside and outside of the industry?
I do have some strong feelings on that, but if that'd get your thread locked again, I'll hold off.
So, what you're asking, is whether taking the litigious approach of the MPAA and RIAA would cause a PR backlash for the porn industry?
I doubt it.
The RIAA have gotten some bad press over their extremely aggressive tactics when going after minors, but most people forget it again pretty quickly.
The MPAA brazenly claiming one day in congressional hearings, that illegal copying is killing the movie industry, and the next day proudly announcing record earnings to the stockholders, seems to have been largely forgotten also.
I don't see why the porn industry should fare any worse. Especially if they mainly go after bootleggers and others who actually sell the pirated material.
While I feel strongly about fair use, I can't see how anyone could object to copyright holders going after bootleggers with everything they've got. Especially the porn industry, who doesn't try to limit access with regional coding.
One interesting possibility might be, if they went after P2P traders, and found out that several major offenders were very much underage. That's not an unlikely scenario.
Would they be better off keeping that to themselves or not?
Edited for another f*cking spelling blunder. Grrr.
Not to change the subject, but I own about 1,600 DVD and like GaySatyr, I too have had about 50 porn disc become unplayable or develop some form of defect, even though the disc are in mint physical condition and in most cases I have only viewed them once. If the consumer takes good care of the disc and it becomes defective, the porn company that produced the movie should pay to replace them for FREE!!!!! 95% of the dvds that I've had problems with were Evil Angel titles and the other 5% were from Adam and Eve.
Evil Angel replaced most of their dvds for free and I haven't had any problems so far with the replacement dvd's Adam and Eve on the other hand were complete A**holes!!!!!!
Quote from: GaySatyr Of the nearly 1000 DVDs I own (all purchased legally), nearly 40 are now unplayable. Of these, 7 are mainstream movies, 1 is str8 porn and 31 are gay porn. (I can't see any discernable defects - they simply refuse to play completely or go all pixilated at spots and shut down - no scratches that I can find.) Ignoring the 8 "cheap" DVDs, the 31 gay porn titles cost me well over $1000. That is a lot of money to throw away if I cannot make copies for my own use in the privacy of my own home.
Quote from GayStayr:
My philosophy is that case wereif I am not allowed to make copies for my own use, then the producer of the original disc OWES me a copy for a nominal fee should mine ever become unplayable outside of abuse on my part.
I appreciate coyright laws. I want to buy online. But when I find something interesting to buy ... many merchants still refuse to accept my international Visa classic card, just because "right now we don't accept credit card payment from your region/country" because of high fraud rate I guess.What's politely said to go away ... That is the reply which is given to 9/10 of worlds population. There are Russia, China most Eatern European countries and many other Asian African countries ... wich citizens US merchants don't accpept to pay with Visa credit card. If all these people can't buy, why to blame them for using p2p network instead? RIAA obviously has to accuse merchants first and next file sharing. That is what for I have got the international Visa - to buy online - but most often it's not accepted just because I'm living in the wrong country - Latvia.
For the 27th time, can we PLEASE stick to the original subject? If all we're going to talk about here is fair use, back ups for personal use and whether or not P2P networks are useful to the industry, I'm going to lock the thread.
As far as what _I_ think. I absolutely support the efforts of the RIAA and MPAA in going after individual violators... meaning sueing whoever is actually stealing or illegally sharing their content with others. I don't care if the violators are minors or not. I think they are within their rights to sue the people who are stealing their stuff without permission, and by extension scaring the shit out of others who would do the same. I think those individual lawsuits DO act as a deterrent.
I don't think that going after the peer to peer networks themselves is the answer, or ultimately the right way to deal with the problem, as it has larger ramifications that stifle the development of potentially useful technologies.
That said, though, I realize that the porn industry doesn't have the resources, or ultimately the same kind of support in the courts that the RIAA or MPAA might have, and that probably complicates the problem for porm producers even further. I don't think the answer is a simple one, but one thing is for sure... and this is something that will not be debated on ADT --if the producers aren't giving their permission for the release of free clips over the net, that is a violation of copyright law. Plain and simple. Many producers are offering trailers. Lord knows there are more rental options out there today than there ever have been in the past. There are more reviews now than ever before as well. There are lots of legitimate ways to get an idea of what you're buying before you buy it that DON'T involve unauthorized file sharing. ADT has a policy of supporting legal and mutually fulfilling ways for people to obtain adult content. We will not debate the merits of unauthorized file sharing as "for the good of the industry, whether they like it or not" here. That's the end of it.
I really wish we could hear from more producers in this thread. Are cease and desist orders the only real weapon that adult producers have any more? Are there any other options for enforcing their copyrights that don't infringe on the rights of the paying consumers?
Outside of cease and desist letters and the actual filing of lawsuits, I do not know what to do. I have written cease and desist letters and contemplated lawsuits to help protect my clients work. I even found a rental site renting my clients dvd's without their permission. I am not sure what the answer is, all input is widely appreciated.
Quite frankly, I don't see much use to this thread (the original topic) as it stands anymore, simply because there has been no visible input from the many and various industry producers and company people that are active on ADT (not speaking of the performers, though none of them have responded either).
The only replies to this thread so far have been from various fans/consumers who obviously do not have any firsthand knowledge of the intended topic, and so the thread has naturally veered all over the shop on related tangents. MLyons, though 90% of the posts are indeed off the later-intended intent of the topic, the thread title implies otherwise, and so IMO the tangents are understandable (especially as people often write their posts before reading the entire thread.)
marlaw88, I'd suggest that if you'd like to get some productive information on this topic, you may want to email the various producers directly, as in three days and 38 replies (39 counting this one) not one industry person has replied. I can only see this thread continuing to discuss the merits of file-sharing and so forth (especially in light of the thread title) and so I am locking it.
marlaw88, if you do get any reply from email contact with the industry people here, please feel free to start a new topic, quoting any information you might get in email (with the emailer's permission) and with a more appropriate thread title and direction clearly defined from the beginning so that it doesn't immediately go in a different direction then you intended.
