Jenna Jameson

It's easier for you to sweep away differing opinions and counter arguments as "philosophical or hypothetical perspectives."

Sorry BSD nothing you have written has convinced me this was a good decision by the Marines. I dont agree with it. I can say so as many times as you can say you do agree with it.

I think the decision shows how far America has to go before we are truly comfortable with our sexuality. In time, I hope there will be progress on this front the same way there has been progress on issues like racism and sexism.

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does that mean you are acting like "a spoiled little baby" as you put it?

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That may be the dumbest statement written in this thread yet.

With virtually every post I've submitted in this thread, I have tried to keep this on topic and tried to keep my comments to the topic. Jenna Jameson and the Marine Corps Ball. That's it. Excepting the detour I made with Tricia to offer her some background on military wives, I haven't talked about much else that didn't pertain to the topic. I wasn't interested in killing and maiming and violence and all those other roads that others went down, that didn't have anything to do with J.J.

And trust me, my interest was not in changing yours or anybody else's mind on anything. No minds get changed in these things. I know people come into these discussions with their opinions already formed and their minds already set on where they are. I offered a perspective on why the Marines took the action they did, IN THIS SITUATION, and haven't spoken to anything else that wasn't connected to that.

"It's pretty obvious you have a bias for the Marines and don't want anyone to criticize them ever."

You have no idea what you're talking about.

BSD

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Reciprocity is a beautiful thing; hypocrisy, an ugly one.

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See what I was talking about and why I was reluctant, as a former Marine, to add my thoughts to this thread? It's pretty nasty now but it can get soooo much uglier. I'd rather it not.

Keep fighting the good fight.

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1) I didn't suggest that the USMC would want Jenna to do a USO tour; I was simply responding to the suggestions of certain other posters (not BSD) in that regard.

3) I respect BSD's military service to our country and the Marines' right to have the kind of function they want to have.

2) If the USMC intended to hold a serious military/social function, Tito Ortiz was a poor choice for a guest of honor.

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1.) I just think it's a bit disingenuous to turn this simple declined invitation into some sort of "I-Can't-Believe- This-Is-Happening-In-2006/treating an adult actress like a second-class citizen" situation. I guess adult film actresses are used to being the stars of the party. They must not be used to declined invitations. This isn't Alabama in the 50's. If Jenna hadn't made a big deal of it, I'm sure no one would have known anything about it.

2.) I think a lot of people took this as an opportunity to disparage and criticize the United States Marine Corps, the United States government and their foreign policy. Some people think that the USMC is worse than the Costa Nostra and Medelline cartel (combined) when it comes to randomly killing people.

Hell, on the news it was just reported that four military newspapers have all just published an editorial calling for the resignation of Donald Rumsfeld. Now, if that is not an example of our glorious freedom of speech, then I don't know what is.

Freedom of speech that is defended, bravely and selflessly by many people...including Marines.

Brian

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Jenna Jameson AND her character were absolutely challenged. I have not at this point read any articles which state that Tito was simply informed that her background (which coincides with who she is as a person) and high profile were inappropriate. The only thing I've read so far says that he was simply told that Jenna would not be an appropriate guest.

The ironic thing is that from the first article I read about this, I questioned why Tito was going to be the guest of honor anyway. That question was basically answered in the articles saying that the people who chose him had made a poor decision. I also agree with the part of the article that says that it would make much more sense if people who had actually fought in battle were the ones being honored. I have no problems with the idea that this is a military event, and celebrities who have never taken a public stance as actively pro-military just don't make sense as the honored guest.
The thing that I have taken exception to is that some people are brushing off the possibility that by the attitude in the press release, the Marines were indeed attacking who Jenna is as a person.
And I was simply saying that I found it very ironic, indeed hypocrital, that an organization which stands to protect the freedoms and diversities of our country often comes across as closed-minded and backward in issues of civil liberties and social freedoms.

I am not critizing the actual Marines that are the ones who are risking their lives to protect the freedoms and liberties of the USA, but I am indeed questioning the upper ranks of military organizations.

Thank you for acknowledging that one does not need a vast knowledge of a subject, but rather an interest and information of the subject at hand in order to form an opinion.

On a daily basis, here at ADT, I deal with people who think they know how to run the adult business and could make a better porn movie than has ever been made. I take it with a grain of salt, and do my best to try to weed out the constructive criticisms from the people who are just talking out of their ass.
Now, in one thread, not an entire board, you have people doing the exact same thing about your organization, and I can't help but wonder how you feel now that the shoe is on the other foot. It's not easy to have the entire organization that you've chosen as your career (and I understand that you're Navy and not Marine) questioned.

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The second thing to bear in mind is that military societies are rigid hierarchies.

The third thing to bear in mind is that military society hasn't changed much since the days of the Southern Antebellum.

The fourth thing to bear in mind is that an officer's wife isn't just meek Suzy Homemaker, she's a full partner in a successful officer's career, so if you don't think a wife can screw you seven ways from Sunday think again.

The fifth thing to bear in mind is BSD's point that these affairs are by and for the military wives. They may have an official sanction and use taxpayer dollars, but if you thinks the menfolk got together and decided on having a formal ball you need your head examined.

Now, maybe if Bush or God Almighty came down and said "Jenna Shall Attend And Ye Shall Smile And Be Gracious" the brass could get away with it, but that's not what happened. From the brass' point of view, having happy wives and some pissed-off civilians is highly preferable to the alternative.

Is it hypocritical? Certainly not from the wives' point of view. I'm sure that porn is something that is tolerated within the enlisted ranks, so long as it doesn't become so overt as to require official notice. However, if you're in the officers' club, then you are expected to reserve your lust for your wife, and you WILL have a wife.

So, as far as the good ladies are concerned, having a porn star elevated to their social status, however temporarily, is right out, lol.

Having said that, were I Mr. Ortiz, the Marines could take their welcome mat and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

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it seemed neither tito or the marines care that much though, its just fans of mma and porn that got in a snit

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Again like SDB said, it seems these kind of remarks are the only thing you have to fall back on, the "it's like that because THEY SAID it's gonna be like that...end of story". That doesn't fly by me, sorry. Moral of this story is, "Why the fuck bother inviting anyone at all?"

That said, Tito Ortiz wasn't going to be a fucking distraction? Com'on, what kind of bullshit excuse is that? This denial of her entrance to their precious ball had FAR MORE to do with politics & social standing then it had to do with "we'll allow who we want". If anything is un-adult & childish, that is.

You call it what you want, I'll call it mine. Just like politics, we're going to have to agree to disagree here, since NEITHER PARTY knows the motives for the dismissal. Sure, Jenna might have been pulling "attention whore" status by bringing it up, but it shows how fucking arrogant & ignorant our military when they're reaction is "He's bringing some filthy porn whore? Raise the red flag, ASAP!!"

You halfwits talk about "growing up" and "acting like an adult" in your rebuttals, but I don't see any level of admittance that the outright discrimination & singling-out of JJ was due to anything other than the fact she was a porn star. Maybe Tito should have brought that ugly dumpstar Condy-Rice to their shitty banquet?

Yeah, I still don't see what that has to do with Jenna Jameson & not getting invited to the ball. Good point!

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The ladies whose opinions we are discussing are married to the brass, not the lieutenants, and I doubt that they are quite so challenged by life's decisions.

Nevertheless, I agree that you don't need to aspire to their company.

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You do know that Hardware was talking about the wives of the officers and higher ranking Marine personnel, while I was referring to the wives and situations of the lower ranking Marines, both of whom participate in these affairs.

I'm sorry you didn't want to be informed about the people you chose to disparage. I'll try to remember that for further discussions.

BSD

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I guess overall, I'm just discouraged that on a porn board, there would be people who would just throw out the door the possibility that maybe it's the people who are closed-minded (in this case, I was implying that it's the military officials) that need to rethink their opinions of others.

I always come here because of the like-minded open individuals that are here, and seem to be of the same opinion that in an ideal world, it would be nice if society in general treated people like equals. Again, I agree that Tito was probably not the best choice up front, but it was the condescending attitude (that I may be imagining) towards Jenna and what she has chosen for her career that I am having my gut reactions to.

BSD - in all the threads about porn or my company, or especially about my directors and their movies, where you and I have had different opinions, I have never ONCE talked down to you or told you that you don't know what you're talking about or that you're acting inappropriately. You might want to take on that same type of approach towards others when the situation is reversed.

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And in all the discussions and interactions that I've had with you in this forum, and there have been many, I have ALWAYS been particularly complimentary towards you personally, and consistently laudatory towards Evil Angel as a leader in their industry.

And I have never once told you, (or any other professional pornographer here), how to make their films or run their business as you have said (correctly, I might add about OTHER PEOPLE NOT NAMED BSD), here. And whenever I offered a comment or a critique it was always from a personal, CUSTOMER, my tastes\my opinion perspective.

You're right in that there is nothing more to be accomplished here, so I'll move on down the road with you.

BSD

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I also agree that the military should change its stance on pornography, and on sex in general. Sailors, airmen, soldiers and marines have contributed massive revenue to the porn business over the decades, and I think a partnership between our armed services and the porn industry (like USO tours) would be wonderful. 70% of the customers in my store are military. 25% of them are female. Some of these women are active-duty personnel and some are wives. I get at least one wife a week coming in to buy magazines and DVDs to smuggle to her husband in a care-package. And I get several more that get porn for themselves while their husbands are deployed. Two days ago, I helped a soldier pick out 3 movies for his girlfriend. She had sent him to get her some porn and sneak it into the out-going mail to Iraq. She's stuck in the desert, she's lonely, she's horny, she's repressed out of "respect for the host country's culture," and she wants some damn porn. And God bless him, her man asked me to pick it out for her.

There's lots of middle ground. Some people would welcome Jenna at the ball. Others would shun her. I think the primary reason the average woman would be upset by her presence is simple jealousy. You get all dressed up, you even get a fancy up-do done at the hair salon, you get manicured and pedicured, and you have a friend come over to help you get your make-up just right. Your husband whistles and shakes his head in appreciative wonder when he sees you dolled-up in your fine gown, and he puffs up his chest as he escorts you into the ball because he knows he's accompanying the prettiest woman there. Then in walks a bona fide sex goddess, and suddenly you disappear. Even a woman that watches Jenna Jameson movies and gets off on them with her husband might get her feelings hurt.

Plus, the USMC had to consider that their Marines might embarrass the shit out of the Corps, should Jenna Jameson stroll through their midst. Ever seen a bunch of drunk 19-year-old guys? Ever seen them around a pretty girl? I just witnessed about 3-dozen such nimrods at a Jesse Jane signing last night, half of whom were soldiers.

I'm stating possible reasons for not extending the invitation in the first place, whether I agree with those reasons, or that decision, or not. However I believe that rescinding an invitation, or even worse telling a man that his woman isn't "appropriate" for the occasion, is wrong.

I'm sorry that I can't take a firm stance on this issue, on either side of the fence. I can see everybody's point of view, and I empathize with everybody.

Edited by - Pagoda on 11/6/2006 7:21:15 AM

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Very well said once again, Pagoda. That post was more worthwhile than 95% of the two pages before it.

"Vegetarianism for me is about saying ‘yes’ to things - even meat." - Coupling

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But again, it is a deeply rooted institution, and institutions very rarely change. The biggest change the military has dealt with in recent years is the enactment of the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy on the service of gays and lesbians. Remember how hard both sides fought against that? It wasn't good enough for gay-rights activists, and it was seen as an insult to the institution by conservatives. But gays and lesbians are benefiting from the policy, and so is our military, and by extention, so are we all. It was seen as a half-measure at the time, and partly still is. But one thing's for sure. Gays and lesbians are the only service people who get that kind of protection. The military was ordered to keep its nose out of their sexual business. Not so with married hetero couples.

Sexuality is a complex issue as it is. Throw in a stodgy, antiquated institution into the mix, and it gets even more complicated. Like it or not, Jenna Jameson is viewed by some as a symbol of promiscuity at best, and as a high-profile whore at worst. The fact is, most people don't have open minds. Most people are judgmental. In the case of homosexuals being allowed to serve, it took a controversial executive order to make that change. An order issued by a president that came under fire for his own sex life.

I'm not the least bit surprised that the Corps would cringe at the idea of a porn star attending one of their formal events. I'm just disappointed.

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There's a bit of social comment in the film The Big Red One, when they hold up at an insane asylum. At one point the commander says that killing crazy people isn't a good thing, at which one of his troops replies something like, "But killing sane people is?" And later on during a battle with German troops in the asylum one of the so-called crazy people figures he isn't mad after all after seeing all these so-called sane people slaughtering each other. Make of it what you will, but it stands to reason that someone who kills other human beings for a living shouldn't be critical of someone who simply has sex for a living.

Oh, and I wouldn't join the British Armed Forces partly because I don't want to be a government war WHORE !

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Now look who's running the house this days. Pretty sad....

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Edited by - Pagoda on 11/6/2006 5:52:13 PM

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Sorry, Pagoda, other than the above pusillanimous patch of pedantry, this old vet agrees entirely with your posts on the matter.

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Also, bear in mind that the pin-ups you speak of were from the 'legitimate' entertainment world. Some of the gals may have been fucking every producer in Hollywood but the press just winked and made them all out to be wholesome sweethearts. There's no hiding the fact that Jenna fucked for a living. Again, we can point out that there's nothing wrong with that, but getting the relevant people to agree is another matter.

* W.E.B. Griffin has an attribution in one of his war books that I've never bothered to verify, but he quotes a US general as saying "A soldier who won't fuck won't fight."

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ContactPornStars.com

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