Kat Slater & Madonna/Whore

Author	Post
Kat Slater Member 22 Posts 8/08	Posted - Aug 5 2008 : 4:34PM Several of my friends have wondered what happened to Kat Slater. Since leaving Hustler, I have continued to explore sexuality, but in a quiet "naught house-wife" sort of way, and around Hollywood's doors. I am currently writing a book and working on a television show... "Sex and The City" meets "Entourage" meets "Kat Slater." I do hope you'll all check out my brand new blog http://katinheat.blogspot.com/ to see what I'm thinking. And would love to hear your comments!!!! As a female pornographer, I am so grateful I was "allowed" into the world of pornography, and thus able to explore all sorts of my own sexuality. But, the Madonna/whore thing is still very much alive. It's a point of fascination for me these days. We all love the freedom these girls give in their intimate moments on screen, and in particular off if you've ever had that chance, but... why do men marry the Madonna and whack off to the whore? Or, more aptly... why don't they just marry the "whore?" Women all know men are sluts, so why is it women are still struggling to be the same? Look forward to all your thoughts. Miss you guys, Kat [Link]
killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18633 Posts 4/08	Posted - Aug 5 2008 : 5:24PM Personally, I don't want to have anything to do with the Madonna... And I want to sleep with the whore, but not marry her; but it's likely she doesn't want to marry anyway, because that would probably get in the way of her being what she wants to be - the whore. Marriage is for suckers, anyway. [Link]
Pagoda Senior Member Thread Killer 1747 Posts 10/05	Posted - Aug 5 2008 : 6:24PM Kat, I work in a couples-oriented sex shop and I encounter all types of women, from the extremely embarrassed, to the savvy lifestylers. One thing they all have in common is a desire to expand their sexual experience, whether in the confines of a monogomous relationship, or all on their own. They purchase everything from pornography, to anal toys, to beginners' bondage implements. I think the average woman has the desire to be more sexual, whether for her own reasons or to please her partner. I've come to the conclusion that most people have two definitions of "slutty." The first has a good connotation; a woman who's willing to try anything with her partner. The second is derogatory, referring to a sexually promiscuous woman. There's a difference between a woman who will do anything with one person, and a woman who will do something with anybody. [Link]
Kat Slater Member 22 Posts 8/08	Posted - Aug 5 2008 : 9:08PM Great point Pagoda! I suppose this standard relates to men as well. I think I'm just finding it surprising how many male friends of mine married women who are not either of the "sluts" and are now looking around the edges for that something extra. If only they could all make it over to your sex shop! I guess the point is... if you're going to marry, marry the "good slut." :-) [Link]
Pagoda Senior Member Thread Killer 1747 Posts 10/05	Posted - Aug 5 2008 : 11:12PM Kat, another observation I've made is that some men are threatened by sex toys. Can you imagine that? A man being jealous of a battery operated appliance? It happens. I've had more than one woman come into my shop to replace a vibrator her husband/boyfriend deliberately broke. I've had men ask me, "If I buy her this, what does she need me for?" I try to make them understand that a vibrator isn't capable of loving her, and most of them come around. It's a common fear that's expressed to me quite often. Some men want to be the only instrument of their woman's sexual satisfaction. This all stems from a culture of machismo, which is prevalent more certain age groups, and even some ethnic groups. But to take it further, it's a rare man who will share his woman with another human being. More are likely to let them experiment with other women, and on the condition that they're present to witness it. Homophobia is so insidious that even the most generous husband has a hard time visualizing his wife with another man, much less tag-teaming her with one. God forbid he be in the vicinity of another aroused male. Funny thing is, one of the most common female fantasies is taking on more than one man at a time, and conversely the most popular male fantasy is of sharing another woman with a female partner. I think few couples possess enough trust to actually pursue these fantasies in real life, and each individual has his or her own reason for it. The bottom line is that many people are both ashamed and afraid of their sexual fantasies and are reluctant to share them with even their own partners. [Link]

killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18633 Posts 4/08	Posted - Aug 5 2008 : 11:55PM If you'll allow me to join into the discussion again, first of all I'd like to say I too think you made a very good point Pagoda about the "two kinds of slut". I've experienced both types of women in my dating history; as a very young man, I was dating a slightly older woman who was as much of a freak as I imagined could be possible - but she only wanted to be a freak with me. In fact, she wanted to marry me, and our relationship ended as a result. But on topic, this woman would do the nastiest things I'd ever dreamed of without even batting an eyelash. So she definitely fits into the first connotation of "slutty". *Willing to do anything with somebody.* I've also dated a woman who would sleep with me, but the sex was fairly pedestrian, or "vanilla". But she also wanted to sleep with many others. I had no problem with this, and we had more of a "friends with benefits" relationship than a serious coupling, which I was fine with, but eventually even this was too much for her, and so we stopped "seeing" each other, only to have sex again every once in a while when we'd run into each other at a party or concert or something. She'd probably fit the second connotation (though I don't think of it in a negative sense, as many do). *Willing to do something with anybody.* I'd love a combination of the two: *Willing to do anything with anybody.* Pagoda wrote: Kat, another observation I've made is that some men are threatened by sex toys. Can you imagine that? A man being jealous of a battery operated appliance?... I've had men ask me, "If I buy her this, what does she need me for?" I try to make them understand that a vibrator isn't capable of loving her, and most of them come around.... Click to expand This is something I've seen and felt myself, and can definitely understand. I think what it comes down to is a lack of understanding of the purpose of sex toys (and here's where I'll stop sounding like an expert, and admit that I'm confused too). I think for most men, we see that our ladyfriend can have an orgasm (or, worse, many orgasms) any time she wants to with her toys. When we put in our absolute best efforts, eating pussy like there's no tomorrow and doing anything else we can figure out that she likes, we're very lucky to get her to have even one orgasm. For us, the sex is only good if we have an orgasm, so we assume it's the same for women (maybe it is, I don't know). So we think, "if she can have orgasms with that thing, what will she have sex with me for?" In many instances, I've thought that maybe she uses her toys when she wants good sex, and she sleeps with me when she feels pity for me. I think a lot of men think like this. It's very unnerving, since we want to think that we're all studly and such, and if the only reason we're getting any sex at all is because our partner feels badly for us, we're not going to feel all that confident in the bedroom. To be honest, I'd love some help with these questions. Is this really how it works? Do men serve any sexual purpose for women who've discovered toys other than being sperm donors? I want to think the answers to these two questions are "no", but experience tells me that they very well might be "yes". [edit: cropped quote appropriately] Edited by - killbillvol69 on 8/5/2008 11:58:25 PM [Link]
Cuddly Wombat Senior Member Just another bare bum in the shiower 1739 Posts 12/04	Posted - Aug 6 2008 : 9:40AM I have trouble meeting whores. I have no problem encountering Madonnas or even the run-of-the-mill crazy bee-atches, but I don't seem to attract the whore-type that I am really looking for. They probably think that I look and act too conservative, but we all know that looks can be deceiving. Vibrators are also cool by me - in fact I love the idea that there are times when a woman just has to have something to help her scratch that itch! [Link]
Kat Slater Member 22 Posts 8/08	Posted - Aug 6 2008 : 10:05AM killbillvol69, I would say one of the best sexual escapades I had was with my man and toyS. As Pagoda said, a very common fantasy of a woman is to be with many men at once. But, not truly all that doable in reality.... multiple toys and a man's cock can be so HOT! Toys can be used in so many ways. It's just further experimentation into pleasing your partner. I certainly wasn't offended when my guy liked a toy... yes, they're not just for women. Regarding the orgasm... women can have multiple. If you just embrace the toy, if she's into it.... don't be afraid if she cums, but the time you insert your cock she'll be over the top with pleasure. Think of toys not as a replacement of you, but as another fun thing you guys can do together. Even if that simply involves you watching her get herself off with a toy.... whatever floats everyone's boat. Toys are great fun, but have NEVER replaced a hard cock. Sure, they do a decent job when there's no man in the picture, but don't forget she doesn't have to have a toy to get herself off. If you're feeling a girl was more into the toy than you... perhaps it was just the wrong sexual connection for both of you? In all of this, an emotional factor is tied into sex for women. I do think most women want to get married, or at least have a committed partner, even if they are the kind of slut who's sleeping with anybody. I do think it's so great that you're so honest, but I think Pagoda hit the nail on the head... "trust." And that's not easy for a woman to have when she feels her partner just wants her out of there after the pop shot. I would imagine your girl really likes/liked you (she wouldn't be spreading her legs for you if she didn't), but it's a lot easier for a woman to have an orgasm with her man if she really feels this connection and level of trust. Just a guess. I would say to keep being as honest as you are, if that's really want you want, and you'll find the girl/girls who are of similar mind. In the meantime, if you get one who isn't, just enjoy it for what it is... has nothing to do with a pity fuck. And yes, Pagoda, I have witnessed that.... most people are afraid to share their sexual fantasies even with their partner. I guess it's why I started this whole question. My friend is married to the Madonna and keeps sniffing around my skirt. He made a comment, "I'm a little freaked out to think my wife will be the last one I'll ever have sex with." They've been married for 10 years, and I guess it starts getting boring around this time. So, I simply told him.... why don't you talk with your wife about this.... as in why are you telling me and not her?! I continued, "Maybe she'd be into a three-some, or she can dress up like Ursula the Russian Spy and meet you at the local bar like you've never met before, etc." He laughed and said, "You can't talk with most girls about that." I told him, "I don't understand how you can be married to someone for ten years and not be able to talk about that." It's honestly baffling to me.... because every girl I know, and from all different slices of life, would be into talking about that. I wonder if men think in order to keep their wife/Madonna on a pedestal they have to keep this stuff secret??? And on the reverse, I wonder if the wife/Madonna, in order to remain on her husband's pedestal, pretends she doesn't want to know about this. It just seems like a lot of wasted days for some great sex with the chosen partner, to me. Maybe it's why killbillvol69 isn't into marriage. :-) I would love to know more about why you really never want to get married killbillvol69? [Link]
Kat Slater Member 22 Posts 8/08	Posted - Aug 6 2008 : 10:18AM Cudly Wombat, I bet those Madonna's you're meeting probably have a whorish side to them. Just try bringing it out in them. Maybe let them know it's safe to explore. But, it sounds like you're really wanting a woman who knows her own sexuality already...hmmm... I doubt it's really your "look." What attracts women is the talk. If you're putting up a front there, the whore you want isn't going to come out. I've met plenty of preppy guys who are the dirtiest. There's nothing hotter to me, personally, than a conservative looking guy with a foul mind. Just look at the Brits. It sounds like you have a great package, no pun intended :-), but just need to show it to the ladies. [Link]
killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18633 Posts 4/08	Posted - Aug 6 2008 : 11:54PM Wow, I kinda feel like I just jumped into a hybrid between a good and honest discussion among equals, and... an advice column (and I mean that in the best possible way). :) Thanks for your post CuddlyWombat, I too have had times when I'm frustrated by finding a series of Madonnas when I was looking for a whore... but more on that later. Thanks also to Kat for your lengthy and interesting response. The first thing I wanted to address is the following: Kat Slater wrote: Toys are great fun, but have NEVER replaced a hard cock. Click to expand This is good to hear, of course. But I still don't quite get it. I mean, if I had a device which could give me many orgasms, and a woman who couldn't, I doubt I'd spend much time with the woman at all (sexually, at least). But I don't have such a device, and so I have to date women and hope for the best. But this isn't the case with women who enjoy their toys, but also enjoy their men. Why is that? What's the difference between my thinking and theirs? I mean, when I jerk off, I have to con...cen...trate... to have an orgasm. And usually it feels alright, sort of a half-orgasm, good enough to get me off, not good enough to make me forget about sex. When I do have sex (and I've been on a little bit of a dry spell lately, so I hope I remember correctly), the orgasm is full on, and usually I have that awesome, sated, tired-but-in-a-good-way feeling afterwards. Far better than when I jerk off. Part of it, I'm sure, is the emotional connection; part of it is the fact that my whole body is exercising, as opposed to when I'm jerking off and it's just my wrist; but part of it is the actual feeling of the pussy, which is so much better suited to pleasing my cock than my cupped hand is. But for women, if I understand things correctly, this isn't the case. A thrusting cock is not the best thing, strictly biologically/anatomically speaking, to provide a woman with sexual satisfaction. But many toys are perfectly designed for this purpose. Yet most (straight) women want cock anyway. I just can't imagine myself going through all the trouble that relationships/courting can be just to get something that won't get me off as well as several things I have in my bedside table drawer already. Let me just say before I finish this thought, though, that while I may be intimidated at times by toys, I don't by any means disapprove of them. I think it's awesome that there are toys out there for women (and men) to use to please themselves, as everyone should be able to live a sexually satisfied life. It's just that sometimes I don't see any reason why a woman would want me (or any man) as a lover rather than just as a friend. Anyway, before I dwell too much on that (or maybe I already have), on to other points: Cuddly Wombat wrote: I have trouble meeting whores. I have no problem encountering Madonnas or even the run-of-the-mill crazy bee-atches, but I don't seem to attract the whore-type that I am really looking for. They probably think that I look and act too conservative, but we all know that looks can be deceiving. Click to expand I've seen this with all sorts of men. Sometimes it's a case of, as Kat mentioned, the Madonnas actually being much more whorish than you think, but this never comes up in conversation due to a lack of significant communication (like the example of Kat's married friend who doesn't talk to his wife about sex). Sometimes, though, and this is where I think it's a more difficult situation to rectify, the man does indeed attract women who really are much closer to the Madonna type, even though these aren't the type of women he wants. And while there can be many reasons for this, I know of one that is quite common, albeit not necessarily politically correct: chicks dig jerks. Seriously. I know that all of us have observed, on many occasions, a woman who expresses interest in a man who, by all accounts, is a fucking asshole. He's treated previous girlfriends like shit, and she's aware of this; he treats most other people like shit, and she's seen him do it many times; he even kicks dogs and takes babies' toys just for kicks (ok maybe I'm exaggerating now). Despite all this, however, she wants him more than anything else in the world. I see this happen all the time. So if you're not the scum of the Earth, she (and all the other girls who are moderately exciting/interesting) doesn't want anything to do with you. So you're stuck with the Madonnas, and the girls who are generally uninteresting for whatever reason. Many people say "girls like the rebellious type, but she'll grow out of it when she gets older." Bullshit. I've seen women of all ages go for a jerk, even though they know he's a jerk, they know he'll treat them like shit, and then when he does, they're sad as shit that things didn't work out, and they'll try to win him back by doing all sorts of crazy shit. Women can be in their 40's and 50's and still pulling this shit. In the meantime you're stuck on the sidelines, being at best their "safe friend", because you don't have the audacity to beat her up now and then. Now, before anyone writes an angry response and accuses me of saying that all women want to be beaten up, please let me assure you that this isn't what I'm saying. I don't think these women ever enter into these relationships thinking that this guy, who has treated all his other girlfriends like shit, will treat them like shit too. They think it will be different this time. And one time out of every million or so, it will be different. But usually, it's exactly the same. So, all that unsolicited psycho-/socio-mumbo jumbo aside, the million dollar question is what can you, CuddlyWombat, do about it? The answer: change your image. Find a nice line in between your usual conservative self, and a badass. I don't mean that you should kick the shit out of somebody every once in a while, but it probably wouldn't hurt to look like you just might. For different people this will mean different things; for some guys it's getting an earring or a tattoo. For others it's wearing tattered blue jeans. Still others, growing a beard, or leaving stubble on your face. Or maybe just cursing more. But find something, that still fits who you are, but can also lend itself to causing people to think, "hey, he just might be a little dangerous". It sounds stupid, it sounds like it couldn't possibly work, but try it and see. I bet it will. Now, back to Kat. The reason I don't want to get married is because I don't see the point. I am infinitely different from who I was just five years ago, and me from five years ago was infinitely different from my same self five years before that. And I'm not that young. I'm interested in completely different things, and people. I just can't see this not being the case five years from now. And five years from then. etc. So why would I assume that I could find one person who would be my perfect partner for life? I just don't see it. It sounds unnatural to me, and maybe even a little crazy. [edit: typo] Edited by - killbillvol69 on 8/6/2008 11:54:43 PM [Link]
Bob All-Star Member 5516 Posts 3/03	Posted - Aug 7 2008 : 2:31AM killbillvol69 wrote: So why would I assume that I could find one person who would be my perfect partner for life? I just don't see it. Click to expand My feeling is that a happy, long-term, romantic partnership has little to do with "finding"; it's much more about "recognizing" and then "nurturing". "Perfection" has nothing to do with it at all. Your beloved partner isn't any more perfect on Day 1 than on Day 10,0000 (and neither, of course, are you) -- you just know them better (and they, you) on Day 10,000. [Link]
Bob All-Star Member 5516 Posts 3/03	Posted - Aug 7 2008 : 2:44AM Kat Slater wrote: Why do men marry the Madonna and whack off to the whore? Or, more aptly... why don't they just marry the "whore?" Click to expand Maybe sometimes we marry a Madonna because we hope that, in an atmosphere of love, honesty, trust, and adventure, she'll ultimately become an unbelievably amazing whore. [Link]
Bob All-Star Member 5516 Posts 3/03	Posted - Aug 7 2008 : 2:51AM Speaking of all this, there's a book I've leafed through recently called, "The Ethical Slut". I love that title! Isn't that what we're all striving for, in our heart of hearts? [Link]
killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18633 Posts 4/08	Posted - Aug 7 2008 : 2:54AM ^That seems like a lot to hope for! Do you know many couples for whom that's worked? As in, the man marries a woman who isn't too into sex, or if she is, she's certainly not much into adventure or nastiness - but then after many years, she's suggesting things that even many porn stars would blush at? And if so, after how many years? Is it worth the wait? I don't know, of course, but I would guess that the Madonna usually doesn't become the whore. I could see her becoming more of a whore than she was at the beginning, of course. That seems natural enough. But I can't see her putting the truly slutty women to shame, even after many years. [Link]
chafed New Member 4 Posts 6/08	Posted - Aug 7 2008 : 3:53AM Interesting topic, and complicated. Toys - I am not a big fan, in life or art/porn. When you're full of desire and want to consume and devour every inch of your beloved's body and soak up all of her textures and smells, it's hard not to regard some dayglo device which smells of rubber or packaging as a ghastly intrusion to the whole aesthetic vibe. Plus, as Kill Bill said, they stay hard forever, don't get cramps in their wrists, etc... The Madonna thing, I think relates to at some stupid competitive, primal, redundant level, you kind of want to possess your partner; own her. You want her to be your domain. You want to know where the fingers that cooked your dinner were spent the afternoon, and hope it wasn't up your co-worker's behind. And a million other complex reasons. If you know someone is promiscuous, you'll probably want to wear protection, but that's already a massive slip into non-intimacy and routine for me. I hate condoms. And so is a slutty act - when you get someone naked and have your tongue or fingers in them and then they come out with some porn movie dirty talk 101, there have been occasions where that's dampened the excitement for me; it's like, wow, you can't believe your luck in having go this close to this person, and then the whole electricity and uniqueness of the situation suddenly becomes this banal, familiar porn scene you've watched a hundred times. Again though, this whole topic area interesting and I imagine very hard to make a porn film around because it's so much based around some deep and understandable insecurities for a lot of us (men). It's about psychosexuality, not visual signifiers. Put it another way: if someone said, I am going to make a porn film about issues of sexiness and redundancy that women grapple with, would that be sexy? The real Madonna, I doubt she's very interested in sex, except as a tool, at all. [Link]

Bob All-Star Member 5516 Posts 3/03	Posted - Aug 7 2008 : 5:58AM killbillvol69 wrote: That seems like a lot to hope for! Do you know many couples for whom that's worked? Click to expand To varying degrees, yes. As in, the man marries a woman who isn't too into sex . . . Click to expand This isn't what I was thinking of when I was thinking of "Madonna". . . . or if she is, she's certainly not much into adventure or nastiness . . . Click to expand Sure -- I think women (like men, but maybe more so in some ways) grow into their sexuality. . . . but then after many years, she's suggesting things that even many porn stars would blush at? Click to expand I don't know what this means. Many civilians like sex a lot more, and are much more adventurous, than many porn stars. And if so, after how many years? Is it worth the wait? Click to expand It all depends on what you want most of out life and love, I think. I don't know, of course, but I would guess that the Madonna usually doesn't become the whore. Click to expand I think you make a mistake if you re-ify these abstractions overmuch. I could see her becoming more of a whore than she was at the beginning, of course. That seems natural enough. But I can't see her putting the truly slutty women to shame, even after many years. Click to expand "Shame" is an interesting word here. Shame is, of course, the main obstacle to releasing one's inner slut. [Link]
Cuddly Wombat Senior Member Just another bare bum in the shiower 1739 Posts 12/04	Posted - Aug 7 2008 : 10:00AM This is all excellent free therapy. Short of joining a rock band or developing a bad-ass alter ego that goes out late at night dressed in black rubber and beats the crap out of clowns and bangs cat-suited whores on building tops and in alley-ways, I think I probably just need to develop a more openly sexual persona - and shove a big sock down the front of my pants. [Link]
killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18633 Posts 4/08	Posted - Aug 7 2008 : 12:07PM @Bob. Thanks for your response. I have a feeling we're looking/have looked for very different things from our romantic partnerships in life. But I think I see where you're coming from. I think perhaps some of what chafed said in the post above yours maybe highlights for me some of the "advantages" of being with the Madonna - if those are the kinds of things one is concerned about. There are probably many men who feel it would ruin the intimacy if their woman is just as intimate (sexually speaking, if not romantically) with many others. Further, which I don't think has been mentioned so far in this thread, it might be desirable for many men to be, in some sense, the "teacher" or "sexual awakener" for their partner. It's possible to see this as egotistical, but it could just as easily be a comfort thing, a means of assuring oneself that if she hasn't "learned" facts X, Y and Z about sex yet, then there's a good chance she hasn't been with too many other men, and also won't want to be with too many others in the future. @Cuddly Wombat: I'm guessing you've seen The Dark Knight recently, and have Batman on the brain. I saw it too, it was awesome! But I'd suggest against sticking a sock down your pants... people hate false advertising! [Link]
Bob All-Star Member 5516 Posts 3/03	Posted - Aug 7 2008 : 2:51PM Another thought from a twenty-year veteran of the marriage wars (stand-offs, truces, peaces, and halcyon times): A very smart person I know once told me that marriage is primarily a vehicle for self-improvement, much less so for self-satisfaction. Also, that the person in the relationship whom I should be striving to perfect is myself, not my partner. The movement toward my self-perfection (well, only personal growth, really), comes from the dialectical relationship that two people can have with each other: Conflict, the creative resolution of conflict, and the knowing acceptance of a certain amount of unresolvable conflict. In the friction and frisson between my partner and myself, my rougher edges are hopefully sanded off and I'm polished to a finer gleam. [Link]
killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18633 Posts 4/08	Posted - Aug 7 2008 : 3:31PM Bob wrote: Another thought from a twenty-year veteran of the marriage wars (stand-offs, truces, peaces, and halcyon times): Click to expand First of all, Bob, I have to say that twenty years is impressive, in this or any other era. Many couples find their differences to be irreconcilable (whether they really are or not is another conversation) long before the twenty-year mark. But I'm not sure that I want to fight a war. I fight enough wars in all other areas of my life. To come home - the one place where I have a chance of relaxing, and healing - to a hostile environment, is simply too draining. I've never been married, but I did live with a partner for a while, and I certainly found this to be the worst aspect of the situation. A very smart person I know once told me that marriage is primarily a vehicle for self-improvement, much less so for self-satisfaction. Also, that the person in the relationship whom I should be striving to perfect is myself, not my partner. Click to expand This person does indeed sound very smart. I know many couples who could have benefited from both of these pieces of advice. Far too often people get hung up on trying to change the person they're with to make them more of the ideal partner, and far too often that ends in disappointment. I myself have been in a relationship where my partner tried to change me in many very profound ways, and while initially I was attempting to change in order to please her, in the end what she was asking of me was just too different from who I am in order to make it happen. I also recently spent six weeks on the west coast visiting my best friend and her new husband, and had many conversations with her in which I warned her not to make this same mistake, as she tends to be a bit of a control freak, and I could see already that she was trying to change him in ways with which he wasn't comfortable. But what do you do if the person you require as a partner, and the person you have as a partner, are too far from one another? Or, perhaps I should word the question as such: Is there something you can do in this situation? Or is this the point when the two people have to realize that it's time to go their separate ways? Or, is this where the notion of marriage as "a vehicle for self-improvement" comes in, and you should try to change yourself so that the person you require is the person you already have? I know there are many questions here, some of which may not have concrete answers, but this is meant to be a discussion as much as it is me asking the advice of others. Anyone can chime in and ask, answer or simply contribute at will. Finally, Bob, given that you've been married for twenty years, I'm going to have to assume that you're older than I am (I'm in my early thirties), and as such I'll give you the benefit of experience on much of this. I'm old enough now to know that with each year I learn many new things about myself and the world around me, and so I don't make absolute claims nearly as much as I used to. Where I used to say "I will never get married", I now say "I have no desire to be married", recognizing that in the future, it's possible that this desire will change. [Link]
Bob All-Star Member 5516 Posts 3/03	Posted - Aug 7 2008 : 4:48PM killbillvol69 wrote: Many couples find their differences to be irreconcilable (whether they really are or not is another conversation). Click to expand IMO, this is the most important conversation. Some people have irreconcilable differences that are too fundamental to resolve or cope with. One question is whether the differences were there from the beginning and either weren't recognized or were recognized but were nonetheless ignored/denied/suppressed. Another question, in terms of any successive relationship, is whether one will continue to make the same bad choices and repeat the same bad behaviors. But I'm not sure that I want to fight a war. Click to expand The reference to "a war" was figurative, even in the emotional sense. But an intimate relationship, once it passes beyond the initial excitement of surface attraction and novelty, does require a lot of effort and even struggle. But most things worth accomplishing do. But what do you do if the person you require as a partner, and the person you have as a partner, are too far from one another? Or, perhaps I should word the question as such: Is there something you can do in this situation? Or is this the point when the two people have to realize that it's time to go their separate ways? Click to expand There are no easy answers. Every situation is different. A lot depends on the balancing act in your own heart. How much do you love her? How much commitment do you feel to each other? How much have you built together? What would you like the story of your life to be at the end of things? How are hard are you trying to make it work and how hard do you perceive that she's trying? How much that's vital and irreplaceable in that relationship will be lost? And what will be there be in its place for you? Or, is this where the notion of marriage as "a vehicle for self-improvement" comes in, and you should try to change yourself so that the person you require is the person you already have? Click to expand To me, self-improvement doesn't mean that. It's not about changing yourself to please your partner or avoid conflict with them. It's more about learning to see people and things more clearly, trying to listen openly rather than defensively, examining yourself more honestly, rigorously, searchingly. You strive to change yourself in ways that you think you should, on your own terms, because they're healthy and good changes. That doesn't involve disowning yourself or giving yourself away -- it should mean "becoming more" yourself. Finally, Bob, given that you've been married for twenty years, I'm going to have to assume that you're older than I am (I'm in my early thirties). Click to expand I'm in my late forties. But don't defer to my views on that account. I'm as likely to fuck up as the next person. -------------------- Edited by - bob on 8/8/2008 3:38:18 PM [Link]
Bob All-Star Member 5516 Posts 3/03	Posted - Aug 7 2008 : 7:59PM Regarding Madonna/Whore specifically, I'm honestly not sure that there are many adult men who conceptualize things that way in this day and age in the Western World. Do many guys find a "Madonna as pure-and-chaste" even mildly attractive, much less a sought-after marriage partner? I doubt it. However, most sane guys are very likely to find a "Madonna as kind-smart-ethical" incredibly attractive. And any guy who believes that there's a conflict between kind-smart-ethical and beautiful-horny-adventurous just hasn't quite outgrown his pampers yet. The above is just a restatement of what Pagoda has already suggested: Most men want to marry a "slut", but they want her to be a "selective" slut not an "indiscriminate" one. [Link]
Kat Slater Member 22 Posts 8/08	Posted - Aug 8 2008 : 11:36AM Awesome stuff you guys! I really appreciate all your honesty. Bob, It sounds like those 40some years were worth of penny of "war-time." So, it sounds like we all agree... you can't change people. Men try to do the same thing with "the teacher." And women are always trying to pull "the make-over." Yup, doesn't work either way. Honesty, honesty, honesty. Cuddly Womabat, it probably all comes down to what really attracts both sexes... self-confidence. I think when a girl is younger, she sees the guys throwing his "package" around as having self-confidence. But, as she gets older, she realizes most of these men are not self-confident at all... in fact have to do this because they are insecure. Real self-confidence can be terribly sexy. Think a sock may just disappoint her. Killbillvol69, toys don't replace a hard cock, because they still have yet to clone the penis, and the strong shoulders that usually come with that, etc, etc. I think it's sometimes easier for a woman to cum on her own, because she doesn't feel as self-aware. I think many times women feel a need to please their man, and the very real question even for today... how "whorish" can a girl be in bed with a man? As pointed out in the thread, often a man likes to be "the teacher" and feels more comfortable if the girl is still working out her alphabet. I know I didn't hit my sexual peak until 30, and I've read a woman actually "peaks" at the same age as men... adolescence due to hormones kicking-in. But, around 30 a girl starts to allow herself to really explore sex. I did find that to be the case. I have been "the good slut" kind, though, also having had the opportunity to explore and understand through porn. I did find it interesting that just because I was a female pornographer, my boyfriends thought I was supposed to be some sex-crazed vixen genius. But, because of this, I was allowed to push myself with my partner... allowed to be into whatever really turned ME on. However, there have been men in my life, who have told me because of this they felt emasculated. And even though this could be blown off as men needing to get out of their diapers, i can understand how this can be a very real issue for a man. Hmmm... maybe all comes back to self-confidence for both sexes. [Link]
Pagoda Senior Member Thread Killer 1747 Posts 10/05	Posted - Aug 8 2008 : 8:18PM Wow, this thread has gotten interesting! One thing we've yet to explore is the harsh judgment women heap on themselves, and on other women. I'm guilty of that. I was a self-imposed "Madonna" until I was 32. Not only did I condemn my own fantasies, but I condemned other women for living out theirs. I'm sure I'm not the only one who did so, either. I didn't see promiscuity or even inhibition within a relationship as sexual exploration. I saw it as a weakness, a lack of self-control. Women who pursued their baser urges were pitiful in my eyes. Thing is, I was a hypocrite. I had the same fantasies. I just kept them to myself. I was prudish with my husband, and then I thought up all kinds of nasty scenarios in my head when I gave myself "me time." It's very difficult to shed one's inhibitions, especially when they're self-imposed. We want our loved ones to think the best of us, and because most women view hedonism in a negative light, they clam up. Conversely, a lot of women seek situations in which they can blame their base behavior on something else. I was drunk. I was on vacation. I couldn't resist him; he was overwhelming. Blah, blah, blah. They want to be able to claim a momentary lapse in judgment, or they want the choice to be taken out of their hands, or they don't want to face the consequences. How many of us have female friends that have gone on vacation and fucked every guy they met? How many of us have female friends that have done the nastiest stuff when they were drunk? And how many of us have female friends that gravitate to controlling, macho assholes? There's a reason for all of this. We don't give ourselves permission to be who and what we are 24/7. We all put on these "roles" throughout our days. We present ourselves different ways at different times. We're the responsible business woman at work. We're the loving, nurturing mother at home, and we're the dutiful wife in bed. It takes a certain set of circumstances, for a woman to roll her sexuality into all aspects of herself. Most of us turn it off the majority of the time, and some of us have a hard time flipping the switch and turning it back on when the time is convenient. The trick is to be aware of your feminine sexuality at all times, even when you're preparing dinner for your family, tucking your children in to bed, or spending 40 hours a week in a cubicle. We don't have the advantage of testosterone demanding that we think about sex at regular intervals. We can go for long periods of time without it ever crossing our minds. Our minds are too busy with other things, and we don't have the chemical mechanism that has the power to drive out all the very non-sexy stuff we have bombarding our brains. That's why we crumble when we're drunk. That's why we go berserk on vacation, and why we seek out men who make us think about sex. In addition to the biological differences between men and women, I think women often project their own judgment onto the men around them. They feel ashamed of their sexual needs, so they assume the man will find her somehow unworthy in other areas of femininity. They know that other women would judge them harshly for their behavior, so why wouldn't men? There's a reason why women fantasize about fucking a total stranger. They don't want to be judged after the fact. They want permission to do all the kinky things they've ever imagined, as long as nobody else will ever know about it. That's self-imposed repression, and most women suffer from it. On the subject of marriage: Marriage is an institution. It carries with it centuries of tradition and expectation. It's hard to find a partner who's willing to create a marriage strictly on its own, individual terms. But people are able to do it. There are many open marriages. There are many husbands and wives who swing. There are marriages in which the man and woman have agreed to bind themselves together legally and spiritually, to live out their days together and to raise their children together, and to deviate from sexual norms. Very few marriages begin this way, and that's why you see most swingers joining the lifestyle long into their marriages. It takes time to build that kind of trust, to cement the relationship, before you can invite others into it with the firm knowledge that your spouse's heart is yours. Back on the subject of sex toys, there are women who choose them over sex with men at any given time. Some women simply don't want to be in a relationship at all. They use their toys as tools to relieve sexual frustration and to have a bit of sexual fun by themselves. Others are single and smart enough not to go out and find a random man to fuck simply because they're horny. Think of all the dangers that exist for women alone in this world. Just because a woman can go to a bar and not leave alone doesn't mean she should. Who knows what could happen to her? Any number of terrible, unthinkable things. That's a huge risk to one's personal safety, and last a heard, no woman was ever tied up, tortured, raped and dumped in the woods left for dead by her vibrator. Or impregnated by it. Or infected by it. Sex toys can serve a valuable purpose within a good sexual relationship. They can enhance sexual pleasure for the woman, and if the man gets off on seeing his woman orgasm, it can be the sexual equivalent to him holding a video game controller. What happens when he pushes this button? How about this one? Muwahaha! And men need to stop centering their entire sexuality on their cocks. What about men who are paralyzed, or have survived prostate cancer? Are they just going to give up on sex because their dicks no longer work? Many do. The smart ones, the humble ones, find new definitions of sex. They start over. They incorporate other parts of their body, and even technology, into their sexual relationships. Don't wait until catastrophe befalls you to embrace sex toys. I'm rambling now. It's time to let somebody else post. [Link]
Pagoda Senior Member Thread Killer 1747 Posts 10/05	Posted - Aug 8 2008 : 8:30PM Kat Slater wrote: I did find it interesting that just because I was a female pornographer, my boyfriends thought I was supposed to be some sex-crazed vixen genius. Click to expand Kat, I find that a lot of people think this about me, and I just sell porn over the counter. [Link]

Bob All-Star Member 5516 Posts 3/03	Posted - Aug 8 2008 : 10:23PM Kat Slater wrote: I did find it interesting that just because I was a female pornographer, my boyfriends thought I was supposed to be some sex-crazed vixen genius. But, because of this, I was allowed to push myself with my partner... allowed to be into whatever really turned ME on. However, there have been men in my life, who have told me because of this they felt emasculated. And even though this could be blown off as men needing to get out of their diapers, i can understand how this can be a very real issue for a man. Hmmm... maybe all comes back to self-confidence for both sexes. Click to expand I think you're absolutely right: It does come down to self-confidence -- not the showy swagger that often passes for it, but the simple, unaffected, real deal. [Link]
Bob All-Star Member 5516 Posts 3/03	Posted - Aug 8 2008 : 10:25PM Pagoda wrote: I'm rambling now. It's time to let somebody else post. Click to expand You do good ramble, Pagoda. Keep it coming! [Link]
Bob All-Star Member 5516 Posts 3/03	Posted - Aug 9 2008 : 12:10AM Pagoda wrote: And how many of us have female friends that gravitate to controlling, macho assholes? . . . It takes a certain set of circumstances, for a woman to roll her sexuality into all aspects of herself. . . . Our minds are too busy with other things, and we don't have the chemical mechanism that has the power to drive out all the very non-sexy stuff we have bombarding our brains. That's why we crumble when we're drunk. That's why we go berserk on vacation, and why we seek out men who make us think about sex. Click to expand Compelling observations. [Link]
jackdore Member 512 Posts 6/16	Posted - May 6 2020 : 3:03PM Just to express my appreciation of the porn movies Kat Slater directed in the earlier years of the century. She was one of the very few women directors and had some original ideas. In one movie she interviewed the stars and then just inserted a hand into the scene every now and then to help things along. It was very effective. I wonder if she has any remaining interest in the industry? [Link]