^ Anything sunstantiated ? No doubt instances of rape occur in the porn biz just like in other walks of life but similarly there are also instances where girls who make poor decisions find it easier to make unjustified rape allegations rather than accept responsibility for their own poor decision making. I know of one unsubstantiated rape claim against Max that involved medical testing and when the medical tests went in Max's favour the girl then accused the medics of being corrupt so while i dont discount rape occuring i take such allegations with a healthy dose of sceptisism. Suggesting someone is a rapist isnt something that should be done glibly, even regurgitating unsubstatiated claims is something i would shy away from so until i hear your substantiation i will not comment further.
Lol. I said "according to two performers." So, Rebecca Linares and Roxy Jezel both said that what happened constituted rape. Substantiated by testimony. I see no problem with pointing out what two people reported. You're entitled to be skeptical.
But important nonetheless. I kept my daughter off the pole (at least I like to think I helped) by talking to her as if she were a young adult, not as a kid. I noticed two things: she understood a *lot* more than I thought she would, and even though she gives me that dismissive expression, she was actually listening and got the message (I heard her repeating it to friends). I think the key is to just make it clear what values you want to pass to them. Of course your kids have their own ideas, but if you don't even try to be the largest influence on them, someone/something else will, and it may not have their best interests at heart the way the unconditional love of a parent does. I know there's no way I can isolate her from the world, I can only give her a candle and a compass.
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Oct 11 2015 : 7:25AM
I think it's safe to say those who hold 'whores' in contempt are misogynists. Certainly that contempt is the defining characteristic of those who violently assault prostitutes in real life, according to the stories of prostitutes themselves. As to 'comedy style' I don't think the humour in FA scenes carries any suggestion of a put-on, it is more part of the cruelty of the scene. Similar to Tusion it is the verbal mockery and abuse that attempts to make the scene 'extreme.' Usually the actual acts are no more extreme than what one would see in a scene by early Mason, Rocco, Jake Malone or other Evil Angel directors, it is more a question of tone and of course intent.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Oct 11 2015 : 8:49AM
^ Ok - so if contempt for whores equates to misogeny does (for example) contempt for clergymen equate to misandry. In other words does prejudice against any section of the population of either men or women automatically extrapolate to a general aversion to that sex in general - i dont necessarily think it does. Its is possible that some people have for whatever reason a specific prejudice against whores or clergymen that in no way corresponds to a general aversion to women or men. (that does not equate to misogny/misandry) It is therefore not safe to make such assumptions. And re "that contempt is the defining characteristic of those who violently assault prostitutes in real life" That is just the same as saying "the contempt for clergymen is the defining characteristic of those who violently assault clergymen in real life" It does not necessarily equate to a general hatred of all women or all men. It translates as a specific contempt not a general one. Its just about the valid use of the word - it seems to be current fashion these days to call any man to looks sideways at a womean a misogenist which is a misuse of the word.
When you compare being a "whore" with being a clergyman, it seems your saying "whore" is just a subset of women and contempt for them shouldn't be equated with hatred of all women. I think what you're missing is that a lot of people regard words like whore and sluts as a words used to vilify women's sexuality in general and that they represent a societal double standard. Men who are sexually promiscuous are lauded as players; women who are get relegated to the gutter and labeled whores. See slut-shaming. All that being said, I'm not sure how I feel about words like slut or whore popping up in porn scenes. Critics have an undeniable point when they single out these words as misogynistic. Yet, I often find it hot. From a logical standpoint I understand why these terms are nonsense. But, I was raised in the social context I was raised in and as a result these words still carry a charge for me. Similarly, I think masturbating to porn is an entirely healthy and commonplace thing. Yet it turns me on during a tease sequence if a girl looks at the camera and calls the audience perverts. I used to agonize over the disparity between my political convictions and my sexual desires. Now I just say, "It is what it is," shrug my shoulders, and accept that my urges aren't governed by logic. Edited by - Mister Fahrenheit on 10/11/2015 1:55:42 PM
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ineedmilf Deactivated User
330 Posts 11/12
Posted - Oct 11 2015 : 4:15PM
@Blacksix-You spoke ky mind.As I've been saying in this thread tones,intentions,passions & inner psyche of male actors & directors matter besides all the degrading acts,verbal assaults,rough treatment & humiliations.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Oct 11 2015 : 4:33PM
@ Mister Fahrenheit & ineedmilf Yes whores are a subset of women. It would be fair to think that in the case of someone who considers all women whores then , given the negative connotations associated with the term whore , that the person likely has misogenist tendencies. However re FA GG that is clearly not the case. Their vitriol is specifically directed at those who might loosely be classifiable as whores. Their is no basis for thinking their contempt goes beyond whores and extends to contempt for all women. And re FA GG we should remember that these performers , both male and female are paid performers acting a certain way to produce a predetermined product. Their is no basis for even thinking that the viewpoints portrayed by the actors (both male and female) are accurate depictions of what they actually beleive. However much their performances might evoke belief in us. You might better argue that the product insofar as it tends towards misogeny might reflect the attitudes of the producers than the performers - but even then there is no solid foundation to assume that someone responsible for producing a product with a semblance of misogny is doing anything other than producing a saleable commodity. Their is no solid basis to assert that they personally have any negative views towards whores and definitely no basis for suggesting they are misogenist and have a wholescale aversion to women in general. Its a safe bet to rather assume they are in most part regular people who go home to wifes and girlfriends and enjoy a joke like the rest of us do. I dont know about tones,intentions,passions & inner psyche but this thread was specifically about Misogeny and i just dont think misogeny is a useful or applicable term to use in this context.
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ineedmilf Deactivated User
330 Posts 11/12
Posted - Oct 11 2015 : 4:44PM
@Ben Mockridge-Soon after conducting numerical,psychological & philosophical analysis of the products(in this case the degrading porn movies),one can label the male actors & directors as misogynists by utilizing inductive & deductive reasoning.Observing their several years of passion & enthusiasm of the guys at FA/GG/LA to degrade women infront of a camera,I think the guys assume every woman on earth as trash as it has become their default habit/attitude through the years.
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ineedmilf Deactivated User
330 Posts 11/12
Posted - Oct 11 2015 : 4:50PM
@Mister Fahrenheit-I too believe that sexual desires,tastes,feelings or emotions transcend logic most of the time. .
I'm not saying it's not true but I just have a very hard time believing that the FA guys go home of an evening and read bedtime stories to their kids or help old ladies with their shopping bags. Theirs is not your typical 'entertainment' product. I can understand how regular 'vanilla' porn might be like punching a ticket to some performers/producers but to make the kind of stuff those guys do...I honestly can't imagine how you could come out with that kind of material unless you truly 'felt' it at gut level. Edited by - N00dlesDaddy on 10/12/2015 2:10:22 AM
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ineedmilf Deactivated User
330 Posts 11/12
Posted - Oct 12 2015 : 3:29AM
@NOOdlesDaddy:Well-said!I fully agree with u'r last statement and I really want everyone(particularly Ben Mockridge) in this thead to emphasize & underline on this statement of yours twice & thrice.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Oct 12 2015 : 5:47AM
@ Noodles. You may be right. But feeling it at gut level , (ie - enjoying sex that degrades . humiliates and physically abuses women) does that in the circumstances that we are discussing equate to misogeny ? And if these are misogenists making a misogenistsic product for consumers with a misogenistic bent then what does that say for the subscribers. That they have a misogenistic bent ? For me that is a non - issue because i dont feel it is misogenistic (as i have explained at some length) but i wonder how consumers who do think it is misgenistic then reconcile watching it to themselves. Are women who enjoy watching boxing misandrists - not necessarily. There are motivations for performing , producing or watching this type of stuff that dont make an automatic diagnosis of misogeny correct.
Yeah. I mean, one of the sites is called "Men In Pain". Try to imagine a site called "Women In Pain". I bet many people would say it's one of the most misogynist possible names for a site. I find some sites too degrading for my taste, but I believe in individual freedom and couldn't care less what two or more consenting adults do to each other, with or without money involved.
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ineedmilf Deactivated User
330 Posts 11/12
Posted - Oct 12 2015 : 9:04AM
@Ben Mockridge-U make sounding analogies & well-analyzed insightful arguments.I've learnt from u'r opinions a lot so far except one thing;u consider the core tool of evaluation to assume one as a misogynist-the psychological perspective, as useless & totally insignificant as u cofirmed in one of u'r replies above;u deliberately skip tones,intentions,psyches & inclinations of performers & producers before,during & after the actual acts of degradation & recorded humiliations of the starlets("acting whores" u can say-lol).
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Foobachi Deactivated User
251 Posts 4/13
Posted - Oct 12 2015 : 9:51AM
MOD: Don't be an asshole. Some of the members here aren't native English speakers. Until you can fluently write and speak every language don't put others down. Edited by - flash on 10/12/2015 2:10:07 PM
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Oct 12 2015 : 10:45AM
@ ineedmilf Your assertion that these individuals have an aversion towards all women amounting to misogeny based on your own personal evaluation of the psychological perspective is a leap of faith i find difficult to give credence to. Unless you can elaborate. As an earlier poster said -
The woman's story doesn't ever matter, according to them she is ALWAYS stupid, unattractive, and worthless? It's either a tremendous coincidence, or they're trying to be cruel. Nina Hartley on FA? She'd be stupid, unattractive and worthless. Dana Vespoli in FA? You guessed it.
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ineedmilf Deactivated User
330 Posts 11/12
Posted - Oct 12 2015 : 3:03PM
@a9nostic-I don't think Nina Hartley & Dana Vaspoli will show up to a FA studio even if they are each offered a million dollar pay check from the producer let alone receive all that humiliation for just around 1500 $.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Oct 12 2015 : 3:32PM
Ok to clarify - they critiscise the girls who appear for them for debasing themselves by being whores, trickin, etc etc. And no doubt they would give the same treatment to Nina Hartley & Dana Vaspoli or anyone else willing to degrade themselves for money. While they critiscise these errant girls , they do not and there is no suggestion that they extend this contempt towards all women , indeed the fact that they expressely critscise the girls for becoming whores logicaly suggests that they have no issue with girls who arnt whores and are unwilling to enter their studio. Misogeny is a general hatred of women - so lets resolve this once and for all , can anyone reference a FA GG quote where they make a generic general contemptuous offensive remark towards womenkind in general. That means a comment like "all women are whores " not "you are a whore" directed at a specific girl. A general remark would indicate misogeny, critiscising specific girls dosnt. Until anyone can offer such substance the accusations of a general aversion to women is unfounded and the accusation of misogeny also unfounded. I am open to change my opinion if the evidence is there but personally in all the stuff ive watched ive never witnessed a remark that is directed at denigrating woman kind in general.
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ineedmilf Deactivated User
330 Posts 11/12
Posted - Oct 12 2015 : 3:50PM
@Ben Mockridge-Let me give you an instant from a Facial Abuse scene and u will then judge the guys as to whether they are misogynists or not: The movie I'm refering to is Sky Haven's,a milf in her mid or late 40s-for me it's the roughest scene in porn history.The interviewer starts by making a harsh mockery of her old age,"U are just a trash old whore.don't trick our viewers by acting as young old scumbag..."(it's not word for word).He then presents an offer to rate her nastyness & filthyness in a scale 1 to 10.He then asks her about her 2 failed marriages & how her husbands mistreated her.After her reply he proceeds saying, " we are unlucky that u are still alive after those chockings & punchings by u'r ex..." .Frem his tone it seems that her very exisistence as a woman sickens him.He then orders his two youngsters,"I don't know how much viagra u need to fuck the shit out of this old slut as she has no limits...".Upon his orders,the youngsters spat on her countless times,they throat fuck her till she pukes & vomits everything in her abdomen,at one moment they made her swallow her puke & vomit from the bow...I've seen the 47-minutes-long edited version but it is easy to guess that the milf has hosted more extreme savagery treatments as there are so many cuts & interruptions in the movie.Do u think these guys have a slant of humanity towards women through all these years?
^ Are the male performers for Facial Abuse whores and do they refer to themselves as such in scenes for the site?
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ineedmilf Deactivated User
330 Posts 11/12
Posted - Oct 12 2015 : 5:56PM
@Ben Mockridge-Expecting that hate mongering statement on the whole female sex upfront & straightforward from a hardcore porn seems a bit childish.No one with a rudimentary knowledge of human rights doesn't want to end up in jail on allegations of hate speech by doing that in a porn movie.How can a well-informed & articulate mature person like u expect an assault that says ,"All women are whores/sluts/hookers/bithes/tarts" from a male actor or producer in a porn movie so as to validate the term "misogyny"? Either induction,deduction or extrapolation is enough along with some sounding analysis.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Oct 13 2015 : 1:14AM
From a similar thread but I think it's worth repeating here:If you're inferring things about real people based on fake performances on a porn set you're doing it wrong.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Oct 13 2015 : 4:58AM
@ Murdoch yes thats something that ive touched on. Its improper to impose motivations and personality traits on actors and producers performing to produce a certain product. I think such an arguement as inneedmilf is seeking to make is better argued that the product itself has a certain semblance of misogy and logically might appeal to misogenists. At the same time you could Just as equally say GG might appeal to guys who like black chicks who give good head - which is the reason i started watching gg. @ineedmilf - for sure they were nasty to Sky Haven , for sure they have been similarly nasty to countless other girls. I appreciate that you find it abhorent. It might be fucked up , wrong , extreme , call it what you will but it does not equate to misogeny, a general hatred of women. (because serially castigating whores for being whores does not equate to misogeny.) It may be syptomatic of the possibility of a wider aversion of all women amounting to misogeny but a doctor does not diagnose cancer just because he sees a lump. Indeed the FA GG guys focus seems to be pretty well fixed on whores with no evidence that you have offered that they have any more extensive problem with women in general. There is nothing to suggest that this attitude extends beyond the vilification of paid up porn stars . whores , porn girls , sluts etc etc call them what you will. I think you need to accept that its abuse (either real or acted) of porn girls - not women in general. Induction, deduction or extrapolation need to be excercised responsibly and with caution based on sound evidence - 5 years working in a abatoir does not necessarily mean you hate cattle.
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ineedmilf Deactivated User
330 Posts 11/12
Posted - Oct 13 2015 : 5:22AM
@murdock-I disagree with u in our context.The sex is real,the pre sex dialogues are real,the stories the victims talk about their previous lives during the interview are all real(nothing scripted),all that degradations & insults are real...U'r claim that porn is all acting & performance is only valid for those feature film like productions of Vivid,VCA,Brazzers(the now defunct Pornstar Punishment series-they put a disclaimer that the scenes u gonna watch are fictious) ...And there are so many Live hardcore porn shoots that invalidate & disprove the post u linked.
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ineedmilf Deactivated User
330 Posts 11/12
Posted - Oct 13 2015 : 5:22AM
@murdock-I disagree with u in our context.The sex is real,the pre sex dialogues are real,the stories the victims talk about their previous lives during the interview are all real(nothing scripted),all that degradations & insults are real...U'r claim that porn is all acting & performance is only valid for those feature film like productions of Vivid,VCA,Brazzers(the now defunct Pornstar Punishment series-they put a disclaimer that the scenes u gonna watch are fictious) ...And there are so many Live hardcore porn shoots that invalidate & disprove the post u linked.
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ineedmilf Deactivated User
330 Posts 11/12
Posted - Oct 13 2015 : 10:02AM
@Ben Mockridge-Logic accepted!I can't agree more.Tnx so much to clearing my somewhat biased & long-held attitude towards the subject.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Oct 13 2015 : 12:06PM
That's an assumption on your part.Are they? If Bootleg, for example, calls a performer a "dumb whore" in a scene, how do you know he's not acting? Are you a friend of his? A frequent visitor to the set? Do you know a lot of the women who have worked with him? Or, rather than any of that, are you just assuming again.There is no acting or performance in gonzo scenes?
So we've established that the FA/GG/LA scenes are, in fact, 100% staged and not to be taken in any way seriously. Now I am confused; I genuinely don't know whether to feel disappointed or not.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Oct 13 2015 : 3:26PM
^My own opinion is that we don't really know to what extent those scenes are, in general, staged, scripted, or "real." That opens up a larger question of how "real" gonzo is in general anyway.
^ Right. This is why I brought up WWE. Is that real? Yes and no. Sure, things are staged, but you best believe they are putting their bodies through the ringer. Some people have died. So, saying WWE is "fake" doesn't seem sufficient. With FA, judging by some performer descriptions, experiences vary in terms of how prepared and clued in the women felt. Some felt deceived, others didn't enjoy it but knew what they were getting into and understood it as a constructed performance (one of the women on Hot Girls Wanted stated this - she was clear that, while she may not like the content, it's really not as rough as it looks. It's a show), and still others either enjoyed it or didn't care one way or the other. One additional point - just because someone goes back a second time, does not equate to having enjoyed the experience. It seems as though a lot of people analyzing motives and behaviours haven't thought about the complicated decisions we all make in navigating our work lives. In fact, I think a lot of people seem to misunderstand that porn is indeed work. Acknowledging this would go a long way toward demystifying what you see on screen.
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ineedmilf Deactivated User
330 Posts 11/12
Posted - Oct 13 2015 : 3:55PM
@misspornUSA & NOOdlesDaddy-Had it been all acting,Max Hardcore,Extreme associates,Khan Tusion & JM productions wouldn't have been victims of obscenity charges just like Hollywood men producing thriller/horror or cannibalist movies;Alex Devine wouldn't have accused Steven French of real punch wounds on her head in the movie Donkey Punch.Had it all been acting,we wouldn't have watched most of the girls at FA,GG,LA & Meatholes shocked,flabbergasted,distressed,demoralized & eyes filled with tears.Above all, how can one assume the idea of acting in brutal porn movies which are transmitted live to online viewers?
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Oct 13 2015 : 5:05PM
What precisely was considered obscene in those cases? I think that you need to go and look at the specific charges in those cases, which apparently you are unfamiliar with.She didn't expect that to happen. Why not?
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Oct 13 2015 : 5:12PM
It's not a question of these scenes being entirely staged or entirely "real," and we need to ask ourselves what "real" even means in the context of a porn scene.If it's live, it can't be acting or a performance? Why not?
All acting involves the actions and interactions of real people. Obscenity charges in the US are based upon vague rules of community standards. As Justice Potter famously said, "I know it when I see it." Max Hardcore, et al, were prosecuted for distributing material to areas where DA's considered the material to be obscene by their standards. Porn producers lost their cases when juries agreed with the opinion of the DA's. While the defense may have argued that it was all just acting, it really had nothing to do that.
Dude, my last post was tinged with a little bit of sarcasm - sorry you didn't pick up on it. One thing's for sure, those guys at FA do an exceptional job of blurring the line between 'real' and 'fake' - hence this thread being well into its second page with no sign of slowing down. I guess in the case of sites like that you can convince yourself that it's real if you want to - whatever helps you extract the maximum enjoyment.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 8:31AM
Thanks for the enjoyable discussion. Personally i think you would do better making an arguement for cruely or sadism but misogeny because of its wide reaching implications is impossible to make a compelling case for on such limited information. As for how real the abuse is - it is and it isnt real. It is real insofar as the insults are said and the humiliation and abuse occurs. If Bootleg calls a performer a "dumb whore" it is real insofar as it has occured , the words have been spoken and the other performer has heard them irrespective wether it is scripted or not. An actor performing with a library of stock abusive phrases can humiliate and psychologically break someone down , just as interigators/torturers do irl , they do not need to feel it in their gut. It isnt real in the sense that it isnt spontaneous and without limits - its is formulaic and staged and has clear boundaries. The fact that it is formated and contrived is what makes girls agree to it and feel confident enough to endure it and even posture in defiance of their abusers. They know its a set up , theyve spoken to jimmy and the guys off stage , they know its not going to become serious (life threatening) so there is not the same fear that would be present if it was "real" If it was really real and there were no limits execpt the unknown depths of depravity of an unknown abuser then nobody would volunteer. It is the inherant safety aspect to it that also makes it (imho) palatable to watch - if it were real and girls were being abused without limits or choice then that would be unacceptable. As it is it is a mix of pantomime and reality where even girls who dont like it can start crying and call break
^ All 100% correct but as I've previously said, what I find disturbing is that chicks willingly sign up to make porn - be it staged or otherwise - of an incredibly debasing nature, undoubtedly very open to wrongful interpretation and which, while not explicitly saying as much, arguably does womankind absolutely no favours at all. Here's a thought: how many men would sign up to let a gang of female abusers throat-fuck them to vomiting point (with strap-ons) while being slapped around and verbally taunted? Anyone? Edited by - N00dlesDaddy on 10/14/2015 9:50:59 AM
^ Men sign up for other men to do it. Men sign up for electric shock, verbal abuse, and all manner of other things that people would likely perceive as degrading. Men of color sign up for shoots that involve racist and/or racialized language and rhetoric. Edited by - Gore Gore Girl on 10/14/2015 9:53:53 AM
^ Yeah, I'm not talking about gay porn, I'm talking about hetero. This thread is about misogyny. I'm just saying what if the boot was on the other foot?
^ I get you. I think you're asking a similar question to one I was musing over recently: where is the "no limits" man? If porn is all about pushing limits and exploring sexuality then why aren't the male performers interested in doing that? Obviously these are rhetorical questions.
P.S. I wasn't speaking exclusively of gay porn. There is straight porn with extreme or BDSM content where the male performer does "degrading" stuff too but arguably nothing comparable to FA. The answer lies with the consumer.
^ As I'm sure you know, there's male 'humiliation' porn - like the CFNM stuff. Secretly, though (or perhaps not?), I'm betting a lot of guys would be up for that - I know I would. Don't think I'd be as keen on having a dildo rammed into my oesophagus though.
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Oct 14 2015 : 10:19AM
A lot of the GG girls wear afro wigs etc presumably to disguise their identity (preserve their dignity irl). I think i might be willing to suffer the abuse if i could do it annonymously and the paycheque was big enough. More established porn stars obviously do it in open identity but then they are already in the porn biz and im guessing from their perspective once youve made the big step from respectable society to porn going from porn to FA GG is a relatively small step further.
^ Don't girls go into porn expecting to be Jenna Jameson? Surely that's the aspiration? Not kneeling in a puddle of your own vomit and tears with your eyes bugging out on stalks due to the phallus in your windpipe. Oh, the glamour.
