Edited by - Zartyr on 10/9/2005 10:07:40 PM

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Iggy Pop

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1) On the word "alternative" in general. Well I've watched a few of those Extreme titles, which feature the edgy "rape" scenes in them, but have yet to see any of the suicide girls stuff. Did those "rape" scenes excite me? Honestly I was afraid they would, but they really didn't do much for me. I watched a trailer for the remake of New Wave Hookers recently, likewise, and it didn't really do anything for me either. So fucking what, exactly? That adjective "alternative" appears to me as just another marketing tool to promote a certain commodity. Pardon my ignorance, I'm sure you have a similar marketing tool, Asian (or select a country from the "Far East") women, etc. TonyC has one as well, the concept of reality (e.g. real people, real and authentic performances). Is it really any different in the long run, no, I don't think so. Just another slogan to sell a product.

That being said, I'm not trying to disrespect you or make some sweeping generalization that you are all "smut merchants" with different slogans and niches, but it's an open market where people can decide what they want to watch or don't want to watch. If I want to see "gothic" women having sex, then I might take a look at that product (hell nipple rings, excessive rings on one's fingers, even women dressed in suits turn me on :), it is a fetish, sue me).

I realize your counter-argument is going to run (maybe :) ) something like this...why have a "meaningless" experience of cookie-cutter porn when there are volumes of "higher" eroticism porn films and experiences? Again, I agree completely, and if I may make a metaphorical argument, (I know you've written some stuff on Asian cinema) it's similar to why watch the latest Lucas film (where things are excessively predictable in the opening few scenes) vs. works you have to think about e.g. something done by...Miike (Gozu and Alien Q, seriously, WTF are those films about? ), Wong Kar Wai, or even some of the works by Zhang Ke Jia (Platform and The World are so Fucking awesome I don't know where to begin!). Hell, toss in Ozu, Mizoguchi, Imamura (who is a Fucking bad ass!) as well as Oshima.

I hate to say it, but it is a problem of trying to change the culture. Isn't is odd that a great tool to acquire knowledge of all things is at one's finger-tips (the internet), yet everyone in everyday life seems so vapid and stupid. I blame it on jamesn and those un-informative articles he destorys in an on-line text (kierkegaard shakes his fist in the air, "fucking savages!"). Things come so easy and prepackaged now-a-days, people don't think anymore...worse yet, and label me as one, there are times when I want my popcorn and want to escape from my 9-to-5.

For example, I really enjoyed the last Star Wars picture, crap to the elitists, yes...but entertaining nonetheless. Yes, I'll admit to having fun these "meaningless experiences" (sometimes I think this is exactly what the paying viewer wants). Hence the old adage, what is supposedly in the public's interest, isn't necessarily in the interest of the public. But dis-information shouldn't be a point and click away (again fuck you jamesn :)! ). All I'm try to say is with the internet, there is so much knowledge at your fingertips, and what do most guy/gals do, they play cards all night (cue the Bach). People don't seem to care, if the answer is only a click away, why look for it in advance? So the need to read the blog and "remove ignorance" I agree with...

2) Suicide girls, I haven't seen there content, but from reading GFY, I hear they treat both their models and the photographers like shit (low fucking pay-outs). I'm surprised that even though things like fisting and piss are considered obscene, these "alternative" group haven't yet tapped that undiscovered country known as "short cuts." Yep, you and TonyC know what I'm talking about, Altman even made a film dealing "somewhat" with the subject. Sex involving little stabs into each others flesh to increase pleasure. I haven't found this in those "alt" pornos "pushing that edge." Too close to the snuff film perhaps? Not that I get off on that, but if these people will exploit any activity for money and are not afraid of legal battles, they seem to be half-stepping yet again (maybe this too is helping your arguement). I know there are guidelines against fisting and urination, but "short cuts," I can't recall seeing a law against that action being on film.

Also, what about my ex-girlfriend's request to use a lighter and burn the back of her calf while she was in the cowgirl position? Where is that exploitive market? Imagine the promotional adjectives "real stabs, real blood, real 3rd degree burns, real people." Absurd yes, and this is actually why I don't want to knock you or TonyC, but an it's an illustration of another marketing ploy or slogan that I think is similar to the "alt" community you so despise. That both you and TonyC haven't gone in this direction, although this exploitation thing might have crossed your minds, is DAMN commendable. As if you'd need a fake nick on a message board to tell you that...

Honestly, I respect both you and TonyC, but personally your contempt, arrogance, and condensation in your messages on this board have prevented me from exploring and enjoying your content. Let it be known that I agree with you both on a far number of points, hell yes Gonzo is the same old shit, but if your attitude is going to be an the same old asshat/elistist nonsense on a message board, as a consumer, I'm not going to look for or buy your product. I'm only one person, and I know both of you are successful (dac I believe you were hired by LFP and I surmise if I viewed a TonyC product, I'd express my "goose-bumps" experiences to his films via e-mail/letter, and I mean that from the bottom of my soul.). Maybe I'm taking your posts all-too-seriously, but as a consumer of a product, it's not always fun to receive the notion "yea, they'll get off on it if they check it out or buy it, but will they understand it (or will they get off on what I was really trying to do)."

This is an attempt at constructive criticism, I'm sure if we had a few beers I'd really dig you both, but sometimes you act like such elitists on this board, as a surfer/member I'd say "Fuck You, to both of you and your product." Again constructive critism, both of you are funny as hell, but I for one won't be bullied into purchases.

Porn can be part of the artistic medium, hell, that's the beauty of the medium of art versus that "king of the hill" discipline know as philosophy. I just wish you both would explain what we are all missing in more posts. All too often you appear like people in a white tower waiting for the masses to react/or get with the "program"...where is the manifesto? If you guys are so brilliant, enlighten us little folk :). I know that sexual intimacy has made my cum fly farer then the "you're such a good whore" mentality (although honestly, that gets me and the woman off just as well), but provide some links that back up your statements besides hiding or deflecting a serious discussion behind humor (like Woody Allen does in providing a REAL presentation of NYC!). Your both funny as hell, but if you both continue to hide, deflect, or say bullshit remarks like "it's too complicated or you can't understand," you're both as much as charlatans as the people your trying to de-fame. Links or hell give us the m.o. on your directorial decisions...have some balls gentlemen or give us links that support your position(s). Give the layman a click-able avatar or clickable sig that illustrates why your product is superior (and honestly, I'm so tired of gonzo I've been actively seeking out other genres). Or hell if you provide that manifesto, links to that in this thread :).

Again, I seriously want to believe in you guys and I think other readers do to, but understand there are readers/members on this board that have never heard of or seen your product before. I wanna do a blind buy or rent your product, but I just haven't been sold yet, convince me why you are not like those who you think you are so much above. Enlighten me :). I'm sorry, but sometimes you both come across as the most arrogant, "holier then thou" people on this board and that is one big reason why I haven't looked into both of your stuff. I'm not saying tone it down, just give reasons why your stuff is better then supposed "avant-guarde" David Lynch rip-offs or films that provide more reality then the Plow the Broke the Plains.

K.

P.S. the whole non-violent vs. violence issue will only extend this post.

P.P.S. You've already picked up a camera and captured images, explain to me why YOUR product is better or more important then "cumshitters" or the more "high-minded" erotic sequences of Ingmar Bergman's "The Silence," or so much more then the "over-raided" autuers making the "alt" porn you frown upon. If you want to break the form of porn or change the culture, just give consumers something other then, they know it's a more "T"rue eroticism when they see it. You both are smarter than that...let the flames fly high, but hopefully it's a better critique then "the garbage man" witticisms that AC comes up with now and then. Have some balls guys, you'll surely find at least one, if not many (as this site is 1:300 members/readers) customer(s). Again, let me know why your product is superior.

P.P.P.S. I hope like this doesn't appear to be a stage where I'm trolling. I think you both have been behind the camera as well as in front of the type-writer thinking about film in general, therefore, you both know (as do I) that two-way street the art of film operates on, if that makes sense...the asethetic side and the creation side...this another reason why I and other customers VALUE your input. It's one thing for a critic never to have stood behind the camera, it's another to have been on both sides.

Zartyr (not to drag you into this :)), Pasonlini is SO underrated, I love his stuff as well...the irony of Salo: 120 Days of Sodomn is that even our bodies have become the ultimate commodity in this world. It is indeed bought and sold for advertising space in this day and age.

Edited by - kierkegaard on 10/10/2005 2:07:06 PM

Edited by - kierkegaard on 10/10/2005 2:21:20 PM

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As for Tony & I, we share much but not everything in common. Though he'll shudder at the term, I think, he's far more the "ivory tower" sort than me, at this point at least ... he's based in NYC & moves among the cultural elite in a way I abdicated when my life's journey plunked me here in the L.A. porn scene. The mersh stuff I do for LFP, btw, doesn't hold a candle to my heartfelt stuff for Madness Pictures (and many of my Video Team titles) -- but that brings me to the hype/manifesto question. You're welcome to check out my old journal @ davidaaronclark.com for a somewhat rounder picture of my personal porn manifesto, though its roots lay in six years of porn criticism for SCREW magazine in the '90s that's not online.

I am canny enough to fully realize that my "charming" persona here actually makes some mutter, "I'm NEVER going to watch one of that asshole's videos no matter what," but frankly, I don't care that much. I'm NOT here to hype or promote my work -- look at my posts, & you'll see that my reasons for being here are hardly the same as those of the Jewel D'Nyle/Skeeter ilk.

I haven't come close to touching on the many issues you raise, but I'll briefly offer my opinion on two more before relinquishing the bully platform for now ....

1. I totally agree with your remarks concerning the lack of authentically non-vanilla sex in the psuedo-goth marketing machines -- as a former colleague of Richard Kern, Eric Kroll, et al, my own early non-commercial forays into porn featured my own sexual interests at the time, which included blood-letting, REAL body-mod (not fucking noserings & tramp-stamps masquerading as manifesto). I'm so MOR now it's pathetic -- but at least when I say I'm delivering up Azn girls, that's what I do, as opposed to faking it.

2. I think Jamesn is pretty hilarious & en pointe most of the time. :)

Finally: Welcome, K., hope to see you posting frequently.

Edited by - dac on 10/10/2005 1:25:16 PM

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K.

P.S. You have great taste in film

Edited by - kierkegaard on 10/10/2005 2:08:22 PM

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Or was it the Henry Rollins Gap ad?

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I think I was gonna say something relevant to porn, too, but I forgot it...

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but I'm following my hart and doing what I want to do.

thats all

dac I'm bummed you fell this way I love your stuff

regardless

I stand b4 you all

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Step 2: Stop calling your work "content".

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& sorry, Eon, nothing personal -- it's the retired porn critic in me. I've stabbed it with my steely knives, but I just can't kill the beast. Or "beest," as you might say.

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I don't see anything wrong with Eon's stuff ... it's really derivative, but the menus are well-designed and I like the graphics studio he hired. Fewer couches per capita. Some kicky chix.

Joe Gallant's NYC videos are more altered, if not alt, I think.

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I think it's about me because it's starts with Neu Wave spelled my way..

thats all

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(Damn, I'm on the rag this week)

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I;m LIVIN' it, man. LIVIN' it!

(sob)

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(822.)

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he he

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