(Sorry if this seems redundundant, in case you have read this before with another "Subject." I'm reposting it here, since it seemed not to attract too much attention last time.)
Most of us know there have been a lot of posts here about edited DVD releases of some of the older classics. Many of us have attempted, through ADT, to convince the studios to at least tell us when their new DVD version has been altered from its original release.
Well, raise a glass to Wit and VCA for being true to their word! Wit vowed that VCA would let us know when something was edited -- well, look closely at the bottom of the back-of-case artwork for their upcoming release of "The Private Afternoons of Pamela Mann," and see for yourself!
I guess burying the "edited" disclaimer on the back of the packaging may be a little more honorable than the misleading disclaimer on the front cover of Barbara Broadcast touting "includes previously censored materials" and "restored from the original masters". If only VCA could release the rights of these great Metzger titles to a distributor who could do these great classic titles the justice they deserve, to be released in their original edits as the director intended. Certainly many of the contemporary titles today contain much of the "objectionable" material that has been edited out of these classics, but do not contain the wit and style of the master, Henry Paris.
Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99
Posted - Sep 4 2001 : 10:06AM
What distributor has done a better job with classics than VCA? VCA puts out quality DVDs. There is no reason for them to put in bold letters on the front of the cover that the movie has been modified - sorry to say, but most people wouldn't know or care that it has been edited. They've made a decision to inform the people who do care and know that it has been edited - do any other studios do this? They listened and they acted. What more can you ask for? I guess you want them to risk prosecution - prosecution that extends beyond the owners of a company, that extends to their employees and families.
While I agree with you that it would be great to have the classics released in their original form, movie making is a business more than it is an art. Practical business concerns have to come first for the art to even exist.
Just want to add... The porn industry is geared toward a mostly uneducated consumer and a very disorganized market. To better the porn industry we all have to help educate and organize the consumer. Greybeard's efforts to educate people about the specifics of edits to classic movies has clearly made some headway. Everyone who's written a review has made a difference. But the vast majority of the porn market is still based on a pretty cover and good marketing.
Good points Steph. I think small print on the back is what's appropriate for that sort of think.
What really lets us know about the effect of edits is a review by someone who has looked at both versions and made careful notes though. Enter, ADT!
However Greybeard, I agree with you that the studios should release films that were shown in theaters in the 70's and early 80's on DVD in as clean and unreedited a fashion as possible on DVD. I'm all for that in a big way!
Other than younger than 18 yr old actresses later discovered who had to be removed (which is a hard federal statutory line in America), what is the nature of this stuff that is often edited out? What criteria? What could be done in the 70's that can't be (or isn't) done now for legal or quasi legal self censorship (to avoid legal battles) reasons?
Any examples of videos or scenes that people had in then but don't dare to put out in a new release now?
Also, Jeff, I'd love some recomendations along the lines of "these great Metzger titles" or works of "the master, Henry Paris", beyond, I gather, Barbara Broadcast. Do you recommend that on video, or only the theater film version?
Jeff: While I agree with you about how objectionable the edits are, Steph is absolutely correct in her comments about porn being a business, not an art, including studios' reluctance to expose themselves to anything like prosecution (read "persecution!"). I'd have to say, though, that VCA is technically correct with their comments on the "Barbara Broadcast" cover. As you'll note if you follow the link below about the edits in this title, C.J. Laing's peeing scene had been completely cut from previous VHS releases, so the DVD did "include previously censored materials." Also, the DVD was, indeed, "restored from the original Masters" -- VCA's original 1-inch videotape Masters, which were used for their first VHS releases of the material.
The problem, really, is more about which "Masters" have survived and in what shape! The original "Masters," of course, are the motion picture negatives, internegatives, printing components and release prints. Originally, video copies of films such as these were made from film release prints to 3/4-inch U-Matic videotape, the best video format available to the fledgling (and underground at that time!) X-rated video industry. VHS copies were made from these 3/4-inch Masters. As the years passed, the original film materials became damaged through use and/or more scarce. Then, later, the best copies that could be found of these same film materials were used by subsequent owners of the video rights (like VCA) to make much higher-quality 1-inch video Masters. By that time, repression and de-facto censorship via threat of prosecution were forcing people like VCA to edit out any scenes felt objectionable (read "actionable"). So, from the original 1-inch Masters were made new, edited Masters from which the new VHS copies were made. Now, flash forward to today. In many cases, the original film materials have deteriorated or simply vanished, either into private collections or the trashcan! The same can be said of the 3/4-inch video Masters, which were usually of very poor quality to begin with. That leaves the Original 1-Inch Masters and the Edited 1-Inch Masters. In many cases, the Original 1-Inch Masters cannot be found, either, because they were filed away somewhere and forgotten, and/or because the companies who now are trying to make DVDs of these films never received anything earlier than the Edited 1-Inch Masters! In effect, their Masters are pre-censored, and no other Masters are available to them! Wit of VCA has admitted that a complete sequence in "Pamela Mann" simply does not appear on the only Master they have! Luckily, in the case of "Barbara Broadcast," VCA was able to return to their Original 1-Inch Master to restore at least some of the previously edited material!
Steph: I owe you a few for your very kind comments! Meanwhile, your points are, as always, right on the money!
Dexplorer: I'll list below a few links you can follow to help you catch up on what has been, as Steph has indicated, a major matter for discussion here. Hope these will help. Also, do a lookup on "Henry Paris" and/or "Radley Metzger" at IAFD for a listing of his classics.
Whenever I get vexed that some classic reissue has been edited or why we Americans can't see Monica Sweetheart swallowing piss like our fortunate European smut brethren I muse that in a perfect world, the companies themselves would issue "collectors edits".
Which means that the "safe" disks would be mass marketed in the usual manner but that if you wanted to get the "real" releases you would have to buy them direct from the company themselve. That way there would be no need for some shop existing in Iowa to feel the need to self censor b/c some DA is bored fighting real crime
Speaking of: has anyone been able to order any of the XXX-imports titles on US workable DVD players?
Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99
Posted - Sep 4 2001 : 6:22PM
So torris, basically you think that more collectors buy golden age titles than regular pornsumers. Even on DVD with the generally very low prices on classic titles? Couldn't bargain hunters looking for plot driven features make up a good portion of the market? How many collectors are out there? It really is too bad that there's no decent market data on the porn industry. How can we really know if it's more collectors or accidental buyers or couple viewers or...?I would guess that you would research the movie before buying it. You would probably read the whole box and see that it has been edited. You don't need big bold wording on the front of the box.greybeard, a few what? ;)
Steph- Anyone who couldn't recognize the choppy, blotched editing of the final 12 minutes of Barbara Broadcast didn't watch the final 12 minutes.
dexplore- What is edited out? The pee scene and the soft S/M scenes of Barbara Broadcast. You should definately check ot the original video versions of Barbara Broadcast and Private Afternoons of Pamela Mann to the view the film as the director intended. They are definitely tame by todays video standards. I would also recommend Metzger's Punishment of Anne and Naked Came The Stranger.
Greybeard- I believe most people purchasing these classics are more interested in film and asthetics.These are not raincoaters. As for Barbara Broadcast, you mentioned the "edited" pee scene was included. The copy I received DID NOT include the actual scene of CJ peeing in the bowl, as was in the original video. When I read "original master"- I took it at face value- just as intended by VCA's marketing team.
Torris- I agree with you on Candy Stripers. It was one of the first videos in my library- and yes, unedited.
XXX-imports wll play on APEX- 600A with no problem. Region Coding can be disabled.
Steph- You seem to have no problem with VCA putting misleading ( to put it politely) statements in big, bold type in order to help sell the product, but have a problem with a statement on the bottom front stating that the dvd has been edited from it's original form. Many consumers purchase their adult dvd's on line. They can not hold the cover in their hands and read front to back. Many of the online stores do not have the option of showing the back cover. VCA could not tell me what previously edited material had been included on the Barbara Broadcast DVD.
Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99
Posted - Sep 5 2001 : 7:45PM
actually i don't have a problem with it. i have a problem with impractical expectations. i have a problem with sneering at a small step as not a big enough step.
Of all of the companies to accuse of having misleading marketing, VCA is pretty low on the list. I think you're confusing them with another company whose name starts with 'V' that never, ever mentioned that DVD releases were significantly edited and who advertises 4 hours of content on each disc.
saki- I did not accuse VCA of anything. Simply stated a fact regarding the packaging on Barbara Broadcast. I buy many VCA titles. They are of high quality and have a great library of classics. I would never put Vivid in the same league. I wouldn't even consider watching a Vivid DVD.
Jeff wrote: As for Barbara Broadcast, you mentioned the "edited" pee scene was included. The copy I received DID NOT include the actual scene of CJ peeing in the bowl, as was in the original video. When I read "original master"- I took it at face value- just as intended by VCA's marketing team.
Jeff: Sorry for any misunderstanding, but I had assumed you knew that C.J.'s peeing scene was completely missing from VCA's VHS releases of "Barbara Broadcast." In those versions, she walks back into the kitchen, sees Wade Nichols, he looks up and sees her, and "lickety split" (pun intended) she's walking over and sitting down next to him! Nothing even remotely suggesting her squatting and peeing appeared. That's why I said VCA was technically correct in their statements -- they did restore part of the previously missing sequence, and to do that, they had to go back to what was their Original Master Materials. (Sure wish they'd left the picture "letterboxed," but that's another matter entirely.)
Jeff wrote: Many consumers purchase their adult dvd's on line. They can not hold the cover in their hands and read front to back. Many of the online stores do not have the option of showing the back cover. VCA could not tell me what previously edited material had been included on the Barbara Broadcast DVD.
Jeff: Here's where I have to say ADT To The Rescue!! This forum has been instrumental in acquiring and disseminating exactly the kind of information that folks like VCA at least now puts in fine print (Yay!) and Vivid hopes we suckers never find out (Boo!). The many excellent reviewers here, along with our growing number of "classic porn" enthusiasts and experts, are our first line of defense before putting our cash on the line. As long as you're willing to wait a short time after a title becomes available, the reviewers and posters here will more than likely be able to tell you what's worth it, what not, and what's been cut! Case in point -- VCA couldn't tell you what was cut/restored from "Barbara Broadcast," but (most humbly) an ADT post did! (See my earlier post's link: Detailed Barbara Broadcast Edits). Same with "Misty Beethoven." (See my earlier post's link: Misty Beethoven Minor Edits). Others have posted similar comparisons and/or lists of what's "in and out" for other films. When all's said and done, we'd rather not have to perform that function -- we'd prefer the original, uncut versions to be available! Alas, ours is not a perfect world, so those of us lucky enough to have access to early versions of some of these classics can at least inform and/or warn our "partners in porn" about what's currently reaching the marketplace. ADT is an excellent place for that to happen!
greybeard- My apologies. When I referred to the VHS of Barbara Broadcast it was to the original 1977 Quality X Video and the 1980 Video X Pix. Both of which are unedited and still of excellent quality. Naturally when I read copy referring to the original master, I refer back to these videos. Sorry for any confuson.
Seeing how there have been many, many threads bashing Vivid, how ADTalk doesn't accept advertising from studios, how most reviews of Vivid product are less than stellar in the database, and how Vivid doesn't participate on the forums given the first three reasons, I think there's little danger of that...
Credit where it's due. I didn't think it would ever happen, but VCA deserve to be congratulated for eventually keeping their word. Let's hope this policy continues and they don't neglect to mention any cuts on future releases.
Of course, I have absolutely no intention of buying any DVDs I know to be censored. Now I'm in the fortunate position of being able to wait for reviews and forum messages to appear, confirming whether a title is uncut, whereas in the early days of DVD I didn't have access to that type of information.
Yes, I think you're right. Alpha Blue Archives should hurry up and start releasing DVDs, because that's where my money's going in future. In the present climate of political correctness, they are the only company with the courage to issue titles like Pretty Peaches uncut on VHS. If we had to rely on VCA, many other classics would be lost forever.
Pamela Mann @ AEBN
Posted - Sep 3 2001 : 12:41PM
