The LA Weekly reports: “We at Vivid applaud his prosecution,” said Vivid Entertainment’s Paul Thomas of Isaacs. Thomas, a veteran film director for Vivid whose porn acting credits stretch back to the 1970s, added, “Freedom of speech carries with it responsibility. It was never intended for there to be videos of people shitting in each other’s faces.” I say: +1.
If you want to watch a video of someone shitting in someone else's mouth, you are clearly a deviant and a freak..... and you're protected by the same constitution that protects the catholic church, NAMBLA and Rush Limbaugh. PT clearly believes that he's an artist, not a pornographer. News Flash - No one watches your movies to see Savannah Samson recite dialogue. Isaacs is probably just another douchebag hiding behind the 1st amendment but thank God the 1st amendment is there for him to hide behind. I'm not sure what degree PT holds in constitutional law that he feels comfortable stating that the bill of rights was "never intended for there to be videos of people shitting in each others faces", but I've actually read the document and I can't find any reference anywhere to deviants with a poo fetish being outside of it's protection. Don't worry PT, someday either the Christians or the Muslims will come for Vivid too despite your engaging storylines and lack of fecal matter. Edited by - mike quasar on 6/20/2008 12:42:30 AM
PT is a douchebag. Only person that gives a shit what he thinks is Steve Hirsch, and I doubt he even cares that much anymore. PT can direct movies with Jenna Jameson that sell tons...wow. Ira Isaacs could direct Jenna taking a shit on PT and that would sell great. What would PT be if he didn't have Vivid behind him and Vivid didn't have AVN in their pocket? Wasn't he the one fucking the girl in Little Girls Blue and he has her pull her tampon out so he can fuck her? Wonder if anyone considers that obscene? But I guess PT 'knows obscenity when he sees it'.
I am still waiting for someone who holds views similar to those of Paul Thomas regarding what is and is not protected by free speech to offer a convincing argument as to why filming certain practices should lead to prosecution and imprisonment. To me, their stance either comes down to: 1. "I don't like it, so it should be banned," 2. "It's dangerous and we need the government to protect us from it," or, 3. "It's the law, and we have to follow it (even if it's unconstitutional)."
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Jun 20 2008 : 2:44PM
It is all protected until someone doesn't like it and turns it over to the authorities. Then if the authorities think they can prosecute it sucessfully, they will. Ira Issacs made his movies. Max Hardcore made his movies. They will now have to stand the test in the court system. I could care less what they make, I choose not to watch it. I think PT is buttsore because Ira Issacs is associated with the adult industry, and before 2 weeks ago no one ever heard of this scumbag. I say scumbag because it is my own personal opinion of him. I saw him speak on TV, he is what people percieve a pornographer to be, when in fact 99 9/10 of us are nothing like that. He can't make a straight porno movie so he shots freaky shit no one will touch. No one will touch it because we know it would get popped. Even if it wouldn't get popped, I would never be associated with making those kind of movies. BTW, I've known PT for 20 years and he is one of the best people I know. He is an artist and quite good at what he does. He has probably won more awards for his films than anyone else in this business. I wouldn't dismiss or bad rap him so quicky. He has done cutting edge porn for many years.
+10 I talked to him for a little bit at this past year's AVN and he was pretty cocky but at the same time, real artist or not, at least he has plots and does get Savannah to say more things than "fuck me with your hot cock" and the like.
My point was that just because PT shoots movies which he believes have redeeming value, he shouldn't be taking the high road when religious zealots seek to do an end-run around the constitution and put us ALL in jail and out of business. Applauding the prosecution of anyone, even dirtbags like Isaacs, is in the same league as jews who helped out the Nazis; they got killed last but they are no less dead. Isaacs is certainly a disturbing and vile human being who produces reprehensible product that sullies the whole industry but, as I said before, he's protected by the same constitution that you are unless of course participants in his movies acted against their will which is not alleged in this case. Consenting adults, even when shitting in each others mouths, should be no concern of government.
See thats the problem... its the jury members that convict people of obscenity not the government. So while I respect the view that it should be no concern of govt, the real question is how do you convince a jury that even fecal matter is protected. Rather than try to protect someone's right to "make" porn (of any kind including fecal matter) why not take the approach that no one in the 21st century has the right to tell me or anyone else for that matter what I can or cannot watch. What this country lacks is a basic right to privacy.... the EU gets it as do so many other countries. Sex and reproduction are private matters.... Not for the govt or for a jury or even my neighbors to decide. Just my non-lawyer 2 cents....
Porn is porn is porn. One person's taste may not suite the other's. But....no one should be incarcerated for making pornography unless someone was hurt (manipulation, physically, emotionally, unconsensual ). Remember, one man's pile of shit is another man's gold! the fuck junkie ♠
Well put! I don't think Thomas should have said he was speaking for Vivid, but rather just himself. At the same time, I find it ironic that people are saying Thomas should give up his right to express his opinion on the subject while everyone is saying Isaacs should be left to his own shit making devices. Free speech is a double edged sword and if the Ira Isaacs and Max Hardcores of the world ought to be allowed to exist and make their, IMO, disgusting movies, then PT and everyone else who sees them as trash should be allowed to voice that opinion without fear of being told they are hindering free speech.
I don't think you try to convince juries that "fecal matter is protected." But, your comment does speak to The Real Issue the porn industry is facing. It's NOT porn vs "the government" or the prosecutors, but porn not having the support of the everyday citizens who sit on juries, and who convict people. Prosecutors will not continue to bring cases to trial (and spend tax-payers money) unless they can get convictions! Look at the campaign material the next time your local prosecutor is running for re-election. They always hype their Conviction Rates! So, when the porn industry insists on embracing the Max Hardcores, Ira Isaacs, Rob Blacks and JM Productions and say "These are our brethern" the industry is setting itself up for more convictions. "If you hate these scumbags," the industry is saying, "then convict us too. Because we stand for the same thing." But, the ordinary people who serve on juries hate these guys. And just want the prosecutors to present evidence to justify their sending these guys to jail. I've said this before. Italians have disavowed the mob. Latinos speak out against youth gangs that infest their community. And, the Black Community has turned its back on crack dealers. But, the Porn Industry (usually) continues to support the scumbags within their ranks. So, IMO, the Paul Thomas statement is refreshing because it breaks with the conformity of the "group think" that most people in the industry have mindlessly accepted. And porn people like to think of themselves as "rebels." Ha!
Organized crime is illegal. Gang Activity is illegal. Selling crack is illegal. Where is the statute that says eating shit in front of a camera is illegal? I as a pornographer disavow and distance myself from the activities of Max Hardcore, Rob Black etc but applauding their prosecutions would be hypocritical because the same jury that finds their product to be obscene could also feel that way about my own. I'm sure there are potential jury pools in many parts of this country that would convict Hollywood movie studios for obscenity if such a case were brought before them. It's been said so often by so many that I hesitate to repeat it but obscenity is the only crime that you don't know you've committed until you're convicted of it. Even if 100% of the civilized world agreed that the activities depicted in Issaac's films are disgusting and vile, does he deserve to go to jail? or could you simply not watch his movies and never think of him again for the rest of your life. A waste of resources spent on an insignificant issue done purely for political purposes with no thought given to actual justice.
But it IS the federal government who is brining charges against pornography studios in the first place. True, they may be doing so in order to win votes among a certain influential minority of the population, but, in the end, THEY are responsible for orchestrating the entire spectacle. (Aren't the names of the trials listed as "The United States vs. X"?) Congress made those obscenity laws back in the 1930s, the Supreme Court accepted them as constitutional, and the executive branch has the choice of enforcing them or not. All the jury does is decide whether or not the material in question fits the absurdly vague description of "obscenity." Regardless of their decisions, the government will continue to go after porn to impress the religious folk (and to expand its own power).
Yes, of course. The government makes the charges but it is still up to the juries to decide to convict or find innocent. The fact that juries frequently convict says something about what American taste is. But, considering the type of porn constantly being tried, it also paints an incorrect picture of what porn actually is. When the average American sees an article in the paper about porn, it's never "Paul Thomas wins AVN award for his story movie" or "Micheal Ninn finishes another overrated wanna-be epic" but rather "dirty scat pornographer charged with obscenity." And then the average American who doesn't know shit about the real state porn industry gets the impression that everyone in it is an Ira Isaacs type and that they are all making girls eat their own shit and therefore should all be charged for obscenity. Paul Thomas, or anyone else in the porn industry for that matter, coming out and saying openly "that's not us" is a good thing. Sure, it might create an industry rift but at least it makes it a bit more clear that everyone involved in porn isn't making things like Isaacs. If porn wants support, which it's never going to fully get, it has to clean up its own image. I'm not suggesting that everything be sweet, clean, and vanilla, but making the Ira Isaacs and Max Hardcores the current poster children of unjust obscenity accusations just enhances the already negative impression of porn.
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Jun 22 2008 : 11:23AM
It is interesting that right wingers usually favor the rules of an unfettered marketplace to determine whether something should be produced or not, except when it comes to porn.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Jul 17 2008 : 4:13PM
very well put. My wife is serving on a Federal Grand Jury this year, and I can tell you that when they see something that is disturbing and vile, they will vote to prosecute more often than not. If you are the hold out juror that says, hey shitting in someones mouth or horse blow jobs are ok, you are pretty much considered the freak. They see each other every week for a year.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Jul 17 2008 : 4:24PM
Why is it necessary to just throw out insults and start name calling? I would bet you never meet PT, but you stand in judgement of him. I've known him for 20 years and he is a really interesting, funny guy who really loves his work. I may add that he is very intelligent and has won more awards and done more for this business than most people involved in it. I think you just post hateful shit because you can't think of something intelligent to say that would add to this discussion. I for one, am sick of it. How would you feel if people who don't even know you start saying you're a stink pickle? I'm sure you will reply by calling me a name and tell me how you don't give a fuck, don't bother.
Correction. The government makes up the charges. You know how when you were a kid and you played games and because it was your game, you made up the rules? That's how it goes. They just make shit up, write it down, bully everyone else who matters into voting for it and then it's the rule (or the law). That's all life is. Childish games with stupid, petty rules for grown ups. You have real crime like rape and murder and theft and then you have pretend crime like fisting and scat. The latter is prosecuted because it provokes a kneejerk "Ewwwww! I don't wike vat!" reaction in a bunch of overgrown children who just can't get over the fact that other people get into shit that they wouldn't. Being the spoiled, selfish brats they are, they set out to destroy whatever it is that they don't like.Of course. The whole charade is given some air of legitimacy by juries who are as easily led along by the bridle as any mindless farm animal. They can't help it. It's all they know how to do.Quite prudish, it is. The average American makes Victoria look pretty open minded. Sure. They're into sex. But the minute the find out somebody likes something they think is weird, the nooses come out.Indeed. But that's what they want to see anyway and that's why the media feeds them their preferred diet. People see what they want to see. Whether it's true or not. If there's one pebble among millions that is perfectly round, a person who wants to assert that all pebbles are perfectly round will look until they find it and hold it up as evidence of their assertion. And everyone else who wants to believe the same thing will believe that all pebbles are perfectly round and will completely ignore every oblong, lopsided pebble they ever see.Of course it is. But you and I both know it won't change a thing. Because the real idiots out there have already made up their minds. They did so long ago and they had no real evidence of anything. They just jumped to the conclusions they wanted to jump to and that was that.Very, very few are, in fact. But again, what does that matter? They make shit up. If there wasn't one person making scat porn, they'd still be accusing the porn industry of something.Support from whom? You admit it will never fully get it. It will only get support from people who are open minded in the first place. It will probably never get the support of any politician who has any chance so I'd just drop that dream. Porn only survives because they can't completely stamp it out and they know it. Even many porn fans have been brainwashed into believing they're doing something wrong. That's what you're up against if you think you're going to win widespread support for porn.Well, we didn't exactly make them that. If I could have talked to someone like Max years ago and I actually thought he'd listen to me, I'd have advised him to just make regular vanilla hardcore. I'm sure some people did give him that advice. He chose to make his porn the way he wanted to and the government chose to prosecute him for it. He may be guilty of their silly obscenity charge but they're guilty of being a bunch of horses asses prosecuting people for fucking when they can't even find a man who murdered over 3,000 Americans in broad daylight dragging a dialysis machine around in the desert.
I made one comment about him in my entire posting career. Take a chill pill. And no, I haven't met him. Hence my statement that "has always come across to me...". You think he's a great guy. Goodie for you. Others are allowed to have an opinion of him that is different than your own. Perhaps if I met him I would feel differently. Perhaps not. And if we restricted our comments to only those people we have met or know personally, this board would be pretty quiet. See that, no name calling or insults. Happy?
I'm siding with P.T. on this one. The line between decency and obscenity is not an every expanding one. I think we hit an apex with scatology and bestiality. Besides you're really fucked in the head in that's the kind of media that does it for you. His films are not quasi-performance driven. Nothing simulated here. The industry will forever push the lid of the envelope and and anger social conservative groups which is always a good practice. The industry also does a good job a policing itself. They know what is acceptable and where to draw the line and Mr. Isaacs clearly stepped over the line. He is not a misunderstood artist.
I don't think there is any country in the world that has completely free speech. Every society has some kind of standards that everybody is expected to respect. And those who don't respect those standards are punished in some official and/or unofficial way. What people should be and shouldn't be allowed to say is a matter of public opinion. And this opinion changes over time and from one generation to another. The only way to resolve disputes that involve differences of opinion is to hold a vote and let the people decide. The opinions of our generation are not any more right or wrong than were the opinions of people who lived before us. And opinions of our descendants won't be any more right or wrong than the opinions of our generation are. There is no absolute standard for what the freedom of speech should be. And that's why it changes from one generation to another.
Good counterpoints to my points from RandomPrecision. I'll hopefully suffice it to say this: We all know that we live in a pretty ass-backwards conservative country that will happily send anyone and everyone off to die in the middle east before it says it's perfectly fine to watch people fucking. The American porn industry exists in this ass-backwards country and tries to thwart its ass-backwards values by promoting itself as the rebel protectors of free speech. Sure, maybe it is to a degree, but for the most part it isn't. Whenever a porn company or pornographer feels that his or her right of free expression has been violated, they like to sort of rally round the flag and talk about how censorship reform must be done. But who are they rallying to? Other porn people who can't make a difference? 20 or so fans who will all happily say they support such reform but will never actually press their local or national legislators to have it enacted? What's even more stupid is why most porn companies/pornographers get charged: because they send their material to places where it is blatantly illegal! I don't have much of any sympathy for those who know Georgia, Florida and all the other really ass-backward states that think dresses that go above the knee are immoral don't allow porn to enter their god fearing territories, but who send it there anyway. What were they expecting? I All of that said, the fact that the above mentioned "crimes" can carry the same punishment as 3rd degree murder is just as ludicrous. But without the public saying anything, that's how it's going to continue. With all due respect to my fellow posters, how many ADT members would send a letter with their real first and last name and real address to a congressperson requesting at least local obscenity reform?
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Jul 18 2008 : 12:22PM
Thank you for your civil response. I just feel that it is not right to sling insults at people you don't know. I'm sure if you ever talked to him, you might like him, maybe not. I never said people can't have a different opinion, but shouldn't there be some basis to that? I think Paul Thomas is an asshole because he... His comments about Ira Issacs are shared by many in the industry, I cringed where I saw this guy on national news talking about his right to make horse fucking movies, because that is what the general public assumes we are. They see him and think, ah ha , I knew it, that's what those pornographers look and sound like. I've worked really hard over the last 25 years to change that stereotype. I have kids, been married for 28 years, hey some people don't get that sentence for murder, pay my taxes, participate in the community and am a pretty stand up guy. People like Ira Issacs makes it difficult to be able to say to somebody when they ask what you do, that I'm in the adult entertainment business. And when somebody does ask me what I do, I have for the last 25 years said I'm in the adult entertainment business, no matter who asks me, that is my answer.
Stop using the constitution for crap like this. if you want to watch someone crap on someone else, then go watch it in some dark corner where you belong. That goes for the Max Hardcore's of the world and any other creep that has been getting away with this sick behavior. As for Paul Thomas, Ive hated to agree with him on anything ever since he wrecked Nikki Loves Rocco with the worst case of over editing:)
thats despicable. I dont like most of his product or corporate or artistic style but up till now I never had any reason to despise him. Guess he just moved into his glass house. Sasha you can say what you said till you and the rest of us screaming it along with you are blue in the face...that no one should ever ever give a bleep about what other people like to do, produce, or watch as long as its consenting...but we will always be faced with that hateful narrow smug side of human nature.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Jul 18 2008 : 2:36PM
you are taking one line out of context, you should try reading the whole article and see the reasoning behind that one sentence. I don't applaud anyones prosecution, but I understand it. Ira Issacs can make anything he wants, but he also runs the risk of being a target. Same goes for any of us. The disturbing part for me is that he becomes the picture of the adult business. He makes national news and is not only speaking on his behalf, but what seems to be on our behalf. America gets a very distorted picture of this industry. No one else I know is currently in production at a stable, or shooting girls getting a mouthful of shit. It very well may even be consensual, let's say it is, the fact is that a grand jury will elect to prosecute that type of filming. If he wants to be a test case, good for him, maybe he can rewrite history, although I doubt it. Let's say he even wins, now it is ok to shoot horse blow jobs and scat material, 97% of the studios will still never shoot that type of movie. i think it's easy for you to say, hey we should get to watch what we want, everythings ok, there shouldn't be any limitations on what I watch, I say where does that line get drawn, is kiddie porn ok? Of course it isn't, and it may not be kiddie porn, but there certainly is a degree when enough is enough.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Jul 18 2008 : 2:39PM
They have already come several times in the last 25 years, but Vivid survived because they made films that people could jerk off to, or watch with their partner. It was erotica and still is. They never made films like "Make Room for Doody".
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Jul 18 2008 : 4:42PM
no it makes them smarter than to produce stuff they can get indicted for. The morality police can shout and scream all they want, from anything to teaching the big bang therory in schools to porno, it is the jurors, the general public that matters. The extreme right or the extreme left doesn't make the rules. the middle ground always wins.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Jul 18 2008 : 5:23PM
Then why didn't they? The movie has been out for 6 years. It never had a problem. Just curious, what could possibly be obscene in Bobby Sox in your opinion? Also I guess technically could get indicted for anything, but it costs them money to put you in the system, if they don't think they could win the case, they aren't going to bother. Edited by - hollywood woody on 7/18/2008 5:25:49 PM Edited by - hollywood woody on 7/18/2008 5:26:44 PM
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Jul 18 2008 : 7:32PM
I understand your point, but they aren't going to find something obscene if they can't beat you in court, that's why they don't prosecute against storyline films. If there was 12 people that would have found it obscene they would move against it, and everything Wicked does, and Digital Playground does. The point is that as far as I'm concerned I'm not in the same business as Ira Issacs. People can say that I am, but I'm not.
Ummmm.... a couple of years ago there was a local obscenity prosecution in Virginia .... yes they still happen they just dont make national news ... against ... are you ready for this one ... Behind the Green Door... yes thats right a 35 year old porn movie. The case was against the seller, not the producer. Not sure what happened, but an obscenity prosecution can be brought against any movie. PT might not like Isaacs or his movie, but he really should not make his feelings public while a man is on trial. Good decorum dictates waiting until the trial is over and the jury comes back with a verdict.
Which is exactly what I've been trying to say the entire time. Thanks :)
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A-ten Deactivated User
581 Posts 8/07
Posted - Jul 19 2008 : 12:32AM
I can't say I as I care one way or the other. But I have to admit my motivation level to defend a person like Max Hardcore is not high. I may think that Max probably shouldn't have been prosecuted and should be allowed to do what he wants to do as long as he is using parties that consent. But at the same time I'm not going to get up in arms to defend a man like Max Hardcore's right to make films that are abusive to women just because he managed to find some women willing to take the abuse on camera for money. I doubt they'll be enough people to make a different who want to stand up and defend Max Hardcore's right to make vile porn. So I guess if Max Hardcore pushes it far enough, the Supreme Court will be watching Max Hardcore Porn films and deciding what is acceptable. Won't that be funny.
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - Jul 20 2008 : 2:19AM
Why? Don't we already have enough of that? There are enough unexplored sexual fetishes that pornographers really don't need to keep doing the same old things repeatedly. This is exactly what I think Max was doing, and what made him so successful. Of course, with any success or popularity a person has, there will always be those people who hate him for it and want to see him taken down as well. But when you work in an industry as widely stigmatized by society as porn, those people who wish for that should be really careful what they wish for.It is a good thing for the porn industry, and those of us who support it, that Max Hardcore made the type of pornography he decided to make. Whether or not certain animadverters within the porn industry choose to remove themselves from their superior pedestals enough to acknowledge it, the porn industry needs the Max Hardcores, the Rob Blacks, and all the others who might be labelled as "freaks" and "sickos." It is these people who add flavor to what would- or has- become an otherwise stale industry. It is also people like this who help pornography to evolve as a genre, as no genre of art should remain static. Unfortunately, these people are also the easiest to single out and condemn as being somehow more perverse than everyone else. But that has always been the case with people willing to push the envelope; they are the easiest to pick on. There is also no lack of people willing to jump on the bandwagon to persecute them (as we can observe from some of the comments in this thread), including people should reasonably be supporting them.True. But some people can't help wanting to be apart of the popular crowd. It's as if to say, "Even though we both make our money by producing smut, I'm nothing like that other guy. You should like me, because I'm better than him." On the other hand, when the government is trying to take down all of your industry competitors one by one, I can see how it might be diffcicult for some people to resist the urge to gloat.Hopefully, it won't have to go that far. If things go the way they should, an appellate court will overturn his conviction.
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Jul 20 2008 : 2:29AM
Realtip, please, Max had been beating his schtick into the ground for decades, if that isn't repeating yourself what is? There are hardly any 'unexplored' sexual fetishes, we've been doing the same kinky things for hundreds, if not thousands of years. There's nothing new under the sun.
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - Jul 20 2008 : 2:41AM
It becomes repitition when everybody is doing the same thing as everybody else. From what I saw of his movies, he was catering to a particular niche that the rest of pornography was overlooking for the most part.In the context of video pornography, this is so not true.
Paul Thomas @ AEBN
Posted - Jun 20 2008 : 12:14AM
