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For someone starting out as a porn director for a studio, how much can they expect to make? How many copies per DVD would have to sell for a director to get to the Jules Jordan / Joey Silvera level? Are there any industry experts here who know?
Jules Jordan/Joey Silvera are in a unique position -- as also would be Seymour Butts, for example, or Stoney Curtis, or even myself on a much smaller level, with my co-op deal with Madness Pictures -- because they own their own product. Of course, we all must invest in it, too.
Those who own their own releases reap the lion's share of the net profit from sales of DVDs, so even in the case of the most modestly selling director -- in the above examples, that would certainly be me -- he stands to do much better than in 95 percent of the work-for-hire situations in the industry, where a director is either under contract and on salary or hired as an independent contractor on a freelance basis.
Also in the favor of those owning their releases are healthy shares of all ancillary rights, including softcore cable versions -- a big chunk of cash, though one that the Evil Angel crowd eschews for aesthetic reasons, & are able to because of extraordinary DVD sales figures -- as well as internet licensing, comps & foreign rights.
On the other hand, if you are entering the business as a work-for-hire director, expect to make shit or close to it, quite possibly forever -- unless you're a workaholic who wants to shoot two movies a week, which would describe Skeeter, the Red Light crew, etc, who are in the elite of independent contractors but work like machines to get there.
Basically, if you have the capital to start your own production company, however small, & can strike a distribution deal with a reputable & reasonably successful co-op or larger production house, & the audience responds positively to your work, you will make more money for less work in a reasonable amount of time.
There are variations -- some in-house or freelance directors manage to strike royalty deals, which can mean quite a few dollars or can mean nothing, depending on sales figures and their employer's accounting practices. But those are the two basic business models for being a porn director, expressed above.
I've mentioned typical freelance prices in other threads, & won't repeat them here in the interests of ... ah, let's say, good taste. LOL
One way to make real money is to buy a consumer handycam (make sure to set it on full-auto mode) and a softbox and call yourself a "producer". Then proceed to crank out scenes like McDonalds cranks out hamburgers.
Now, if you decide to use a professional camera, professional audio, decent location, good make up artist then often there won't be much left in the budget to pay yourself.
My clients provide me higher budgets than "producers" who have been this biz for 10 times longer than myself but even with the extra money I still make way less than the "producers" who cut corners and pocket the money. I won't skip using a make-up artist or shoot my movies on consumer handycams to save money. I am searching for one of the big companies to see my movies and give me an opportunity to shoot for them. The only way to get them to notice me is to constantly dig into my own pocket in order to make the scenes better (and hotter)than what you usually see.
After you figure in my equipment costs, time spent casting and booking, setting up (then breaking down) the location, editing, then delivering the product I imagine that I make less per hour than the guy bagging your groceries at Ralphs.
The way I pay my bills is to continue to take mainstream jobs like music videos and other projects where production value is is not only appreciated but absolutely expected.
Those guys are gay right? I just wanted to make sure that they weren't method actors.
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myadultgroups Deactivated User
Los Angeles 755 Posts 10/04
Posted - Oct 22 2005 : 5:56AM
Expo_Vids, I think I've been to your site. If its the site I'm thinking of, nice work. I have a consumer handycam right now and I'm getting comfortable with handling it and editing the footage. I hope to graduate to a Canon XL next year. I plan to take some film making classes next year too, so I can learn about lighting, etc.
Thanks for the compliment but those are just fun videos I made at a few conventions where I showed up without proper equipment. Next AVN I will get much better audio and will have a "story" or "theme" which will link all the various videos together.
I can't post examples of the work I do for my main client because I have a non-disclosure agreement. I can only show very short sample clips as part of my portfolio or show people the scenes in person on my laptop. But it seems to work in my favor because I am forced to actually meet with clients in person and I am sure that this personal contact helps me get the jobs.
You would think my client would want to help promote the content I create for them but I guess some of these companies don't want their competition to recruit their producers. Strange but true. I think it spawns from the internet crowd who made millions on the net and are now in the DVD side as well. These guys often do not want anyone to know who shoots for them.
If any of you guys are wanting to break into shooting the only way you will get work is to show a sample. So get a "reel" together by offering to shoot models for their own content at no charge. Then put your sample movies on a disk and proceed to pound on lots of doors. Your movies can be 1 hex better quality than the company you are trying to court but it does not matter to many of them. You have to basically shove it in their faces over and over and they might realize it would be wise for them to hire someone who actually cares about the product they create.(something other than the "What is your name, How old are you, Where are you from, How many scenes have you done" type of vomit you always see in porn videos.
I think the main reason these guys get lots of work is because they cut corners every chance they get and they can churn out scenes at such a low cost. If you don't give a fuck about shooting at a visually appealing location you save money and time setting up/breaking down, if you don't hire a make up artist you save money, if you don't have pro level equipment you save money, if you don't give a fuck about pairing up people who will be hot together you save time on booking, if you don't give a fuck about wardrobe you save time and money. So in a way these guys are smarter than guys like me. After all they have a much better business model and therefore end up making a lot more money even though their scenes are often boring and look like crap.
It never ceases to amaze me all these new companies that are launching. I read the press releases where they say things like "we are bringing something new and fresh to adult" and basically brag about how great their product is. Then I go to their site and look at the trailers and it looks like a 2 year old child shot and edited the videos. There is one company that is launching very soon and most of their videos have very bad backlighting so the models are dark and you cannot see penetration shots. You don't have to go to film school to be better than the next guy. All you have to do is understand what an "iris wheel" is and how to use it. If you use the iris wheel then you will be years ahead of most of these porn "producers". LOL
I may sound bitter from some of my words but it is not because I can't find work. I actually have much more work than I can handle and often turn jobs down. The reason I sound bitter is because I still have to compete on price with the McDonalds producers who crank out 4x as many scenes as I do. Sure, I do get paid more but not enough to compensate me for the extra time and equipment/production/make up costs.
Can you imagine someone at Jules Jordan's level shooting scenes for the type of low budgets that most of us get? I bet Jules puts more time, work, and care into editing a trailer than most of the "producers" spend on their entire movies. I prefer to shoot my scenes a bit different than he does but I do LOVE his movies because he creates emotion and sucks you into the scene in the type of way a good Hollywood movie makes your forget about where you are and what you need to do the next day. Fuck, I would rather watch one of his trailers than 90% of the lame-ass porn movies out there. Also I have seen some of Mike Quasar's work and I thought it looked great. I will make a point of actually getting a few of his movies so I can see more from him.
If you are going to start out in a "work for hire" type situation where you won't be actually producing the scenes you might want to be careful about what type of camera you buy. If you get too "professional" of a camera then you will might have to rent a cheap consumer camera just so your footage matches the footage from the other cameras used by the company. Crazy but true, I have had to rent cameras that are lower quality just so I could get a job.
It seems the crowd is going towards HDV cams. I even bought 2 of them this year. I don't like them and I certainly do not like the HDV format. But I shoot with them whenever a client wants "HD" but does not want to pay for real HD.
As far as lighting goes.... Clients tend to want boring flat lighting so they can see ALL the penetration/crack shots. I prefer having highlights and shadows but it seems the more light I put in the scene the more my clients like it. Again, I do not like it that type of lighting, just doing what my clients ask for so instead of spending half my day lighting a scene I just turn on the Kino Flos and shoot away.
Also you need to be able to shoot decent stills when there is no budget for a photographer.
myadultgroups- are you in LA? Maybe I invite you to one of my sets sometime to check it out. Are you quick with the lube and wet wipes? LOL
In that case, Skronk -- you wouldn't want to be in the position many, many directors are in.
I agree with most of what Expo Vids says, though his I'm-the-only-man-among-you-monkeys reminds me a bit too much of not just Tony but me at my most arrogant, but Tony & I do have the advantage that we stand behind our prickiness with full identity disclosure -- non-disclosure cuz of my employers and/or I work in mainstream reads like "blah blah blah" to me no offense to you personally, Expo VIds, since you would have to be more than a new voice from the ozone for it to BE personal ....
& though I'm participating in a thread hijack here -- this was not a place to bitch about the realities of shooting porn, but to answer a question of how porn directors might make their sheckels, not what cretins they might or might not be -- I will clue you, Expo, that the reason for that crappy flat lighting is because a helluva lot of fans -- they're quite vocal right here on ADT, for example -- actually PREFER that clinical lighting, because porn to them is not much more than adventures in gynocology -- well, as performed by Ilsa, She-Wolf of the SS.
Doesn't mean I agree with it. But you should know why you're up against what you're up against.
How long did you say you've been knocking on doors?
That's crazy. I complain about my finances, but when I do work I get paid well enough for my efforts that I can put in about 25 hours in a week and pull $1500. (Basically, 3 full days, at middling word rates).
Well put. Obviously, if you or I were doing what we respectively do mainly for the moolah, we wouldn't have spent so much time & luv cultivating the sour grapes that have turned into such fine whines on this august board.
Expo, am curious: Why do you like to shoot porn? What do you see its potential being, as a genre of filmmaking?
Good luck, Expo -- it's an industry that really doesn't care about quality.
I am fascinated to learn that these web moguls moving into DVD are so paranoid & competitive -- reminds me of that netcalendargirls nutcase I spoke to at one point, so I can believe it ...
& hey, don't stop lighting the right way just because certain people don't get it. I gather from your attitude you DON'T want to be the aesthetic equivalent of a burger-flipper, so don't let 'em drag you down. Part of the game is establishing an identity however, so I'd figure out something in that regard -- maybe a totally different nom de porn that your clients have no say over?
& Skronk-boy, milove; of course the fascination with sex -- & zipless sex -- has to do with a true pervert's initial commitment to porn. Unfortuntately, however, I've found that in 90 percent of the cases, my sex life pre-porn director was full of happier, more meaningful, non-commercial sex with partners just as physically attractive as the best I've shot. Plus which I never had much in the way of brushes with social diseases -- until this lovely biz! Life is nothing if not a series of trade-offs ...
In fact there are plenty of customers and potential customers out there, both wholesale and retail; who either have little or no interest in what's commonly available, or who like what's commonly available just fine but are still interested in experiencing something different.
If what you've got to offer really does stand apart, you'll have customers who are more than willing to pay you enough that you can spend money on locations, set up time, make-up artist, etc, and still have enough left over for yourself.
Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous? 4283 Posts 4/00
Posted - Oct 23 2005 : 12:51AM
softcore cable versions... iris wheel... lighting... WHOAAAA! You guys have lost me! Just kidding! Well, maybe not on the softcore cable version part. :)
Anyway, skronker, it seems that some of the people working as directors for less than money than what you make are hoping to gain enough experience to be able to work their way up the chain. Either that, or else the sex attached makes it worth it!
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broncster2614 Deactivated User
404 Posts 3/04
Posted - Oct 23 2005 : 12:56AM
This may have been asked before, but how does an unknown who is not near any or has any porn affiliations (east coast) get started?
If you just have a camera, and some money, how do you get started in the business?
Just like in Hollywood, you have to know people. However, once you get to know people you'll find that the only requirement for at least modest success in porn is based entirely on knowing people. Knowing how to use a camera properly is an advantage but is by no means a requirement.
I worked in main stream for almost ten years before coming to adult. My experience and education ranged from grip/electric to directing and shooting Indy features. I gave Tom Byron and Rob Black my reel and they hired me for Evolution and Extreme. I had to first do BTS crew work, then edit, then shoot Bonus scenes. I already had a lot of experience in all those fields but until you prove yourself no one will give you their money to shoot. And finally after proving myself I got my own lines like this Slut-O-Rama I shoot.
I did turn down higher paid work in main stream but the checks weren't as steady as in adult. Plus I had an opportunity to be creative and get paid for it full time. I bring the same mentality to my new career regarding quality and professionalism. When you care about what you do it really does show in the final product.
IMHO, it's all about "whackability" (situational, of course, to the type viewer one is targeting); and, always keep in mind, that adult film Directors are shooting porn, not "Gone With The Wind". Oh, and just because I get off on a certain thing (big boobs, tiny boobs, close ups, wide-angle shots, feet, spectacles, smoking, or whatever) it doesn't mean that my way will sell enough product to be financially worthwhile.
