A recent turn of developments in a Yahoo group got me thinking. In the Aimee Tyler Yahoo group, someone with the Yahoo ID emilydancer calimed to be "the former Aimee Tyler" and said she wanted the group deleted and said she was going to try and erase what she could of her porn past. I told her it would be impossible to erase everything (though the group was deleted this morning). Why do the girls take this position? It is certainly impossible to erase a porn career once it has happened. Why can't they just retire and move on?
Maybe parents fucked 'em up. Church fucked 'em up. School fucked 'em up. The rest of us/you...er 'society'...fucked 'em up: the pointing and laughing, the tears, the self-doubt, the low self-esteem, the psychic vampires out there feeding on that shit to make themselves feel better about themselves or just to wallow in someone else's misery (WOHOHOHOHOOOO -- look at that whore go!! Goddamn what a worthless piece of human garbage to let a bunch of guys do that to her for money -- Holy SHIT, dude!! Did you see that!!)...
...the stigma .
The real shame about having sexual shame so strongly reinforced in us from the time we're born (JOHNNY!! NO DON'T TOUCH THAT!! -- Cover yourself, Tina, don't you have any SHAME??) is that it's something we all (pretty much) think about and either enjoy or wish we were. Fucking and sucking, as I've said before, are such such simple and innocent acts, in and of themselves; the rest is all in our heads! (Yes, I like making that point.)
We're sexual beings; we like to fuck. We wouldn't obsess over it so much if it wasn't important. It's how we procreate, for crissakes! And show affection, even love. Or just get some exercise and relieve some stress!
But then the voices pipe in: SEX BAD! SEX DIRTY! SEX SHAMEFUL! COVER UP! PUT THAT AWAY! DON'T MASTURBATE! DON'T THINK LUSTFUL THOUGHTS! (Oh, like you can hit puberty and help THAT - it's never stopped for me! ).
Yes, we all know the rabbit hole goes much deeper, but what can you do? You can't undo all that training overnight. It takes time and effort, and will. And who wants to work? Not me, look at my lazy ass slacking off AGAIN. (Send money).
I suspect if there was no shame, porn would not be able to exist. It's so so good because, you know, it's *stage whisper* dirty , and if it's dirty, it must be bad and wrong and Mommy will find out and spank me! Thus, making me associate sin with corporal punishment, and thenit all get so horribly confused, and, "Mommy! Mommy! I've been a bad boy again, Mommy!" SO can porn obliterate shame -- or does it always pack its punch because of shame? And our eternally infantile sensibilities, hardwired since childhood?
What if you feel no sexual shame? I don't think porn need rely on shame for heat.
I can see why someone would want to erase their past -- maybe it has to do with shame maybe not. Maybe it's just about the reality of who they want to be next and how their past impacts on that. I may be completely wrong and certainly don't know for sure but I guess there are probably few non-sex related careers that a porn past would actively enhance or support.
If they want to hide their pasts and move on I can see why. People are too judgemental, add kids to the mix and you'll hear, don't play with them do you know what there mother did. The sad truth is most women are prudish about sex and can't relate to those who are open about it, performed "Taboo" sex acts, ect.
Missy was a perfect example, she was a depraved pornstar on film but when she left she railed against everything she had been doing.
Maybe it is how they rationalize there pasts.
Too bad, If a pornstar moved in next door I wouldn't judge them on there career but how they act as a person and a neighbor. Treat me with respect and I'll treat you the same way.
Porn offers very few opportunities for either cast or crew to build a reel that is meaningful in the larger world. Subject matter aside, you don't really learn many 'transferable skills' making hour-long videos on a 15K budget (especially not when ~10K is being eaten by talent fees.)
Now and again there are opportunites to do work that one is proud of, but again subject matter aside, it's hard to make something that is genuinely crafted making hour-long videos on a $15K budget. What that leaves is the (in)fame and the money.
Now I'd be the last person to turn my nose up at $125K/year, but it's not that much when amortized over 10+ years it might take the world to forget who you are. And presuming a young woman has socked away a nice nest egg, even if wants to proudly stand by her porn past, the world at large isn't going to make this easy for her. ("Hey, isn't she that girl from Tear Me a New One 6 ?")
I have a dream.
I dream of a world where sex is finally takes its place among the subject matter that photographic artist, and especially cinematic artist art permitted to explore, free from fear of proscecution, and with access to the same markets that all other artists, exploring every other aspect of the human experience enjoy.
I dream of a world where $15K/film is the catering budget for a small erotic production. I dream of a world people's desire to watch a film and jack off is treated with the same respect afforded their desire to watch a fishing show. I dream of a world where the sexual prowess and enthusiasm of performers is matched by the filmcraft of the productions in which they appear. I dream of a world where an Aimee Tyler can look back on her career, secure in the knowledge that she has provided a financial future for herself, and knowing that she has created a body of work of which she can be unabashedly proud.
If images of yourself were captured on video forever getting bukkaked, gangbanged, creampied, and throatfucked until you puked, might'nt you not feel them same way? The real tragedy is, it can never be erased. Once those images are out there, they will be for the rest of your life. Somewhere. And I think these canned answers of this "stigma" attatched to this is somehow Society's prudish hangup is laughable. The thrill of these movies is the sexual humiliation and degradation of the women performing in them. Any "fan" denying this is either delusional or protesting to much. Look within.
Edited by - Frederic Chopin on 3/24/2005 9:40:42 AM
Some people's thrills are other people's "yawn....next". What's so hard to understand and accept about that?
I don't get off on the degradation; I get off on seeing someone I'm sexually attracted to demonstrating mad skills with the man meat and getting fucked hard and swallowing come because it's intense and it feels good, not because she's so NAUGHTY.
{"Damn, look at that bitch go. Look at her ass get torn up. What a whore."} -- I say potato and jerk off to the shape and jiggle of her ass while she gets nailed from behind / someone else says po-TAH-to and and jerks madly panting what a piece of shit she must be to have that dick in her on film in the first place.
I do not believe getting my dick sucked is something whoever sucks it should be ashamed of. Even if I grab her by the back of the head and make her gag on it. Am I really in such extreme denial about the "TRUTH" of the way the world works? I don't know; I actually have better sex at home than I see in the porn that some people will only ever jerk off to...
See, I take a shit, I eat a meal, I blow a load -- all very natural and shameless acts for me. I've shit in front of other people. It was called school, then boot camp. I don't have that hangup. I could get it up in front of other people. I realize this probably makes me a freak. All the better to hear me out, then, right?
That does NOT mean I want pictures of myself taking a shit, eating, or having my dick sucked all over the world.
So, {smirk} -- just WHY NOT, Mr. Canned Answer Cobalt, because you would be ASHAMED?
Fuck no, it's because I believe in everyone's right to privacy. It should be everyone's conscious fucking decision how much of our private lives we share with the rest of the world and how we choose to react to the world's reactions.
Tired cliche: the world is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it.
Speaking of canned answers: it's just nasty and degrading and that's what there is to like about it does NOT satisfy the requirements of an answer to WHY this shame (inability to "move on with their lives") exists in the FIRST fucking place.
If automatically saying that me showing someone a picture of my dick getting sucked or shooting a load in my wife's ass is somehow degrading to either me or my wife, then I think the problem lies with the viewer. Pretty fucked up, ain't it? I love it!
See, I'm just going to laugh and say "Aww....you're just jealous, because you know damn well that's one NICE ASS and you wish it was YOUR dick in it, don'cha, shameboy...yeah, ya do." Here, have a beer.
But I choose privacy. I'm not an exhibitionist, and I have absolutely nothing to prove other than to try, occasionally, to get people to think, JUST FOR A SECOND, about WHY they believe what they believe.
ERrrr.....Hell-O, Mr. Cobalt, yeah...real world speaking...yeah...listen, we've got someone on the line who claims you're not with the program, that you need more hangups...
...click....bzzzzzzzzz....
So, maybe none of us REALLY want pictures of ourselves taking a big Stanley Steamer all over the 'Net, but fucking A, if it happened to ME, I'd laugh about it.
What should I feel? Should I cry? Want to die? Why not just end it all now and get it over with rather than drag it out and suffer so much along the way.
Look within, indeed.
(Edited to remove the not so thinly-veiled "you" shit)
I had originally missed this thread. I'm sorry about that now, as several people have made interesting comments.
whoremonger: now THAT"S a screename! I wonder if emilydancer was really Aimee Tyler. If I were running a Yahoo group concerning a performer, I would certainly consider deleting it if asked by the performer. However, I would need confirmation - and realistically, that is not going to do much to erase the past - another group will pop up.
cobalt: I always look forward to your posts. This one really hit the nail on the head. All I can say is "Preach on, brother!"
skronker: I know what you mean about the taboo attached being part of the attraction. However, we are talking about a media format here. With all of the other abilities to entice, compell, be creative, etc., I think this factor is a minor one and one that would not be missed were society to adopt a more liberal mindset about porn. It could , as TonyC put it, get better .
and Mr. Chopin: All I can say is "WOW! " You certainly have the right to your opinion, but do please not begin to tell me what my attraction to porn is! You have clearly shown your own impetus in viewing it and the fact that you feel this way and still post to boards like these can be seen as hypocritical - but that is also your right.
I, however, have no interest in "the sexual humiliation and degradation of the women " in these DVDs. I do not need to look within to know that I am attracted to attractive people expressing their sexuality. You, however, could probably benefit from your own advice...seek help.
mod note: If you have an opinion on the subject, express it, but can we please leave the combative "yous" and veiled tones of derision out of this. Can't we have a discussion about shame vs. porn without accusing each other of stupidity and delusion for once?
I'm glad people do realize you can fuck the everloving shit out of a woman and turn her into a quivering pile of sweaty, cum-glazed flesh who begs to taste your load, without subtracting from her worth as a human being, and getting off on that concept.
To you, I raise my glass and say "fuck her brains out! She'll love you for it!"
(And yes, I know some women really are worthless whores. That's completely beside the point.)
They destroy her, and she's just insatiable in her goo-splattered glory: Really, it's she who destroys them, Juan Cuba and his buddies. I love that. That's ALL woman. Why should Tyla be ashamed of her sexual power when none of those guys would ever walk down the street ashamed but rather empowered by the orgy of "filth" they have wrought, on behalf of Jake Malone's camera? God, for sure, if we can do away with all this shame, maybe we can just get the fuck on with it! .
The world would be a happier place. But what I was saying before is a lot of porn would need to find a new paradigm in which to function.
Drool and tears and *quack quack* ... yeah, that can be a beautiful, sublime thing. I love it. I don't think I've ever denied it. But I'm so glad to know it's the degradation I'm really getting off on! (Bitch. Whore. Fuckhole. Piece of shit.)
It really makes me feel better, knowing I'm in complete denial of what makes my dick hard. Wow.
A different paradigm, skronker? Not necessarily. A woman's submission can be a gift rather than something taken by force.
But I don't think lumping all sex together with gangbangs, bukkakes, and puking throatfucks is the answer, either. I could be wrong. (Since when are creampies something disgusting? Haven't men been coming in women for a long, long time now? )
Of course, taking it by force can be fun, too. But I could see how having that done to you on film, unable to be taken back, ever, is not necessarily good judgment on the part of an 18 year old girl and pretty damn awful.
Good point.
Yeah well, what do we care about her anyway? It's just porn.
Oh, yeah -- YEAH! In Tyla's case, she's a forceful submissive, but really maybe it's the guys who are submissive. She goes at it like a meat-starved mongrel. I guess, I never meet those aggressive, "fuck my face, Daddy!" types. Not very often. Last time I did, I had to look on the Internet. But I was glad I did. Holy Bongo Drums! If only I had used my camera phone. I'd show you chicken done right . Well, OK. I didn't do much at all. I sat there. She went nuts on my nuts. Was I thinking, "You're a degraded filthy fuckhole! You;'re a meat-sucking whore." No, I was just like, "Go baby go," here, you want some more? Oh God yes, do that, do that. Hoy! Hoy!
I don't think porn sex, hard gonzo, represents sex most people get to have in their spare hours. I think that's the appeal. it's fantasy. Probably even for the performers. Do I get off on talking smack? Hell yes. But I know that's a fantasy, too. The real degraded dirty meatholes walk the streets under the BQE, so close to the Gowanus you can smell the raw sewage mingling with the aroma of carbon discharge forming a cumulus over the highway. Think I want any of those tongues near my exhaust pipe? Nahhhh. Aiyeeee. That's some shemale peehole lovin' anyway, straight out of some Lou Reed opera. People gotta live, you know? But there's some rough scenes just happening, all the time. No need to rent a movie.
Submission, though, it's hot. But that's a coin you can flip.
I changed my mind. Shame is good. I like shame. It'd be a pretty boring world without shame. Some people should be ashamed of themselves, and degraded and reduced to a sobbing mess. And where would be the fun of it for me if they didn't suffer?
I don't meet those aggressive types, either. I met a sweet, nice girl when she was 16 and coaxed out her inner whore over the course of 15 years to love all that nasty shit.
Ok, you're right; let me amend that. It wasn't programming. She loved the idea of all of it; she was just to embarassed to admit it. Still kinda is about some things.
HEY, this ain't all about me, this is about porn starlets, ashamed of their past. Don't make me look inside.
Three more people, where I work, have found new jobs. This place sucks so bad...so bad...I need a whore to degrade. I've got a nickel.
If you read Jessica Darlin's diary at her website. She claims that she regrets doing black guys in her porn career. Apparently, some of her redneck friends in her home town were calling her bad names behind her back. Now she just rambles on and on about how white people have it so bad in America. I think the poor girl has lost her mind...
whoremonger, my take on the question has always been more of a root-cause than an ex post facto one: "Why would a woman perform various intimate, erotic, and perverse acts with a multitide of partnets and agree to have a permanent, commercially available record of those activities made?"
For someone who likes to fuck and wants to make money doing so, a decent-looking and enthusiastic, a decent-looking, halfway enthusiastic woman can make a ton of money as an escort, and, either by being discrete or by moving, preserve anonymity and deniability when she decides to quit the business. Screening clients to minimize legal, financial and health risks is relatively easy, you can operate under the radar (with no public presence) if you wish, and by and large, you're dealing with men who are just grateful for the opportunity to spend some intimate time with a pretty woman, as opposed to performers and directors whose idea of a good time with a woman involves gangbangs, throat-gagging and ass-fucking. (You can, of course, do that as an escort, but there's no one making a video of it.)
A former escort may regret the choices she made earlier in her life, but at least she doesn't run the risk of her kids coming home one day with a video of Mommy in "Inetrracial Cum-Swallowing Ass-fucked Whores Vo. 3."
Just MHO, anmd worth exactly what you paid for it.
Maybe they come to realize that porn is not the glamourous lifestyle that they thought it was, and that it has a long-lasting (often negative) impact on their lives...
That reminds me of this ultrahottie I knew whose husband was cheating on her, and she found out. She started doing a few of my friends by twos and threes (oh, I was tempted, you shoulda seen ... never mind), and some of those episodes were caught on tape. And she did it all for free! God bless America.
No, I don't have a point. I just wish I had a copy.
From what I heard, she was quite innocent in the ways of love, save for man-on-top-get-it-over-with-quick; married the high school sweetheart who took her virginity and all that (and oh my, of course no cocksucking or assfucking, that would just be WRONG).
Well, that changed real quick-like when 2-3 guys started plugging into her simultaneously, like a three outlet human power strip. I wonder is she's ashamed of her past? I believe she stated she felt vindicated and freer than she ever had before. Proof that society is too prudish: once she discovered and released her inner whore, she has been happier and more satisfied (and cumming harder) than in her entire life.
If you fantasize about joining your buddies in banging some hot married chick who's 25 and just now learning how to suck a dick, while you're banging your own wife...does that make you a bad person?
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f_strongbad Deactivated User
Scandinavia 141 Posts 5/04
Posted - Apr 1 2005 : 3:47AM
Aimee Tyler is on my top 10, but how can she even think that it's possible to erase all movies/pictures of her??
When something hot is out on the internet, it stays there and spreads like a fucking virus!
I don't think that taking down som yahoo groups will make a different.
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Eric381 Deactivated User
What are you looking at? It 2452 Posts 3/05
Posted - Apr 1 2005 : 9:58AM
Yes, and if you read what entries are still available from the Jess' diary you mention - you'll note that she's married for over a decade now, and she has some "health issues" (EDIT: appears to be Cancerous).
It's a shame, I haven't read it all just yet, but it seems there is a fire burning about this young lady that won't be put out until she's dead or personally cleansed.
Such is a freedom of decisions & choice, some of which negative consequences may follow. I liked the looks & work of Jess Darlin', she's still a hottie. Power to her in whatever life she has left...
^ I suspect that's more of a right-wing trope to scare young women off from joining the adult industry. Sure there are risks, but I suspect that most former adult stars are able to blend back into society relatively easily. Not to politicize this, but it's probably easier to blend back in in cities, which tend to be more progressive. I agree that if a former performer returns to her little town of Bumfuck, Ohio, she's likely to be ostracized, but in a bigger city, she's likely to just blend in seamlessly.
I don't know that they would be ashamed so much as have regrets for their decision to do porn when they were likely teens or not much older. I don't want to generalise too much but teens and young adults tend to not weigh the long term consequences of their short term actions but for most of us ( me included a long time ago ) those actions tend to be local as oppose to doing porn which is not only national but international. That's especially true for anyone who appeared on different platforms in the last 10 to 15 years because unlike people who did porn pre-internet or in it's early days. The newer performers work is likely going to be on the net long after they are gone and worse because tube and torrent sites then that means that you don't need a credit card to see their content.
^While I agree with you that living in a large metropolitan city is going to make it easier to blend in but the drawback is that bigger cities means more people and that increases the possibility of getting recognized and ultimately it only takes one person who recognizes you to be a problem. Especially if that person is a coworker. I don't want to imply that anyone who does porn should be ashamed or have regrets because I don't believe that but the reality is that society as a rule tends to look down on sex workers.
With the utmost respect, pat362, ever since homo sapiens made the mistake of falling out of the trees, societies as a rule have tended to look down on women. If something about a woman stands out, there's a chance it's also where she's vulnerable. If it's not because she has been a sex worker, maybe it's because she's a virgin. If it's not because she's underpaid, or has been at her job for 15 years and still gets paid less than a junior male assistant, maybe it's because she's the CEO. If it's not because she's the politician's wife who has to suck it up and suck it in because she's there to support her husband while he faces charges of (gasp!) being sucked off by an assistant, then maybe it's because she's a presidential candidate.
Ex-porn stars aren't shamed because they were porn stars. It's because they are women. There for awhile, when Jenna Jameson seemed to be respected and was making appearances on regular talk shows, I thought perhaps, just maybe, we're getting over that. (I also remember racism in America being declared dead when Obama was elected.) Then she had plastic surgery, and the pack of hyenas were on the attack again. Having been in any kind of sex industry, gives people an easier target for shamers to aim for. But if the targets weren't that easy, the slings and arrows would still be loosed upon society.
^^I don't know where you live but I'm Canadian so maybe I have a significantly different view of the way society treats women in general but I certainly don't agree with you that modern society looks down on women as a rule. I'm not going to comment on how society treated women in the past because it doesn't apply to women today. All I will say is that it wasn't good. In Canada a woman who make the same job as a man makes the same salary(granted at the end of the year their total income may be less but a reality of women is that they are able to give birth to other humans and that's bound to affect the time they spend at work Vs their male counterpart and sadly women often are the ones who take time off from work to take care of the children), women have access to paid abortions, women get 15 weeks of paid maternity leave(it can be more through their companies insurance), women have all the same rights as men. Ultimately I can't help but point out that if society as rule as always looked down on women then please explain to me why Countries like the UK have had at least two of their most beloved Monarchs were named Elizabeth and had the longest reign in history. Denmark's queen just abdicated after a 52 year reign. India, the UK and New Zealand to name a few have all had women as the head of their Government.
Are you sure about that? If a woman in Canada has worked for the past year or so prior to giving birth, isn't there a maternity/family leave program funded through Employment Insurance. I recall that it was modified a few years back so that a woman can take 18 months off though she receives the same overall amount just spread over the additional six months. It isn't a lot of money, but it's the law. Fathers qualify for this too. Both the mother and father could take six months off with full benefits.
Pat, I recall that you're in Quebec, so it may be different. Quebec has some of their own social programs that are different from the rest of Canada. Part of my source is that my oldest niece just gave birth to her second child and she's off for a full year on government benefits and her employer is legally obligated to re-employ her when she returns in a similar position and same salary/benefits.
[I just check the federal government page and it does seem that the benefits in Quebec are different. I didn't dive in to see what those difference are though.]
Back in April of 2023, Bree Olson posed a question on Twitter "What is something you wish never happened?" My reply was, "When I was younger, the death of close friends younger than I. And you?" Her reply was "Oh love, I have so many regrets." Take from that what you will, but I believe a part of it is her porn past.
1. Officially ending some past wrong does not in and of itself make everything better, or anything better beyond paper, really. There's the residual damage or "hangover"; there are unofficial & untraceable attitudes; there are systemic problems. All of those things continue to effect women today. The past is still incredibly relevant.
2. This is anecdotal and just really fuckin dumb. It's like saying electing Obama ended racism.
This may have already come up, though it could be for religious reasons. Jenna Presley and Rocco Reed both entered the Christian ministry and have spoken out publicly against porn. Heck, Rocco even spoke out against masturbation saying the Bible forbids it. Jenna and her husband run an anti-porn ministery and also have a YouTube channel often taking about the negative effects of porn not only on performers, but also viewers.
Also, trying to erase one's porn past might not always be about shame. It can also be that people have moved on or entered "square" jobs and there can be consequences if their porn past comes out for them or their families. Or, they may just be at a different place in their lives now.
If I'm ashamed of anything, it's living in a society that promotes shame-based attitudes against performers and sex workers. Also, the OP in this thread was from 2005 and we don't know whether the person who said that in the Yahoo group really was Aimee Tyler unless she confirmed this. Also, that was before there were so many free tube sites, which make it now even harder for former performers to erase their porn past.
I agree with JAGnLA, this talk of shame, degredation and humiliation is so hostile on this thread. Hopefully porn is now more acceptable and mainstream and can be a product of human behaviour to be happy and positive about, not like when most of us were young and had to endure guilt and hidING of our normal desires. HecK I'm still trying to "come out" as heterosexual, such was the suppression of the 1960'S/70's !
