There isn't a porn performers union is there? I think Sasha Grey said something about trying to start one. I really hope she does. The performers in porn should definitely have a union! If Sasha or anyone else tries this, we should support them in any way we can.
and one that can provide health care would be a + as well
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SpongeBub Deactivated User
im on ur rope climbin ur wall 30 Posts 2/07
Posted - Feb 19 2007 : 2:57PM
It would never work. As someone else said in another thread, the performers have no bargaining power. If one chick won't work, there's always another one who needs money for rent, bail for their suitcase pimp boyfriend or the next meth fix. Since so much of porn happens because of someone's desperation, you cannot apply union rules to porn like in other businesses.
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Arnold Deactivated User
27 Posts 2/07
Posted - Feb 19 2007 : 3:00PM
I disagree spongebub. If sash grey and other top performers organized, they would have A LOT of clout. Sure there is always some skank willing to do some scene for pocket change, but those scenes are not going to make the same kind of money that a scene with a legitimate star is going to make. And there could be a snowball effect if enough girls(and guys too)organize and stick together, more will join.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro 306 Posts 2/07
Posted - Feb 19 2007 : 3:03PM
Is everything out of you a negative rant?
"Always with those negative waves, Moriarity." ---Oddball (Donald Sutherland) in Kelly's Heroes
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SpongeBub Deactivated User
im on ur rope climbin ur wall 30 Posts 2/07
Posted - Feb 19 2007 : 3:35PM
I'm sorry I don't share your rosy view of porn. It's a pretty disgusting business, mostly full of disgusting and sad people. Seems like maybe you believe a bit too much of the illusion.
well it would be a great thing, and I wish anyone well who wants to go for it. It would be hell to organize. But if Sasha Grey made sone efffort along those lines, and follows through, she'll be a performer that has made a difference apart from how rivetting she is with a dick in that incredible ass.
Spongebub may have a point, his/her dismissive language aside…
if we could have universal health care in the U.S., tho…we can dream, right?
In current times, the average porn career is a few months. Some hang around longer. There is no clout because Greyhound runs 24/7 and there are a bunch of scenes in cans. Edit what you got, go on a European vacation (or Brazil, or new terrritory). Return and see what the agents got - not every Hollywood dream worked out. That short life cycle is very important here.
What porn stars, as a group, do need to do is stop living like strippers on steriods. Save what you got and put some money into health insurance. Plan long term. This is a wordy way of saying many need to grow up and recognize that they have to think of the future.
I'm sure many producers would be happy to provide medical insurance just as soon as the talent rates come down from the dizzying heights they are at. Something's gotta give and that is a great start. The reality is, that with the amount of money that these girls can make in a week, they should be more than able to purchase their own insurance. These girls are independent contracters as opposed to employees anyway. It should remain that way.
The problem is you can't really regulate what people are paid because it's an open market. And some of those "skanks" get paid really well ... If performers want a group health plan, that should be easy enough to organize with the help of a broker. The main impact of a union might be to bring a collective voice to bear on certain health policies, but much of it may only be ceremonial. So much of "top talent" with "clout" is also producing, shooting and profiting from the scenes, so in a way they are the factory owner AND the field hand. Honestly, the people in porn who really NEED a union are the non-contract/non-owning shooters and directors, whose fees are taking a huge bite right now. And, as you said, the problem there is this: Companies seem happy to let any monkey with a handicam shoot their porn, esp. if they can pay them crappy. So I don't know how any of this could work, exactly.
I think porn is pretty much a self-regulating industry. It's like watching Darwin's theory of "survival of the fittest" in action. Performers who don't take care of themselves or think about the future often leave the industry on bad terms. However the intelligent people (who don't get the credit they deserve) do have longevity and a positive impact on the industry.
I'm definitely all for some sort of union or at least unification within the industry to help keep performers safe and secure but it'll take a brave soul to even break ground on such a venture. As with anything it all comes down to personal accountability.
As I recall, there was some talk about the male pornstars starting a union during the last HIV outbreak. I don't know how true that was but, obviously, nothing came of it.
Sydnee Steele, Savanna Samson or None. 275 Posts 12/05
Posted - Feb 21 2007 : 8:21AM
It’s a 100% necessity! But unfortunately Mick was wrong. You don’t always get what you need. Right now Nicki Hunter is fighting for her life but has no health insurance to pay for the hospitalizations, the expensive treatments and the MD’s. If there were a pornstar union this wouldn’t happen. The union’s health insurance plan would be taking care of her medical expenses.
Moreover porn is a 12 Billion dollar industry and growing, always looking for new ways to deliver its goods to the market. Here is a woman who has put in years of service to the industry, has performed 100s of sex acts on film, and been photographed 1,000s of times. Those images of Ms. Hunter have been reproduced, circulated and recycled 1,000s if not 10,000s of times. All the while those images keep on making money for someone on the back end, by comparison Nicki’s intial fees are chump change. A porn star union with collective bargaining power translates into a more equitable distribution of the profits. In other words Nicki’s friends and family would not have to rely on making appeals on boards like this to get her needs met. Instead just like the song says Nicki’s life would no longer be consumed by need but by want.
Thanks for raising this topic again. We need to keep raising it!
Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99
Posted - Feb 21 2007 : 8:58AM
Freelancers buy their own major medical. Why does anyone need a union to buy insurance? I'd rather pay for my own insurance than join a union. It was a lot cheaper in CA than it is in ME where I currently live.
Performers already have bargaining power. It's called hold out on certain sex acts until you get the money you want for them. Market yourself and make sure you're in high demand.
Sydnee Steele, Savanna Samson or None. 275 Posts 12/05
Posted - Feb 21 2007 : 11:01AM
+1 Hold Out, which is essentially a strike, be it one person or one thousand persons. I think you guys just unintentionally endorsed the basic logic supporting unionization. If not what I am missing?
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Ejac Deactivated User
851 Posts 9/04
Posted - Feb 21 2007 : 12:59PM
Bumping rights?
Imagine - seniority clause written and amended to porn star union contract.
I agree with Croy. The short career of the average porn star makes unionization essentially impossible. Just think of how long it took Cesar Chavez to organize the farm workers.
This is another unskilled California labor issue, but with workers whose careers are measured in months. Farm workers may be seasonal, but they come back year after year. No continuity of labor = no organization.
Their best strategy would be to create a lobby and push for a state licensing requirement. This is what every other profession does when it wants to create barriers to entry to increase bargaining power. And with the potential health issues it seems as reasonable as needing a license to be a barber.
I think it's safe to say that we're a long way from any legislature taking up a bill that can be construed as helping the porn industry.
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AlexPanzer Deactivated User
1593 Posts 6/03
Posted - Feb 21 2007 : 9:23PM
+1 for hold. Money in exchange for sex and model release without any extra obligation and unions. Fuck on camera, sign the form, get paid and move on to the next scene.
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AlexPanzer Deactivated User
1593 Posts 6/03
Posted - Feb 21 2007 : 9:36PM
I think that people in the porno industry are very expandable, especially performers. Every day there are people who turn 18 years of age - potential talent.
Why not? Lawmakers would love to get their hooks of regulation into the industry. It would be viewed by those inclined to do so as an alternative for controlling something the state is forced to accept. And it wouldn't be good for most of the industry, just the performers. Besides maybe just the threat would be enough to get some leverage, which would be the goal for the actors.
What I'm wondering is do they intentionally cut their porn careers short or do they just stop getting work? I can't imagine any reasonably hot porn chick not being able to find somebody who'd hire her......even if she is a bit older than she was 6 months ago. Hell, even 30 is still relatively young for a girl who takes care of herself.
Edited by - randomprecision on 2/21/2007 9:58:03 PM
For another thought... unions are supposedly existing for the purpose of making sure the workers are treated right, given a fair day's wage for a fair day's work, etc. If that's the case, then what's an agent for? Take it one step forward and why do professional sports need both unions and agents...
"Vegetarianism for me is about saying ‘yes’ to things - even meat." - Coupling
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AlexPanzer Deactivated User
1593 Posts 6/03
Posted - Feb 21 2007 : 11:46PM
Both, but my initial idea was on that they can be replaced easily and fast.
Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99
Posted - Feb 22 2007 : 8:48AM
Good porn performers are not unskilled workers nor are they expendable. No one who is good at what they do needs to pay a union to negotiate for them. Little things like showing up on time with a positive attitude go a long way in this industry. Reliable talent is as needed as fresh faces. A producer/director can only take so much risk with each movie.
Yes, producers continue to make money off stars with comps. But stars can continue to make money off their name that producers help market.
Sydnee Steele, Savanna Samson or None. 275 Posts 12/05
Posted - Feb 22 2007 : 9:31AM
This is just stating the obvious but as an anti-union argument its not rooted in fact or history. Look at the history of entertainment industry unions. Does Brad Pitt need SAG? Does Alex Rodriguez need the MLB Players Union? They'll tell you time and again, yes. They will do whatever the union asks of them to defend their own rights and privileges as well as the those of their less talented counterparts.
Hypothetically speaking the unionization of porn performers would do the same types of things for its members from the Stormy Daniels' to the faceless mopes. And would evoke similary die hard allegiance that we've seen from the other established entertainment unions.
Look: OSHA standards should be applied to porn. Depositing a pint of come into the perforated asshole of a female performer is literally life-threatening.
It's clear the industry won't police itself, and no one trusts the govt to do it.
So collective bargaining is essential.
Looking at Kink.com's ethical employment practices reminded me that it can be done. Here's a company that's as hardcore as they come – but they don't use racist, misogynist or life-threatening stunts to make their money.
Because of all the variables discussed above (short employment periods, intelligent distrust of the government) it will surely be difficult.
BUT those with some power, singling out AIM, could certainly include a unionization sign-up card with every test.
Bet there'd be a union inside of a year if that happened.
What would be the point in a Union, the Teamsters and the mob would just take it over. All the girls would start having to pay 10% to fat Tony as Union fees!
It takes a few years to become a full member in a union. How is that going to work when 95% of the performers can't make it past the first year? By that point they've also shown themselves to be a valuable commodity who can demand more money for their performances than the average star. Are those performers willing to come down in price in order for a BA to sit on his or her ass for them?
"Vegetarianism for me is about saying ‘yes’ to things - even meat." - Coupling
Sydnee Steele, Savanna Samson or None. 275 Posts 12/05
Posted - Feb 28 2007 : 3:31PM
That's ironic because modern porn was invented by organized crime. When they're not ripping off the talent they're giving them a raw deal. The point of a porn union is to leverage a few extra shekels out of 'fat Tony's' oversized behind.
People shouldn't be, but 'Personnel Departments' became 'Human Resources' because of the replacable widget philosophy. Any job where people can come in untrained and learn on the job is considered unskilled, however different the reality is. The difference between a bad waiter and a good one is immense, but society doesn't consider them so far apart in value.
You have beautiful flesh. GIVE IT TO US! 9 Posts 1/07
Posted - Mar 1 2007 : 2:44AM
Some thoughts:
- Forming a union is a First Amendment right (freedom of assembly), not an opportunity for government oversight. Porn performers have the same rights as everyone else.
- Collective bargaining power among the performers (as well as the directors, the sound guys, the musicians, the cameramen, the editors and the people who pack the DVDs in their containers) is essential BECAUSE porn is a billion-dollar industry. Since good pay and benefits are harmful to the interests of stockholders (as in any industry), only by standing together can the performers defend their interests against such concentrated economic power.
- This isn't just an issue of health care (though it does have special significance in porn) - it's an issue of human rights, dignity, and the fight against exploitation.
- As for the extremely high turnover rate, most businesses depend on exactly that to keep labor costs down. It makes organizing difficult, hence management's approval. Any study would show that unionized industries have the highest levels of job security, and that it's not a coincidence. A porn union may enable starlets to prolong their careers past their 20th birthdays.
Sorry if this sounds like Marxist propaganda, but this is stuff all working people should think about (and the media machine is designed to make sure that we don't).
#SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele 5110 Posts 3/03
Posted - Mar 1 2007 : 3:39AM
It doesn't; it sounds like union propaganda from 50 or 75 years ago. It's 2007, dude. Almost nobody, except maybe illegal alien hotel maids and janitors, can listen to statements like yours without rolling their eyes or giggling.
Introducing Brandi Swan
Posted - Feb 19 2007 : 2:53PM
