disclaimer: I know that it's sometimes next to impossible to have some sort of ethical discussion on this forum, some think anything goes with no concearn about the models. I've never watched gokkun before, so I decided to watch american gokkun 11 the other day (could only stand 10 minutes) there are many things that I don't like in porn but it was the worst thing I've ever watched. (I'm glad the series was not continued) Some people are over-sensitive and think everything is degrading, by comparison blowbangs, rough gangbangs etc. means that the guys will get a lot of physical pleasure out of it (and the girls probably something out of it) I don enjoy girls getting facials to a certain extent. But gokkun just feels like something with the sole purpose of deriving some sort of sick mental pleasure from watching the girls get the most degradation and humiliation possible drinking the loads of 20-40 strangers, in that particular movie Sasha Knox drinking it from a dog bowl and Beverly Hills wearing a funnel where the guys could dump their loads in. I don't understand how anyone could get some sort of pleasure out of it, especially thinking about the health risk it means for the female models to do such a scene. For those who enjoy gokkun movies, what part about it gets you off? Is it a mental thing?
I can't speak to the appeal of the American Gokkun films as I've never seen them. But I do get off on the lighter degrading acts that are commonplace in more mainstream gonzo: A2M, DP, DA, DV, gangbangs, face-fucking, and facials. I'm sure some members here will dispute whether those acts are degrading. To them they might not be. But what is or is not degrading is a subjective evaluation and my personal one is that all those acts all are to a greater or lesser extent. It's a big part of why I like them. So why do I get off on these degrading acts? The easy assumption would be that I hate women. That's the answer most anti-porn advocates would put forth and it's one that I feared was true about myself for a longtime. That I harbored some deep-seated, unconscious resentment of women, that I was a closeted misogynist. But after reflecting on it a for many years, I've come to believe it's a bit more nuanced and complicated than that. My enjoyment of degrading sex acts doesn't derive from any intense misogynistic impulses. I'm sure for some porn consumers that's probably the case. For me rather, it's about power. I remember many years ago seeing a news story about how one of the most common fantasies people had in the US was telling off their boss. I think that's indicative of the fact that in most peoples' internal fantasy lives being powerful is a very common theme. Look at adolescent boys with comic books depicting super-strong heroes capable of doing anything. Or when you obsess over having the perfect zinger for something someone said to you earlier in the day. People, possibly men most of all, want to feel powerful and when you extend that commonplace desire to the sexual realm you end up with something that looks like gonzo porn. By degrading a woman in their fantasy life, men are in a sense exalting or elevating themselves. And not only is she being degraded, she loves being degraded and desires you even more for the very act of being degraded. You can do anything to this beautiful woman and you're entirely immune to any judgement or rejection. You're in complete control. Oh, and you've got a great body and a massive prick to boot. It's the ultimate power fantasy. So yeah, I think the desire for power is what fuels a lot of the degrading porn scenarios. However, we live in a sexist society so inevitably this commonplace desire to be powerful gets filtered through all our fucked up social norms and mindsets. Hence why these scenarios are often tinged with, if not outright bleeding, misogyny. Edited by - Mister Fahrenheit on 10/2/2015 10:43:46 PM
I just think its fascinating to see what some people will do for money. At the same time I'm watching (and getting turned on by) such scenes, I'm marvelling at the fact that there are actually women out there in the world who willingly sign up to be throat-fucked until they vomit or eat the jizz of 50 sweaty, overweight guys. All on camera, all irrevocable. I'm sorry but if I were a chick there's no amount of money they could pay me to do stuff like that - so what goes on in the minds of these girls? Beats me. I'm not generally a fan of analysing this sort of thing for fear it'll lose its appeal. But I sure as hell am grateful to these ladies for putting 'flesh' on the bones of things that would otherwise only exist in my imagination. Am I a misogynist? Well, I'm married (happily) and have female friends. It's probably true to say I'm guilty of placing women in 'categories' - but don't we all do that?
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Oct 3 2015 : 5:00AM
Gokkun is just an extreme manifestation of female sexual subjugation and females being subjugate to mens sexual desires is going to appeal to alot of men , myself included . Personally for me the appeal of porn is about the women and how they respond and what they make themselves willing to do for men etc , i like to see the womens eyes and all these close ups of genitalia hold limited interest for me. I find ghetto gaggers quite watchable primarily for the pre-scene chat with Jimmy and the running commentary much of which could be regarded as degrading to the female performers - i guess it comes down to wether you are inclined to be hyper-sensitive to porn stars feelings or whether you think its fair game with a paycheck.
Excellent analysis! Yes, the idea of a woman not knowing the word "No", that willingly and smilingly goes way beyond boundaries for your sake is for me the reason to love many porn scenes with actions many would see as extreme. That means that for me the reason is not the degrading. Degrading acts are about male power (preferably over female bosses (not schoolgirls)) and boundlessness.
I think it's different a gangbangs and everything that includes some sort of pshysical sex acts like DA och DV equals psyhical pleasure for atleast some of the ones doing it. I like ATM myself, but sometimes it can be a bit much with girls drinking enemas coming out of another girl's ass, some like dirty atm I think that is kinda gross, or girls drinking cum or piss out of their assholes with straws.
The recent Facial Abuse scene with Amelia Dire was the cruelest thing I've ever seen. I do like a lot of their scenes, but every now and then there's one that is literally unwatchable. How can they do those things to such a cute and vulnerable girl? I really felt for her.
^^ Yeah, I'm not into milk enemas or any water-sports stuff. As I said, I'm into the lighter side of degradation. But I think the stuff I'm into exists on the same spectrum of degradation as the stuff I'm not into. It's just a question of degree. The physical/mental pleasure dichotomy your attempting to make doesn't really hold up. An orgasm is pleasurable for a man no matter where he shoots it. So why do so many porn fans get a special thrill out of seeing a guy coat the girl's face or shoot in her mouth? If enjoying porn was solely about projecting yourself into the scene and imagining the physical pleasure you would be feeling if you were there, porn fans would be totally neutral about facials. Edited by - Mister Fahrenheit on 10/3/2015 1:21:47 PM
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Oct 3 2015 : 9:40PM
So basically this is just a reboot of the rosebud thread where OP acknowledges a spectrum of preferences, acknowledges his place on that spectrum, then condemns anything beyond his arbitrarily decided place on that spectrum. People's tastes vary. What further explanation do you need? Why should anyone else have to justify their preferences to you? Yes, lots of people here feel that anything goes between informed, consenting adults. If it's hard for you to understand how someone could get off on something that you find objectionable, I'm sure it's even harder for you to wrap your mind around the idea that the performers might actually enjoy it too, but that is often the case. As stated in the other thread, your concern for the performers rings very hollow when once again you only seem to be concerned about the models who perform acts you don't like anyway, and seem to have no worries at all about the ones performing acts you do like.
^ On initial reading, the OP's post just came over to me as 'what turns you guys - the ADTers - on about degrading scenes such as gokkuns?' Having read your post, I re-read it and, yep, he gives himself away there at the end of his third paragraph when he expresses 'concern' for the health of the performers. More fool me for falling for it. The thing is, I don't think there's much to be worried about from a medical standpoint with a gokkun, anyway. Presumably every guy in the room has to show proof of freedom from STDs before they're allowed near the girl. That being the case, the worst that might occur is that the girl gets somewhat nauseous. I'm still not buying that any girl - well, unless you're Annette Schwarz - actually enjoys stuff like gokkuns or the sort of treatment dished out by, say, Facial Abuse. Has any girl ever, in interview, expressed her enthusiasm for this stuff with such conviction that you can't help but believe it's her actual opinion and not just what she feels expected to say? In any event, wouldn't a display of enthusiasm be counter-productive for such scenes anyway? It's the 'torment and humiliation' (staged as it might be) that presumably gets most viewers off. Pretty hard to 'degrade' someone who's smiling throughout. Personally, I like to see girls reacting favourably to gokkuns/bukkake - that's more of a turn-on for me. With Facial Abuse, I get that's not what they're about but it still has its place in my affections. Would love to see a FA/bukkake/gokkun mash-up - now that would make interesting viewing.
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Oct 4 2015 : 3:05AM
I don't see how expressing concern for a performer is some kind of 'giveaway' of agenda. I don't have an issue with most 'extreme' porn on moral grounds (gokkun strikes me as more silly and sophomoric than anything else) and just what is and what isn't degrading is such a wide, subjective thing, plus the pleasure in degradation that is part of some of the further end of the S&M spectrum are all things to consider. But I've definitely seen some scenes where the woman seems in genuine distress and the scene doesn't seem to be consensual. Thinking that's not okay doesn't seem like hypocrisy, after all consent is essentially the difference between S&M and actual assault. Those scenes are much rarer than those who are unfamiliar or anti-porn may think, but they do exist and should be condemned when they are released.
I don't know about that. I love watching blowbangs and gang bangs, but being naked and masturbating with 4, 6, 8, 10, 12+ other men is something I have zero interest in doing.
^ Kinda my point. Which comes across if you don't truncate my quote. Edited by - Mister Fahrenheit on 10/4/2015 4:07:40 AM
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Oct 4 2015 : 4:40AM
^a9nostic ; I find it hard to have any sympathy for any Facial Abuse type scenarios where the performers have volunteered for the treatment and are willing performers. And feeling sympathy based on the performer looking cute is kinda a questionable motivation (although understandable). And the post scene sob stories about being tricked into it etc ? mmhh well again i find it hard to feel sympathy for wannabee pornstars who allow themselves to be manipulated like this but ultimately could walk out of the scene at any time. As blacksix alludes sympathy (and condemnation) is better reserved for those scenes where the performers are genuinely acting under duress and who have no choice in what is happening to them as does occur (mainly abroad).
^^ Sorry, I misread what you were saying. I'd like to change my first sentence to: I agree.
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Randy03 Deactivated User
121 Posts 11/13
Posted - Oct 4 2015 : 5:49AM
Yeah, that's a good assessment, and can also be applied to prostitution. Providing no duress or coercion is involved, then it is down to individual herself.
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Dragon Sign Deactivated User
3381 Posts 12/13
Posted - Oct 4 2015 : 7:39AM
This sounds to me like taking a bath in shit like "football, and the most destroying injuries ever" or something. Strange focus.
So you have no sympathy for someone who, for whatever reason, felt that appearing in a Facial Abuse scene where she is guaranteed to be verbally, psychologically, and physically abused was an option that she should take? You don't wonder at all how bad her *other* options must have been? A really fucked up thing you got paid for is still a really fucked up thing. And sympathizing for something cute is not a "questionable motive"... it's probably one of the most important dispositions to the progeneration of our species. Ask any sleep deprived, covered in shit/piss/vomit new parent that would do it all again without stopping for a second to think about it. Your comments remind me of a serial killer.
This might be a little OT but does anyone know of any scenes where the girl(s) actually use the word 'degrade' or 'degraded', either talking to their co-performers or the viewer? I saw a trailer once for a JM Productions movie - maddeningly, I can't remember what it was - where a girl says to camera "You like watching me get degraded? Huh?" as she's getting piledriven. Stuck in my mind ever since as something incredibly hot but I never tracked the movie down. Anyone know of any other instances?
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Oct 5 2015 : 4:02AM
^a9nostic - So doing FA is "a really fucked up thing" is it. Reality check - this is the job these girls choose. For some people doing porn as a vocation is "a really fucked up thing" in itself but personally i respect the girls choice to do it (heck i might do it myself if i was female) But it is the job they do and for me i have the same sympathy for a girl getting roughed up by FA as i do for a pro football player getting roughed up on the field or a boxer getting a bloody nose. Parents dont just care for their kids if they look cute, they care for them whatever they look like - your missing the point why your sympathy based on thinking a specific girl looks cute is unsound. Edited by - Ben Mockridge on 10/5/2015 4:03:26 AM
Your arguments are either inane in the first place or not responsive to anything I actually said, but that doesn't matter: When people start arguing that FA is not fucked up, something is wrong that can't be fixed.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Oct 5 2015 : 12:17PM
Facial Abuse alum Danica Dillon (edit: has shot for them THREE times) said:Mackenzee Pierce wrote:I'm not saying that everyone who performs for FA or most people who perform for FA have a good or neutral experience. The truth is that we don't know what goes on behind the scenes at each individual shoot or at the majority of shoots. All we have is the finished product, and it's naive to take that at face value. Edited by - misspornUSA on 10/5/2015 1:40:27 PM
However the detractors of FA want to dress it up, the long and short of what they're saying is: I disapprove of this and so should others. The scenes are freely available for prospective performers to view beforehand; moreover, should they decide to take the plunge I understand they are free to 'tap out' at any point. I don't get what the issue is. What I do find difficult to get my head around are quotes like those of Mackenzee Pierce (above), where she acknowledges that what she's doing is purposely meant to degrade women - not just her, personally, women in general - and is presumably okay with that. I genuinely find this simultaneously disturbing and arousing.
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BB88 Deactivated User
299 Posts 4/14
Posted - Oct 5 2015 : 1:15PM
Haven't been a member of FA in over a year. Someone mentioned the Amelia Dire scene that they couldn't watch it. What happened? What is up with that scene? Curious now...
I take nothing at face value. You are asking me to update my position based on testimony of a girl who wanted to continue to work with them (3 times, I think). You are asking me to believe that the FA guys are really the FX guys. You are asking me to make a generalization to the most desperate unknown girl from the experiences of erstwhile A-Lister Mackenzie Pierce. You are asking me to believe that FA is really a treasure trove of heretofore undiscovered Oscar calibre actresses who express emotional depth as well as Meryl Streep or Angelina Jolie. All that or... some of these women are being abused beyond what they could handle. Look, I am a subscriber and have been for a long time. I like the vast majority of their stuff. I only asked how they could do some of the things they do because I know that I couldn't. Sign up, watch the Amelia Dire scene, and tell me you didn't want to just hug her and take her to Ben and Jerry's. I like rough scenes and I simulate some of that stuff in my real life. For example I just could not, say, spit on even a well-adjusted human being and I wonder why those guys can spit on a person that appears to be quite emotionally fragile. I was curious, that's all. I didn't make it into a moral issue.
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BB88 Deactivated User
299 Posts 4/14
Posted - Oct 5 2015 : 2:34PM
Wtf happened in the Amelia Dire scene that affected people??
I love the girl too, but I hope I never see her again. The part where she confesses that she's schizophrenic and the part where she admits that her rather artless tattoo encompassing almost her entire forearm is to cover up self inflicted cuts. The actual sex is not even the roughest they've done. Another one that really got me was Haley Paige's quote that went something like "All I want is to find a loving husband". Amelia made me feel the same way... two girls as beautiful as Haley and Amelia should end up somewhere else than a) Dead or b) getting fucked into a quivering mess on Facial Abuse.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Oct 5 2015 : 3:02PM
Danica wasn't defending FA in that quote. Rather, she was talking about the crucial difference between shooting rough porn and the real life rough sex (rape imo) that she had with Josh Duggar. I did not ask you to make a generalization. In fact, I wrote: "I'm not saying that everyone who performs for FA or most people who perform for FA have a good or neutral experience." I continued: "The truth is that we don't know what goes on behind the scenes at each individual shoot or at the majority of shoots." Far from asking that viewers make a positive generalization, I am promoting agnosticism due to a lack of information. For the record, I am not supporting or defending FA here. One of the reasons I unsubscribed from them is because the shoots had become too sadistic for my liking. All I'm saying is that we don't have a full enough picture of what generally goes on at FA to be able to judge. You appear to have concluded that they are victimizing women, while I don't think that it's reasonable to even make a tentative conclusion until we know considerably more and what usually takes place offscreen at FA's shoots. Edited by - misspornUSA on 10/5/2015 3:14:20 PM That the woman performing is psychologically/emotionally fucked up in some way has undeniably become part of FA's shtick. Personally, I am not going to assume that a performer is being honest within a scene when she is saying something that the audience might want to hear or that fits in with the overall theme of her scene specifically and the site's content in general. Neither will I assume that the performer is lying. Why? Because I don't know. Edited by - misspornUSA on 10/5/2015 3:31:59 PM
http://clayrabeau.blogspot.se/2010/12/hard-city-indeed.html?zx=1e912bebf0dc348d "the guys were so aggressive that at one point I literally had to stand up and push with all of my strength to get off of him. there is no point in having a safe word when you can't talk. I was clawing at their legs and slapping their thighs and they still wouldn't let up. So I took another breather and now I had 5 minutes of footage under my belt" Perhaps some girls find the filming of those scenes quite alright, but that doesn't justify the fact that probably a lot of girls probably get mentally and physically damaged from doing them.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Oct 5 2015 : 6:00PM
^Why is it probable that "a lot" of FA's performers had a horrible overall experience and that only "some" of their performers didn't? On what basis have you concluded that Clayra's experience is normative?
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Ben Mockridge Deactivated User
382 Posts 9/15
Posted - Oct 5 2015 : 6:38PM
^geralt Yeh ive read the clayrabeau blog . FA clearly didnt suit her . She did the right thing realising her mistake and pulling the plug but that dosnt mean theres any wrong doing on the part of FA. (or that there is anything intrinsically wrong with the FA modus operandi) To blame FA would be like me taking money to fight Mike Tyson and then complain when i get a bloody nose - better just realise youve made a bad choice and remove yourself from the situation , theres no need to start mud-slinging.
Must admit, I want to watch the Amelia Dire scene now (though the stuff with the gummy worms I find a bit, well, stupid) and the Ghetto Gaggers one where they funnel puke into the girl's ass. I'm a bad, bad man.
I don't like the aggressive porn and I stay away from it, but my issues with it are this:
You still see it in supposedly non-aggressive porn. For example I enjoy watching gang bangs but find many series like Gangbanged, Gangland and even many Gangbang Auditions scenes, way too rough for me. I know this isn't really fair, but there are certain people and groups who are convinced that all porn is degrading to women, and that all men in reality hate women - and nothing you could say or do could change their mind. This stuff just allows them to point and yell "See, I told you porn degrades women and all men hate women". Edited by - Simple Simon on 10/10/2015 11:21:27 AM
Porn can become dirty and nasty but I seriously and totally despise even a remote idea of porn being used for female degradation...that is seriously sick and disgusting...
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Oct 6 2015 : 10:43PM
I linked to a preview of Amelia's second scene for FA, but I think that a9nostic may have been talking about her first scene instead. I watched the trailer for that scene at the same site, and in that trailer she claims that she's a paranoid schizophrenic.
I do agree with you there. Rough/aggressive porn is not my thing and the fact that there seems to more and more of it in "non-aggressive porn" is just annoying.
We can't go through life saying "I don't know" in every case where an event wasn't directly observed. You can look at indirect indicators. In this case, the things required to also be believed if I want to believe that FA *didn't* abuse girls beyond their ability to cope... are just less believable than the things required to also be believed if they *did*. Anyway, I didn't want to have a discussion about FA and their morals or motives, or whatever, and certainly at no point did I say they were victimizing anyone. I just wondered how they could overcome their nurturing impulse.
Isn't that what you just did with Danica and Mackenzie? If you weren't implying that it was normative, then why did you bother even bringing it up as two cases out of hundreds is not very compelling.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Oct 7 2015 : 1:59AM
I did not write, nor even imply, that direct observation was the only evidence that would satisfy me. In a dialogue, it is helpful to read what the other person wrote, and to then respond to what that person wrote. Otherwise, you are merely in dialogue with yourself rather than with the other person.
Can you honestly watch a dozen FA scenes, and never once think to yourself, "What the fuck is wrong with these people?". Again, I like rough scenes a lot. My wife says I remind her of the guy from 50 Shades of Gray (haven't seen it, but I get the point)... but the FA guys go beyond all others and seem like they're trying to physically and emotionally scar these girls. I'm not making a generalization about an industry that I obviously enjoy, but these guys and probably only these guys seem to be a breed apart and fundamentally different.
I don't need a lesson in forensics nor rhetoric. You did imply it by saying that "we don't know" when there's clearly enough evidence to be reasonably sure if even in an inductive sense.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Oct 7 2015 : 2:06AM
Didn't I already respond to your false claim that I was asking you to generalize?The quotes I provided from Danica and Mackenzie are relevant only to the extent that they demonstrate that we should be skeptical of the reality of what we see in porn.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Oct 7 2015 : 2:07AM
Knowledge can only be gained by direct observation? Not in my opinion, which is why I did not imply that. There is not clearly enough evidence. We need to know more about what generally goes on behind the scenes. As it stands now, we just have a few conflicting accounts and we don't even know how representative they are of FA scenes in general. Of course, I'm just repeating myself, since I already wrote that " I don't think that it's reasonable to even make a tentative conclusion until we know considerably more and what usually takes place offscreen at FA's shoots", but for whatever reason you just chose to ignore that in favor of criticizing something I never wrote about direct observation. Edited by - misspornUSA on 10/7/2015 2:12:00 AM Edited by - misspornUSA on 10/7/2015 2:20:15 AM
We directly observe the abuse in just about every scene but you prefer to believe there is no abuse and that they are FX mavens on par with Industrial Light and Magic. That all of these girls are just really good actresses. That Danica did not have Qui Bono reason to say what she said. That Mackenzie Pierce's clout did not affect the way she was treated. I am wondering what evidence you would need before you came to the conclusion that some of the girls are abused beyond their ability to cope. It seems like no evidence would suffice because you discount even your own eyeballs.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - Oct 7 2015 : 3:04AM
^I already wrote about the context of Danica's comments. Mackenzie did not have any clout when she shot for FA, and frankly I doubt that she ever even had any clout at all. In any case, I am not denying the extreme nature of FA's content. What I am doing is admitting that we don't have the full story. Some years ago, a forum member directly observed the abuse of the pornstar Hannah West in Oral Consumption 10 and started a thread bemoaning the treatment of the poor girl. Hannah replied:And a second reply:Hannah was not acting in that scene, and her reactions were raw and real, but that does not mean that we should conclude that she was victimized. Neither should we assume that all or most performers in such scenes like being degraded, or that their crying is nothing more than a natural reaction. There can literally be two performers reacting in a scene (crying, etc.) in exactly the same way, different from each other only in that one is thinking like Hannah while the other one feels victimized. The difference is not obvious on the surface, and I'm not just going to assume that I know what's going on when I really don't and am only guessing.
