[This message has been edited by sonic (edited May 22, 2000).]
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Equilibrium Ep 2 - review by fu_q| Author | Post |
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| torris Senior Member  Deep within Mila's anus 1827 Posts 1/00 |  Posted - Apr 30 2000 : 12:54PMI have now come across 3 Private DVDs that have no sound on them African Dream Indecency 1 Indecency 2 This is very disappointing and unacceptable in a high end adult label that charges premium prices for their product. This lack of quality control has made me wonder about purchasing any other Private titles till they get their shit togehter and fix these glitches I have a Toshiba deck so it's not like I'm using some Kmart brand name. I hope to be able to ship these titles back for exchange, but I'm none to happy [Link] |
| sonic Deactivated User 1178 Posts 12/99 | Posted - Apr 30 2000 : 3:24PM [This message has been edited by sonic (edited May 22, 2000).] [Link] |
| torris Senior Member Deep within Mila's anus 1827 Posts 1/00 |  Posted - Apr 30 2000 : 3:34PMtorris I feel your anger, I have been through this many times! The thing is that some of these companies love *ucking with the aluminum foil that is inside the disc... ====== What makes me pissed is that I've got several cheap disks by the likes of Sunshine, NuTech, Metro etc and only once have I ever had a problem: with a Vivid Blame It on Ginger that just wouldn't play. Not Private. Now I'm gonna be wondering if every disk I order from Private (and believe me, I've been buying them as a *rule*) is gonna give me hassle and make me have to go through the headache of a return. It's the equivalent of buying a Porsche with a starter problem. [Link] |
| Brett Member USA 8 Posts 5/00 | Posted - May 3 2000 : 7:09AM I've posted a solution to the sound problem you describe: [url=467357]https://www.adultdvdtalk.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=691&forum_id=1&cat_id=1</A [Link] |
| torris Senior Member Deep within Mila's anus 1827 Posts 1/00 | Posted - May 3 2000 : 9:32PM torris, I've posted a solution to the sound problem you describe: Thanks for the headsup but it didn't work. They had no sound on the DVD Rom drive I played them on too. I must have too primitive model of Toshiba, b/c there was no way to change the digital bitstream to analog option on the Sound menu. [Link] |
| Brett Member USA 8 Posts 5/00 | Posted - May 5 2000 : 5:40AM I'm quite certain this will work for you, though you will need to have audio cables hooked up from the stereo analog outputs on the Toshiba. My DVD-ROM drive handles the sound on these discs. I suppose it's possible that your decoder won't handle MPEG format sound, though that would be a tad unusual. [Link] |
| jb0911 Member North Hollywood, CA USA 74 Posts 1/00 | Posted - May 5 2000 : 10:00AM I haven't forgotten about you. I've been going back and forth with the folks in Barcelona on this (without a lot of luck so far). Communicating is difficult due to the time difference. I just received this reply last night: "Of course I will contact our authoring studio to see if the problem could come from any software update or similar from their side... I think that it can't come from the replication because a replication problem would affect complete parts of the disc (audio+video) and not only audio. I understood that the problem was affecting the 5 audio tracks, not only English... Tell it to me if you think that they are talking about English only. I hope to get back to you soon, but this is the kind of problem difficult to identify (only on some players, only some people...)." (Faron again here) Has anyone tried the different language tracks? I'd like to confirm this for them while they are looking into the problem. Also, someone mentioned having the problem on a Sony player. What model was that? I've tried the discs in two different Sony machines I have access to and have been unable to duplicate the problem. I have not personally been able to test the discs on a Toshiba yet. I will finally have access to a Toshiba on Tuesday of next week so that I can check the discs on that machine myself. Thanks so much for your patience while this is being investigated. Faron [Link] |
| Brett Member USA 8 Posts 5/00 | Posted - May 5 2000 : 10:52AM In another thread, I posted my take on this situation and a workaround that's been successful for me. Perhaps this will shed some light: [Link] |
| jb0911 Member North Hollywood, CA USA 74 Posts 1/00 | Posted - May 5 2000 : 1:04PM Yes, saw the post just after I finished my last one. This looks to be VERY helpful! Thank you so much! I've already sent the information you posted to all concerned parties in Europe. I should think that the info you've given would allow them to home in on the problem immediatley. As always, I'll keep everyone informed as I receive more info. Thanks again!! Faron [Link] |
| torris Senior Member Deep within Mila's anus 1827 Posts 1/00 | Posted - May 5 2000 : 4:36PM Hi, (Faron again here) Has anyone tried the different language tracks? I'd like to confirm this for them while they are looking into the problem. ========== There is not one iota of sound on these defective DVDs. Nowhere on the disk. they play fine, the video is fine, and everything. They have no sound. not on my player - even tried switching to stereo rather than dolby digital and they don't have sound on dvd rom drives Torris [Link] |
| torris Senior Member Deep within Mila's anus 1827 Posts 1/00 | Posted - May 5 2000 : 4:39PM Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. The audio settings you need to adjust are in the setup menu on your Toshiba player. Which model Tosiba are you using? Older models will only allow access to the setup menu when playback is stopped. ========= Toshiba SD 3006. When I go into the set up menu and choose audio the only choices are language prefernce and something called descriptive service My DVD-ROM drive handles the sound on these discs. I suppose it's possible that your decoder won't handle MPEG format sound, though that would be a tad unusual. ====== yes, the DVD rom drive is brand new. [Link] |
| carl Member australia 10 Posts 4/00 | Posted - May 8 2000 : 8:14AM for private dvds and STILL have errors like this............. [Link] |
| ddavis73 Member at my computer 20 Posts 12/99 |  Posted - May 11 2000 : 12:03PMI took the DVD to my other player, an RCA, and it played fine. I hope to spend more time with the Sony player tomorrow after the kids are at school. Yes, I put another disk in the Sony and it played fine, so the problem is definately not the DVD player. Doug [Link] |
| torris Senior Member Deep within Mila's anus 1827 Posts 1/00 | Posted - May 13 2000 : 9:40AM [I took the DVD to my other player, an RCA, and it played fine. ======= See this is discouraging. To the guy from Private US, did you find anything out? I'm probably not going to order anymore Private DVDs out of the assumption that it is russian roulette with the sound. I don't think I need any disk that badly that would require me to buy a second DVD player. For me lack of sound is as disconcerting as grainy picture. I didn't think that would be the case, but found myself quickly tiring of watching the DVD when there isn't any sound coming through I wonder if they will recalibrate the pressings on these defective Private titles and offer trades like Evil Angel has done. Something is definitely wrong in the mastering/pressing process with Private DVDs. Buyer beware [Link] |
| Drew Black broken crankshaft 8011 Posts 9/99 | Posted - May 13 2000 : 3:43PM A DVD is a precision item that that goes through many steps in the manufacturing process. The process and eqiument used in manufacturing a DVD is not cheap. The cost of the materials and manufacturing process is far more than a few pennies. (I also don't believe that they are made of fiberglass.) Amaray cases are a fucking piece of injection molded ABS plastic. They do cost pennies to manufacture and when purchased in volume cost far less than a couple of quarters. Most of Private's movies are much higher caliber than 90+% of the other studios out there. I'm assume that their content costs more to produce. I am personally thankful that we have a representative here from Private active in the ADT community and working to resolve these issues. [This message has been edited by Drew Black (edited May 13, 2000).] [Link] |
| Janitor Retired Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99 | Posted - May 13 2000 : 6:21PM because mainstream studios sell way more copies. when the matrix hit the 1 million mark, vivid entertainment (who has both hardcore and softcore) sold 1 million discs in total (correction: i think it was $1 million in DVD - which is considerably less than 1 million discs.) moreover mainstream online retailers are losing money in the hopes of making it back when they go public. adult retailers have to cover the costs of operations (they don't get venture capital funding.) adult companies are making very little money selling dvds. this could be the first time that private was made aware of this sound problem. they don't have many outlets to get consumer feedback. i'm sure Faron has to go through many channels to get to the bottom of the problem - and many more channels to resolve it. and i'm thankful that he cares enough to do that. [This message has been edited by StephDunn (edited May 13, 2000).] [Link] |
| Drew Black broken crankshaft 8011 Posts 9/99 | Posted - May 13 2000 : 6:43PM The issues that you bring up reflec the quality of the data placed on the disc. What I am referring to is the actual process of manufacturing a disc, not the steps involved in creating the content, editing it, transcibing it into digital format (if the source isn't digital), and creating duplication masters. There are manufactuing differences for features such as multiple layers and sides but they generally don't affect the content of the DVD. All of the issues that you bring up have to do with the data that is placed on a DVD, not the process of manufacturing the DVD. DVD is a digital media distribution format. The various steps involved for creating the data distributed on a DVD are up to the individual companies producing them. When software companies release their programs on DVD do you question why the latest video game sells for $34.99 and the latest edition of Microsoft Office is $395? They are both distributed on DVD. Shouldn't they be the same price? Obviously not. You are paying for the relative value of the data distributed on the DVD. (Or simply the price that the market is willing to pay for the data.) Steph also has a good point regarding the relative volume of mainstream DVDs vs. adult DVDs. From what I have heard an initial production run for an adult DVD is anywhere from 1000 to 5000 DVDs. Mainstream initial production runs are easily 1 hex to 2 hex larger than that. Mainstream DVDs and adult DVDs are manufactured using the same equipment. I believe it takes the same amount of time to set up the machines to produce 50 DVDs as it does to produce 500,000. Machine setup time is costly. The setup time is amortized into the cost of production. If Warner chose to produce 1000 DVDs per batch instead of 50,000, you would be seeing higher prices. [Link] |
| torris Senior Member Deep within Mila's anus 1827 Posts 1/00 | Posted - May 13 2000 : 8:24PM Think about this for a few moments: Most of Private's movies are much higher caliber than 90+% of the other studios out there. I'm assume that their content costs more to produce. ======== In my opinion, lack of sound on a disk is equally as unacceptable as the terrible graininess of the bottomline Sunshine DVDs. And Sunshine isn't trying to sell their product at around $30 a shot. I am personally thankful that we have a representative here from Private active in the ADT community and working to resolve these issues. ======= I hope so too, b/c until I get some better assurances about how they're taking care of this problem, I won't be buying anymore Private DVDs. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. [Link] |
| Saki At-Large 2087 Posts 11/99 | Posted - May 14 2000 : 12:00AM If the authoring of the disc is poor (meaning low quality audio/video, branching problems, etc.), the studio should be held accountable. If the disc is not authored according to the DVD spec, and therefore does not play or play correctly, the studio should be held accountable for the problem. If the disc is authored according to spec and does not play in certain players, then it's likely that those players are not compliant to the DVD specification. For example, it's well-known that The Matrix was within the spec, but the majority of the problems came from brands that did not fully implement the DVD spec. In that case, the studio should not be under any obligation since they cannot be held accountable for players that cannot play compliant discs. Obviously, it's difficult to determine which is the case. But it's not always the studios' fault. Just playing devil's advocate... As an aside, I have been dealing with an issue with another studio's discs that will not play in a specific model of a popular brand of DVD player, even though they all play fine in other manufacturers' players and even in different models of the same brand. Saki ------------------ [url=455144]My Adult DVD List</A (Updated 04/04/00) | [url=464769]My Adult DVD Reviews</A [Link] |
| Darkness Member UK 77 Posts 2/00 | Posted - May 14 2000 : 2:38AM Found the URL, it is : [url=467355]http://www.dvd-debate.com/Archive/january2.shtml</A and here is the text: According to a statement made by French manufacturer, Thomson, it looks like The Matrix disc was at fault all along and Samsung could be largely blame free. Thomson owns both GE and RCA in America and has employed independent technical consultants to analyse the US version of the Matrix. What follows is the full statement as issued by Thomson in the USA. 'In response to numerous consumer inquiries concerning playback of The Matrix movie disc in GE-branded DVD players, Thomson Consumer Electronics commissioned an independent verification company to analyze the data found on the disc in question. It was found that The Matrix disc violates the DVD Video Standard Disc Specification in one key area - the "menu.VOB" file structure. Moreover, two additional areas of the disc's construction - placement of the "Video Zone TS directory" and "UDF file lengths" - were found to be abnormal and subject to interpretation as to whether they would be considered specification violations. While we have confirmed the integrity of Thomson's DVD player, we have chosen to upgrade all dealer inventory of the players to assure that they will play even those discs that violate the DVD standard in the same manner as The Matrix disc. Furthermore, we will upgrade the players of consumers who have already purchased them at no cost. We take these steps to reassure our customer base - both consumer and retail -- that Thomson Consumer Electronics stands behind the integrity of all its brands -- RCA, GE, and Proscan.' However, does not get to the bottom of the Private problem. [Link] |
| Saki At-Large 2087 Posts 11/99 | Posted - May 14 2000 : 12:19PM And I agree that it doesn't shed any light on the Private issue. I just offered my two cents on liability, since everyone seems to be quick to assume that it's always the studios' fault, even being provocative to the point of saying that it's intentional. Saki ------------------ [url=455144]My Adult DVD List</A (Updated 04/04/00) | [url=464769]My Adult DVD Reviews</A [Link] |
| jb0911 Member North Hollywood, CA USA 74 Posts 1/00 | Posted - May 15 2000 : 10:42AM I am sorry this info has taken so long to get to you. I finally had the answer on Friday but was up to my eyebrows in the authoring of the first Shane's World DVD. The Private Corporate office in Barcelona sat down with the authoring team and went over the problem. (By the way, major huge kudos to Brett!! His posts lead the authoring guys directly to the problem. Who knows how long this would have taken if not for his post) Here's the official response from Barcelona: We do have 5 titles (Fatal Orchid 2, Indecency 1, Indecency 2, Sex Shot & African Dream) that have MPEG encoded sound. This can be a problem with some players in the USA that may not be able to handle MPEG sound. This has been changed and the titles released from march 2000 (I suppose april in the USA) are all encoded in Dolby Digital Stereo. From what I understood there should be very few players that can't handle MPEG sound and most of them should be old... There is also some players that cannot handle MPEG sound through the digital output but can do so through the analog RCA output. I will try to get a list of players that can't handle MPEG sound and send it to you, but it won't be easy. Well let me see if I can get something soon. (Faron again) So, it turns out to have been an encoding decision on those five titles which caused the problems and it has been changed to make sure the problem does not occur in the future. For those who have been affected by this, I offer my sincerest appologies on behalf of myself and the entire company. There should be no problem in returning the discs to the retailer from which they were purchased for a full refund. If anyone does encounter any resistance whatsoever in returning the above discs, please feel free to e-mail me at faron@ogv.com. I offer my personal assurance that no one will be stuck with a disc that cannot be played. I wish that I could tell everyone that a new version of the affected titles was on the way as we speak. Unfortunatley, given the dynamics of the adult industry, that decision has not yet been reached. Thus far, only players in the US have been affected and a small number of those in comparison to the total marketplace. While those of you affected my feel this to be less than the hoped for response, please try to understand that at this point a reworking of the five titles in question is simply not financially feasible. Thanks again for your patience and understanding during this problem. Special thanks to Brett for the info and Drew Black for understanding the industry so well. [This message has been edited by jb0911 (edited May 15, 2000).] [Link] |
| torris Senior Member Deep within Mila's anus 1827 Posts 1/00 | Posted - May 15 2000 : 12:38PM [Link] |
| Brett Member USA 8 Posts 5/00 | Posted - May 16 2000 : 6:58AM The following players definately support MPEG audio: Toshiba 2109 (through RCA stereo outputs) iMac DV Dell Inspiron 3500 laptop w/ DVD-ROM [Link] |
| torris Senior Member Deep within Mila's anus 1827 Posts 1/00 | Posted - May 17 2000 : 5:37PM [Link] |
| tricia_devereaux Evil Angel DVD Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous? 4283 Posts 4/00 |  Posted - May 22 2000 : 11:14PMEvil Angel and Private are in no way associated with each other, but I respect Private very much as a colossal adult company. I even had the honor of working for them many times as an actress. I also know many people at their company and believe that they care very much about the quality of their products. However, I agree with them when they say that it is not financially a good decision to redo DVDs because a few models of players couldn't support them. They have offered a refund, and that is all that can be expected. Some people brought Evil Angel into this conversation, so I wanted to clarify that our decision to redo some titles was based on the fact that the disc was of inferior quality for our standards and would affect all viewers. I myself own several Private DVDs and the decision to redo 4 of our titles was in part based on the near-perfect picture quality on the Private DVD. I am glad to hear they found a solution to their problem, and will continue to support them. Tricia Devereaux, Evil Angel DVD [Link] |
| tricia_devereaux Evil Angel DVD Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous? 4283 Posts 4/00 | Posted - May 22 2000 : 11:20PM It is more expensive than people think for an adult company to manufacture DVDs. My company is doing initial runs of 3000 pieces. Such a small run drives up all of the costs, including printing cover inserts. Also, please do not compare the cost of an adult DVD to a mainstream one. You can go out and buy some new mainstream VHS releases for $7-20. But most people have come to expect to pay $30-40 and up for a quality company's adult VHS tape. Adult companies don't get to make their money on theatrical releases, and then treat video or DVD as a sell-through and extra money. Our video an DVD money is the only thing that keeps us going and making more porn for the fans out there to jerk off to. [Link] |
| jb0911 Member North Hollywood, CA USA 74 Posts 1/00 |  Posted - May 23 2000 : 11:29AMWhat a total sweetheart you are to respond on this question!! I can't tell you how nice it is to have other companies more concerned with quality than price. I gotta tell you, knowing what it must have cost you guys, the re-do on those four discs just impressed the hell out of me. There are so few companies that would have followed through so well. The very first Private DVD's, the Pyramid Trilogy, had to be pulled off the market and re-mastered due to a conflict with music rights here in the US. When you add up the original production costs along with the re-mastering costs, I'm not sure those have yet to actually turn a profit despite being one of our best sellers. Re-mastering your titles in order to provide your customers with the best possible quality should stand as an example to the entire industry as to how business should be done. Keep up the great work! I wanted to add a little something to your mention of pricing. I've been amazed at the furor over the cost. Most companies are (foolishly I think) selling their product on DVD at hardly any profit at all in what I assume is an effort to shut everyone else out of the market. Who knows. I do know that when DVD overtakes VHS as the dominant medium for adult distribution some folks are going to be in for a very rude awakening. Private DVD's are actually priced only a couple of dollars above the same movie on VHS while providing the added languages, subtitles, trailers, behind the scenes reports, interviews, not to mention superior quality. Heck, our OGV gay titles are actually priced exactly the same on DVD as VHS even with the inclusion of all the extra materials. Add to that the fiercly competative internet retail market and the end consumer can actualy purchase a Private or OGV DVD for less than the same title costs on VHS. Faron [Link] |
| torris Senior Member Deep within Mila's anus 1827 Posts 1/00 | Posted - May 23 2000 : 5:58PM Who knows. I do know that when DVD overtakes VHS as the dominant medium for adult distribution some folks are going to be in for a very rude awakening. =============== How so? My guess is that recordable DVDs will become the norm long before VHS bites the dust. Then who's in the for the rude awakening :-) Faron: Private DVD's are actually priced only a couple of dollars above the same movie on VHS while providing the added languages, subtitles, trailers, behind the scenes reports, interviews, not to mention superior quality. Heck, our OGV gay titles are actually priced exactly the same on DVD as VHS even with the inclusion of all the extra materials. ======= That is certainly true, but the same deal goes on mainstream titles and one of the quirks of DVD is that mainstream DVDs sell for radically less than most VHS titles too. for once the consumer is on top! What is it that you think will make Private the DVD choice? If it's all the extras, then that is the "loss leader" that the company bears to push their product ahead of the pack. I wonder what sells more? Private at $30 or Blowjob Fantases at $7? But ahh. Maybe the real question is what generates more return on outlay? I don't like paying $30 for a DVD. Don't like paying $30 for a VHS tape either. Now that DVD Overnight isn't selling DVDs, I'll probably quit buying every Private title that comes out. Because, and this is honest consumer feedback: no porn tape/DVD is worth $30 Faron: Add to that the fiercly competative internet retail market and the end consumer can actualy purchase a Private or OGV DVD for less than the same title costs on VHS. ======== How else is DVD gonna bury VHS if it's not priced below tape? And actually Faron, doesn't Private/OGV benefit from the fierce competition? A year ago you only had a handful of sites selling DVD product, now there must be 50. Isn't that great for Private that so many places are taking orders from you? Torris [Link] |
| jb0911 Member North Hollywood, CA USA 74 Posts 1/00 | Posted - May 23 2000 : 11:02PM Sorry my statement was not clearer. When I noted that some folks would be in for a rude awakening when DVD overtakes VHS I was speaking of owners of adult production companies, not consumers (although, I must admit, consumers are going to be pretty pissed as well). The current adult DVD market (price structure) has emerged because adult companies are accustomed to making all profit from VHS sales. The make or break point is reached during the initial VHS release. DVD as a medium hasn't quite begun to cause a serious difference in the total sales of VHS copies of an adult title. Yet. Therefore, at the moment, DVD sales are viewed by most adult companies as gravy. They've probably already made back the initial investment of production costs for the movie itself by the time the DVD is produced. This has caused a lot of shortsighted people to spend very little on DVD production and price their DVD's based only on the cost of having the title placed on the new medium. If you don't spend much on authoring/encoding, materials and replication then you can sell the title very cheap and still see a little profit. And, there are some folks using this window to sell DVD's pretty much at cost, with no thought to quality, to make quick and easy inroads to the marketplace. The rude awakening will come because one day VHS won't be around to make back the initial investment and production costs will need to be amortized into the cost of the DVD. When this happens there will be two choices. Either keep the costs of DVD's low by making REALLY cheap movies, use the lowest quality transfer technology and replication and provide no extras whatsoever or keep quality high and watch the price of DVD's skyrocket. The companies will have no choice. It's either that or go out of business. When that happens there will a huge outcry from the public. God knows if I were in your shoes I would be pissed as all hell to see the prices I was accustomed to suddenly shoot up. I fear that the entire industry is going to see a very angry backlash. I, and the management teams at both Private and OGV, believe we are taking the only sane long-term, business approach. With the staggering growth DVD has seen we truely expect a serious phase out of VHS to begin within the next year or so. I think that the introduction of recordable DVD's for home use will sound the absolute death knell for VHS. I know it's the only thing I'm waiting for to toss my VCR. When the change over happens our prices will stay pretty darn close to the same and the public will see a catalog of quality product and relativly stable prices. As well as it's doing, DVD still only sells a fraction of what VHS does. Here in the beginning, maintaining the price integrity allows for lots of work on making a good DVD. When the total number of DVD copies sold increases, it will coincide with having to cover the initial production costs of the movie. And yes we do think, as we always have with all our products, that quality and reliability will be a better selling point than just cheap. It's the same reason we have always paid more for the raw video tape our movies are duplicated onto than some companies charge for their finished product. The same aforementioned quick-buck mentality is what caused the drastic downward spiral of quality the adult industry saw in the early 80's. Someone said "Hey, we could use video to make the movies and undercut everyone else's price!" Well, they made a cheaper movie and sold a lot more copies than the competition for a lower profit margin. Big Suprise! The competition made a cheaper movie and sold it for even less. The wheels just kept going round and round. Pretty soon we had gone from "movies" like Debbie Does Dallas and Behind the Green Door made for hundreds of thousands of dollars to schloky one-day-wonders made for a couple of grand. Porn just got worse and worse till it hit bottom. Beleive me, it hit bottom. I have actually been in a house where one director friend of mine was shooting three movies with the same cast at the same time all in one day. My hand to God, true story. So, when it finally couldn't go any lower a few brave souls said "Hey! What if we try to make a GOOD movie?" It worked to a great extent. Given the choice of quality product a lot of people started to buy, even at the higher price, so the 90's saw a big improvement in porn quality. Unfortunatly, it has never fully recovered to the halcyon days of yore. Some of our movies have been made with the knowledge that they would probably never see a real profit. We just wanted stuff THAT good out there with our name on it. So, what does all that mean? Thanks for asking! Our industry screwed itself. Torris, you don't want to ever pay $30 for a porn movie. A lot of people feel the same way. Why? Because there's so much stuff on the market for less. The consuming public has become accustomed to low prices. Torris, if I were in your shoes I would feel exactly the same way. But, if you can only charge a certain amount for a movie then you know ahead of time that to make a profit you can only spend so much to make it. Right now, a big segment of the industry is doing the same thing to DVD as they did to VHS. They are making you, the consumer, accustomed to rock bottom prices for DVD's and as cold as this may sound, if you're only willing to spend $15 for a DVD then very soon you're not going to be getting very much for your money out of this industry. It's just something dictated by economics. I know this is some pretty dangerous stuff for a manufacturer to say directly to the consumer because the harsh reality of business can be seen as pretty ugly. I just hope it is taken in spirit of honesty and openness that it is intended. As Tricia said, people who want the best product on the market are willing to pay the $30 and the best product on the market costs $30 dollars because of the amount of money spent to make it. Just like Evil Angel, we want to keep making good stuff for a long time to come. I also don't think price is what will allow DVD to bury VHS. When the CD totally killed vinyl and made tape a relic, price certainly had nothing to do with it. I can't think of any new technology that was required to be cheaper in order kill it's predecessor. It just has to reach a level of affordability that the general public finds acceptable for a newer, better product. I just want to finish up by saying that I hope no one took anything in my previous post as any sort of slam. I just had gotten the feeling some folks thought we were sitting around planning horrible ways to screw the public. I simply hoped that some honest comments on the nature of the industry might give everyone a better understanding why we do what we do. [Link] |
| Janitor Retired Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99 | Posted - May 24 2000 : 10:32AM Thank you for your explanation/ market forecast. I do hope that online sales will increase the global market for adult DVDs, making the recuperation of costs a little easier. Torris Even if the cost to the general public is $30, the online bargain hunter will always be able to find a good deal. [Link] |
| Brett Member USA 8 Posts 5/00 | Posted - May 24 2000 : 1:57PM [Link] |
| torris Senior Member Deep within Mila's anus 1827 Posts 1/00 | Posted - May 24 2000 : 7:03PM Hi Torris, Sorry my statement was not clearer. When I noted that some folks would be in for a rude awakening when DVD overtakes VHS I was speaking of owners of adult production companies, not consumers (although, I must admit, consumers are going to be pretty pissed as well). ======== Torris: I'm questioning whether this will ever happen not if. You're talking about people that a) can record on VHS b) most adult rental, B'Buster/Hollywood and mom and pop shops are still 80%+ wired for VHS. I don't think you're automatically going to have a huge market shift from VHS to DVD for a decade to come. Most will rely interchangably on both. Faron: The current adult DVD market (price structure) has emerged because adult companies are accustomed to making all profit from VHS sales. The make or break point is reached during the initial VHS release. DVD as a medium hasn't quite begun to cause a serious difference in the total sales of VHS copies of an adult title. Yet. Torris: The true indication would be to see if a concurrent release of DVD/VHS, to gauge the % of DVD. I would guess it is as you say, a fraction. But one thing to keep in mind about the differnece on VHS and DVD customers. DVD customers *buy*; VHS customers *rent* and then *dub*. Why would the adult companies want to gouge people that are paying $20+ versus $3 for a rental? For me, if you're dropping the price a couple dollars you're now not only going to sell to the rental places but will also move more units to companies dealing with this niche online. Makes perfect sense to me. Let's say that Private charges $20 to the retail outlet (ignoring that most retail outlets get their porn from intermediaries like GWA). The porn shop isn't worried about that price b/c he can expect to rent the title 25 times let's say getting his money back, minus overhead. This is exactly why major studios charge $90 wholesale for first run video titles, b/c they know that the rental shops will make it back by repeat rental but now with the internet, you can buy and shop online. Now people can *buy* more than *rent*. Same way VHS devastated the porno theater subculture, online has the *potential* to cut into the smut shop take as more and more people decide they don't even have to venture their local shop when they can see the boxcovers, search databases/search engines and maybe even get movie clips from the comfort and privacy of their home. Any hour of the day or week. And no annoying bleach smell on their clothes :-) Why shouldn't Private make money coming and going. If you could get the MRSP down so outlets could sell it for $25, instead of $30 you'd certainly sell more to people who think that $20 is the threshold for a porn DVD. Less per unit item but more sales; building brand loyalty all the while with the extras. I think the real change in demographics is that less and less people are going to rely on their local smut shack when they can either rent or buy online. You at Private/OGV should be ecstatic that you now have a secondary pipeline direct to consumers for your product. Am I right gang? Faron: Therefore, at the moment, DVD sales are viewed by most adult companies as gravy. They've probably already made back the initial investment of production costs for the movie itself by the time the DVD is produced. Torris: This makes sense to me. But eventually concurrent releases will become the norm and DVD will be expected to cover all ends. While most smut shops are still high volume VHS with a rack of DVDS, I know dozens of people via RAME that have sworn off tape all together and will demand DVD as a rule. Faron: This has caused a lot of shortsighted people to spend very little on DVD production and price their DVD's based only on the cost of having the title placed on the new medium. Torris: Agreed on some lines. But you can't tell me that Metro, selling the Backseat Driver and Blowjob Fantasies that retail for $7 have skimped on production of these series. They've just decided to roll back the prices on the older titles to clear stock. Faron: The rude awakening will come because one day VHS won't be around to make back the initial investment and production costs will need to be amortized into the cost of the DVD. Torris: I'm questioning whether this day will ever come. I know most peole are reluctant to upgrade to DVD for two reasons 1. they've invested thousands in tapes; blank and storebought 2. you can't record, yet, on DVD Faron: When that happens there will a huge outcry from the public. God knows if I were in your shoes I would be pissed as all hell to see the prices I was accustomed to suddenly shoot up. I fear that the entire industry is going to see a very angry backlash. Torris: I hope the porn and mainstream movie audience learns the lesson taught to the greedy recording industry with Mp3s. In five years we'll be able to download and store huge movie files in a matter of minutes and if either industry thinks they can retail a first run DVD at $90, they'll be slaughtered by the bootleggers and gnutella/napster crowd. Can you tell me that a Private movie is *worth* extrinsically $100? Faron: I, and the management teams at both Private and OGV, believe we are taking the only sane long-term, business approach. With the staggering growth DVD has seen we truely expect a serious phase out of VHS to begin within the next year or so. Torris: I highly doubt this will be the case. Do you think that the smut shop owner is gonna junk his video stocks or have to convert all his video holdings to DVD? You think the raincoater nation has DVD in their trailer park? I think the boxcover demand (size of the title to command attention on a shelf) alone will hold VHS as the ruler in porn for several more years. Faron: I think that the introduction of recordable DVD's for home use will sound the absolute death knell for VHS. I know it's the only thing I'm waiting for to toss my VCR. Torris: I think b/c people have invested so much in VHS that they will keep both at least until they've converted everything to DVD-R Faron: And yes we do think, as we always have with all our products, that quality and reliability will be a better selling point than just cheap. torris: No arguments here. Private is definitely a Porsche and should command more than a Sunshine DVD-Yugo. But I'm saying that the high price will limit sales for people that will learn to live wihout the best of the best and "settle" for something more affordable. Since Overnight got out of the sales game, my days of buying every Private title is through. $25 is my absolute threshold. Here's an idea. Maybe Private could work with some of the outlets to establish a buyers club that would reward brand loyalty for people willing to shell out big money for the titles. Dream on eh? :-) As a consumer I have to recognize that I have a limited budget for everything, especially porn. There are plenty of good titles retailing for $15; the cost of a music CD. If I can get two of them for the price of one Private, the consumer tendency is to maximize the value for their money. Faron: Unfortunatly, it has never fully recovered to the halcyon days of yore. Torris: The movies of today are so much better then the 70s movies. Really, if you get past the mythology of what they were doing. Most of those movies are pretty forgettable outside of a handful of classics. Just b/c a movie is on 35mm doesn't make it better than a Buttman movie shot on Digital Cameras Faron: Because there's so much stuff on the market for less. The consuming public has become accustomed to low prices. Torris: Have consumers even been accustomed to high prices? :-) Faron: They are making you, the consumer, accustomed to rock bottom prices for DVD's and as cold as this may sound, if you're only willing to spend $15 for a DVD then very soon you're not going to be getting very much for your money out of this industry. Torris: In a market, the higher you price the movie the less you can expect to sell and the more video companies will be exploited by both pirates/bootleggers and DVD R traders. Faron: I also don't think price is what will allow DVD to bury VHS. When the CD totally killed vinyl and made tape a relic, price certainly had nothing to do with it. Torris: Faron, you're wrong here. First of all, the record cartels created a scarcity of vinyl to ensure that the higher priced CDs would force holdouts into buying CD players. Secondly, there were more turntables sold last year than guitars, so there is a huge market for vinyl. Faron: I can't think of any new technology that was required to be cheaper in order kill it's predecessor. Torris: And that anomaly was rewarded with a huge sale of hardware. DVD players have had a much better time in their infancy than VHS did. Why is that? Less expensive DVD players and affordable DVD movies!!!!!!!!! Faron: It just has to reach a level of affordability that the general public finds acceptable for a newer, better product. Torris: Beware the bootlegger, if the porn/mainstream cartels try and change this!! I'll never pay $30 for a Sunshine or Leisure Time DVD I can guarantee you that :-) Faron: I just want to finish up by saying that I hope no one took anything in my previous post as any sort of slam. I just had gotten the feeling some folks thought we were sitting around planning horrible ways to screw the public. Torris: Not at all. It's refreshing to discuss whether than argue these points. [Link] |
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