No one knows all the answers; however, I'll take a stab at some of the ideas that are generally accepted by "real" scientists, behaviorists, psychologists, anthropologists, biologists, etc (as opposed to the religious types).

There is a great deal of probability that homosexuality is both genetic and learned. Consensus is that there are a series of genes or gene combinations which predispose one towards some degree or level of homosexuality but that one has also to "discover" the traits within him/herself because society is generally so repressive of all things gay.

People don't "convert" -- nor can people be converted -- regardless of the horror stories espoused by the fundamentalist religious types. It is possible for homosexual rape to occur but that doesn't make the victim gay -- and, oddly enough, in a majority of cases, the perpetrator is not gay either -- as in rape of women, it is more a rage and control thing than a sexual thing.

As for me personally, I've never not liked women -- I've just never been attracted to them sexually. Many centuries ago when other boys my age were beginning to notice the girls around them, my thought were more along the lines of, "Have these guys gone crazy?" I figured out that I liked guys and that very, very few other guys liked guys (and you had better be quiet about it or you'd get beaten to a pulp); but it was many years later that I discovered that there were actually other gay guys out there in the real world.

As to you being bi-curious, a lot of men are (and I suspect, a lot of women, also). I don't think that means you are straight or gay -- just that you have a healthy imagination and an open mind. Should you ever decide to experiment, that still doesn't make you gay -- or even bisexual.

I think the best self-definition of homosexuality is based on that person (or persons) with whom you picture yourself in a sustained relationship. If that person is the same sex, then you are most probably gay.

Hope that helps -- and feel free to ask more....

~ GaySatyr

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So someone like David Bowie (to pick a recognizable example) seems to vacillate between gay and straight - but still likes women (attracted to, that is), evidently here is a person that has a healthy imagination and an open mind from an early age! imagine that. So he gets labeled as "weird" and it's okay because he's a big talented star.

But that's different from being gay. What I mean (and GaySatyr has partially answered), is; do gays have that same magnetism for other men as I experience for women? I like women's lips, their curves, the napes of their necks, even their elbows, for hell's sake. If a gay man has this same fascination for men, then I'm utterly convinced that we are in the realm of pure nature. Can gay teen men sit and make out for a long time, (just kissing) like lots of other (straight) kids do? Or is it only sort of like that, but different?

I mention the above because although I could imagine sucking on a penis, I can't conceive of kissing another man. The thought mortifies me.

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Being straight isn't just about having sex; nor is being gay. Both aspects of personality permeate ones entire life. As a straight person, one has certain feelings about members of the opposite sex; but that doesn't mean that he/she wants to have sex with every member of the opposite sex. He/she appreciates the gender for what it is, what it represents; but he/she is usually physically attracted to a subset of the gender, physical characteristics or quirks of personality he/she finds beautiful, amusing, or endearing. The same holds true for homosexuals except that the genders involved are the same.

One of my most tender memories is also one of my most hated: I'm not fond of eggplant, however, my boyfriend at the time loved it. We were in a nearly deserted grocery store in the wee hours of the morning shopping in the produce section and I picked up an eggplant and put it in our cart. Ric, seeing what I had done, pulled close, brushing his lips against my cheek -- not even a full-fledged kiss. However, apparently we were observed in the store's surveillance system, as, within moments, the night security guard approached, telling us we had to leave and that, if we didn't, they would call the cops and have us arrested. I would have loved to stay, making a scene, but Ric was career USAF. We left. This happened in 1980 in Washington, DC.

~ GaySatyr

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In my case, I assumed I was completely "straight" (like "everybody else" in the early 1960s) until I was about 12. I had already entered puberty and begun masturbating to newspaper photos of women like Ursula Andress and Brigitte Bardot--the major babes of that day! I also fantasized, eyes closed, about women in bed, alone, nude but just lying there. Gradually I realized that if I put a man in the fantasy-bed with the woman and they were like, y'know, doing stuff, the fantasy became much hotter. And THEN I gradually realized that if I forgot about the woman and just fantasized about the man, it was, for me, much much hotter still! Soon I was fantasizing only about men; I was exclusively male-oriented by the time I started dating, though I dated a few women as "beards" in high school and college because in those days you still "had to." I have never had any desire to revisit my brief "heterosexual" period--not the slightest desire at all.

So is my sexual orientation genetic or learned? I have no idea and, given the fact that homosexuality exists, I don't really care where it comes from--I just thank every star in the heavens for it! I know that I could never have been happy without it.

Every gay man I've ever asked has told a different story. Some knew they were exclusively male-oriented by the time they were four or five years old! Others didn't have a clue until they were in their 30s or 40s, had been heterosexually married and fathered several children, and then one day realized that they had never really been happy because they weren't getting what they really wanted sexually.

My guess is that everyone, everywhere, is potentially heterosexual AND homosexual. Social pressures determine, for most of us, which path we're going to follow, unless there's something in the individual that just rebels too hard against the social conditioning to be denied. What that something might be, I don't know. But I'm awfully glad I had it when I was 12.

I feel every attraction to every part of a beautiful man's body that you feel toward women's bodies. But I have no desire at all to get intimate with men (the great majority of all men) who do not interest me. The common idea that any gay man will jump automatically on anything in trousers is nonsense.

About kissing--it's practically my favorite thing, and yes, I did it by the hour with other boys/young men from the time I was in my late teens and in college. Still do (though no longer with anyone under-age)!

Now, here's something about straight people I've never understood, and perhaps you can answer it for me? Why are so many straight people, even those who can kinda sorta get with the idea of man-to-man fucking, so horrified by the very idea of man-to-man kissing? Why is kissing, of all things, considered to be absolutely the "worst" offense? This has been a mystery to me all my life.

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But the reason why it doesn't appeal seems "natural" somehow, or at least biological. If I was an actor and had to do a male kissing scene, I'd have some serious work to shake the fear and cold chills. Anyway, it's kind of like the opposite of what turns me on. I respond to something female, and who can explain? I don't even try. Anyways, kissing is in one way the ultimate act - sort of like the most intimate contact you can have, more than intercourse. Until they invent a way to mind meld. Wow, now that would make for some good sex.

One reason for the original question is to help me make argument to some fundamentalist christians I know. My point being, God must be some kind of a bastard to "inflict" this gay thing on people, then expect them to bottle it up for a lifetime. And the point that if it's a purely unintentional desire, not a choice of the person, then God is surely playing cruel jokes - and who can believe in a God that does that crap? (My own viewpoint is who gives a flyin' fuck what some other guy does with his own self? Whether it's his choice or his genetics. & I don't need to beat up some poofter as long as he doesn't try to rape me.) And as well, I don't want someone telling me that I should have their morals, especially when it involves a belief system that accepts the science which turns on your desk lamp and rejects the one that proves the earth is millions of years old - that science being precisely the same!

So I expect a lot of gays are not christians, but I'm an atheist because there is no reconcilation between religion and science, or for that matter, imo, between religion and good sense!

Anyway, Keith, what you relate is very interesting.

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No, I'm not and never have been even slightly "religious" in the Christian sense, though I could vaguely imagine becoming a Buddhist.

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I love to see people kissing both in real life and in movies. Gay, straight, bi, whatever I think it's a beautiful thing to see (oh and to do too!)

I'll offer two thoughts why man to man kissing seems to "jolt" or "shock" folks.

Kissing is often an act done in affection with tenderness and gentleness.A symbol and a gesture of love as well as passion. I wonder if people think that sex and loving between two men is always rough and tough or detached in some way? Maybe the kiss makes them question that belief? Perhaps they realise that for a moment they have more in common with gay men than they think?

Or maybe like me, the sight of two men kissing passionately hits them unexpectedly, squarely and pleasurably in the groin. This may cause them to feel some kind of conflict and drive them to challenge their response? Who knows?

Here's a link to a very beautiful gallery of men kissing that's run by some friends of mine.

Click here

Cheers 'rain

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If everyone reading this thread would go look at even one or two of those galleries it might go a long way to answering a lot of their questions about what men see in each other and what it's like when men are in love with, or at least really attracted to, each other. As the quote from Shelley in one of the galleries puts it, "Soul meets soul in lovers' kiss." The gender of the lovers really doesn't make any difference.

As my link MAY not work (this is the first time I've tried to do one in these forums), those interested should follow Loraine's link to be sure of getting there.

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Stumbled on this thread after coming to the gay forum to read the Titan thread started by Tricia.

Some of the comments by abradarba and GaySatyr were interesting. As a hetro male, the thought of kissing a guy just isn't something I could handle doing, even pretend. It leaves me totally cold ... yet if I were in a threesome (unlikely, but we live in hope ) and the girl told me she wanted to see me give the guy a blowjob, I'm guessing I'd probably do it (as long as she was there helping). I suppose perhaps it's all tied in with intimacy, the kiss is more emontional. But unfortunately I thought about it for a while longer and ended up quite confused !

If my girlfriend had to confess to either:
A) having kissed another guy behind my back, or
B) having given another guy a blowjob

you can sure as hell bet that I would be less angry if it was option A) ... and I'm buggered if I can figure out why that's the case given what I said above about what I could theoretically handle.

Kinda strange I guess. Not sure if I added anything to this post !

PS: Sorry to read about the eggplant story GaySatyr. Very sad.

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It's funny because both of my last boyfriends felt the same way about seeing men kiss or hold hands in public. The first boyfriend said something like, "Hey, that's pretty cool." The second said, "Wow, that's beautiful." And they are both devout heterosexuals. Hey, I tried!

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One of the strongest indications that sexuality is not entirely voluntary, and is defined at the genetic level, is the presence of homosexual animals in nature. First off, please understand that I am in no way making a comparison between homosexuals and animals, but am merely using animals in a biological setting to make a point about genetic influence. The presence of homosexual animals, such as flamingos, bulls, giraffes, etc., and even what we consider "higher" animals such as primates and dolphins, suggests that homosexuality is not voluntary, since it is believed that animals do not possess the cortical functioning necessary for abstract reasoning (i.e. they view mirror reflections as separate animals, and not as themselves, so they could not understand the concepts of selective attraction or love).

That being said, the presence of bisexual individuals remains a puzzle, since they seem to suggest that sexual preference is merely a choice like any other, and is not strictly defined by genetic components. In addition, if homosexuality were strictly a genetic variable, natural selection should have removed this possibility from the gene pool long ago, as homosexuals would not have been able to propagate their genes.

However, it seems that the majority of exclusively homosexual men define themselves as having been born that way, and as never having made a choice to be homosexual in the same way that heterosexuals never explicitly chose to be heterosexual.

Short answer: Our genes define our sexual orientation, but it is not unchangeable. Our higher cortical reasoning has the ability to change and influence this drastically.

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I don't think it is quite that simple. I suspect that there are at least several genetic influences on propensity of sexuality, leaving open the possibility for genetic bisexuality. Acting on those propensities, whether they be heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual, is then a result of a combination of nature/heredity over which we have no control, nurture/environment prior to self-awareness of sexual identity, and conscious effort once we are sexually self-aware.

I honestly don't think anyone can consciously change his/her sexual orientation. I do think that many people have consciously and/or unconsciously suppressed their sexual orientation within a broad range of total failure to total success.

~ GaySatyr

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I suppose one of the biggest problem with this is the nature of how we define sexual identity. Some men who are sexually active with men, but are emotionally attracted only toward women, define themselves strictly as being heterosexual. Others define themselves as bisexual since they are sexually attracted toward both. Still other men who have no interest in sex with men and are virgins would define themselves as homosexual because they possess romantic feelings toward men.

I suppose one of the biggest arguments to support the notion that, at least to a degree, can consciously change our sexual orientation are the attitudes toward sexuality noted during grand changes in culture or society. For example, over the past couple of decades, societal acceptance of female homo or bi-sexuality has greatly increased, going from as taboo as male homosexuality to common and almost accepted. Now, bisexual women are a common and expected occurrence, as is the acceptance of seeing female-to-female kisses on television. Men purchase lesbian sex videos for enjoyment, cheer on girls who dance and kiss at clubs, and having a menage `a trois is the ultimate fantasy. With this acceptance has come vastly increased rates of bisexuality reported in women.

Another example, although esoteric, is the case of classical and Hellenistic Greece. Their culture viewed sex between men just the same as sex with women, and doing such as not being taboo. Things we consider perversions and sexual deviations today, such as pederasty, was a commonplace and even valued relationship. It was accepted in the culture that one simply chose whom to sleep with just the same as one chooses between an apple or orange. Both were equally acceptable, and it was not a rigidly defined concept. Hence, in this society, the rates of homosexuality were FAR beyond what would be expected when compared with other cultures, or compared with today. If it were strictly a genetic influence, then although homosexuality would have been accepted in Greece, it would not have been widely practiced and would have remained a minority affair. However, we know that this is not the case.

What do you think?

-- Seeker

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Keith Lucas wrote

Men Kissing Gallery/Slide Show

I don't suppose any man has ever understood any woman since the beginning of things. You don't understand our imaginations, how wild our imaginations can be. H.G.Wells from Things To Come 1936

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