roxy was talking about the shit that happened to her on the set Rocco Ravishes Ibiza in the btw of Belladonna's Evil pink 2 on how they can go a little to far and don't know what the word no means.
It's Rocco. Thats what he does. surely every should know that by now. Funny how i was just watching her in a scene with steve french. In the behind the scenes she said she was terrified.
Why would anybody blame her if the guy ignored her wishes? She was the professional. She stayed and fulfilled her obligation. He's the one in the wrong here. Ego and arrogance took precedence over professionalism, and who's fault is that? Rocco's. I agree that she should have walked off the set for the sake of self-preservation, but just because she stayed doesn't make Rocco right. He's not entitled to treat her with complete disregard.
This is very close to a "blame-the-date-rape-victim" mentality I'm seeing in some of these posts, and that disturbs me. There were two people involved; one who failed to extricate herself from a bad situation, and another who didn't take "no" for an answer. What she did (or didn't do) was stupid. What he did was wrong.
There are two different scenes in the two volumes of Ibiza. The notable one is in the first volume, where Roxy slaps Rocco around and calls him a "cunt," and is then lectured by Gabriel Zero about showing Rocco proper respect. Rocco, for his part, ass-rams Roxy so hard she can't really walk afterwards and she disappears from the rest of the movie (as edited).
Although, I didn't get from that scene or the one mentioned that she wasn't enjoying the sex. I watched both DVDs. The sex is very rough, and without playing into either "blame the victim" or "bash Rocco," that's what he's known for and it's something Roxy is no novice about, so I'm a little confused by an apparent uproar. I thought it was cool she abused him a little in the first volume, and I was surprised to see her back in Vol. 2.
I'm not gonna tie up my line with a 19MB clip ... but from watching both movies this is my take ...
What I'm saying is that, even knowing Rocco's personality going in, she still has a right to assert her limits when she realizes she's reached them. I know Rocco has a reputation for being very, very rough, and for pushing the envelope with girls--getting them to perform past their previously-stated limits. I'd always had the impression that he used charm, not intimidation, to get what he wanted. I thought that's why girls line up to perform with him. I didn't know that he has a reputation for being a genuine bully.
I've heard him described as a "thug." I've also heard women ooze and gush about him. His best movies seem to be ones where the female performers are psyched up to meet him on his own level, rather than the ones where he steamrolls over roomfuls of dear-in-the-headlight "initiates." Roxy seems like one of the former, and it looked to me like she was ready to dish it right back to Rocco -- I thought she did. I guess I missed something. But I would say that the first scene she clearly strikes Rocco with her hands and curses him out in a demeaning manner. Looks assertive to me. Then again, right after that, he butt-rapes her, so was that part of the dynamic they both created or did he overstep?
It looked like it was "in context" but close to the edge that Rocco's best scenes usually tread. Maybe you can check them out and offer a verdict? I was surprised Roxy was back in Volume 2, but the scene there did not look as rough as the first scene.
I absolutely agree. That's why so many of Rocco's films made my list when I sent out my "Donkey Punch" letter and care packages last week. I managed to procure a fifth copy of "Donkey Punch" and that one, along with all the other items I collected, is destined for OSHA. I just haven't decided if it should go to the federal OSHA rep or the CA rep.
Eventually, we'll get this industry cleaned up to where women really do have a right to assert their true feelings about treatment on the set.
Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99
Posted - Apr 5 2006 : 3:23PM
I tried to watch a couple Rocco directed movies and didn't like him. But I've really liked him in Buttman movies. He probably has a varied reputation because he's different with different directors.
The clip linked at the beginning of this thread _IS_ from Volume 2. And I assure you, the whole scene is pretty rough. Roxy gets choked a lot and on several occasions, not just in the 19meg clip, she asks Rocco to stop choking her. Sometimes he does...sometimes he doesn't. Who am I to say if this is "play acting" or "real?"
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - Apr 5 2006 : 4:17PM
I saw both installments of the "Rocco Ravishes Ibiza" series and I enjoyed them both, including his scene with Roxy Jezel in #2. As someone who has seen the scene, I find it an outlandish exaggeration to compare it to "rape." I think that anyone who compares porn to rape needs to become more familiar with the actual definition of rape, which is not happening to any of these women who all give their consent to engage in these acts on film. Not one time during the scene did I hear Roxy express refusal to anything Rocco was doing to her that he did not oblige if she did refuse.
Plus, I'm not exactly sure what to think about Roxy and her behaviour at times. From some of the performances I've seen of her, she strikes me as one of those girls who likes to switch back and forth from the aggresssor to the submissive, and really gets into both roles. She's been in several rough scenes, which leads me to the conclusion that she probably enjoys rough sex. And if she doesn't, she should say so. That is, unless she expects whomever she's performing with to be telepathic.
Also, I recall seeing Roxy in another Rocco film in which, during the BTS, the blond cameraman (I don't know his name) seems to be actually chastising Roxy for overdoing the whole submissive thing. As I recall, he told her in a very stern manner (and I'm paraphrasing) that she shouldn't be pretending to be "raped" by Rocco because Rocco would not do anything like that, and they really don't need anything like that in their movies. The expression on her face from his remarks was similar to that of a guilty and scolded child. Basically, taking all this into consideration, I believe that the entire scene was consensual, and ought not be in any way compared to "rape," which is an extremely serious accusation to make against anyone, especially if the accusation is only being made to garner some type of publicity.
First of all, I never accused anybody of rape. Second, I never categorized Rocco's actions as such. I said that some of the posts on this thread sounded similar to arguments often made to defend date rape. Do you understand that distinction?
I'm going to veer into hypothetical territory for a sec. Imagine that a Hollywood stunt man (fall guy) has contractually agreed to take real punches from the leading-man movie-star. Say they're 15 takes into it, and the stunt man gets hurt. Is that assault? No. Say the stunt man says to the movie star, "Wait a minute man, that's enough," and the movie star punches him again. Is that assault? Legally, I don't know. What do you think?
I think that, even though he's contractually consented to getting hit in the face multiple times, he still has the right to assert himself at any time, and the guy that disregards the stunt man's wishes is in the wrong. Period. Difference between him and any porn starlet is the stunt man has a guild to back him up and rain a shit storm down on everybody involved in the production.
If Roxy was play-acting, she's doing other girls a great disservice. I know a lot of people think it's impossible to rape a porn star, especially during a scene. People also think it's impossible for a man to rape his wife. If Roxy willingly played out a violent rape fantasy on screen, that's irresponsible. This is a slippery slope, isn't it? Man, I wish we could get some input from both her and Rocco.
Is there any legal disclaimer on this disc, or on the packaging?
The slope gets even slicker if you take into consideration what the script called for in your hypothetical Hollywood product. Was the actor who received the blows SUPPOSED to complain about them? How does the giver of the blows tell the difference between "make believe" complaints and "real" complaints, especially if they are trying to get "into" their role, practicing their craft so to speak? I just watched this past weeks episode of "The Soprano's," and Paulie sure as heck LOOKS like he enjoyed beating that kid with the lead pipe. I'm sure he was beating a stunt double or beating a dummy, but he did a good job convincing me he was beating the crap outta that kid. Isn't that what a good actor does.....makes you suspend your belief of reality for a moment?
Some people in this business would have me believe that the business is run a "certain way" and that the men control things and the women really aren't so free to just say "no" and walk off the set. I don't believe that personally. I believe some may exercise extremely poor judgement, but I want to believe that nobody is holding a gun to them just outside of the camera view and forcing them to do these kind of rough scenes. And maybe it's why I'm not a porn actor, but I'm sorry....there are things in this world I won't do for money, no matter how much I need it. And I've been pretty low in my own life, so I can appreciate what desperation, starvation and homelessness will do to cloud your judgement. Allowing myself to be sexually or physically abused for money ranks right up there as a line I won't cross.
I'd say Skronker's take on this is spot on. I would urge anyone to watch both of these movies, and especially the accompanying behind the scenes clips, and then comment on what they have seen after that.
Good points, AG11. It's such a quagmire. I suppose my perception comes from the fact that a lot porn is intended to look unscripted. That's why I wish I knew the real story behind this particular discussion.
I disagree with you somewhat, though. Personally, I feel that a porn performer should be able to "cry foul" and have a do-over if something doesn't feel right. She shouldn't have to walk off the set. Because she's agreed to do ninety-nine rough acts, doesn't mean that she has no right object to the hundredth. And why should her objection to one iteration of a consensual act (i.e. -- the first 12 chokes were fine. The 13th hurt and frightened her) result in her having to a call a halt to the entire scene? Why does it have to be all or nothing?
Because I've yet to watch this specific title in context, I'm not going to comment on my perceptions further. But I do think there's substantial discussion to be had about the bigger picture.
Good & Evil is merely a matter of perspective, I perfer to call myself... Determined 1229 Posts 7/05
Posted - Apr 5 2006 : 8:04PM
"NO" is an unacceptable "Safe-word"!
I agree with Aztec in that I don't want to see more Federal involvement in porn. I'm already disappointed in the fact I can't get any good bondage/sex movies!
Rocco has been a favorite of mine for several years, going back to the early Buttman days. I drifted away from his movies when he started getting rougher and became more acquainted with other directors like Michael Ninn, Seymore Butts & Jules Jordan. Since I went online 4+ years ago, I've explored the world of S&M and have become quite a fan. I now understand more about the "pleasure/pain" aspect of the roles of Doms & Subs. I've even experimented on occasion, playing both roles.
How do you learn if you like rough sex? Someone probably pushes you a little harder than you thought you could go!
Roxy has performed in other rough scenes, and I'm guessing she probably liked most of them to keep doing them. Unless I hear it directly from Roxy's mouth, I'm assuming she's not broken.
I agree with you Pagoda-a female (or male) performer should have total control over what they will or will not do. After all this is Porn-not brain surgery. Some girls are not overly bright, and are easily intimidated by an alpha male.
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - Apr 5 2006 : 9:09PM
Pagoda wroteI understand the distinction. By the way, I never said that either you, or anyone else specifically made such an accusation. My comment was intended to be applied in general terms to anyone who would make such a comparison, not saying that you ever did. Twizted6 wroteI agree. Too many times on this forum I see posters attempting to speak on behalf of pornstars and what those stars were supposedly feeling. Just because a scene is rough does not mean that the girl felt somehow abused, especially is she repeatedly appears in such scenes without complaint. I agree that if the performer herself does not express objection to her treatment, then why should anyone else?
Well alright, then. My bad. The more I think about this, the more confused I get. Everybody makes some good points here, and with each person's input, my own opinion changes slightly. It's such a subjective thing, I'm sure each individual that sees that clip comes away with a different impression. Each person has their own opinion of where "the line" should be drawn, and even that changes based on the players. I give up trying to figure it out.
Nothing says I love you so much as a tongue in the ass. 2884 Posts 1/03
Posted - Apr 5 2006 : 9:53PM
I've only seen the Ibiza 2 scene. I felt like even Rocco knew he went too far with her and had a conversation with Roxy about it. They had to have been operating with a safe word because I'm sure the words stop and no were used. The crux of what he told her was that if she thought he was being too rough, she has to let him know. Roxy put up a brave front but she was clearly hurting. I honestly don't know what he gets out of it when he tears into a woman like that. If she taps out, it's over. Where does that leave him? I thought the most remarkable part of the video was Nacho's revelations in the BTS, basically telling Rocco he's lost his mojo, then walking off in the middle of a scene with a lame excuse and Rocco totally understanding it.
I have to note, I did FF a lot thru the Roxy scene under discussion ... so I probably did miss what people are talking about, or skipped past it. The Ibiza movies are not high on my list of recent Rocco flicks. Top of the World and Dark Side of Suzan, as well as Meets Trinity and Fuckin' Funny are the ones I would suggest, though the sex is really rough -- the girls are definitely into it to a degree that would not confuse anyone.
I posted in the "Stars Crossed" section about Rocco already so I will not repeat it here!
I think that Rocco is just has to get on the edge even more to get turned on; because he has been in the business so long and has performed in so many edgy scenes that are borderline on being rough to the ladies.
I really get turn on in watching his most recent ones and am looking forward in viewing more of his recent DVDs. The ladies are just so "beautiful and they like give out 120% in the scenes. So are very dirty and kooky but a big turn on!
You cannot fight success! Rocco is pretty successful in this industry worldwide not just in Europe or in the U.S. but in the Far East and other places too!
So it seems that it was not just play-acting, unless the play-acting included making comments like that in a later picture.
I think the incident with Janine (which has been discussed here earlier) pretty much showed that while Rocco sure adores women he is a steam-roller that has no respect for the wishes of his partners unless they coincide with what he himself already wanted to do. In the Janine case he thought that her "no" was silly and then proceeded as if it didn't mean anything. Maybe this applies in Roxy's case as well.
Roxy is a good person and a great preformer. She never screamed in pain or said no any of the times I worked with her and if she did the scene would have been cut. Its sad to see her in that position. Let that have been me or any other black performer and we would be locked up.
After seeing some of your scenes, Tee, I don't think you'd even go there in the first place. You strike me as a giver, more than a taker. Interesting perspective, though.
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I have a question; was this actually shot on Ibiza? I wonder how American girls are treated during European shoots, and how it differs from porn valley. I read an interview with Monica Sweetheart in which she said Europe is largely unregulated, without the same testing standards and such, and that it's much safer to work in the U.S. I wonder if that applies to rough sex as well... hmmm.
Rocco tends to work with a set group of guys who I think are all very recognized top euro male performers. other than that, i don't know about tests situations other than I have heard it's different than US.
Well I just watched the scene tonight (I guess for a review) and this is the furthest I've ever seen Roxy pushed. She looked literally in fear of Rocco's dick which is a completely 180 from how she behaved towards Nacho. With Nacho, she kept taunting/egging him to fuck her harder, when the guys made the switch she completely changed personalities and looked to be in pain just from the vaginal insertion.
Before you get the notion that Rocco is an uncaring brute who did what he pleased with Roxy despite her objections, there were pauses where he asked her if he should stop; not as a taunt but as a concern on the way she was reacting. The behind the scenes is mostly devoted to Roxy. After the scene, when she looked stunned by what had happened she and Rocco had a debriefing where he tells her that he doesn't want to be abusing her. He also tells her to give him specific signals during the sex to let him know he's too rough. She just said everything was okay.
Not yet. As I said in a later post, I'm withholding further comment until I can see the entire movie in context, including the BTS. My initial comments were made based on the clip, and mostly as a response to posts by other ADT'ers.
And if you can get Roxy to comment on it candidly, I'd love to know what she has to say.
One point I'd like to clarify, although I used Roxy's and Rocco's names in my posts, my general feelings would apply to any two performers. And again, the more posts I read, this subject gets grayer and grayer.
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f_strongbad Deactivated User
Scandinavia 141 Posts 5/04
Posted - Apr 8 2006 : 4:33AM
The clip represents the roughest part of the scene and as correctly mentioned, rocco asks roxy several times if he should stop..
roxy is a trooper and really make all here scenes to the limit..or maybe more correctly, there is no limit?
Maybe I'm being too harsh but I really get tired of all these girls who complain to one and all later-but do nothing at the time. There was the girl who accused Everhard & Vouyer of "forcing" her to do anal against her wishes, then there was the Donkey Punch girl, now this one. And I'm sure you all could name many others. Maybe I'm a strong woman who can't conceive of allowing myself to be pushed around-BUT are these girls THAT weak and incapable of taking care of themselves? If so, they need to get the hell out of this business.
NOW I'll go get some coffee! And get off the soapbox.
I just watched that clip and found the scene extremely hot. This movie has been in my rental queue for a while. I need to bump it up.
Rocco asks Roxy several times if he should stop and she replies with "no" each time. The rest of the time the only think I hear her saying is "yes, yes yes!" repeatedly.
I never knew there was any uproar over this scene, other than the one trying to be created in this thread.
OK, so I didn't miss something then. I was confused by the initial statement. I thought the first "Ibiza" was more worthy of comment because she was treating Rocco like a little bitch and then he annihilated her little butt, but it all appeared to be in "context." Well, whatever ... I'm sure this will boost rentals. 3SB, you'll be waiting awhile ... LOL.
Well now I have to go back and watch it again, but I'll have to put on headphones so I can turn up the volume. I've had kids home all week (spring break) so I watched it with the sound just barely audible. I may have to post that retraction without even having to watch the whole movie.
Nothing says I love you so much as a tongue in the ass. 2884 Posts 1/03
Posted - Apr 8 2006 : 3:44PM
When Rocco asks her pointedly if she wants to stop, she says no on a couple of occasions. There are a lot of other no's coming out of her mouth while she's being reamed, but some of them can be taken as just verbal outbursts. She was clearly struggling and tried to get a reprieve with A2M, which Rocco denied her. Then she tried to talk him into cumming and he told her it was too soon. I don't think he would have had that talk with her at the start of the party if he didn't know he went too far. In all fairness, I need to see the first part for context, because it looked like Rocco was teaching Roxy a lesson in respecting a superior force. I can't imagine what Angel Dark must have been thinking, as she was only inches away from this with Nacho.
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - Apr 8 2006 : 6:58PM
picman wroteFrom the care-free looking smile on her face, I was under the impression that she was busy enjoying herself too much to really care what was going on between the other couple. At least that's the way it looked to me. Angel and Nacho didn't look the least bit interested in minding what Rocco and Roxy were doing. Actually, if this is true, I think they took the right approach. I myself am still failing to see why this scene is now suddenly such a topic of concern.
Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous? 4283 Posts 4/00
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 2:47AM
I spent a lot of the weekend talking about this with Rocco. I also spoke to Jazz Duro and Nacho Vidal about their story of what they saw, including things that someone who wasn't there will never know.
I didn't get a chance to talk to Jamie Brooks, who at the time was one of Roxy's best friends, but Jazz assured me that after the Ibiza trip, Jamie said that yes, Roxy had been upset during the Ibiza movie, but least of all about how hard Rocco was or wasn't fucking her. I am absolutely not the type of person who spreads gossip, so I will not go any further into what happened when the camera was off. I have known Rocco for a lot of years, though, and have seen him on sex with a wide variety of girls. From what I have seen, if a girl can't take how rough he wants to get, he doesn't get rougher with the girl, he just gets bored. He loves to push a girl to her limits, but I have never thought that trying to physically or emotionally hurt a girl is one of Rocco's turn-ons.
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - Apr 11 2006 : 12:08AM
tricia_devereaux wroteYou could always just say that we didn't hear it from you.
I don't know why I found this thread in my first page , I didn't know anything about this mistreatment (if it was as such) , but I'm curious about Pagoda's final thoughts after having entirely seen that movie , they're still missing.
Would you please enlight us with your final judgment?
I didn't saw that movie yet which is very strange since two of my favourites Angel Dark and Roxy Jezel are in there , that's why I'm curious I won't support in any way any mistreatment to stars if really this was what happened in Ibiza I'll never get that movie.
Edited by - Laurie Cameron Fan on 10/28/2006 7:19:49 AM
Legendary Alinas First Anal - review by bono-one
Posted - Apr 5 2006 : 10:14AM
