I came across this recent Jan. interview that Rocco Siffredi gave to "Le Soir", a Brussels Belgium newspaper, when I was looking for reviews of his latest mainstream film, Anatomie de l'enfer (which I'm not having much luck finding). In the interview, there were some views on porn expressed by Rocco, some of them unexpected, that I thought might be interesting for people to read, in light of the comments posted on this page of the recent "Too much Double Anal" thread, especially with regards to the attitudes that people in the porn industry have with respect to themselves and others.
I translated the French article ( http://www.lesoir.be/rubriques/cultur/page_5177_186587.shtml) using my rather limited French and the google language translator. If anyone feels I need to make corrections, I will happily do so:
Le Soir: Is it easy to abandon the character of Rocco to become someone else, in this case a homosexual (for the main character in Anatomie de l'Enfer, who has a brief affair with a woman)? Rocco: That is much more than a simple challenge for an actor. Because, really, I have never wanted to be a traditional movie actor! I've always focused myself towards the sexuality of the women, and I've made this my job. I did not want to be a gigolo. When I met Gabriele Pontello, the famous XXX actor, I discovered porn, a job that allowed me to have sex, a job where the woman and man are both paid to do something for viewers. With my previous mainstream film, Romance, I came to understand the difference between porn and traditional cinema. In porn, one works deals with physical sensations. In traditional movies, one works on emotions. Emotion is very rare in porn, because one doesn't give this much time or research. Porn is mechanical, it is an industry. As a porn producer, I try to make my films different. My ambitions are to make a different kind of hardcore film. As a porn actor, I will stop making films in a year or two, for the sake of my wife and my children. If I have to remain a porn actor to please others, I will end up in an insane asylum.
Of the 10,000 porn films released each year, 99% are shit. Now, I don't spit on this industry. [In French: Sur les 10.000 X qui sortent par an, 99 % sont de la merde. Je ne crache pas sur le métier.] I have been inside the industry for 19 years, but porn and traditional movies are two worlds that don't share much in common…..
…..Myself, I am for eroticism. I am very cerebral. I have been initiated into this way by women. I have learned a lot from them. For my porn productions, I have made much more use of the mentality of women, because that of men is far too limited. In fact, my porn flicks disturb more men than women. Also important for me is to have good chemistry when casting a porn film…..
You'll notice that there's not a lot of Rocco discussion these days on this site. I think the most ardent porn fans have moved away from his stuff, just as they have moved away from Private. The reasons differ, but in both cases, the so-called "raincoaters" have shifted their purchasing power to A/D, and now moreso to RLD, and most recently, to Digital Sin.
What do these companies have in common? They tend to produce movies that focus on sex acts themselves, not context or human interaction, other than aggressive anal intercourse. This doesn't mean that Rocco and Private don't continue to do well, but they are not so much part of the sphere of many ADT posters these days.
Think about how many times there have been comments in the past couple of years complaining that Rocco is "getting softer" in his productions. There is a segment of viewers who simply want want hard straight forward action, and they will seek it out. Rocco used to make movies more in this vein (no pun intended) for a variety of reasons, including talent of both genders that weren't willing to display much emotion onscreen. Rocco actually planned to retire from in front of the camera a couple of years ago, but has stayed as a performer because the situation changed. He found girls willing to be expressive, and guys who could bring out the best in the girls, instead of showing off for their buddies while treating the women like blowup dolls. So Rocco refound an enthusiasm he had largely lost by 1998.
But what enthused Rocco, and what I personally enjoy seeing, simply isn't what some others want. And that's fine, there's room for all different types of scenes. I've enjoyed most of Rocco's recent output far more than what I've seen of his older stuff, because there was more of a human touch to it, more of an effort to capture feminine sexuality onscreen, so in that light, I found his interview comments to make a lot of sense. Thanks for posting this.
I agree with what you're saying, Speelie, but it's not so simple. Some of us have moved away from Rocco because we're tired of the group-sex scenes. Maybe those kinds of scenes are part of what keeps Rocco's enthusiasm kindled, in which case more power to him, but my enthusiasm for group sex, never large, is headed in the other direction.
You are giving a bad impresion to Rene about raincoaters, Speelie, my friend. Not all raincoaters are the same. I stop buying Rocco videos some time ago because I got tired of always being disapointed with the amount of time he paid to the girls I (really) like in his videos. Since Rocco is always fucking multiple girls in all his scenes he never can pay enough attention to the ones I like. He is constantly jumping from one pussy to the other, making those girls just that ...anonimous "pussies" with not face ..If Rocco could only fuck a girl (hoping is my girl) in one on one action once in a while, I'll gadly go back to buy his videos again. ..I wouldn't care if there is not anal (yes, you hear right) but at least I would like to see rocco concentrating in one girl for more than a couple minutes straight during a scene....To make my point even more clear, the Nacho/Cinderella scene in the Killer Pussy video is what I would like to see in rocco's. ...Like you say the Human touch is there but for me once the sucking and fucking starts the human touch dessapear. Besides; I buy my porn for the girl, and not the guy. I want to see my favorite girl getting fucked by Rocco ..not Rocco fucking a girl. ...Big diference my dear friend, Big diference. ..just my 2 cents.
I see. And the vast majority of RLD films improve on this by introducing the girl and then focussing on fucking her, which makes it so much easier to become involved in the scene, yeah? Don't buy that.
The way Rocco sets up his scenes isn't too different to the way Christoph does it (or at least did it till his latest work). He generally introduces a scenario, and the sex goes from there. I'm as hardcore a raincoater as the next guy, and I love Rocco's movies. He brings a charisma few other performers bring. His choice of camera used to be crap, but that's improved. I never feel the pussies are anonymous, or at least no less than in current American gonzo. He gives us the 'tableau ensemble', with movement and plenty of things to focus on. I don't know about other raincoaters, but I get bored just watching the one girl get fucked again and again. Give me the dynamism of a Rocco scene, where two or three girls take on the man or men. I like the decadence of his scenes, which I just do not feel with stuff I've seen from Ev Erotica, PXP (although Steve and Manuel are an exception), ZT and most of RLD.
This applies to much of modern porn. I don't see how Rocco's movies suffer more from this than others.I get films for the girls too, but I know a scene in a Rocco film will be a little more interesting visually than in a standard one-girl-scene effort from an American gonzo line. Maybe it ultimately comes down to porn reflecting that renowned European decadence, as opposed to American gonzo-porn sexual efficiency. His recent stuff has had less anal and less intensity and I agree that does make me lose a little interest, but his sensibilities and style in direction still make his work relevant.
If you like seeing your girl get fucked Wally, all to her own scene, that's cool. However, there's something about scenes like the opener to ANIMAL TRAINER 11, with the erotic set-up and all that flesh on the benches, or the first scene in INITIATIONS 4 with the pretty girls being so fey and then transforming into oh-so-nasty. It's that shimmer that porn can have that hides behind its veil the unbridled nastiness, as opposed to the bald fucking of the sort of gonzo revered on these boards.
Rocco has way too many group sex scenes, ugly girls with bad teeth, and an occasional fat chick or grandma scene thrown in for good measure. He also doesn't fuck the girls with as much vigour as he used to. And the picture quality of his movies (even on dvd) look like they are taken from a second generation vhs tape.
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DenverDon Benevolent
Firmly Embedded in Depravity 5914 Posts 7/02
Posted - Feb 13 2004 : 9:51AM
That's what Rocco says, but the few I viewed I got the exact opposite impression, that the girls were there just so Rocco would have some place to insert his meat stick. I simply did not see the 'sexuality of women' displayed IMO.
I actually have not purchased any Rocco DVDs, but only rented them to see what Rocco was all about. I went in other directions for my purhcases.
I for one love the multi-girl scenes. I prefer lesbian scenes with more than two girls. And reverse gang-bangs are my ultimate fantasy - I liked Rocco's first two - but the third one was just bad. I don't see why he had to take them two at a time into separate rooms. I liked to see them all bent over and lined up like in the first one. I don't know why he went away from that - because then it wasn't really a gangbang. One other fan -I'm not an anal fan - which titles recently do you recommend where he went "light on the anal"?
Rocco is forever deified in my mind by the presence of True Anal Stories #9 with Svetlana (Meridian) and Suzan. Then, there is Rocco's Private Fantasies 2 with Renata and Silvia Saint in those thigh high leather boots. I can't speak any more. There's more, but those...shizzat.
My birthday's coming up, the anniversary of me joining ADT and ordering my first adult DVD -- now I'm off to order more, because at least that TAS 9 is out on DVD as of a few months back, and it's not in my mailbox yet. This must be corrected.
OH YEAH -- there's one with Zara Whites, too, oh Zara, I miss you as much or more than Vanessa. Damn, I gotta go spend some money. Remember when adult VHS were $60-80? I bet I get all three of these for around $60. Rocco, old pal, let's remember you in your prime, shall we?
As to emotion and what all -- see, when Silvia bounces RAC in those boots on Rocco's rocket - DAMN! It inspired my first Walter quote - my life is more complete. It sure was pretty. I'm convinced this is pretty much all I need; my imagination fills in the little details (like putting my head on Rocco's body). *$$ Cha-ching $$* happy valeninte's day to me
i've always found rocco to be one of the best male performers. he always seems passionate about his performance and very much the opposite of how he describes porn as "mechanical" in the article. he seems to have a style and character that are very unique.
i do not however own any of his movies. it has been mentioned that he focuses on group action and i prefer mostly one on one. he does often include older people as well as occationally she-males. also, many of his movies contain scene set-ups or plotted dialogue. all those things are fine and i've never seen any movie of his that i didn't enjoy, but i just don't have any interest in purchasing any of his movies that i have seen so far.
If there's one negative about Rocco that I have, it's the multiple girls scenes, where he either spends most of the time with one girl anyway, or he spends too little time with each girl. I think it was Lindi or Lunacy who wrote in an ADT review of one of his films, that Rocco can be like a toddler, who can't decide which toy to play with, so he has to have all his toys out at the same time, and he plays with one for half a minute, then another for 2 minutes, and so on....
Occasionally, maybe 20% of the time, he by chance pairs himself with a woman that he's attracted to, for whatever reason. Those are the scenes of his that I like the best. He'll focus his energy on that one woman, really pay attention to her, and he also looks more interested in what's going on, as well. One of these women is Elizabeth in "Rocco Invade Poland", and she's also in Animal Trainer 13, where she's billed as Kety. Both times, Rocco settled down and focused in on her, even with other women around.
I don't quite understand why in the newspaper, he says that more women like his porn work, and that more men dislike it. That certainly isn't the case here among the women who post on ADT. Maybe half like him, and the other half actively dislike him, for reasons that I can understand. Perhaps Rocco gets more fan mail from women, so he's under the impression that he's got more female fans than male. But I bet anything, that a good 90% of the people who watch his movies are male. Perhaps he has this impression, because the three times he's been in mainstream films, he's worked under a woman director, who was a fan of his porn movies first. Or, he simply thinks he's irresistable to women, those who watch porn, and even those who don't.
Whatever, I certainly hope he quits working as an actor in porn films when he wants to, before he ends up in that insane asylum.
I think that Rocco has set the standards for great porn.I dont love everything he does butt heck no one's perfect.personally I would like to see the producers/directors over here take some pointers from his films.his energy and intensity is unsurpassed imho all the request we get in this forum for great a2ogm the guys should watch Sandy Insatiable.Sandy even rims a girl while Rocco is in her ass.Rocco Rules Porn !
When I circulated the pic of Rocco & me to my alumni email list last year, more women knew who he was than men. (While it was vice versa with Ron Jeremy) Perhaps there aren't enough females (besides those connected to the business) on this board to properly sample female opinion of him. I know quite a bit of female Rocco fans from just talking about porn on a casual basis. Most know him from his Vivid "Loves" series.
Edited by - morbidthoughts on 2/14/2004 12:15:07 AM
Still wanking after all these years. 8082 Posts 10/00
Posted - Feb 13 2004 : 11:46PM
Is he saying what he does is great and the rest shit? Frankly I have not seen one Rocco directed movie that was above average, he's done some great stuff but as an actor, directed by John Stagliano mostly...
Then you need to get yourself a copy of ANIMAL TRAINER 4 or ROCCO'S WAY TO LOVE. Agree the Stagliano stuff looks great, but give me ANIMAL TRAINER 4 over BUDA or FACE DANCE anyday...although ASS COLLECTOR is the gold standard.
I've always wondered what it would be like seeing Rocco in a Christoph movie. Christoph's camerawork and sensibilities with Rocco's enthusiasm as a performer (which he has probably all but lost now.)
That would be films like "Jenna Loves Rocco" and the like? I know that in the early to mid 90's, he was making more feature films for other directors, that were pretty tame, especially by today's standards.
When talking about his fans, I mean the ones who watch his Evil Angel films, whether his or Stagliano's. I wonder how many women are familiar with this side of his work, which can't be called tame by any measure. I wonder what the same female Vivid fans would think if they saw "Rocco's Way to Love" or any of the Animal Trainer films?
By the way Morbid, could you post that picture of you and Rocco here, either in this thread, or tell me where to go see it?
----------------------------------------------------------- Renee wrote: I don't quite understand why in the newspaper, he says that more women like his porn work, and that more men dislike it. That certainly isn't the case here among the women who post on ADT. ----------------------------------------------------------- Mason wrote:
That certainly IS the case for this woman who posts on ADT. I love Rocco, and have had quite a few fantasies about being his whore for a night.
I wasn't being clear earlier; I was refering to porn fans (and I believe Rocco is as well in the newspaper article), not women who work in the porn industry.
When I think back on all the threads about Rocco over the past six months that I've seen, I'm often the only woman fan who posts on them, and one of the few female porn fans who's familiar with his work. When I've looked at the ADT reviews of his DVD's, the only other women who've written any are Lindi and Dumblonde, and they weren't too impressed by him (understandable to me, their tastes are different from mine.) So, that's where I figured that Rocco has more male fans than female ones.
By the way, it was Lindi who made the "toddler" comparison in one of her reviews. And I think it's right on about him. There are times I wonder if Rocco has ADHD, or something.
I wasn't being clear earlier; I was refering to porn fans (and I believe Rocco is as well in the newspaper article), not women who work in the porn industry.
------------------------------------------------------------ Are they mutually exclusive?
To try and clear up some of the confusion (including my own) about who Rocco is talking about in his interview, I went back and more carefully translated this part of it, and the paragraph previous to it. I'll first post the original French, then my translation:
Que pensez-vous de la force de la suggestion ? Quand les choses sont bien faites, la suggestion est beaucoup plus intéressante. Malheureusement, l’expression cérébrale induit l’envie de voir aussi. Donc, les deux sont indissociables. Dans le porno, dès qu’on sort le sexe, la suggestion disparaît et on s’ennuie. Moi, je suis pour l’érotisme. C’est votre recherche en tant que producteur dans le X ? Absolument. Je suis très cérébral. J’ai été initié par les femmes. Elles m’ont beaucoup appris. Pour mes productions, j’utilise plus la mentalité des femmes, car celle des hommes est très, trop limitée. D’ailleurs, mes films pornos dérangent plus les hommes que les femmes ! L’important, pour moi, c’est de trouver la bonne chimie lors du casting. Dans la pornographie classique, vous n’avez pas besoin de vous inquiéter de ça !
Le Soir: What do you think of the strength of the suggestion (referring to the psychological aspects of sexuality)? Rocco: When things are well made, this suggestion of sexuality is much more interesting. Unfortunately, this cerebral expression leads one to want to see something more (explicit). Therefore, the two cannot be separated. In porn, when the sex comes on, this suggestion disappears and one gets bored. Myself, I am for eroticism. Le Soir: This comes from your research as a porn producer? Rocco: Absolutely. I am very cerebral. I have been initiated into this by women. They have taught me much. For my porn productions, I utilize more the mentality of the women, because that of the men is very, is limited too much. Moreover, my skin flicks bother more men than women! It's important for me to find good chemistry at the time of the casting. In classical pornography (feature films?), you don't have to worry about that!
The only thing I'm quite certain of, is that Rocco is referring to the movies he produces, not the films he's done for Vivid or VCA. It's still not clear to me when he says men are more bothered by his films than women, if he means the male porn actors compared to female porn actresses that he casts, or if he means men in general, compared to women, who watch porn. Maybe someone at Evil Angel should ask him for clarification on this point.
I love watching Rocco movies, I have heard nothing but good things about Rocco's Way To Love and it is high on my list of porn to get. Rocco's intensity is higher than any performer I have ever seen. He is simply a madman when it comes to fucking.
My interpretation may not be accurate, but the first thing that comes to my mind in reading Rocco's comments in that translation is that the sorts of scenes he does are more likely to appeal to women, because men would prefer more straight ahead action that simply involves having the woman/women be available, and lie there and take it. I can think of plenty of productions that make no effort to portray the sexuality of the women involved, they serve merely as living blowup dolls (the initials PW come to mind), and Rocco is claiming to want to capture something more than that. Again, this could be simply my brain interpreting what it wants to read.
Really excellent points from everyone in this thread. First, I'm a little shocked that women only make up 10% of Rocco's fan base. I assumed the number would be higher considering the popularity of his Evil Angel releases (even despite an audience backlash) and his softer, but still highly intense, work for Vivid. I was in a small adult shop the other day and a lady came in and asked for a title with an extraordinarily handsome man in it. The cashier pointed her to a DVD with him on the cover and I witnessed as her eyes lite up with excitement before she purchased the disc.
I like Rocco's work because I think the best and most talented directors are ones who do not force themselves (or the viewers) to choose between the two (i.e., a female getting fucked by Rocco vs. Rocco fucking a female) but instead focus more on the overall flow of the scene, capturing all that it has to offer and letting the viewer decide what turns them on the most. Most of the top directors in the industry are pretty good about this and include a healthy dose of both chemistry between the performers mixed with the traditional hardcore sex acts filmed in constrained close-ups that the "raincoater" generation is so fond of. Basically it comes down to the fact that different people like to see different things in different contexts and that's what is so great about the industry. It's so big and there's such a wide, diverse viewer base that there really is something for everyone. If you know the right companies & directors to look for, the best are the ones who combine those things. This could be said about a lot of Rocco Siffredi movies.
I think the difference between American & European all-sex features (and this applies to direction, camera techniques, editing, etc.) is that the European market (much of which is released here with profitable results) realizes that not every hardcore sex act has to be filmed the exact same way each time. The European directors are much more diverse & apt to spread their footage out, appealing to a wider range of viewers. The one thing I have kind of missed is that, after the wonderful FASHIONISTAS, Rocco seems to have lost the rougher side of his passion in his movies as a performer. Still, when I see a scene like the one he did with Agnès in ROCCO INVADES POLAND, I'm reminded why I enjoy watching his performances so much. I too long to see a more realistic & human touch between Rocco and a beautiful female performer and I'll watch "Rocco fucking a girl" every chance I have. : - )
I don't think, for myself, that Rocco's movies have changed too much over the years, apart from the noted move towards multiple girls in every scene. Going back to his earliest features as a director, there has always been this desire to capture sexual authenticity--as I think I mentioned some time ago in another thread. Rocco is perhaps speaking of this when he uses the term "cerebral," which I at first found odd in the context of his work. Perhaps he is referring to the psychological sex games he seems to play with many of the girls in his films. Rocco seems to take it upon himself, if the female performer is withdrawn, or sullen, or suspicious in front of the camera, to break down these barriers during the course of the scene, to "break in" his co-stars (hence the Animal Trainer moniker?). He is charming, manipulative, humane, or forceful as the occasion warrants, and sometimes he fails. But when he succeeds, it creates a certain validity to the sex that you rarely get in porn. And Rocco puts a lot of pressure on himself to get this kind of emotional, raw response--certainly it is rolling the dice in the professional sense, because if the scene implodes, you've wasted the days work (maybe this is why you put multiple girls on the set every day).
Let me explain this in another way. If you have pondered crossing a sexual barrier in a personal relationship, is it better to try to persuade your partner at the dinner table, or in the middle of the sexual moment? You might still fail--she could hit you with a lampshade and leave the room--but you could also, with patience, consideration, extended sex-play and the right sense of timing, move her (or him, since this works both ways) to extend herself in ways she would not, in her usual rational state, consider. Now apply this analogy to the VERY cool, detached, cautious persona of many porn performers, male and female. Now see how Rocco aims to trample on that persona. He aims for the moment of psychological submission; when, after a hours of verbal coercion and passionate fucking, he can get the girls to agree to stuff on camera that they had told him before the shoot that day they would not do, never mind the fee; that is a very erotic moment, when on-screen seduction adds up to something more than clinical sex. And when he is matched with a performer who is by nature uninhabited and ready to go wherever Rocco leads her (such as Amanda Angel, or Ellen Duval, or Jennifer Dark recently), the scenes are often at a coruscating level.
Forgive my ramble. Rocco also makes his share of crappy movies, where none of this works. I should also add that his massive influence in all things porn (particularly in Europe, where many of the younger studs try shamelessly to imitate him) has probably had a generally negative impact on wall-to-wall gonzo. His psycho-sexual sex-games of submission are a far cry from the slap and gag antics of many of the "rough sex" gurus who have followed him into the porno marketplace.
Lazerus, as always, you are on the mark with your comments about the psychological games Rocco plays with certain actresses, whom he wants to go farther than they originally agreed to. And it's hot when he makes some headway, and the actress is enjoying her new-found sexual experience; those are definitely Rocco's best scenes for me.
Thinking about his comment in the newspaper, about men being bothered more by his films than women, I wonder if he means that the men he hires for his films are more obstinate about pushing their sexual boundaries than the women. For instance, Rocco himself will have women slap him hard on the face, or pull his hair hard, or finger him in the ass, or he'll kiss a woman right after he's come on her. Yet, I rarely see other men in his films do those things, though I bet he has asked them to.
In dealing with actors, Rocco is at a disadvantage compared with actresses. He can't work his sexual charms on a man to persuade him, so he loses his biggest advantage. The male actors are older than the women, and probably feel more confident about saying what they won't do. And, I think the biggest leverage the men have is that they know Rocco cannot easily replace them. With the pool of available porn actors so small, Rocco has to live with whomever he can find. On the other hand, the pool of women is ever changing, and if a woman refuses to do something, Rocco can find 5 who will for the same amount of money, and he'll never hire that first woman again, I speculate.
He may think that the porn actresses are naturally more sexually adventurous, but I think there's more to this than that.
Oplvr made the comment that Rocco seems to have lost his porn edge after making the Fashionistas. About 3 months after making this one, Rocco did the filming for the mainstream movie "Anatomie de l'enfer" which had a 6-8 week shooting schedule, and apparently this had some affect on him. Plus, he keeps mentioning in all the recent interviews he's done that his children are uneasy about his porn career.
IAFD, supporters of beastiality. Just say no. 7564 Posts 11/02
Posted - Feb 16 2004 : 1:30PM
Lazerus, you are a fan of 'blissful rupture', I see, a true lover of 'voyeuristic, ethical porn'.Could it have something to do with the Madonna/Whore complex? If Rocco's 'cerebral' aim of his porn, is to break down the barriers of his female performers, could it not be that he is in fact 'awakening' their strong sexuality, turning the 'Madonnas' into 'whores'. Maybe that is where the 'fear' of a large part of the male audience is coming from. By turning the girls into 'whores' with a strong sexuality of their own, the men both fear that they may lose the Madonna AND the control of the sexuality of the female that goes with that. Nothing fears a man more than a woman with a strong sexuality of her OWN, that is outside the control of himself. 'Letting go' is both powerful and frightening, for men and women. The women in Rocco's films 'let themselves go', while the men are asked 'to allow the female to let herself go'. It could be said that the woman gain something by this, while the men have to give up something. Hence, a possible reason why men are being bothered more by Rocco's films than women??
Man, look at me, I am 'making meaning'. I hate myself now. Luckily, I am questioning myself a lot. I would even preferred it if I had used even more question marks.
Wally said: "If only those guys could use their imagination once in a while porn could be a lot hotter than the cold hamburger they feed us today."
What is so scary about a woman with a strong sexuality? I know the point you are making, Walter, but I still am at a loss about why this is so. Similarly, I have read about Michelle Wie (14 year old Hawaiian girl who has played successfully in golf tournaments with grown men) being perceived as a threat by some males. As a big fan of college-level womens' volleyball and basketball, this "threat" is also confusing to me.
But then I remember that many people, male and female, are hung up on cultural stereotypes of what it means to "be a man" (or a woman). Without some macho BS nonsense, plenty of guys have no identity of their own. Rocco has no time for this nonsense, he's a being exploring sexuality though the admittedly limited realm of on camera porn, and trying to pull other beings of both genders with him. Not everyone is eager to come along for the ride, but with the right people, it can be darn fun to watch.
Maybe the thought of having a woman who is highly sexual is enticing at first , but threatening if you begin to wonder where else she may be expressing herself , and with who else . It seems like a control issue . The accepted ( generally ) status quo would appear to be that women must in some way 'seek permission' for their sexuality from their male ( or other female ) partner . And it is only after this permission has been granted that they can find the heady release of sexual abandon . For example I once had a girlfriend who took a long time to get wet , and when she did get aroused it was ( it seemed , and so she told me ) largely taken from my own arousal . As the male , you get to hold that permission which gives you a good deal of control in a relationship . But now along comes Rocco , so goes the argument as I read it , who is 'unlocking' all these women from their dependency on men . Effectively he's freeing them , in the minds of some men , and allowing them to make their own decisions about their future sexual release .
The problem I have with Rocco is that he is a dancer with little or no time for his partner . He does understand the women ( and often it seems to be little girls ) with whom he is paired far better than most of the other male performers , but he uses his awareness to conquer rather than lead . In the , admittedly limited , number of Rocco scenes which I've watched he doesn't leave much if any room for his women to express themselves or seek out the things which might please them . I have to question then whether we've actually learned anything at all about the female performer or seen any true sign of her sexuality . It appears to be him calling the shots and deciding just which part of the woman she will show , not her reaching down inside herself and releasing what is trapped within .
Mostly Rocco so dominates the action ( again from what I've seen ) that the only imponderable is just how far he's going to be able to push this particular woman , not what chemistry if any they can create together . The problem this causes for me is that each scene ends up being essentially the same - about Rocco . And unfortunately I find myself far more interested in women than men . Even more unfortunately I'm repulsed , not only by his more extreme forms of love play but also by his incessant need to psychologically dominate his partner . Maybe if he played both sides of the game more often it would feel different to me ? Who knows , or cares for that matter !
It's true that he does use his many talents extremely well , one minute playing on his looks , the next on his muscular physicality in order to cajole the girls into doing what he wants . But his story is a predetermined tale , which tends to follow a very obvious course . ( Yes I'm aware that most porn is predictable ) Either he'll get the girl to do what he wants or he won't , but either way we won't get to see what she might have wanted . The only element of her sexuality which is likely to be explored is her willingness to submit to his will .
I don't know how others feel about him , but I find myself in two minds about Rocco . On the one hand he's the most clearly human ( less of an automaton ) of all the male sex performers I've seen , and he obviously takes the time to notice his women and get a feel for them ( something which most men ignore ) . But at the same time , and having learnt what he needs to about the girls , he then quite coldly and remorselessly bends them to fit his desire . I don't think his ability to act so harshly is a very attractive quality . Then again maybe I'm just too soft for my own good . There have been opportunities in my own life when I could've taken advantage of women in a weakened state , but the shame felt too high a price to pay for the meagre reward . Is that Rocco's ultimate ability ? A capacity for shamelessness ?
Is it possible that I've seen a very unrepresentative selection of Rocco's work , and that there's far more to the man ? Maybe someone could recommend some titles where he allows the women more leeway to express themselves , while still remaining the brooding presence that I realise others very much enjoy .
Nothing says I love you so much as a tongue in the ass. 2884 Posts 1/03
Posted - Feb 16 2004 : 4:07PM
This sentiment might be what Rocco means when he says that his porn disturbs more men than women. I think in some way you have to separate Rocco the man from Rocco the pornographer. The porn that he makes is definitely not what most women are looking for if they have an interest in porn. On the other hand he most certainly appeals to most women. He is still boyishly handsome, charming and physically blessed with size and stamina. He also has a passion that his foils tend to respond to. He's the ultimate bad boy. He also seems to genuinely love women. The opening scene in Rocco Invades Poland shows how comfortable he is in a room full of women and seems to understand that they never completely lose that little girl inside of themselves. Even while he was being crude there was always a sense of fun. I can imagine that part of his perceptions about his acceptance might also come from his fan mail. When discussing his ouvre you also have to take in his films with Stagliano. Granted, it would be impossible to restrain him, but the mere fact that it's somebody else's film must have some affect. I think some of his most accessible performances might be right there.
IAFD, supporters of beastiality. Just say no. 7564 Posts 11/02
Posted - Feb 16 2004 : 6:18PM
Lee, having seen almost all his directorial work, I must say that there are many different Rocco's. While some of his scenes do reflect what you are talking about, others absolutely do not. It seems to me that he adapts himself far more to the women/girls he is working with, than vice versa. He is not a solo dancer at all, if you ask me. If you want to check out work "where he allows the women more leeway to express themselves", check out almost anything he has done with Kelly Stafford. It is almost always Rocco who is trying to calm her down, not the other way around. She seems to be pushing him far more than he is pushing here. FWIW, Kelly's Perversion in Paris (I saw the uncut Euro version, not the Evil Angel version), is a perfect example of what I described when I talked about the 'fear' of men: it left me shitless, in a very bad way, I might add. But you really don't have to go to the extremes of Kelly. There are plenty other more self-assured women who have worked with Rocco on a much more equal basis. Laura Angel comes to mind. But also Jennifer Dark, who certainly had less experience, but who was able to mesmerize Rocco with her sexuality in Live in Prague .
About the different kinds of Rocco, I found it somewhat amusing that a French magazine once asked if Rocco had gone too far by making Rocco More Than Ever in London . They referred exclusively to the dungeon scene, where Rocco is dressed up in female garments and totally dominated by a horde of English girls. They didn't ask if he went too far when he was pushing Sandy's and Sidonie's (or was it Shalimar?, do you remember Gabriel??) heads in a toilet and flushing it. They only asked this when the tables were turned.
myk said: "Having bought a barbie for my daughter and spent half an hour untwisting all the metal ties that hold it in the box, I think I would have a tough time telling a normal barbie from bondage barbie."
The whole question of what sort of female sexuality is being portrayed in conventional pornography is, I believe, one of the most provocative topics in genre; it is certainly much more narrow that what we might see in print erotica, for example. With respect to Rocco, I agree to some extent with Lee O's comments on Rocco's impulse to lead and dictate the action (although, as Walter says, I think you will find exceptions if you look at his entire body of work, and I also think Rocco enjoys these scenes [and female partners] a great deal), but I would also say that this "blind spot" in Rocco's sexual make-up is also the weakness of about 90% of porn today--the woman as cock-socket (thanks Max), instead of co-conspirator. I remember Ellen45 starting 3 or 4 threads over the last few months asking for a reverse-gangbang scene where the females dominated the male in some form or another . . . and no one could come up with a single truly signature scene of this type (I thought of a few "sort of" examples, but nothing precise--and trust me, I have seen my share of porn; Jules Jordan's recent scene in FH6 is rather ground-breaking in this regard, although very few commentators have mentioned it).
One the other hand, and also in reference to several current threads about how so many girls are "robots" and "clock-watchers" in their scenes, I think it is worth noting how young many of these female performers are. Anyone 18 or 19, male or female, is just at the beginnings of their sexual identity. To throw these adolescent girls in the ring with someone like Rocco or Nacho Vidal is almost comical in some respects. Rocco must be a tad uncomfortable, and a trifle bored as well, with all this pubescent flesh--but that is the marketplace, and the talent pool available, or so we assume. I think he handles these scenes the only way he can in most of these instances, because "waiting for permission" (to use Lee O's term)defines much teenage sexuality, at least as I vaguely remember it. Hence the Initiations series.
Warning: theoretical discussion ahead.
(I would also like to point out that the sexual awakening of the female is perhaps the most used story/theme in pornographic film history. In one way or another, it works its way through various classics from Behind the Green Door and Deep Throat to Misty Beethoven to Nothing to Hide , etc., and Rocco is one of the few contemporary pornographers who has kept this theme alive, from his Sandy films onwards. The sexual empowering of the female is a very important narrative idea in porn, and one that has largely been lost in place of the Max Hardcore version of same: the sexual abjection of the female. This moment of "making meaning," you will note, I have kept in parenthesis, far away from the rest of the post.)
IAFD, supporters of beastiality. Just say no. 7564 Posts 11/02
Posted - Feb 17 2004 : 5:10PM
Lazerus, that is not exactly "making meaning", not the way I use the concept anyhow. Identifying a current theme is not the same as trying to explain its meaning. As such, your paragraph in parenthesis is not so much a theoretical discussion, as a historical one (except, perhaps, the conclusion about the stuff of Max Hardcore). Proof: it can be questioned or researched on its merit by using historical data. Speaking of which, you have forgotten (or, to be more precise, didn't need another example) that lots of European narrative porn is focused on the theme of female sexual awakening. It can be argued that a company like Video Marc Dorcel has made this theme part of its house style. Almost all the Laure Sainclair titles are basicly nothing but sexual awakening stories, and this tradition goes way back, to the beginning of VMD.
About Rocco and the way he relates to his female partners. Experience of the female certainly plays an important role. But I would like to make a distinction between "leading and dictating the action" and denying the girls "to express themselves". While the former may be true, the fact that Rocco constantly adapts his modus operandi (granted, very often in very small details, but those details in execution are invariably the things I am interested in, not so much the structural formal pattern of a scene, which tends to be the same for 90% of 'mainstream' porn anyway) to the way the girl is reacting to him, makes me believe that one (him "leading and dictating the action") is more often than not only but a means to an end (the girls expressing themselves). Take the scene with Lena, Vanessa and Alexa May in Rocco's True Anal Stories 18 . I know that some on this board don't like that scene, for various reasons. I like it a lot. There is a very appealing (to me) combination of sillyness, intension and chemistry at work in that scene, most of it played out in small, silent details of action. I would like to give special mention to Vanessa in the scene. No, she doesn't do anal; and no, she isn't leading the action — she doesn't even speak much. But IMO, she willingly — no, make that eagerly — lets Rocco 'open her up sexually'. Or at least, she gives a very good impression of it. Well, this is what I call "making meaning". A very personal account of what a scene does for me. I don't mind doing this much, because I want to make it clear that that "meaning" worked for me. Having read other people's reaction to that scene, I have realized that they tend to highlight other salient details of that scene and have totally ignored mine, to make their own meaning of it.
btw, Lazerus, interesting comparison between 'mainstream' porn and "print erotica". I am just wondering how that difference can be explained. How much of the difference is related to material differences (mainly between the semiotic systems of film and literature), how many to technical differences (the different aesthetic norms, used in film and literature) and how many to practical differences (the different social norms reflected in film and literature). You should write something about that.
Hardware said: "Cobalt60, quit watching porn over my shoulder!"
I believe all three girls you mentioned have had the toilet treatment at one time or another from Rocco.
Good point about Rocco More Than Ever. One could also wonder about the scenes in that movie where, for example, Ann Ingretton is used as a toilet by several men, or when Kris Newz and cronies "break" Donna Warner. The latter scene bothered me, and is in part responsible for my aversion to Mr Newz (which takes a form that is similar, I suspect, to Lee O's dislike of Rocco).
I generally found the two parts of this movie fascinating but also repellent, but I must admit I find the dungeon finale (along with the Alain Lyle scene in the aformentioned Perversion in Paris) to be among the most unpleasant I've witnessed. I just found that dungeon scene terribly self-indulgent,as if Rocco was actually exorcising the ghost of all the "nasty" stuff he did with the English girls.
This thing about guys' reaction to Rocco is interesting, as a few years back there was a lot of discussion on the BGAFD forum from male readers who felt somewhow protective towards those English roses (virtually every one of whom willingly allows Rocco & co to pee on them!).
Lee O, to see another side to Rocco I suggest any of the Initiations series, especially 2 where he makes the kind of connection that Lazerus and Walter are talking about with Claudia Jamsson, or the scene Walter mentions in TAS18 - the intimate moments between Rocco and Vanessa are special.
If you want to have a look at 3 different Rocco's, all in one title to same time and money, Animal Trainer 13 fits the bill well.
Scene 1 is a middle-of-the-road Rocco scene, him and 2 Hungarian women. He's medium interested in them, talks to them a little bit, and the sex is medium hot. Not his worst, not his best.
Scene 2 is Nacho Vidal, 2 Hungarian women and Rocco behind the camera. Nacho spends most of the time swearing, either at Rocco jokingly , or the women forcefully . rocco and nacho make jokes about the womens bodies, feel them up a lot, and during the break that is shown in the bonus footage, nacho and rocco are on one side of the room laughing it up in english , while the women sit by themselves quietly talking to each other in hungarian, staring at nacho like hes the village idiot . they might as well be on different planets. the sex suffers, as you can imagine.
scene 3 is rocco, hakan serbes and two polish women. this is rocco at his best, at least in terms of paying real "cerebral" attention to the women, particularly the redhead kety. he and she were more like lovers, probably because this was only her second porn scene (shes not a jaded, bored actress), and she and rocco made a real connection with each other.
as an added plus, this scene features one of the rarest of rocco moments, him actually taking care to make certain his partner has an orgasm:
, or the women forcefully . rocco and nacho make jokes about the womens bodies, feel them up a lot, and during the break that is shown in the bonus footage, nacho and rocco are on one side of the room laughing it up in english , while the women sit by themselves quietly talking to each other in hungarian, staring at nacho like hes the village idiot . they might as well be on different planets. the sex suffers, as you can imagine.
scene 3 is rocco, hakan serbes and two polish women. this is rocco at his best, at least in terms of paying real "cerebral" attention to the women, particularly the redhead kety. he and she were more like lovers, probably because this was only her second porn scene (shes not a jaded, bored actress), and she and rocco made a real connection with each other.
as an added plus, this scene features one of the rarest of rocco moments, him actually taking care to make certain his partner has an orgasm:
, or the women forcefully . rocco and nacho make jokes about the womens bodies, feel them up a lot, and during the break that is shown in the bonus footage, nacho and rocco are on one side of the room laughing it up in english , while the women sit by themselves quietly talking to each other in hungarian, staring at nacho like hes the village idiot . they might as well be on different planets. the sex suffers, as you can imagine.
scene 3 is rocco, hakan serbes and two polish women. this is rocco at his best, at least in terms of paying real "cerebral" attention to the women, particularly the redhead kety. he and she were more like lovers, probably because this was only her second porn scene (shes not a jaded, bored actress), and she and rocco made a real connection with each other.
as an added plus, this scene features one of the rarest of rocco moments, him actually taking care to make certain his partner has an orgasm:
, or the women forcefully . rocco and nacho make jokes about the women's bodies, feel them up a lot, and during the break that is shown in the bonus footage, nacho and rocco are on one side of the room laughing it up in english , while the women sit by themselves quietly talking to each other in hungarian, staring at nacho like he's the village idiot . they might as well be on different planets. the sex suffers, as you can imagine.
scene 3 is rocco, hakan serbes and two polish women. this is rocco at his best, at least in terms of paying real "cerebral" attention to the women, particularly the redhead kety. he and she were more like lovers, probably because this was only her second porn scene (she's not a jaded, bored actress), and she and rocco made a real connection with each other.
as an added plus, this scene features one of the rarest of rocco moments, him actually taking care to make certain his partner has an orgasm:
To be honest, for the longest time I wondered if he was even aware that a woman can have an orgasm, owing to the rarity of such events in his movies. Evidently Rocco does know about this aspect of female sexuality, after all . In the bonus footage, there's some of the raw footage for this scene, where you can see that Rocco was pretty subdued, spoke to the women in a quiet voice, and laid off the locker room jokes with either Hakan or Gabriel Zero. Completely opposite to Scene 2, and way better intensity as a result of the seriousness Rocco took with everything.
Perhaps Scene 3 is what he means when he is being "cerebral", that he means he goes for eroticism. Unfortunately, these scenes make up maybe 15-20% of his output; there are plenty of times he's callous towards the women, or just plain uninterested in them. Well, at least when you watch his films, you never know quite what you're going to get. Other porn actors are way more predictable, and not as exciting.
This is one of the most interesting topics I've had the pleasure of reading on this forum , so thanks to everyone for the insights which are helping to enlighten me . ( even if I realise they're not all for my benefit ! )
I've taken on board the suggestions for alternate Rocco performances that have been made so far , but it would also be useful to me if someone could provide a more general breakdown of the various Rocco lines . As far as I can make out there are 4 main series :
1) Initiations - Younger/Newer girls with possibly less aggressive sex ?
2) True Anal Stories - All anal with some attempt at setups ?
3) Animal Trainer - Dominant and aggressive sexuality ?
4) Travel Sex - Visiting a country and seeing what happens ?
The thought of buying a disc for only one scene ( even one as interesting as the Rocco and Hakan scene which Renee described ) isn't something that I could justify myself doing . Besides which , if the girls don't appeal to me then what's the point in watching ? Maybe a more general understanding would allow me to pick something out which is more likely to appeal . It could also help anyone else who might stumble across this thread .
BTW Aside from the general underlying sense of control which is a turn off for me ( in overdoses anyway ) , there are also a few more specific sex acts which I don't really want to watch too much more of anymore given the chance . They include ; hard skull fucking , obsessive gapping , choking , gagging , face slapping ( unless it's light hearted or reciprocal ) , and most double sex . If someone would be willing to give a brief overview of the various Rocco series and give their opinion on how they differ in terms of feel and sex acts it would be very useful to me .
Well, since we're on the subject of the numerous sides of Rocco, I've just become aware of one more. I was trying to get into the Rocco's English language website, and by mistake got into his Italian one. In the photos that go along with his recent "Hazardous Duty" title, there's this intriguing one:
(pic removed)
Evidently this footage is only on the Euro version of the film; I don't know if that would be available to you in Britain or not, Lee O. I'm pretty certain that the man kneeling behind the horse (pony? donkey?) and getting a BJ is Rocco. The funny thing about this, Rocco made a statement in an interview in a mainstream Spanish newspaper back in Nov. 2002 that he doesn't do work with animals or minors ("No trabajo con animales ni con menores", in http://www.elmundo.es/magazine/2002/162/1036066267.html).
Maybe the horse showed up at a casting call, begging to be in a sexy movie, to learn how to "make sex" as Rocco says, and Rocco couldn't resist . This man and his inconsistency never cease to amaze me.
Note to moderators: I hope it's ok to show this picture.
(sorry, it's not. please do not post or link to anything that is illegal in the US. i removed it. - steph)
Isn't INITIATIONS 7 a recent film? I haven't seen it, but do you think I should?
Interested to see how ANIMAL TRAINER 14 turns out, and then the Rocco-Jewel scene in ANIMAL TRAINER 15. If Jewel can't make you fuck with passion - who can?
I had the same feeling except it wasn't just about the dominant sexual behavior from the female performers. The entire film left me uneasy and, in my opinion, it's the best example I've seen of Rocco Siffredi's talent wasted, both behind & in front of the camera. I also watched the European version and whole cemetery scene kind of freaked me out. The scene with Kelly Straford & Alain Lyle could not have been more unappealing as was her final scene shot in London. Although it's not something that turns me on, I have no problem with female-on-male verbal and mental domination in the context of a sexual scene but I think there has to be an element of understanding between the performers for it to work. That was totally lacking in this movie and so the viewer is left with two humiliated male performers in different scenes unable to maintain their erections & Kelly Straford walking around not sure what to do next. The whole film just has a real uncomfortable vibe and, to make it worse, the editing is horrible too. I kept wishing Rocco would have handed the camera over and taken charge of the movie. That would have at least given it some level of heat.
Well, Renee, your (removed) pic is very interesting. I have always wondered about a few of those scenes with farm animals in Rocco's work . . .
Lee O, I think you will get quite a variety of responses about Rocco's various lines, and what is in them. Your own outline is more or less correct, but Rocco is not too predictable, in the way many other consumerist pornographers are. It's one of the reasons many of us like him; his movies usually have a few unexpected moments here and there. I would try Initiations 3 or 4 to begin with, or Live in Prague . they are a bit more varied and universal in their appeal, I suppose. I must say, whenever I think of Lenka's (V. Valli) scene in I4 , then see her now, I can barely recognize the same girl.
You are quite right Walter; the historical tradition of, shall we say, themes (and stories) of "female sexual awakening" are even more common in European hard and softcore porn. British stags, or the Schulmadchen series from the early 1970's, or various French classics during the hardcore boom, all come to mind. On the other hand, I'm not sure American films handle these materials in quite the same way. Worthy of further study. Also, I think your comments about reasons for the distinctions between various mediums used by pornographers are accurate, and I think this is an area of (dare I use the word relating to porn) scholarship almost completely unexplored up till now. Perhaps I will write about it more. We shall see.
I think Rocco has absorbed this sentiment from some of the directors with whom he has worked. Specifically, I showed Rocco in Joe D'Amato "Outlaws" [1998] last Saturday at the Twisted Spoke tavern. Joe D'Amato was not enthused about the explicit genré, or many of the performers whom he had to cast, but he always championed Rocco and cast him whenever possible. "Outlaws" is a two-parter [You can get it cheap on VHS or DVD from VideoAge.]; and the sex scenes with Rocco are intense jaw-droppers , with lengthy scenes that have no or few cuts (I think in part 2 he actually does get away with anal fisting. :O ) I got positive responses from our viewers last Saturday. Quite a few people took the time to tell me this. (And they don't have to interact with me at all. 8D )
“The world is full of people who want to screw up what we love.” - Michael Jackson (the Beer Hunter); 19 June 2003. My adult bookmarks.
, or the women forcefully . rocco and nacho make jokes about the womens bodies, feel them up a lot, and during the break that is shown in the bonus footage, nacho and rocco are on one side of the room laughing it up in english , while the women sit by themselves quietly talking to each other in hungarian, staring at nacho like hes the village idiot . they might as well be on different planets. the sex suffers, as you can imagine.