Isn't that what most people want from sex? Genuine and enthusiastic participation from their partner. That's what I want from sex, and that's what I want in my porn.

T.C.

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When a bunch of guys (a group) watch something, and a powerful leader (probably Howard Stern himself) tells the others what is good and not good, the leader will guide the outward decisions made by the group (groupthink). So I would take any comments made about preferences with a grain of salt. Probably, the comments reflects Howard's taste.

Third, the fans that count the most are the ones who buy lots of dvds and videos. A casual porn fan who rents 1 video a month and buys 1 dvd a year will have 1/360 the vote of a fan who buys 30 videos/dvds a month. This is just weighted voting -- voting with your money. The guys who post to this board and RAME spend money on the hard stuff and so producers rush to supply the demand. Casual porn fans may prefer softer gentler porn, but unless they spend real money buying a lot of softer gentler porn, such fans do not matter.

I do agree that many people like the softer stuff and there are many studios that cater to their needs. If more fans buy such releases, the supply will go up and we will see increases in the production of softer stuff. What drives the industry is the sales figure and because the harder stuff sells well, producers will rush to produce the harder stuff.

Ron

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The HUGE success of cable porn is evidence enough that a market for easily accessable porn. People don't watch cable porn because it's softer , they watch it because it less embarrassing than going down to the local video store and renting Ass Bandits 23, or even Erotic Tails 2. In order to forgo the embarrassment, many people will forgo the hardcore content. (I know, hard to imagine anyone would be embarrassed laying a copy of Erotic Tails 2 on the counter in front friends, neighbors and strangers, but many, perhaps even most people actually feel that way.)

Cut off from the cable revenue stream, hardcore producers produce pornography for people who need their DAPs so badly they'll suffer any indignity to get it. Meanwhile, Mr and/or Ms. John Q. Public, who'd just like to get turned on by seeing some nice fucking without being beaten about the head and shoulders by hokey plots and cheesy acting (take those away and there's nothing left for the cable version) get nothing.

You can't vote with your money if what you want doesn't exist.

T.C.

Edited by - TonyC on 10/2/2003 10:36:21 AM

Edited by - TonyC on 10/2/2003 12:58:18 PM

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I've never run an adult video store but I have run and worked for adult Internet sites. There are raincoater porn surfers, they join multiple paysites, as many as 10 concurrent memberships every month. They also spend alot of time inside the paysite downloading and viewing. But the truth is that the vast majority of adult paysite customers log in to a paysite a FEW times a month, that's it.

I'm sure AVN hasnt done anything on this but if they wanted to be a relevant industry publication of record they'd investigate the consumer market - i guarantee you that raincoaters are a small minority of the overall market. Yet producers listen to them as if they were the most important segment of the audience.

My point isn't that extreme gonzo doesn't have a big audience, my point is that producers are too focused on that audience and are missing out on an as big or bigger audience of guys whose tastes fall somewhere in between feature esthetics and extreme gonzo. I have seen these types of videos, on the Net, so i'm not sure which studio or title they belong to.

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My two cents

Quaze

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Edited by - aybesea on 10/2/2003 11:33:59 AM

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BTW: Much of what you call gonzo was pretty common in 70s porn (which is why they call it rain coaters I guess), and it was only the conservative 80s that caused the industry to retreat backwards.

Do I think porn should have limits - absolutely. I've made my opinions about choking quite clear, and I'm no fan of gagging/puking either, but those activities still aren't common. Not even in gonzo.

As far as GBs and DPs being "gayish", I'd say it depends on how it is shot.

An example would be guys getting in line for a blower.

Girl = O
Guys = C
Camera = X

I hate this view:

C C C C C C C
X O

In this scene you can see a whole row of cocks. No thanks.

I prefer this way:

O C C C C C C C C C
X

This way the guys are lined up, but I only see one at a time.

So I think many of Stern's opinions are based on camera angles, and not the content.

CC

Edited by - Cyberchicken on 10/2/2003 2:26:59 PM

Edited by - Cyberchicken on 10/2/2003 2:29:14 PM

Edited by - Cyberchicken on 10/2/2003 7:31:13 PM

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It's not accurate to use sales as a measure of demand or of needs met. People do watch softer stuff than they'd like just because it's easily available on cable, and they do watch harder stuff than they'd like just because it's readily available.

Another problem is that although the general public does watch porn, they have no idea what porn to get. Most of your neighbors have watched porn, but they don't hang around here researching it, and even the newbies here have to ask what a dap is, or whatever. For most people, they just want to get a movie, they don't want to have an educational experience just to learn what to avoid.

With mainstream movies, they can go to rottentomatoes.com and see a hundred reviews of one movie to get a balanced picture. And movie clips and trailers will be on the Today show and on commercials.

With porn, most of them are going by hype, or going by the boxcover (a situation capitalized on by companies which produce wretched porn with good boxcovers). Most people that I know have watched porn, but many have seen one or two wretched things and drawn the conclusion that porn is just not for them.
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Edited by - lindi on 10/2/2003 2:36:25 PM

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How can you or anyone determine how large this possibly untapped section of the general public might be ? Mentioning research makes me imagine you're thinking of some sort of poll or focus group or some such . Is that right ? People lie about sex ( every poll supports this ) , men exaggerate , women underplay and both sexes feel uncomfortable when porn is mentioned in everyday life . Okay these are generalizations but they're generally true . Bearing in mind what great big filthy - mines 12 inches - liars we mostly are when it comes to this topic how do we ever find out what most people really want or don't want from porn ?

Someone mentioned that money talks and I walk . Well I take offense at that , I really do . Sure I've bought some DVDs that contained mild chocking , gagging and DP but that doesn't mean I actively support those acts or want to see them in my porn . In most cases it wasn't 'till the disk hit the deck that I realized what was contained therein . And don't think I haven't tried jacking to that stuff , 'cause I have . It just won't work , Mr Floppy puts in an appearance . But that's fine because , and here's the crucial part , I can jack around it . Yep , it's that simple . Enjoy the parts you like . FFW the parts you don't .

Which all means that moneywise I'm a raincoater , but dickwise I'm a lightweight . Unfortunately according to some peoples' definition here that would have me counted as a 'coater and would possibly lead the industry to include more of the stuff I don't watch and less that I do .

Oh , and the whole Wicked movies aren't exactly selling like hotcakes thing ? The sales rankings at AdultDVDEmpire would tend to disagree with you there . ( even if some of them really do stink )

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Nice rebuttal. I had no problems with your post at all, because you did not try to project your personal preferences as being "indicative of normal wants, desires and behavior." I really think that's what ate me up about the original post. With that in mind...

It is virtually impossible to overcome an uneducated consumer, so at that point one makes a guess and produces a product. If the product "clicks" with some demographic, on some level, then the rate of return will be high enough to dictate that the manufacturer should use the formula again. Does this mean a direct and perfect fit? Nope. But they did something right, didn't they.

In this thread I read of consumers and cable. I contend that in that scenario, the customer is not the end consumer, but rather the cable provider. They are selecting and paying for the programming. When the cable company selects the title, the manufacturer has made the sale. So if cable companies select your titles, you are still doing something right.

I came on pretty strong with my first retort, simply because I have a problem with someone stating that because he thinks this stuff is too strong, it must be weird, or wrong, or unacceptable, or companies should really be ignoring it and producing what he considers to be acceptable. Sorry champ... you're just as weird as the rest of us! Just your weirdness doesn't float my boat. Capiche?

Lee, let me compliment you on a well thought out and competent rebuttal!

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First, ABC, I've always loved your avatars.

Second, lets look at why people have sex. There are a lot of reasons, but the biggest 2 are probably enjoyment and procreation. Obviously, porn isn't about procreation, unless you think you impregnate someone by splattering semen on their face. (Honey, we've been doing it wrong. no wonder we don't have kids), so I've always thought it should be about enjoyment.

I'd like to think that both people (or all 5, depending on your viewing tastes) could at least *potentially* be enjoying what's happening. And I'll be honest, there are some things in porn that I can't imagine that anyone could ever enjoy doing. Yes, people will do it for money, and they might not scream in agony. Yes, people that are trying to create a 'I'll do anything sexually because I'm the most sexual person in the world-so buy my movie!' will say that they're really into something that might make me cringe. And you may actually find someone that actually likes something that I just don't understand. I don't like brussel sprouts, and I don't see why anyone would eat them, but I can at least, in a shadowy recess of my brain, admit that someone, somewhere, may like them. I can't say the same thing for people that will fart semen out of their ass and drink it.

To be honest, while I understand that people like novelty, and it may not be my thing, the double-everything excrement consumption videos trouble me less than the ones that border on assult. The choking-vomiting-gagging bit. These are real people, not animatronics. Do we really need that much violence in adult cinema?

Anyway, there's a big market, I would guess, between Vivid and circus porn. It seems to be missed.

Regards,

Myk

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I hope not.

T.C.

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There are polls which indicate that many women have fantasies about forced oral. Now, I'm not the fact-maven that some of us are, and am WAY too lazy to look it up, but I know I've seen this statistic more than once.

Some people: Gagging on cock=brussel sprouts!
Other people: Gagging on cock=fuck me now!

I'm not advocating it; I'm just pointing out it's not just 'freaks' or 'hardcore raincoaters' who dig this stuff. Sometimes it's the women. You should be so lucky!

Find attractive talent with acting ability, a decent script, a non-annoying soundtrack, and ... I must be drunk again. Not yet, but I damn sure need to be.

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He's always raved about Jenna Jameson's movies at Wicked and the Vivid movies that have been sent to him prior to appearances by their contract girls. Did anyone at Metro actually imagine that he was going to like these movies?

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The first thing that seems obvious is that there is a real lack of effective market research in the porn industry. The great thing about Gonzo is that it allows porn producers to target specific market segments based on fetishes - anal, swallowing, cream pie, cum farting, etc. But, obviously, without really effective market research, it's kind of a hit and miss proposition with forums such as this being the only real means for the porn people to get good feedback. And, again, as Mutt made clear in his initial post, the most vocal people tend to be the Raincoaters, which means they are the ones being heard and responded to. And yes, I think this does systematically leave out a lot of voices.

On the other hand, I agree with RonK, money talks and Raincoaters spend a lot of it, so their voices should count for more. I think the well publicized success of No Cum Dodging Allowed from Red Light, as well as the great stuff that Evil Angel puts out from Jules Jordan and Joey Silvera, which everybody knows does really well, shows that the market for more extreme porn is alive and thriving.

But, it seems entirely reasonable to think that there is a market out there for something more in the middle. In fact, what comes to mind immediately are the new lines from New Sensations/Digital Sin - Erotica XXX 1-3 and Anal Trainer 1-4 and also the Peter North lines - North Pole and Anal Addicts. I think these fall pretty much in the middle ground category and I would be interested to know how well they are doing compared to some of the more extreme stuff.

Just my thoughts anyway, for what they're worth.

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If someone wants to do a detailed study and wants to pay me big bucks (more than the budget of a porn title), feel free to hire me and pay my fees. Otherwise, we will have to do with guesses, various forums, hearsay, and sales figures. The best and most objective evidence at present is the sale figures as the other evidence are mostly subjective.

Ron

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Disturbing though that you report that the cheap compilations do so well. i guess for the average porn consumer price does matter.

Does AVN track adult movie sales nationwide? If so what methodology do they use?

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By "lucky", I was just imagining a little deepthroat action. No puke. No violence. Sheesh. I forgot what context I was tossing that into, so the mistake was in my choice of language. 'scuse me.

If I find that silly thing, I'll post a link. It may have been in a Cosmo (at the barber shop, yeah, the barber shop, that's it...).

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For some, gagging on cock = all that is vile and wrong
For others, gagging on cock = hot stuff

Ugh. Two hours of sleep, if that, from a miserable sinus infection. I feel all fuzzy around the edges today.

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Ok, no problem.

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T.C.

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