My opinion is that Steve disrespected Aubrey. Its not wrong to not wanting to work with others. Its very disrespectful to misgender someone. To say Aubrey is a guy walking around pretending to be a girl is to a trans what calling a black person the n word is. Then Steve doubled down and said she/he when referring to Aubrey. So its not like he recognized he made a mistake the first time then apologized or stopped. He kept up with misgendering and blatantly disrespecting Aubrey. How would Steve feel if someone not only refused to work with him but told him the reason was because they didnt want to work with a 200yr old man? Then went on saying how they think dont think dinosaurs should still be in porn etc... That would totally be disrespectful to him. So there is a way to be professional and respectful without doing something you dont want to do. If Steve was upset with the fact he didnt know Aubrey was trans he should be mad at the crew and even be mad at himself. He need to do his homework. Plenty of performers do so when they have an upcoming scene with their scene partners that they arent familiar with. Aubrey didnt trick anyone, she doesnt need "Im a trans" tattoo on her body, but most importantly she shouldnt be mistreated. The industry need to be cleaned up from abuser, racists, and phobics. That includes transphobic, and homophobics. If it means to get rid of a long time and very popular male performer then so be it. We wonder why so many performers are now leaving mainstream. Thats because of stuff like this. Just makes me sick and Steve definitely deserves to get blasted for this because I cant even imagine how Aubrey must be feeling. The only positive is that alot of supporters, including myself, is coming out having her back. She know she isnt alone.
Here is the reality. If you have no issue with the following statement:But have a problem with this statement:Then you are a transphobe, plain and simple. The only difference between the two is the gender identity. If one gender identity must do something, but others don't and it is ludicris to believe they should, then you are discriminating against the gender you feel should have to do the action.
Conflating a personal romantic encounter with a planned performance for a business doesn't make any sense, but even in this bizarre hypothetical I wouldn't be angry or accuse her of being "deceptive" while using bigoted language directed at her (which Steve objectively did).
Secondly, that doesn't even apply in this context because this was something that didn't roll out in the span of just a few minutes or one meeting. This occurred over the span of at least a few days (if not weeks). They conversed, he requested her for a scene, the producers scheduled, and then he later learned that she was trans right before the filming started. While the producers obviously botched the situation by not openly communicating with everyone involved as to all the particulars, that 100% does not give him the leeway to hurl transphobic abuse at her. Given that we can plainly see what he said after the fact, there is quite simply nothing exculpatory to defend his behavior.
Misunderstanding is one thing, hurling transphobic comments at someone is an entirely different matter. I've yet to see anyone say that Steve was under an obligation to do the shoot if he's uncomfortable filming with trans talent (nor should he be expected to). But once you start spewing bigoted comments at someone as a defense, I lose any & all sympathy for "Well it was a private conversation and should have stayed that way".
I join this forum and look at what is in the news today!
I have always enjoyed Steve on camera. His youtube interview channel has been great.
I also think Aubrey Kate is one of the gold standards for performers.
I can buy that Steve is so disconnected from porn outside of his paid work that he doesn't know Aubrey. I however am questioning his vetting process if he doesn't even google people he has never worked with before. If you google her name there are enough search results to know she is a trans performer even if it's not in her twitter.
I can also buy that Steve shows up and leaves when he sees she is trans.
What I can not accept is him just vanishing without any professional or respectful conversation with the director or even speaking with Aubrey face to face. It was highly unprofessional to do that.
And then, well, the horrifying comments in the DMS, etc (dude, he, etc). That is the kind of thing that is hate/phobic and speaks to how he feels about his own sexuality. He most certainly should take a break from shooting, reflect, and make an apology personally to Aubrey and do something on youtube.
I don't think he should be banned for life or anything; however, a break and reflection is in order.
Most of all he needs to look deep within and face why he reacted this way and said those things. This is beyond just "I don't want to have sex with trans performers", which is his full right to be with who he wants to be with. There are much deeper issues that lead to someone making seriously offensive comments and it's not just "I was angry in the moment". One can say "fuck you" if that is the case, and not outright nasty personal comments.
^Apparently he wasn't allowed to talk to aubrey by the producers. I don't defend what he said and how he said it, but some are making it worse than what it was. They were insults but some act like Holmes said TS's should be put to death(and there are places in the world that do) or I'm seeing claims that it was the equivelant of calling a black person the n-word which is ridiculous.
^^Except the n-word is the worst thing you can say to a black person and what Steve said about trans people is clearly not the worst thing he could have said about them, not even close.
There are certain things said that are unforgivable. Nothing Steve said was that degree of severity in fact twitter hasn't even removed it. So to claim that should cause him to get blackballed from the industry and lose his job and livelihood is ridiculous.
But Steve brought this to himself for how he dealt with situation and the things he said about her.
Porn Twitter and some of the users on here have already "cancelled" him but that won't financially hurt him if companies continue to book him and scenes that feature him are doing good number. What really will affect Steve is if companies will stop booking him so we'll see if certain directors are willing to continue hiring him in aftermath of this controversy and if the female talents that criticised Holmes will stick by their word by refusing to work with him.
MOD: Since this has now become an issue, because of course it had to, if you opt to misgender a transgendered individual in this discussion, you will be kicked out of the thread and/or forums.
I think most trans women would consider being called a dude on the same level of hatred as the N-bomb.
Seems like digging his heels in is the worst approach.
he needs to suck it up, own his behavior, apologize, and learn from this. I don't think that is a big ask. Nit picking over semantics on whether he should have got attacked or not seems counter productive.
Either way, its two very good performers in a bad set of events and I hope they can work it out and heal the wounds. Steve needs to own this.
So the events that supposedly happened was this. Holmes arrives on set, notices Aubrey and realises she's transgender, then walks off set and out the building without questioning the situation with the director or anyone who works behind the camera. And then later complains on Twitter about it.
I'm not a fan of his, but somebody who has been in this industry professionally for 20 years wouldn't act like this. He must've spoke to the director, a disagreement occurred, then stormed off.
He did. Dana Vespoli and Aiden Starr other producer/director told him specifically not to speak to Aubrey because they were afraid that Aubrey's feelings would be hurt. He left the location. The shoot was booked as Boy Girl Girl Anal BGGA.
Actually it is relevant. It was being used against him. The narrative was that Steve even went out of his way to contact Aubrey out of the blue, and that was supposedly another reason "he should have done his research".
Now we know that it was Aubrey who started the dialogue and never mentioned being ts from the start, it would appear aubrey assumed from the beginning that Steve should have simply known aubrey's ts background.
I think both made assumptions and maybe we expect everyone should do their research on people they plan to work with but to me this is clear that many actors do not
I read posts from people wondering if Steve was like new in the biz or? as he did not know who she was but I mean...if they do not know who he is how can they then assume he should know who she is?
As often is twitter only black and white, never grey as the reality
^^, ^ Since clearly you think Aubrey is at fault for not identifying herself, why does that make it okay for Steve to use gender slurs? And is it also okay if an actress doesn't tell someone they are black for them to use racial slurs? If not, please clarify why.
^ I know that. And the whole victim blaming going in this thread is no different than people sitting around saying, "If she didn't want to be raped she shouldn't have gone out in that."
^^^Nobody said that was ok, that's you putting words into people's mouths. All I'm saying is both sides have blame in this.
The lesson Aubrey learned here is to never approach another hetero male performer for a scene without identifying as TS first, and for Steve to never publically attack others back in a non-PC manner. A lot of twitter beef can be avoided that way.
I'm not surprised(Aside from some of his comments). Years ago Steve once said that he shoots with so many girls regularly that he doesn't even know most of their names. He doesn't seem to be in the loop when it comes to lesser known performers in his area of the industry let alone the ts/gay. This never seemed to be a problem in all of those decades. And really I've never heard of any unprofessional issues involving him at any point.
If it isn't okay, then it doesn't matter what you think Aubrey should or should not have done. Yet you keep going back to "All I'm saying is both sides have blame in this." Unless you are saying anything she did gave him the right to be a transphobe, then none of it matters.
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bridge6296 Deactivated User
1041 Posts 8/13
Posted - May 23 2021 : 7:18PM
I for one admire 2bollocks for his contrarian view points. There's far too much of this victim/aggressor stuff. Like it's both sides that are responsible. Sure the Nazis were bad but didn't the Jews kind of have it coming? Same with slavery, a total bummer but was it really that bad? 2bollocks knows what I'm talking about. Keep holding on to those unpopular opinions my dude.
Having defended Steve Holmes in the First DP thread because people said that he should retire because of his age/looks, I am incredibly disappointed to find out that he made transphobic comments to Aubrey Kate. I don't think he should be directly blacklisted, however, directors, producers and performers should by all means not hire him or work with him if they feel unable to anymore. I will continue to watch his scenes (old and new), but only out of respect for his co-performers and directors. My only hope is that he will learn from this, but the signs are not looking good. I will not be disappointed if he does decide to retire.
I hope Aubrey get all the support she needs after this incident.
@2bollocks: The fact that society does not equate misgendering trans people with racial slurs is a damning reflection on society, and not a true indication of how severe both are. Just like Steve, you are digging yourself a hole here. Trans people have committed or attempted suicide over reading/hearing such comments.
^^Again, what Steve said was not the worst thing he could have said(I've seen people calling ts 'total freaks' and f-words, wishing death upon them etc.) and it's not the same as the worst racial slurs towards certain ethnicities. It's been blown out of proportion like many things in today's age. Twitter hasn't removed the comments and it looks like Steve's been getting booked since this incident. Those are the facts.
It's up to yourself to only zero-in on the comments Steve made and ignore everything else in this situation that provides context. Fortunately life is almost never that black and white.
Are you transgendered? If not, you don't get to decide what is the worst thing. Look at the transgendered community's reaction to his statements. Maybe you could learn something instead of sticking your head in the sand.None of this means that what he said isn't horrible, now does it? Performers/directors/etc get hired in the industry time and time again after doing horrible things. Twitter is notorious for ignoring slurs against the transgendered community. Your facts don't back up your thesis statement.You keep trying to blame Audrey, yet you haven't, despite being asked to several times, state what actions she has taken that would warrant her being called a gender slur, where doing so would be okay.
Why don't you actually use this as a learning experience and become a better person instead of obstanantly being the worst kind of person.
People say things when they're put on the spot. People often react negatively when people are confrontational, no matter how nice a person they generally are. I'm not trying to excuse the things that Steve said. I do think people are perhaps taking it a bit too far. Steve was out of line, there's no arguing that. But people are making him out to be the worst person alive. If Steve did not legitimately know about Aubrey, then it's possible he actually felt like she was misrepresenting herself. That plus her being confrontational makes his responses more understandable.
I want to note for the record that I don't condone Steve's reaction.
What really boggles me here is that no one is putting any heat towards Dana or Aiden in this scenario. IMO not letting Steve explain himself, and possibly apologize, to Aubrey in person was a mistake. Conversations over text often fail to convey proper meaning. Plus it gave Aubrey time to stew and get angry before she messaged Steve again, which has only served to escalate the situation. Not only that, but I also feel they had an obligation here to make sure that a straight performer understood they were being booked with a TS performer. That's really the biggest mistake on their parts, imo.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 25 2021 : 5:19PM
I find the entire situation bizarre. Imo, Aubrey was under no obligation, morally/ethically or professionally, to divulge her trans-status. I don't think Dana or Aiden were necessarily obligated to say anything either, but it's very strange to me that neither of these industry vets were surprised enough about the booking to speak to Steve about it beforehand. I've never even met Steve, yet I'd be shocked if he were to shoot with anyone who isn't a cisgendered woman. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he slept with trans-women offscreen, but, as we know, work is different. So it's weird to me that after receiving the booking neither Dana or Aiden thought to say anything to Steve about the literally extraordinary nature of the shoot.
I assume that Steve wasn't allowed to speak to Aubrey because it was feared that he would say something bigoted, as he later did. If I'm correct about that being the motivation, I'm left wondering if Dana and Aiden didn't know until that day that Steve was a transphobe. If either of them did know him to be a transphobe prior to that day, then it would be even more strange that neither of the two bothered to touch base with him before the shoot to express surprise. Were they worried that Steve agreed to the shoot on a fluke, and would flake if they said anything?
While I don't understand how the whole thing wasn't avoided, I've got nothing but love for Aubrey and the other trans-performers who still have to deal with bigoted bullshit.
^I disagree that no one was obligated to disclose Aubrey's gender status. Producers and directors are obligated to find out a performer's limits and discuss them before shooting. They both know Steve is a straight performer and doesn't have TS on his agency card.
As for the rest, Aubrey got kind of shitty with Steve afterwards. It's possible any negativity from him is just reactionary. He still did things that are not cool, but I'm not sure he should be labeled as a transphobe because of one confrontation. Let's also bear in mind that Steve came up during a time in the industry where there was a heavy stigma on TS performers for being at risk. I remember when a lot of girls put Christian on their no list because he worked with TS performers, and it wasn't that long ago.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 25 2021 : 8:21PM
^I wrote that Dana and Aiden weren't necessarily obligated to ask Steve about Aubrey being trans. It would have been a good idea, but were they obligated? I'm not so sure.
That Steve is a "straight" performer means nothing. So is Sean Michaels. That Steve doesn't have TS on his card also means nothing. Abella Danger shot multiple IR scenes without having IR on her card at the time. The IR analogy is an apt one. Would Dana and Aiden have been obligated to tell someone that their costar, who they communicated with and already explicitly agreed to shoot with by name, is black? I don't think that falls under discussing a performer's limits.
Nonetheless, whether they were obligated to or not, I do see it as very strange that Dana and Aiden said nothing to Steve beforehand.
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 26 2021 : 2:28AM
If Steve had his heart set on insulting Aubrey, he could have done so without being transphobic. Likewise, targeting a transperson with specifically transphobic insults means you're on the transphobic spectrum. Maybe Steve isn't a militant transphobe, and perhaps he is friendly with transpeople under ordinary circumstances, but if he begins speaking like a bigot as soon as he gets pissed off at a transperson, then he pretty clearly has a problem called transphobia.That his bigotry has a history doesn't make him any less bigoted.
He's a legend and respect to him for his work as he has some really epic scenes from back in the day.
Having said that, [mod edit: comment removed. Insulting someone's body doesn't suddenly become ok just because they've said transphobic things. See the ADT forum etiquette. Adult DVD Talk is a Community of Porn Fans and Industry Insiders Please do not talk about pornstars, directors or producers as if they are not here. (Katsumi sums it up nicely.) We are lucky to have industry participants, and they are paying attention to your constructive criticism. Insults will get you nowhere and lead to the deactivation of your forum account. If you work in the industry please be honest about your porn connections. See our Member Directory for a list of stars, directors, producers and other insiders who participate.]
Well there's an apparent gender and a true one , if the gender you identify with isn't the one apparent you should inform your partner, for example if I hit on a lesbian girl trying to score should she tell she's not what I think she is? I mean a woman of course but not a woman available for men , If I enter a gay bar and a guy tries his chance on me should I tell hi I'm not gay? My apparent gender matches his own , I'm in the right place but I'm not the guy he thought I was.
That's the point , either I assume the whole world knows I identify as a straight male or I make it known to the person who might get it wrong.
Explanation or hints should be given whenever there's a chance any of the parts could misinterpreter an identification assuming he/she doesn't know
I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13
Posted - May 26 2021 : 10:49AM
^^Sexual orientation is a different matter. Do "gay for pay" performers who don't have sex with men offscreen always inform their costars before shooting that they don't identify as gay/bi? Probably not.
^ But don't male performers (and even men in general) who have sex with other men have a responsibility to ensure female performers (women) are aware of this? And the women have the right to chose to not work with them; without having to justify why.
Similarly, I think if a female performer is trans, the same responsibility applies. And the male performer has the same choice.
^ Well we can only ban things if we see them. I only just came across the post right now, and I edited it and gave a warning.
Usually bans come from repeated refusals to adhere to the rules. It's rare that a single incident would result in a ban. Not impossible, but rare.
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hawki Deactivated User
141 Posts 12/16
Posted - May 27 2021 : 12:08AM
NO. A BIG NO. And You know why? answer is so simple....because if the person is cis almost everyone of the planet can correctly guess the gender of that person at least 99.99% of the time. so announcing your gender doesnt make any sense...but if you are a trans, how much percentage would you say it would be that a person would be able to guess their gender correctly. If they dont inform people about their gender then we dont have some psychic power to figure it out. maybe in the future the evolution will catch up and we will have sixth sense to figure it out but not yet.
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hawki Deactivated User
141 Posts 12/16
Posted - May 27 2021 : 12:30AM
One more thing I have realized..it doesnt matter if you think that trans people deserve equal right and equal EVERYTHING, if you dont agree with everything thing they say, if you dont blindly support them even if you feel they are wrong, you will be called a transphobe. This is what this world has become.
"The defense argued that many men use deception to initiate sexual relations with women, from lying about their job to concealing the fact they are married."
Steve Holmes @ Adult Empire
Posted - May 22 2021 : 8:35AM
