OK, here is some actual information: Cross sales are never initiated by the billing provider, the website owner decides who to do a cross sale for, as the website owner has to sign up as an affiliate to get his cut. Preticked cross sales like this are completely and utterly illegal in the European Union since 13 June 2014. Jacco Edited by - jacco on 5/28/2015 5:54:07 AM
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - May 28 2015 : 6:17AM
You're missing the point. (and you're wrong to boot) While you might be right from a transactional standpoint, you have no way of knowing who initiated the deal to begin with. When Team Skeet was setting up their merchant agreement with Epoch, Team Skeet may have requested the cross sale, or Epoch may have offered Team Skeet the opportunity to do it. Yes, Team Skeet eventually had to agree to it at some point but that doesn't mean they sought it out. Nobody here (me, you the OP, or the DPD guy) knows the inner workings of the Team Skeet merchant agreement and how it came to be. It's all speculation. But as much as some people here want to paint it as if Team Skeet came to Epoch and demanded that they set up a cross sale, it's just as likely that Team Skeet had no intention of doing it at all until Epoch approached Team Skeet during the process and said "Hey, you know we can set up a cross sale for you, and you can make $x.xx more per transaction on average, if you'd like." Point being it is NOT as black and white as some people her keep insisting making it.And they are legal in the US, so if you reside (and bank) in the US, then it is something you should be on the lookout for, regardless of how morally reprehensible you think it is. (unless you have an affinity for starting whiny-ass threads about how some big bad company ripped you off)
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klies Deactivated User
1733 Posts 5/09
Posted - May 28 2015 : 8:58AM
murdock, you are really something. Sorry if i overlooked but not once i saw you criticizing the teamskeet for their unethical practices. you are more interested in attacking OP and telling him that he should have been more careful and blah blah. As i said, yes OP should have been more vigilant but that doesnt mean what these websites are doing isnt wrong. This is my last post anyway and i dont want to argue with someone like you.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - May 28 2015 : 4:37PM
I've mentioned several times that cross sales like that aren't a good practice, and the moment someone from Team Skeet starts posting in this thread, I'll be sure to tell them so. But last I checked, no one from Team Skeet is here, so what exactly do you want me to do? Cry on AKperv's shoulder with everyone else so that he can feel vindicated? (and then turn around and do the same damn thing again) And yes, the OP ABSOLUTELY should have been more careful. I'm unwavering in my stance that as a consumer buying porn on the internet, he and everyone else should practice a modicum of safety when giving their credit card information out. The fact that he's the only one here that is unwilling to admit that, in concert with THIS IS THE SECOND TIME HE'S BEEN BURNED BY THE EXACT SAME SCAM is why I feel justified in questioning the OP's intelligence. Someone earlier said this was a case of "fool me once shame on you..." but I'm starting to think that "A fool and his money..." might be the more appropriate saying.
Murdock, do you work in the porn industry? Two people who do work in the industry (Jimmy and me) told you how it works. And yes, if the customer is in the EU it is also illegal for a US site to do this. Jacco
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - May 28 2015 : 9:25PM
No I don't work in the porn industry. But I have worked with credit card processors that do recurring billing so I'm not exactly ignorant on the subject. Based on your logic, I can assume that every guy that's ever gone into a car dealership and ended up getting the "undercoating" walked into that dealereship with the express purpose of buying a a car with some by-god undercoating on and that there is no chance that the customer just wanted a car, and the salesmen (whose job it is to sell things to the customers) actually put the idea in his head, and then convinced him it was the best thing to do. I'm claiming that it is a possibility that Epoch put the idea in Team Skeet's head and then sold them on it. (ya know... since that's their damn job and all) If you're saying that's impossible (or even implausible) I'd love to here something to actually back that up beyond "I'm in the industry so nu'uh!" and if you're aren't suggesting that sales people selling customers things is impossible (or implausible) then it would appear you agree with me and I'm not sure what your point is. I mean if you're saying that the credit card processors in the porn industry are just a bunch of sweethearts, and all of the pushy slimeballs I've dealt with through other industries are just an anomaly, then I guess you would know that better than me, but based on my experience I find that hard to believe.And if AKperv is in the EU then he should absolutely take them to court and do something that will not only benifit him, but every other person that initiates similar transactions. (but I'm guessing he isn't and I'm almost certain he won't) But here in the US where the despicable practice is still legal, it is the responsibility of the purchaser to actually read what it is they are purchasing and uncheck and boxes for unwanted goods/services regardless of how morally opposed to it they may be. And regardless of who you want to blame (Team Skeet or Epoch) that is a fact. Edited by - murdock on 5/28/2015 9:29:48 PM
Jacco, thanks for pointing out that this dishonest trickery is illegal in Europe. I thought that was the case but didn't want to bring it up because I wasn't certain. Thanks for confirming.
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urthoughts Deactivated User
it takes a real wolf to expose true sheep 2600 Posts 7/12
Posted - Nov 15 2015 : 1:11PM
A lot of sites do this. They have 3 or 4 boxes checked for other sites. You have to manually go through and uncheck them. They give you a deal to justify the slight of hand. For an extra five bucks you can join so and so site
As someone who's just a big fan and consumer of paying for nearly over a 100 different types of adult sites online throughout the many years online, those cross-sales and related types of upsell's are always going to be there - it's a business first and foremost and as others said, it's just not the adult industry that has this feature as a frequent staple (e.g. big e-commerce sites like amazon, newletter signups all checked by default, etc). I'm sure however, many companies profit quite well on those forgotten recurring subscription cancellations and boxes left checked. Over the years, I've made my fair share of mistakes and oversights in not seeing a checkbox upon payment (usually the biggest culprit is when a page is refreshed or your credit card payment wasn't entered correctly and then you those boxes are "rechecked"). Key there is to just click on everything slowly and look at all the fine print :) Some sites are subjectively more annoying with how they demonstrate their upsell/upgrade pages... or you're brought to a spalsh page of sorts upon signing in (these can on some sites, be unchecked upon the next return). One thing some sites could do a better job of is maybe to separate their upgrade/upsell options from within your visibly paid content (i.e. active page) to where you actually see your paid-for content (e,g, not every other video clip visible on the page where it says, pay to access this video or subscribe to this channel series). The worst in the latter example is you won't know until you click on it to find such a prompt whereas others will have the video greyed out or something of sorts to say, upgrade... popups being a bit discouraging there too. I won't call any one site out because the vast majority do that, and I can understand that from their sales and marketing perspective. After a while you do get use to it and know how to ignore those parts if you're a frequent purchaser or such content online... I think some of the less than stellar sales practices are the ones where you're forced to keep subscribing each month to "unlock" further premium content or subscriptions. No, not every company is perfect and in those cases, I won't be resubscribing to some of the aforementioned practice scenarios. If one did make a mistake in missing those upsell check boxes, it's not too difficult of a process but you can contact the biller (best done right after the error was noted/site purchased for) via chat or email sometimes and explain the situation and get the refund (takes up to a week or two at most to get it back). Chat was the best if you had the option. They will usually honor the mistake if genuinely made and you weren't already using the site for days and beyond.
A lot of sites in the USA do it because it is legal. In Europe they do not do it because it is illegal. None should do it because it is WRONG. Basically, it is simply theft.
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urthoughts Deactivated User
it takes a real wolf to expose true sheep 2600 Posts 7/12
Posted - Nov 15 2015 : 2:59PM
If i dont read what i purchased before i make the purchase i dont know if thats theft. They can argue i had the opportunity to decline the "extras"... I do think its wrong but to me thats the same as sites saying your membership will be automatically renewed until you cancel it. Why not give me an option up front to just pay for one month
It is not "simply theft". You digitally consented to being billed regardless of the fact that it was pre-selected as you made a conscious effort to click the button to complete the transaction. Basically, you were simply not vigilant or attentive enough. As I said before, I don't agree at all with these sites pre-selecting an option to sign up to additional websites. With that said, I still think you are unwilling to accept personal responsibility for the oversight. That pre-selected option wasn't hidden within a 1,000 page thesis of terms and conditions, where I'd lend a more sympathetic ear - as another member pointed out, it was in plain sight where you put in your card details.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Nov 15 2015 : 10:31PM
It's also about personal responsibility. Try being an accountable human being instead of blaming all of your problems on other people. You were presented with exactly what you were purchasing. Just because you declined the opportunity to read it doesn't give you the right to point your finger at everyone else. It is your responsibility to verify what you're purchasing, before you purchase it.
Very entertaining read - I love a good argument, thanks guys. On a serious note, reading this makes me happy I now have more porn than I can ever watch and that, in all likelihood, I'll never join another porn site again. I only ever joined maybe half a dozen sites and thankfully never got burned with these kinds of practices. I'd make a point of only ever joining one site at a time, writing down the rebilling date and searing it into my memory. Rebilling I just find baffling, anyway - does anyone intentionally keep a membership going for longer than a month (which is more than enough time to simply download the hell out of the site)?
So what happens if the check box is for a $400 washing machine decorated with explicit images of naked girls and the porn site logo written all over it. You agreed to the terms, so you bought it? That would make for a few interesting scenarios.
You're under the mistaken impression that I am only allowed to look at one issue here. At the risk of repeating myself, I don't advocate the pre-selection of upsell options as I consider it to be a predatory and exploitative tactic. That it is wrong doesn't mean you shouldn't guard yourself against such practices as best as you can. I never said you had to be a sophisticated online buyer. I said that you need to be vigilant to reduce the risk of being hoodwinked and take responsibility for your actions to learn from previous mistakes. Regardless of the fact that you started this topic to expose these dodgy practices, the fact that this has happened twice shows you are neither vigilant nor responsible, both of which play into the hands of the parties involved, so I question whether you're ever going to learn from this and show a morsel of credibility.
Oh, Jiggly! You're just not paying attention. The purpose of this thread is to expose shady business practices. If you want to attack me personally you should start a new thread for that.
I'm paying attention just fine as I have acknowledged the shady practices and openly stated that I do not support them - you yourself said you were glad I did. Part of the fight against such practices is making every realistic effort on your part to protect yourself against them. I am not attacking you as AKperv, I am calling you out as an example of someone who takes no personal responsibility for their own actions. I would take the same stance against anybody else in the same position. If klies is implying what I think, that's insulting to such victims to suggest this situation is even remotely comparable.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Nov 16 2015 : 7:18PM
AKperv is trying the classic appeal to emotion. His whole argument hinges on the idea that he is the victim so if you question his victimhood, you're undermining his argument. Like JigglyBoobs, I also condemn the practice of predatory credit card transactions, but despite having purchased numerous memberships over the years from companies that attempt to add extras onto the purchase, I've never ended up purchasing anything I didn't intend to. It isn't because i'm a particularly savvy customer, it is simply because I acknowledged that I am legally responsible for purchases that I make with my credit cards. I entered into a legally binding agreement with the credit card company and I actually bothered to read that agreement in order to understand what it was I was agreeing to, just like I always look at my final purchase before I submit it, to make sure I know what it is I'm agreeing to. Blindly clicking on "accept" is a great way to give away everything you own. And no, it doesn't matter if we're talking a $1.99 "add-on" membership of a $400 washing machine, you should verify whatever it is you're purchasing before you submit your transaction for final approval. I've yet to encounter an online retailer that doesn't show a final total before accepting the purchase request.
Actually, I am the one using logic and basic ethics. It seems to me that you and Jiggly are the emotional ones, getting all excited over the fact that I am not a perfect internet shopper. I think you and Jiggly just see this as an opportunity to talk about someone else's failings, because it makes you feel better about yourselves. Here's the substance: 1. If someone sets up a system to trick people out of their money, they are not behaving ethically. 2. Teamskeet has set up such a system. 3. Therefore, Teamskeet is not ethical. This is useful information for Forum members. The fact that I am not a perfect Internet shopper is not at all useful. While it is true that alerting readers as to how to avoid getting trapped by these cheating mechanisms is valuable and useful, vitriolic attacks add nothing. But hey, if it makes you feel better go for it.
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Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User
1102 Posts 2/15
Posted - Nov 16 2015 : 9:54PM
Dear AKperv We can agree that "auto checkmarking" a box is not "moral" or "ethical. If you are looking for morality and ethics from the online porn industry I don't know where you have been the last 10 years. We all know it happens and can be present anytime we sign up for a website, install a piece of software (toolbar installations are common), or buy something. Firefox, Yahoo, McAfee, and all sorts of programs have installations of other programs or toolbars automatically checked at various stages of their recent history. Almost every online retailer has auto check boxes for their email subscriptions. This is why we all should LOOK. As such, it is NO SURPRISE it is there. And here, in 2015, you should know to read the ENTIRE payment page before clicking the final button to enact the transaction. so the diligence is on you to prevent this from happening to you. Again, online porn is not ever going to be moral and ethical. It is porn after all and their main goal is to empty your wallet (just like gambling and hookers and strippers, and anything related to a vice). We all know a lot of things are bad for us; so we use our own judgement and act accordingly. Nobody is going to have sympathy for you when the additional charge is plain as day right there on the payment page and all you had to do was read it. Things like this can pass 10 years ago when people were still new to it. This kind of thing IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE in 2015. You have nobody to blame but yourself for clicking a payment button without reading it all. The only time you would get a reasonable case here is if they did not disclose it on the payment page. Which would then mean you could easily file a chargeback. It's like the guy who complains he sent 500 via western union to Nigeria. These scams have been around and everyone knows about them; you won't get sympathy for falling for it in 2015. You can complain on and on about how unethical these people are, however the onus is on you to be smart enough not to send them money. As for Teamskeet... they are selling you porn for fuck's sakes..... looking for high moral ground from them is really misguided. Thank you. Edited by - Canadian_Cindy on 11/16/2015 10:04:31 PM
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Nov 17 2015 : 12:22AM
I wonder if AKperv locks his doors when he leaves his home, or if he locks his car when he leaves it in a parking lot. I'm assuming not. The only reason to do that would be to prevent people from taking things of his that he finds to be valuable, but it's a totally unnecessary step because people stealing from him is immoral and unethical and in pretty much every country of the world, illegal, and since that's the case he has no responsibility to protect his assets. I wonder if he has his vehicle or home insured? I wonder if he knows that most insurance polices don't cover theft if the residence or vehicle aren't locked? (I'm guessing not since his track record for reading boring legal documents isn't so great) I wonder if he realizes their is a direct parallel between protecting your assets by locking your doors and protecting your assets by reading the screen and the Terms of Service on the porn site before you click on "Complete This Transaction" I wonder if he leaves his door wide open one day and his home is robbed if he'll think "man, I should make sure the door is locked next time" or if he'll just go on an internet crusade to make theft even more illegeler.
No that doesn't settle it. I'm far from all knowing - have I passed comment about what you like in porn, your favourite TV show, bubblegum flavour or political affiliation? No. Two instances of you being duped by this predatory transaction show you have demonstrated carelessness and a lack of responsibility with your own finances. I'm not saying it to feel better about myself. I've been burned by card fraud where I suspect my card was skimmed by an cash machine at a gas station. I made the mistake of trusting every cash machine and have learned from it by being much more selective about those I use. I said sweet Fanny Adams about having to be a perfect internet shopper - you have a very creative way of twisting what others say or very poor comprehension skills, possibly both. What I said was that there is plenty more you can do to protect yourself from scams or predatory tactics such as checking everything on the page, which you hadn't done twice. If you think the criticism you have received and the lack of offers for a shoulder to cry on are a vitriolic attack, you have remarkably thin skin. In addition to murdock's example with insurance policies, Amazon frequently presents the option of signing up to an Amazon Prime subscription as the default. I'm not a 'perfect internet shopper' as you put it but I take the time to make sure I've agreed to everything on the page before proceeding, which always involves selecting a different option so I'm not charged for a Prime sub.
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Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User
1102 Posts 2/15
Posted - Nov 17 2015 : 3:18AM
And my final say... You lost 30 bucks on the internet..... we all have at some point.... get over it :)
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urthoughts Deactivated User
it takes a real wolf to expose true sheep 2600 Posts 7/12
^ Pardon me for being obtuse but what is your point exactly? Harri Patel complained about this thread being bumped because he didn't like what he saw and urthoughts apparently agreed, ironically bumping the thread again. I had no such complaint so that I bumped it up is irrelevant.
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
"You have sacrificed nothing and no one." 3689 Posts 8/10
Posted - Nov 19 2015 : 5:50PM
Pre-checked boxes on web commerce sites are now standard operating procedure. Everybody does it, not just porn sites, including reputable companies everyone has heard of. You just have to look over every transaction you make nowadays. I even make screencaps of transactions with porn sites -- showing that I unchecked the pre-checked boxes -- when I make a purchase. A good read: Answers to common security questions - Best Practices
I usually do. But I only tend to sub to sites through Idealgasm coupons where you usually get lifetime at $9.95 per month as long as you keep it. I would never pay the $39.95 regular price, but to me something like Evil Angel for $10 a month seems like a pretty solid deal for the amount of new content they release each month.
I can't believe either that anyone anyone is thinking that this is OK... when you sign up to buy a product, it is reasonable to expect that you're buying that product and no other. You shouldn't have to make sure that you're not actually buying something that the seller slipped in on a side bar. That's part of the implied agreement, in my opinion. You wouldn't accept this at the grocery store, saying, "well, you should have checked if an employee slipped another item into your basket..." Some even suggested blaming the billing company instead of the company that contracted them. I can only say to vote with your dollars... that's the only thing that they might understand. There's no way in hell that I would do business with a company that did that. Why on earth a company would do that to the few of us that actually pay for their product is beyond me.
"You have sacrificed nothing and no one." 3689 Posts 8/10
Posted - Nov 20 2015 : 1:53PM
Bump (you were all "asking for it") Edited by - Goldstein on 11/20/2015 1:53:54 PM
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Canadian_Cindy Deactivated User
1102 Posts 2/15
Posted - Nov 20 2015 : 2:04PM
Nobody says "it is ok to auto check additional charges".... We say, that it is a reality in online shopping, and a reality that will not go away anytime soon. Like I said before, if you are expecting online porn of all things to be "ethical and moral" you will never find peace. So, we deal with it as consumers. Look for checkboxes on installation pages (for programs) and payment pages (for website subscriptions) and anything that may cost us money. It takes a few seconds to look, find it, and uncheck it. We solve the problem on our own instead of driving ourselves mad demanding the online porn industry stop doing it (they won't). Online porn is designed to take your money; they will try many sneaky tactics to get it. So, be aware like most people are these days and you won't get scammed. Maybe once a year you blow it and get taken for 30 bucks, live moves on and you learn from it. And why on earth do they do it? Because IT MAKES THEM MONEY. Plenty of people still don't look and just auto accept, and most of them don't file a chargeback or even try. THey just accept they messed up and moved on.
I don't recall anyone saying it is acceptable. You seem to mistake saying it's a common practice for open approval. Bad weather is common but not popular. Most of those who criticized the OP for a lack of due care openly said they don't agree with the pre-selection of upsold subscriptions. Your argument of the grocery store isn't exactly a strong one. I always check what I put on the conveyor belt or hand to the cashier, not because of suspecting an employee of the store or a troll customer slipping something into my basket but for making sure I didn't pick up anything by mistake. If there is anything in the basket I don't remember putting in it, I just put it to the side or tell the cashier I don't want it. If you can't/won't do a few basic checks of what you're about to purchase, you shouldn't have any responsibility with money.
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urthoughts Deactivated User
it takes a real wolf to expose true sheep 2600 Posts 7/12
Posted - Nov 21 2015 : 2:55AM
Maybe people dont fight things done on a porn site cause they would have to admit they bought a membership to a porn site
^ I don't think there's any "maybe" about it. I suspect webmasters who pre-select upsell options count on shame and/or embarrassment to discourage some people from complaining if they failed to deselect them and are thus charged extra, which is one of the reasons I don't agree with that practice.
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Nov 21 2015 : 6:15AM
You make a good comparison (the paragraph in bold). It actually reminded me of this funny iPhone commercial that Apple has been running recently: Bill Hader in iPhone 6s "Prince Oseph" commercial.
I don't think there's any stigma in buying porn these days - I don't think there's ever been less stigma about buying porn. Who, in this day and age, gives a flying fuck? You might get some incredulous looks from friends and comments along the lines of: "Hang on a minute...you paid for porn??" That's about the only stigma there is.
^ I agree that there may be less stigma with friends but when it comes to society in general, I definitely think there's still a stigma. While a large percentage of adults look at porn, how many would proudly admit to it like the sports team they support? Edited by - JigglyBoobs on 11/22/2015 12:44:55 PM
Straight guys do not talk about porn, period. If a dude started talking about his porn collection in a bar, people would move away quickly. And I live in a liberal major East Coast city. It don't happen.
Really? Must be different in Europe then. My work buddies and I often talk about porn. Obviously, you don't open up a conversation about smut with someone you just met; then there are the people who simply don't need to know, such as your in-laws. Apart from that, I don't give a fuck who knows. No shame whatsoever in porn consumption in 2015.
The best way to avoid this is to buy a Visa Gift Card with your credit card at a grocery story. Then use it to purchase your items or sites on line. You can put only the amount you need on the card to buy the one site and if they try to hustle you, the card will be declined for that additional offer. I tend to join sites only for a month or two. I download the sites I want and then save them to an external hard disk. I then can usually download a mega site in about two months. If you have a Roku and a PC you can then watch all the videos through Plex a free media server that looks and works similar to Netflix but it only has your own content. I have about two years worth of stuff I haven't watched yet from about 4 different sites. Most of which I was able to get for less than 60 bucks or two months worth of a subscription. When a site I like gets enough new material for me to watch, I then re-join for another month with a new gift card, download what I want and never have to worry about my identity being compromised or being ripped off by a B level Company like TS.
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Nov 24 2015 : 1:27PM
^ Yes, that's the preferred method, but in some of my experience, those gift cards don't always work. I've come across sites that do not accept those gift cards, presumably because their billing processor is outside the United States. For instance, HardX was one site I tried to purchase a membership for using a Visa gift card that didn't accept it, and since they apparently didn't have a backup billing processor, I had to resort to using my credit card. On the other hand, I have found that those gift cards will work for any site that has CCBill or Epoch as their billing processor.
Introducing Kalani Luana
Posted - May 28 2015 : 5:53AM
Edited by - Goldstein on 11/20/2015 1:53:54 PM