This interesting documentary is now on netflix streaming. It features interviews with Mary Carey Asia Carrera Luke Ford Nina Hartley Houston John Leslie Shelley Lubben Amber Lynn Neil Malamuth William Margold Sandra Margot Crissy Moran Richard Pacheco Raylene Seka Randy West Many interesting stories like Randy West signing away the internet and dvd rights to his movies, because vhs is the important thing. Several of the family members are also interviewed. Mary Carey did not send out all the buttons ordered when she ran for governor.
I watched this on Netflix last night. Very well done. Was nice seeing how some of the stars of the past have transitioned into a "normal" life, some better than others. Raylene can sell me a house any day!
Yeah, it was a pretty interesting documentary. I like that it was mostly unbiased. And it's always interesting to see what some ex-pornstars are up to. One part left me confused though...John Leslie gave the impression that he'd stop shooting porn in the film. Was this the case? Did John Leslie shop shooting porn for some time before he died? I was under the impression he was shooting porn pretty much until his death.
I'd actually like to see a sequel to this with more people. It was nice to see some people who've moved on with their lives, Asia Carrera and Tyffany Million, for example. Sad to watch it and realize that John Leslie is gone. Also, it shows some people who were complete messes before they entered porn and are still complete messes after they've left (cough, cough ,uh, Shelly Lubben) and the people who are still around and pretty well adjusted, like Nina Hartley. Even Luke Ford seems to come off as having, mostly, valid points. Worth watching.
I don't know really what to think of this. I haven't seen it but I guess it's good if it's popular enough that girls will watch it before they go into porn. I have never liked the idea of young girls going into porn blind and naive. I'd guess there's probably some very subtle anti-porn action going on with something like this but maybe it can work in pro-porn ways too.
^ I don't think it will turn away anyone who is serious about getting into porn. It's not really an anti-porn documentary per se. It mostly shows people who've gotten out of porn for various reasons and about half of them who were able to end up going back into the porn biz when all was said and done. The doc and the people on it doesn't really tell anyone things they shouldn't already know. There's really no one size fits all answer when it comes to getting into porn. For some getting into porn is the best thing that ever happened to them and for others it can be a disaster. It all depends on the person and the type of people they surround themselves with. The doc shows a variety of situations.
I don't either and that's not really what I was getting at. I hope it does turn away some of the ones who don't have any idea what they're getting into. Not because I have anything against porn. Quite the opposite.Unfortunately, if you read this forum (and other porn oriented forums) enough, you will see that something a person should already know isn't necessarily something every 18 year old girl who thinks it would be fun to do porn already knows.That's really beside the point I was making. Anything that can show a newbie some of the realities of porn work is really a positive for those of us who don't like seeing porn demonized by people who say the industry is exploiting naive young girls who don't know what they're doing. Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of girls shoot their first scenes with some people with questionable ethics. Others shoot their first scenes with people who expect them to be self-informed. And in the end, four years later when we're dealing with the next Shelley Lubben, those guys could be long gone. The industry at large and it's fans will likely get the blame.
The coda at the end was nice (circumstances change during what I presume to be the long time to go from filming to release) but girls like Raylene and Houston are both actively escorting -- how does that never seem to come up in discussion? Let alone one about what happens to people after porn?
The "demonizing" will never go away no matter what. Some people want to hate porn and only want to see and hear about the bad aspects of it even if those bad aspects aren't always the norm. All the anti-porn documentaries I've seen exagerrate and even lie about mainstream porn and typical pornstars and often only show a small aspect of the far less "legit" porn makers and try and make that sound like the norm. For the people and film makers who have an anti-porn agenda they will always find a way to blame the industry and it's fans. This documentary was mostly unbiased and it's agenda was to show what happened to certain porn stars after the supposedly left the industry so it wasn't really judgmental. The interviewed people like Luke Ford, Nina Hartley, Bill Margold and a others for insight and most what they said pointed out that being in porn isn't for everyone and many girls have problems before they enter the biz. Except for Crissy Moran and Shelly Lubben pretty much everyone had fond memories of first getting into the business and life in the business. The doc doesn't really show a whole lot of Shelly Lubben because it's so clear she has an agenda. Shelly tells the story of being kicked out of the house at a young age, prostituting almost immediately after being on the street, being busted several times, being held at gun point and kinda glosses over all that almost as a side note but when she into the evil porn biz that's when her life really turned to a horrorible disaster because apparently having sex in front of a film crew and having guys cum on yor face (like she had to agree to) was much worse than the life she had before. She admits to being a mess before porn and even after she quit the porn biz she still used drugs regularly but she's convinced her self (and others) that porn was this evil thing that needs to end in order to save innocent people. You immediately get the feeling if Shelly didn't have this crusade to keep her occupied she'd go right back to being a hopeless mess. Even though Crissy says she didn't have a good porn experience she doesn't say porn is a horrible thing, she just implies it wasn't for her. I don't buy that in these times a girl could willingly enter porn without having an idea of what to expect. It's far to easy to get info on the porn biz. It's far to easy to meet or communicate with pornstars in the biz. And I think legit agencies want to weed out girls they don't think can handle being in porn. I think most girls know what to expect but don't know how to actually handle or can't handle what they are told to expect. I'm sure there are some less legit porn avenues out there but again, there's no reason a girl shouldn't know a shady operation when they come across one because there's so much representation of the more "legit" porn operations out there.
The escorting aspect is the dirty little secret pornstars don't like to admit to but everyone knows goes on. I think pornstars don't like to admit it because they see it as something can't come back to haunt them if they don't talk about it and people won't know about since it doesn't get filmed. Plus I think they find it more embarrassing than porn. At least with the porn movies they can look at that and say it's not something anyone can do or be successful and there's an element of glamour to it. But to be a mere hooker isn't anything special and you're having sex with pretty much anyone who can come up with the money. Most people tend to see it as several rungs lower on the sex trade ladder.
FYI this is available from Amazon also. Here is trailer for it: Trailer for After Porn Ends on Amazon Instant I haven't seen this yet but I doubt I will hear anything new I haven't heard before. Most retired pornstars end up in one of the following categories (in no particular order): 1. feature dancer/stripper (not as common after 2008 recession, most now escorting instead of stripping). 2. escort (typically based in LA, Las Vegas, or NYC, some may find a sugar daddy but its very rare) 3. working misc jobs in adult industry (not performing) (e.g. makeup, production assistant, director, marketing/sales) 4. working low income service jobs (usually in smaller more rural town where less likely to be recognized and the cost of living is much more cheap than places like LA or NYC typically a service or retail job that doesn't require degrees or experience) 5. single mother on welfare (Note: Gotta have at least one kid to get govt assistance here) 6. dead from suicide, drug overdose, or cancer classic porn stars now and then
No. I am not the least bit ashamed of my sex worker past, but it is entirely possible that I could lose my job(s) if it became public knowledge at my workplace(s). I have worked much too hard to get to where I am to jeopardize my position(s).
I can guarantee you that porn girls - even the famous ones - let clients film them fucking; it doesn't seem believable, but it's very true. And I agree with the points you made - the people may try to hide it, or call it escorting - but it is endemic throughout the industry; to make a documentary about what happens to people after porn, and then to exclude what is probably the largest source of income to girls after porn, just seems like sloppy film-making -- or that not everyone actually does know it goes on, which also seems like it should get mentioned by a film that attempts to do some exploratory work.
That's true. After reading your post I realized most of the pornstars interviewed for the doc work for themselves or in the case of Houston hadn't started working (in the health care field). I think only Raylene (a realator)really worked for someone else. Houston claimed she worked in Real Estate but got fired when someone recognized her.
Yeah, some clients probably film some escorts but unless that client posts it on the net chances are only a very small amount of people will ever see the film. It's less likely the wrong people will see it so the girl feels safer about it. Since most pornstars don't publically admit the escort I would imagine the interviewer wouldn't have ended up with much talk on the subject. In the documentary Bill Margold actually mentions that some pornstars escort to supplement their income and he said he doesn't like the idea.
I suspect this is the reason most people don't think retired porn performers go on to lead relatively "normal" lives. Once you have something to lose, you avoid the attention that might have unpleasant results. On the other hand, if you have nothing to lose any attention might have a positive result. So we hear from those who have troubles, or who don't leave the industry, or who have an anti-industry agenda, but we don't hear from people like me.
True but it's going to get harder for them to claim young 18 year old girls are too stupid to know what's good for them if documentaries like this one become so popular that nearly everyone has seen them.And as I say, this is just fine with me. Porn ISN'T for everyone and people should know that. These are not things we should be trying to hide if we want porn (as an industry and an interest) to be vindicated in the minds of people who are willing to give it a fair hearings. Some people won't no matter what. This is obvious. There are some bad things about working the porn business and the porn business shouldn't try to hide them. Because it's going to come out one way or another. But the important thing is to highlight the fact that the bad stuff is usually the result of a few bad apples. You can't make that point if the whole industry works together on burying the uglier realities and they get caught at it. This information should be available to young girls who may be considering a porn career. It should be up to them to make an informed decision.This is all true. However..... 1. If it isn't very public and documented, the anti-porners can simply deny it and it's very hard to prove them wrong. Remember. They don't want to know (or especially acknowledge) the truth so trusting them to use common sense isn't going to work. They will just deny it all and play dumb and when they are playing to the uninitiated in the general public, they will mostly succeed. People who don't watch porn (or read forums like this one even if they do) are not going to know any of those things you listed above and you can't trust them to go digging for it either. They might if they're really curious and they want the truth but they probably won't. Then where are we? The only information they get about porn comes from anti-porners. The porn industry should be talking directly to the general public and I believe this documentary is probably a very good way to do that. 2. I think it does really happen. I think there are girls who leap before they look. I believe there are young girls who have probably not watched very much porn who think they'll do a couple of scenes for extra cash and have no idea what they're getting into. This would seem to defy all common sense but all the anti-porners need is one really bad case and they have their example. They'll amplify that one extreme case a million times louder than it should be and guess where the burden of proof will be. It doesn't matter how it happens. It doesn't matter if she's an idiot who should have taken the initiative. Porn will get the blame.
I think you're right from the performer aspect. But from the public aspect it seems so many people just think pornstars are only good at being pornstars or being in the sex trade and they aren't capable of anything else and are unstable disaters. And/or if they do try to make it at anything someone will find out who they are/were and fire them immediately. And like you mention we almost always only hear about the bad stuff because that's more news-worthy or from people who still cling on to the business in one way or another. Edited by - draxxx on 1/7/2013 9:42:24 PM
Again, in the end it doesn't matter because the people who want attack porn will always do so and if they have to use the most extreme examples or just make stuff up to try and make their point. If from this point on every girl who enters porn says it a wonderful experience they would simply ignore those girls and keep talking to the girls who have horror stories. They would continue to present lies as facts. They would continue to paint the picture that all porn sets and situations are like the stuff MAX HARDCORE or the extreme websites do. I don't see the anti-porn crowd as much problem because most people simply ignore them. I think most people simply know better. Sure, the anti-porn crowd gets coverage from time to time but it's mostly because sex sells and not because most people agree with them or believe all the stuff they say. Most people are smart enough to hear someone like Shelly Lubben and know she was/is the problem and not porn. To buy into Shelly's nonsense you'd have to believe and buy into Shelly was a poor innocent victim who was forced to stay in porn as long as she did and forced to do all these horrible things and wasn't able to say no or walk away. You'd also have to have to buy into that her doing porn was a worse senerio than when she was a hooker on the streets getting beaten and busted by the cops. You'd also have to overlook her drug problems before during and after porn. Then if you still buy into all that you'd have to ingore the thousands of pornstars who did porn and didn't have those type of problems. Only the anti-porn crowds go along with Shelly because she attacks the porn biz and tells these horrible stories. Most sensible people after listening to Shelly for a few minutes start wondering why Shelly didn't take responsiblity and walk away or fix herself. It's clear she makes porn a scapegoat for her problems. BTW...Mercedes Ashley has a great interview on Youtube where she is very frank about her life in and out of porn. She talks about getting in, her home life before porn, dealing with the public, telling her kids about what she does, talks about certain directors, and her fans. Her background isn't that much different than Shelly L. but she didn't let herself be a victim and blame the porn industry. Great interview and very enlightning and even though I was a big fan of Mercedes I'm an even bigger fan now.
I watched the Mercedes Ashley interview and thought it was very good also. You can see why she has such a cold demeanor after listening to how she grew up and hates her mother. She has had a really rough life. FYI there is a whole bunch of pornstar interviews done by the user "slowdive626". Looks like they may have been working on a documentary and ran out of money so they posted their work to youtube. They have interviews with a lot of stars like Mika Tan (3 parts), Obsession (retired), Olivia O'Lovely (retired), Marey Carey, James Deen, Tommy Gunn, Mr Marcus, Aurora Snow, Haley Paige (deceased), Renee Pornero, Vicki Vette, and so on. Those are in-depth personal interviews which are very good. They also have some weak interviews that were done at some erotica show. The Mika Tan interview is a must watch. They do three part interview with her. She talks about how she got into porn, about her family issues, etc. Her second husband appears in part 3. They just recently got divorced. She talks about working at the Bunny Ranch and how she has two anal incidents she had to go to emergency room for. In Mr Marcus' interview he mentions how he's been married for long time with two daughters. Contrast that with what Mercedes Ashley says about why she refuses to get a bf after so many bad experiences. Most of the interviews were done several years ago. In Tommy Gunn's interview he says he is married to Rita Faltoyano. They divorced long time ago and she is working as an escort in the UK now. Goto youtube and search for "slowdive626" and you will see these interviews.
I just typed "porn ends" into Netflix's search bar to add this to my instant queue, and the fifth result is "My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic." Just ahead of "Porn Star: The Legend of Ron Jeremy." Maybe I should be watching MLP.
^ Perhaps the MY LITTLE PONY movie is about what happened to the poor little pony when the popularity went away and the pony found itself with no money and 500 dollar a day oats habit and was forced to perform in donkey shows in Mexico.
Actually, what I found so surprising about the interview is that all that happened to her and how cold and calculating she about porn and the biz. Because I met her at an AVN show years ago and she was probably one of the nicest and most fun pornstar I ever came in contact with. She seemed to be having a great time and was very nice to the fans/people who she interacted with and went above and beyond to everyone. I would've never guessed she had that type of background or viewed porn strictly as a business. I never knew about her before that show but became a huge fan of her's because of it (and because the fact that I think she's very sexy). She has every reason to be angry and bitter about her past life but choose not to hang on to and dwell about that part of her life and move on. Like I said, after seeing that interview I'm an even bigger fan of hers.
Read the pornstar updates in the classic porn stars now and then thread I created and you will see almost all of them end up in one of the categories I listed.
Nice review of the doc by Charlotte Shane. I agree with pretty much everything she says. I watched the doc recently at a screening and participated in a Q&A/discussion afterwards. It was very interesting to hear peoples' perspectives and how some preconceived notions had been shaken. I also found it interesting that for one or two people, their preconceived notions would not be shaken by anything - any stuff in the documentary that contradicted their beliefs were dismissed as lies and/or exceptions. One thing that didn't get addressed in the doc, but that was discussed at some length by those at the screening, is the difference in how men and women experience life after porn (Shane raises this in her review). Another issue raised at the screening was how the doc featured all hetero, white (other than Raylene and Asia Carrera), and cis-gendered performers. It would be nice for someone to make a documentary that acknowledged the full spectrum of porn. I was not able to offer any titles of comprehensive documentaries on gay porn, even. Just a couple of biographical ones.
^ Do you have any theories on why so many people including porn fans and apparently people in the porn biz look down on porn girls as being dumb, "broken" and apparently unable to successfully do anything else besides have sex for money? It's one thing for outsiders to have such notions but it seems strange and sad for guys like Luke Ford and others connected with the biz (and living off it) to have such a low opinion of the girls. Particularly since it's not like they're doing anything so important takes such a high skillset themselves.
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Feb 14 2013 : 4:44AM
That's a good review but I'm not convinced that it would be true to say that the women are worst off than the men, I suspect the contrast may have more to do with the changes in the industry since the 70s and the different motivations of the people in the industry after the features era. After all, Leslie certainly looks happy but if they had filmed Nina Hartley or Serena or Aunt Peg on their personal time, I'm not sure one would say the women were worst off. In terms of sexual abuse, it is always discussed in relation to female performers but many male performers, for instance Bill Landis and Marc Stevens (and perhaps George Payne if I'm remembering correctly), all identified themselves as having being sexual abused as children as well. I think the male performers who have experienced this are much less likely to talk openly about it. I completely agree with Hartley's comparison to rock musicians, many musicians are very self-destructive, abuse drugs, have mental issues, etc but no one today blames that on the 'rock n' roll industry' and how it exploits them.
Not even in the eyes of society? Richard Pacheco got some grief from a woman when he brought his kid to baseball, but the problem was quickly resolved by a dude who patted Pacheco on the back and approved of him for having "been in Nina Hartley's booty" or whatever the phrase was. I doubt the women would find similar approval from either men or women. Now, if Pacheco had been a gay porn star...
^ I'm guessing there's a big difference in the treatment in the way a male ex-porn star would be treated/looked at and a female one. The male ex-pornstar would probably get lots of high fives and pats on the back and the female ex-pornstar would get looks of disgust. Just look at our culture...A man goes around and sleeps with a bunch of women he's considered a stud or ladies man. A woman does the same thing and she's labelled a slut or whore.
^ Yep. And the documentary reinforced this notion. Edited to clarify, the documentary provided anecdotal evidence to support this notion of sexist, hypocritical society. I don't mean the filmmakers believed it to be fair. Edited by - Gore Gore Girl on 2/15/2013 9:43:30 PM
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Feb 16 2013 : 2:46AM
I agree that the condemnation of the women performers is much more harsh than the men. Obviously, women get a rawer deal than men in general and in porn only (or perhaps?) more so. The same attitude is reflected in the comments about how messed up, drugged out and sexually abused the women must be, but no comments of a similar nature about the male performers. I was more referring more to the notion that somehow porn 'damaged' the women more than the men.
^ If I'm understanding your comment correctly, that's more a society thing too. Think about when a teacher has sex with a student. If it's a Male teacher having sex with a female student the reaction is usually "that dirty older man violated that poor girl and has ruined her for life and should be thrown under the jail, blah, blah, blah....". However, if it's a Female teacher with a male student, people's reactions are usually more along the lines of "What?! Why did he ruin a good thing bying blabbing! I wish that had happen to me in school! The kid's a real man now...". It seems we've been program to think anything sexual happening with a girl is impactful, dramatic, and sometimes disgusting while being different for a man. If people heard a girl got gangbanged by 6 men outside of (or even in) porn the usual reaction is "Oh my God, that awful. She'll need counselling. No person should have to go through that....". Even if she willing did it would be preceived as the girl has problems and needs help. Now if people heard on the news that 6 women gangbanged a guy the reation would be "THAT LUCKY BASTARD!!!" That would be followed by tons of jokes about it. I tend to think society programs people to believe sexual activity for women in certain instances is traumatic and the women believe this and act/react accordingly, while men who go through the same things act/react totally different because they've been programed toward sex differently.
"You have sacrificed nothing and no one." 3689 Posts 8/10
Posted - Feb 16 2013 : 11:24AM
You know, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." If and when someone starts looking under rocks, every single one of us can be made to look like the most broken, screwed-up loser that ever walked the planet. People who stand out above the crowd are the ones who get hit with the tomatoes. Musicians, movie stars, politicians and, yes, pornstars, get singled out because they stand out. Then, all the pre-written scripts and judgments are applied. Personally, I've always held the girls that are pornstars and strippers in high regard. To be good at it is not an easy thing. Especially when you start to factor in all the douchebags and judgmental types they have to deal with. Pornstars are the same as everyone else. No more; no less. Frankly, I'd like to bash-in the heads of all the bankers who launder drug money, and all the media corporations that run all the skin during sweeps-weeks while they tsk-tsk and wag their fingers. Pedophile priests... Politicians on the take... Crooked cops... Human traffickers... Third-world child-labor and sweat-shops... But noooo, we need to focus on who sucked cocks on camera for a living -- and make their lives a living hell should they ever be outed down the road
Exactly. When Luke Ford said that thing about the women acting like everything is ok, but at 5am they are tortured souls, I thought "Who isn't?" It's unfair to hold specific groups of people up to some sort of unattainable standard. The only way some people seem to approve of (or tolerate) sex workers is if they are 100% sobre, 100% happy, 100% healthy, and even (absurdly) that they don't do their job for financial purposes. In addition, sex workers are constantly demanded to prove all of this with ample evidence and sincerity. We don't ask this of "regular" people, so why do we ask this of sex workers? When discussing stuff like this, I often think of the wonderful section in Live Sex Acts (Section II: "Working It") about sex work as *work* ( and the essay written by Amsterdam sex worker Joe Doezema. I've quoted this a couple of times on my blog, but it bears repeating: "I think for almost everybody I make it more positive than it is, because everybody has such a negative idea about it already. So you tend to only talk about the good things or the funny things. With most jobs, if you have a shitty day or a bad client or something, people don't immediately say that it's because of the kind of work you do and that you must stop right away. But with prostitution, I've always felt that if I didn't convince everybody that this work was fantastic for me and that I really loved it that they would all be on my back to quit. Anytime something negative happens in your work, it just confirms peoples' worst suspicions" (120-121).
I don't know if my theory is any good but here goes. I would say that part of the blame has to be placed on some of the performers themselves. Let's be honest. How many porn performers who have appeared on Howard STern show over the years have enforced the view that they porn performers aren't very bright by making complete asses of themselves by playing Howards games? He even has a game called Dumb as a Rock where he makes fun of the ladies who play it. I'd also like to add that if porn girls are considered dumb then part of the reason is that society too often e1quals good looks with a lack of inteligence. How many Hollywood starlets are also considered dumb? I know that many people think Megan Fox is pretty dumb. As for why do people think that porn performers are unable to do anything but have sex on film. It could be that most of us have never considered doing that for money and therefore we can't really conceptualise the reasons why anyone else would. Especially when having sex with strangers who will more than likely give them a few STD's during their time in porn. Some of which will be of the permanent kind. Is it that unusual in those cases for us to think that porn performers cnn't hold any other jobs and sort of drift toward porn?
Here's a little known secret about those kind of games Howard Stren plays with pornstars...The girls that show up specifically to play those games aren't just randomly picked. They call porn agents and specifically ask for the dumbest girls. I'd also suspect that the girls are asked top play up the dumb to make Howard happy because if the girl is able to answer too many of the questions the bit falls flat and Howard becomes annoyed and perhaps won't call that agent or have those girls on again. One time when they were playing one of those "dumbest pornstar" games one of the girls scheduled to show couldn't make it and Trina Michaels filled in last minute. Trina was answering all the questions correctly and it was very obvious Howard and the crew were annoyed the game wasn't going like they hoped and the called it a bust afterwards. Why would pornstars put up with that? For a chance to be on the Stern show and possibly have the career boost girls like Jenna Jameson, Houston, and Tabitha Stevens got from being on the show. There was a male pornstar who had a new porngirl ask what could she do to become a famous pornstar and the guy to her do a weird stunt that will get you enough attention to make Howrd want to have you on his show. There was a time when the Stern show had the clout and audience to make people famous and/or move lots of product. That's why so many people go on that show and kiss his ass so hard.I think many people do that when they want to attack or put down good looking women and have no ammunintion otherwise. It's the easy stereotype to fall back on when calling them a bitch is over the top. The funny part of this is most often the people calling the pretty girls dumb never seem particulary smart themselves. There've been plenty of pornstars who've posted here. Based on what you've seen them post compared to the supposedly smart porn fan who post here would would you put most of them if any in the top 50% of dumb posters you've seen posting here? I'm not saying those porngirls are rocket scientists but compared to most of their fanbase I think they do just fine in the smarts department.
Posted - Dec 16 2012 : 9:18AM
