B) Not exactly. It has come about as a result of jousting tournaments between various local attorneys general and the various retailers, distributors, and production companies. Such tournaments occur with amazing regularity - particularly in election years.

C) It is quite likely that they would be faced with serious civil and criminal action based on local morality ordinances in a variety of the more conservative jurisdictions.

To further explain the situation, US porn providers have settled in on a production values scheme that offends the least people in most jurisdictions and simply do not distribute their products to those jurisdictions where the [pseudo-]morality factor is significantly higher than norm - whatever norm may be. As a result, there are states, cities, and some odds-and-ends of postal zip codes (primarily in so-called bible-belt areas) where porn is not available at all in the US.

Strange land we live in, isn't it?

~ GaySatyr

Edited by - GaySatyr on 7/18/2003 1:12:27 AM

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(A/B) I am sure that the jousting tournament between local DA's and porn companies did take place. But now the dust has settled, some workable situation has arisen, and my question is about this second phase. Somehow this has led to the current "house rules" where double anal is acceptable while fisting is unacceptable.

(C) Well, I think you exaggarate the legal risks! Please note that Scott Kinney runs his business -importing and distributing fisting videos/DVDs- for many years without any legal problems.

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There are many niche producers and importer/distributors who slip through the cracks by being extremely careful not to attract too much attention to themselves, often by distributing product directly rather than through retail channels and/or by severely restricting where they will sell their products - particularly avoiding many of the bible-belt destinations.

For example, check out the shipping restrictions by such major online retail outlets as Adult DVD Empire and TLA Video - most others have similar practices. Also, many studios sell so called director's cut versions of their videos (containing especially hardcore material, including golden showers, fisting, and other heavy fetish acts) directly, rather than through retail channels - again with restrictions as to where they will ship.

~ GaySatyr

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This same question about shipping was discussed here and an answer provided by ADE.

The term "local restrictions" is the operating phrase, and yes the local authorities can be/are still very active.

Here is the ADE regulations of where they will ship and where they will not.

There is one ADT member (that I know of) that lives in Utah and has stated that there is only a single retailer that will/can ship discretely to Utah. The rest avoid it for possible conflicts.

As GS said, "Strange land we live in, isn't it?"

DenverDon

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In the UK, as you will all know, hardcore videos were considered unacceptable and to sell them was illegal.

The UK censor changed their mind on this 3 years ago because they couldn't justify keeping it illegal on video when people could just see it whenever they wanted to on the internet.

Its the same reasoning that prompted magazines like Penthouse in the US to start slowly introducing hardcore into traditionally softcore magazines, especially since the soft market was pretty much being usurped by mainstream magazines like FHM and Loaded who could provide major mainstream celebrities in their underwear.

When there's enough exposure to a more mainstream audience, what is considered acceptable changes, and rules become relaxed. People's attitudes change and more liberal attitudes enter the mainstream which then filter to what is acceptable on the fringes.

Likewise its only a matter of time before the UK joins the rest of Europe and adult viewers will be able to subscribe to PPV hardcore TV channels.

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I suppose my questions were not clear, for you are all focusing on related issues like:
* community standards
* shipping/distribution policies
* niche companies
* special editions (director's cut; Euro-versions)
* changing morality

I am much more interested in the rules (or consensus, gentleman's agreement, deals, juris prudence) that determine what are the acceptable and unacceptable sex acts in hardcore porn releases of the main US companies.

For some reason Diabolic and Rosebud are quite confident that even the most ambitious anti-porn DA in Utah will not prosecute them for the immoral act of double anal, and so these companies release DVDs like "Un-natural Sex" (7, 8, 9) and "2 Deep" which have DAP as the main feature.

Another example is Evil Angel. They shy away from fisting (or bottle play...). But at the same time the Euro Angels Hardball series has some pretty hard stuff, e.g. Christoph Clark putting on his black glove and then proceeding to insert four fingers in a girl's ass. Evil Angel must be quite certain that while 5 fingers is prosecutable, 4 fingers is legally safe.

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I believe that one strong factor that may (or may not) be leading to your confusion may be "Jurisdiction." It may be quite legal for a company (in California for example) to create porn that is graphically hardcore, but owning or viewing the resulting product may very well be illegal elsewhere (the Bible-belt for example). It actually works the same way with alcohol where I live. You can drive 30 minutes to pick up a beer and drink it, but you can't take it home and drink it. (and Yes, I do live in the Bible-belt so things are a little screwed up)

That is why there is little to no "Rules" in place and why we really can't answer your question. Some push the envelope in hopes that they won't attract attention, but most will just stick with the balance of most accepted and yet still hardcore. Hence, your consensus.

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Cambria List

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The main thing that producers need to do is try to stay from obscenity charges. However, since obscenity is very subjective and a fluid concept as society opinion on morality changes, it is not possible to predict with much accuracy what will and will not fly. Add in the outdated and unworkable idea of "community standards" and the water is even more murky.

Now that the Internet is here, and traditional notions of jurisdication and the community are obsolete, I see this old scheme eventually falling by the wayside. Since no one is going to prosecuting these kinds of cases much, it could take a long time for this to happen formally.

I sense that porn has gained a *much* greater acceptance with younger generations and the idea of the government trying to outlaw it with the Internet in place seems ludicrous now.

-- Snowman

Edited by - snowman872 on 7/18/2003 2:02:59 PM

Edited by - snowman872 on 7/18/2003 2:03:46 PM

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The list says nothing about multiple penetration. Therefore DP, DAP, DPP, all triples, quadruples etc are acceptable. Lucky for Hardz and Ronk!

No fisting. Okay, fisting implies 5 finger insertion. So if you insert only 4 (make sure the thumb is always visible!) you stay within the rules.

No peeing, no heavy bondage, no S&M. Not much logic here, it is simply on the list, and the companies adhere to it.

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Scott Kinney
Diversified Video Associates
www.xxx-imports.com

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It is not very "lawyerly" to do "sloppy" research, is it?


bono-One said:
"Being attractive and having modest to nice sized breasts helps."

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"DP, DAP, DPP, all triples, quadruples" ... all that stuff could easily be challenged as obscene. Would such a charge be successful? Who knows? -- it depends on a zillion different variables including the bias of the randomly selected jury enpaneled.

And common beliefs like 4 fingers are OK but 5 is not, that's hypothetical hogwash also. Four fingers could be challeged as obscene and conversely 5 fingers could be found *not* to be obscene. It's absurd that a rubber fist dildo or any giant dildo in general is OK, but five real fingers are not.

My personal feeling is that MANY of today's features could be found obscene. The acts depicted do not represent the mainstream sexual experience and my gut tells me whenever xxx footage veers off depictions of vanilla sex, the risk that the footage is obscene grows tremendously.

So why don't see much legal action in this area? First, it has become polically less acceptable to waste government resources legislating morality. There are many more pressing matters to attend to. I think another key factor is that Porn is everywhere on the Internet and the Internet is now reaching mainstream America. To some degree I think even people who oppose porn have just accepted it will be there. Everyone has become much more desensitized to even extreme porn. The "answer" to the "porn problem" has shifted from trying to outlaw it to just ignore it.

-- Snowman

Edited by - snowman872 on 7/18/2003 9:11:49 PM

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Trisha, Skeeter, Brandon Iron, Jewel ... I am sure you have insightful information on this matter, and I hope you are willing to share it with us.

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As long as the Supreme Court of the United States stands by its "community standards" ruling, I don't believe any producer of porn (or even controversial) films can ever be "sure" what they produce won't lead to prosecution.

Here in the United States, there are hundreds of small counties in the various 50 states, and each has its own prosecutorial agency. Almost all of these prosecutors (or at least the head of the prosecutorial agency) are elected by the people of that jurisdiction.

At any time, one of these local prosecutors could decide that double anal is obscene and violates their "community standards". This could lead to a criminal prosecution that would almost certainly cost those charged thousands of dollars to defend, and if a jury buys the argument could actually result in prison time for the producer and/or distributor. As an example, there was a recent thread here on ADT about a prosecutor in Ohio going after Larry Flynt yet again.

As long as the power to decide what is obscene is left to local prosecutors, judges and jurys, the porn producers will never really know if what they are producing is going to send them to prison.

The problem is, the producers can't make 10 or 50 or 100 different versions of each feature, to fit into what each local jurisdiction sees as not obscene. To make money, and avoid these mostly absurd prosectutions, the producers must do their best to guess what won't be found to be obscene, and release that to the entire country.

And before anyone starts to think that these types of prosecutions only happen in the "Bible Belt", I can tell you the story of a friend of mine who was a police officer assigned to "vice" duty in a large city here in Northern California. Part of his job was to go to porn shops, rent movies and watch them to see if they contained any bondage sex scenes. If he had found one, charges would have been filed.

I realize I have been babbling for awhile, and I don't know if I answered the question. But, I feel better having spoken my mind.

"I'm going to give you a little advice. There's a force in the Universe that makes things happen. All you have to do is get in touch with it, stop thinking, let things happen, and be the ball."
Always HoldenMagroin

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I do not live in america and i do not want to come across as someone who hates america as well ... BUT ... It makes me really wanna womit to read all this what has been written. I can only think of these words -> pure hypocrisy and double standard !

I hear phrases like united we stand , freedom of speech , community standards and other phrases i can not recall right now. And yet i´t is not possible for an american citizen to watch what he/she desires in his/her own home ? drink what he/she want´s in his/her own home ? drink a beer in public without that ridiculous brown bag over the bottle (even though everybody knows what oneIS drinking anyway)

It all comes down to this: Everywhere people are being kept down by the so called authorities who watch over the community standards . I say F ´em ! They only want to make you fit into their limited brain suits

and by the way ... who voted for these people anyway ? The community ? ... great ... that´s a community i wanna live in ... NOT

And you think former countries like the DDR where bad

For someone who hasn´t visited the staates ... that does not make them more appealing at all. Ad to this that some staates even outlawing vcrs, telephones and other modern day equipment that really does it for me !

I could go on but i have to go to the lavatory ...

Cube

Edited by - cubesnake on 7/19/2003 7:39:49 AM

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Red Triangle Films (UK)
www.redtrianglefilms. com

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The most recent episode of that particular oddity was in Kansas (Wizard of Oz, anyone?); however it has been overturned (again).

The biggest problem with pornography is that it is an easy target from the pulpit (especially by the uber-christians) and the political soap box (especially in an election year). Each sees attacks on pornography as a way to prove he's doing his job. And each has a captive audience willing to be led like sheep without ever questioning the rationality of the persecution.

The "community standard" against which pornography is judged is usually the pseudo-morality of the group with the noisiest leader - be it a preacher in a Wednesday evening summer revival service or a politician stumping for reelection.

And the police love the arrest statistics, regardless that it's really a waste of their time and resources. (Hey, it costs the pornographers beaucoups of dollars, too - that's somewhat of a win, isn't it?) Even in their loss, they can claim that they tried and the evil pornographers weaseled out under a perversion of the first amendment. (Our right to free speech being more right than your right to free speech - right?) All the more reason to vote for that uber-christian, ultra-conservative candidate in the next election so we can get something done! Hallelujah! And pray for the deaths of those evil liberal justices! Amen, Brother!

~ GaySatyr

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If you're aware of a country anywhere in the world which is free of hyprocrisy and double standards, please identify it.

Comparing the US to a wretched police state like the former East Germany because you can buy fuck films and bondage films, but can't easily buy bondage-with-fucking films, here is ridiculous, frankly.

I have no idea what your comment about some states "outlawing vcrs, telephones, and other modern day equipment" refers to.

To get back to the original topic, I have heard that the no pissing, no fisting, no bondage with sex, etc. rules originated with Los Angeles law enforcement agencies. Many of the "Golden Age" porn movies (i.e., movies that were shot on film and shown in movie theaters) contained this kind of content, but a tacit agreement eventually evolved in which the movie makers stuck to "normal" sex and the vice squad stopped raiding theaters.

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First, this is the sort of thread I've been waiting for since signing up here. Excellent posts.

So, would such small houses as Mother Productions, AVSN, JR Productions, Filmco/Bacchus, Wildlife, Shooting Star, and others be among those who are said to be testing the limits? Mother's Peeing and Squat & Squirt series could not possibly be more clinical, more graphic. This studio's work is every bit as strong (more so, in fact) than some of the imported peeing/pissing/golden-showers material I've been ordering from Glimpse and Hightide.

Yet Mother's raunchiest, most gynecological peeing titles are readily available from such established online vendors as Adult DVD Now, Adult DVD Explorer, and Xonair. (However, Adult DVD Empire discontinued its selection of peeing-oriented titles last year, citing in a thread here at ADT the fear of being prosecuted.)

So, while the laws are nebulous and (intentionally) vague to allow for election-year DA theatrics, it seems to me it is up to the individual consumer to do her or his research. If there's something one wants, there's someone else out there willing to offer it.

As for possession: Are people in the bible belt subject to prosecution? If a law-enforcement officer is answering a call somewhere in Alabama and stumbles across someone's porn library and sees, say, a copy of Peeing #14: Extreme Close-ups , is the victim subject to arrest?

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-- Snowman

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A long time ago, the Court decided that one of the categories of speech not protected by the 1st Amendment is "obscene" speech. This in turn led to constant battles ever since over what should be considered obscene.

However, as I stated in my other posts, I think the influence of the morality police in this area is on the decline as porn is more pervasive and accepted. Also interfering with the sexual practices of other consenting adults seems to be out of fashion too, which is good news for the industry.

Also, I will note that a very strict, literal, reading of the Constitution *would* support the idea that free speech is absolute. None of these unprotected categories or speech with lesser protection (such as commercial advertising) is to be found in the document. It is all common law created by courts, so it is subject to the whims and follies of the time.

-- Snowman

Edited by - snowman872 on 7/20/2003 2:27:16 AM

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>At any time, one of these local prosecutors could decide
>that double anal is obscene and violates their "community
>standards". This could lead to a criminal prosecution.

In deciding whether material is obscene and prosecution can be started, local prosecutors not only look at "community standards". They must follow procedures, standards and guidelines.

There may well be a prosecutorial guideline that no obscenity charges must be pressed, unless the material contains sexual acts as mentioned on a specific list.

Such a guideline would not be made public.

Edited by - nudity on 7/20/2003 2:59:13 PM

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In NYC, on the other hand, movies containing Fisting, Golden Showers, and Shitting can easily be found at many video stores. Store owners there don't fear prosecution.

Despite the fact that you seem to badly want there to be a "list" of what can and can't be sold, there isn't one. Repeatedly replying to posts telling you that there isn't a list with things like "There has to be a list of rules" is not going to make such a list magically appear.

There is no list of what can or can not be prosecutable in videos sold in the U.S.

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Question: "... Are there [prosecutorial] guidelines? Are there reference points that you all know to file?"

Answer: "I have an acronym for it, called "CURBFHP." The "C" stands for "children involved." The "U" is for urination or defecation in conjunction with sex acts. The "R" is for rape scenes. The "B" is for bestiality. The "F" is fisting or foot insertion. The "H" is for homicide or dismemberment in conjunction with the sex act. And the "P" is for severe infliction of pain. So those are the seven general categories that we prosecute. ----- We do not prosecute people having sex with each other, even if it's a situation where there's a lot of people. It doesn't matter if it's vaginal intercourse, anal intercourse."

It certainly looks as if the US hardcore porn companies pay very close attention to the Los Angeles prosecutorial guideline.

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The only thing a prosecutor needs to bring a case before the court is to get a grand jury (a group of ordinary citizens empanelled for a particular case) to agree that whatever the prosecutor's office wants to prosecute is obscene. Then the case goes to court. If, in the process of the trial, the prosecutor succeeds in winning his case, then he sets a new community standard of obscenity - FOR THAT JURISDICTION ONLY - not statewide, not nationally; if the prosecutor loses, well, he loses - it doesn't even mean that he can't try again.

However, a prosecutor would not be very bright and could not stay long in office if he repeatedly brought cases against defendants which he could not win (or which, on appeal, are overturned by a higher court). That is basically the only deterrent against massive prosecutions against pornography all over the country.

~ GaySatyr

Edited by - GaySatyr on 7/21/2003 12:48:00 PM

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I'm locking this thread.

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