To be honest, it looks to me as if alot of girls don't seem to have many limits at all (or at least, don't protest openly about something which is too extreme for them) I mean, just look at the type of things some of these extreme sex films have. You have everything from extreme bondage to scat to fisting to choking, etc.
Lazerus wrote:Although "a woman with no limits" exists only in the hyperbole of imagination, the desire of viewers for performers with extremely flexible limits connects to TonyC's observation regarding the persistent (and healthy and appropriate) search of most porn fans for evidence of the woman's consent and enjoyment. The fan's core fantasy in most cases, I think, is not to violate the woman -- but to be greeted with enthusiastic participation from her in connection with any and every personally wished-for sex act.
Going back to what BSD said earlier, I think this rather specific wish partly explains why, despite the relative wealth of porn girls who are (seemingly?) avid to perform more extreme stuff, fans are often deeply unsatisfied unless the particular object (subject?) of their affections will smilingly run the gauntlet for them.
this is one of the reasons i rarely post on ADT in the porn forums anymore...
yes we all would like to see our favorite girls do what we want them to, but in reality, thats not always the case - apparently people can't be satisfied just watching a girl they like actually fucking for everyone to see...
times have changed...
the amount of flack girls get for not doing a certain act is ridiculous...
i can't even bother to read many of the threads cuz they're all the same! i'd probably chalk some of it up to porno burnout but sometimes i just wanna say "seriously? you're devoting how much of your time to arguing over this? it's fucking porn. get a life."
- Mike
Edited by - Pornmaster Mike on 8/8/2006 4:33:55 PM
I can barely read any thread in Star Crossed anymore without wanting to slap some of the idiots who post there. I find it hard to believe some girls are so needy that they give these jarheads the time of day. In fact, my waning interest in ADT (hard to believe, I know, given the posts) has a lot to do with this element.
I feel the same way that Skronker and Pornmaster Mike do, which is why I started this thread. The "upper" forums on this message board have become increasingly uncivilized and repugnant.
Lazerus wroteIn more recent times women with voraciously healthy sexual appetites (and perhaps less limits) haven’t exactly been celebrated in our society have they? Slut and whore are generally only terms of adulation in porn or whispered in the confines of the bedroom.
For women to openly state their sexual desires can leave them open to harsh judgement, so perhaps in the real world lots of women don’t say what they really want (or how often they’d like it ). That can make sex in the real world kind of confusing especially for men trying to interpret what a woman may want sexually.
Along comes porn where the women are living embodiments of every man’s sexual fantasy – women who clearly like sex. Isn’t that the promise and fantasy of porn? The sexually adventurous woman who welcomes and desires your advances, is easy to please (if her pleasure matters), a woman whose sexuality isn’t the big “mystery” it is in real life. A woman who admires you as a man for being sexually voracious too, instead of shunning your sexual appetite as some kind of unhealthy fixation.
+1 this is a large part of why i watch porn. but i find it hard to see the woman enjoying herself when i see some max hardcore style flick where it's more or less him defiling her for an hour. i think that's where the lines are really blurred. the girls look like 'malleable props' but is that because max is a misogynist or because they like that submissive role play? hillary scott did a max scene for the challenge and she (i think) enjoyed it. and he has his cast of regulars that reappear all the time. i am endlessly fascinated by this extremely limit pushing porn because it really jumps out and says 'HEY! CAN YOU SEE MY CONSCIENCE? CAN YOU SEE MY ETHICS?' and it makes me wonder if i can.
MH is interesting because his scenes aren't necesarily an example of the 'woman with no limits,' but rather the 'disregard for and pushing of woman's limits.' ideally, i'd prefer a more toned down version of max's act, because it portrays a dangerous brand of misogyny, but his 'art' poses bold questions for me, and they're too complicated to merely disregard.
I, for one, enjoy the challenge, and am disappointed when the woman is so easy. I would actually really enjoy seeing a sexually confident woman (not a 'slut') try to seduce a man (preferably another woman) and for the 'actors' to keep a straight face and actually conceal that smirk that says 'i know i'm going to fuck you.' nobody wears that in real life because it's a sure sign you won't be getting fucked.
Excellent. I thought everyone would be feeling me completely, but I grok not.
We are discussing the fantasy of the sexual partner without limits as if this were an unattainable myth. But she's always been attainable in the form of the prostitute. The hooker. The gigolo. The hustler. The Whore.
Pornographic videos are a recording of the prostitutional act of paying for sex. The "woman with no limits" is now and always has been The Prostitute, with or without the presence of a camera.
Oh, but the myth of the Limitless Woman now crashes with your reality, darling. The Limitless Woman, having no limits, will not limit herself to you. Jealousy arches his furry back. Duplicity slithers out from between his teeth. I want The Limitless Woman, but I don't want her to
*raise my children *teach the community's children *be seen by children
But it's ok for you to sneak off to Thailand and purchase Limitless Women who ARE children.
I'm getting too maudlin.
Only a "Man Without Limits" deserves a woman without them.
just because someone has sex for money doesn't mean they'll do everything . i can't imagine that every prostitute is willing to do everything (maybe a crack whore, maybe). and is a prostitute really a fantasy or a myth for most men? i've always had that repulsive, gutter whore image in my mind, and i've never romanticised it. that's the harsh reality of being a prostitute, and i don't think it lends itself to a positive fantasy.
[who you tryin' ta get crazy with, ese? donchu know i'm loco?]
BustdownGal wrote:The particular fantasy that I've been investigating in this thread (and have been trying to link to certain porn-fan behaviors that occur, in my estimation, when reality and fantasy are not properly distinguished from each other) is the woman who is a full, avid partner in all the myriad sexual activities desired by the lover/viewer -- not the woman who "cooperates" for collateral reasons (such as money).Yes, my point exactly. In the fantasy I'm invoking, the woman's limitlessness only extends as far as the man's desire; it's a narcissistic fantasy to be sure. As you observe, a truly Limitless Woman in real-life would be too much for almost any man.I'm not sure who the "you" is that's sneaking off to Thailand (and it doesn't seem "ok" to me), but it sounds as if your sexuality has overwhelmed some of the lovers in your life. That's a shame and I empathize with you.Agreed. And only such a man could emotionally handle her.
If, in Loraine's parlance, a man wants "a woman who admires [him] as a man for being sexually voracious too, instead of shunning [his] sexual appetite as some kind of unhealthy fixation", he must also realize that such a woman will want to be with a man who admires and cherishes her for the same reasons. Otherwise, he's just a fool.
I dunno, seems to me as if girls who work for JM, for example, more or less do anything for money, whether it's sucking cum out of another girl's pussy using a straw or getting their asses ripped apart.
I was just reacting to what Loraine wrote above. The Prostitute is already the living embodiment of every man's sexual fantasy. Porn is just access to The Prostitute...a medium...a live sex show without the live. $5 for 5 days instead of $200 for 2 hours.
Brother meeshka, despite your "gutter whore" insult, I think you've stated my point better than I have:
Porn = The Limitless Sex Partner = Prostitution => Having no limits does not lend itself to a positive fantasy.
The insects who pester pornstars buzzing "Anal! DP! Chokefuck!" want to act upon, but don't want to be acted upon. They want to violate, but not be violated. In my own sex life, I have only given my anal blossom to men and women who were willing to give up their own. Saying that to an anal sex begger shuts him up real quick.
...or it opens up a whole new world. My name is "Peg" and I'll be your tour guide, honey.
BustdownGal wrote:I suggest the following alternative possibility:
Porn = The Limitless Sex Partner = (in real life) The Open, Adventurous, and Avid Sex Partner => Sexual openness, adventurousness, and avidity lend themselves to a positive fantasy.
Yeah, that's the problem.In some cases, no doubt -- but I don't believe that "violation" is central to most of these fantasies, even among the extreme pesterers.Sounds sensible to me. I, for one, wouldn't expect it, wouldn't want it, to be any other way.This is what it's all about -- or should be.
Whoa this topic is getting more and more fascinating!I disagree with your generalization that porn is about women not having the final say on sexual consent. I can't bring myself to generalize men as violators, forcing through without the consent of partners. I would rephrase your words to say that in porn, the conceit is not that the male is forcing, but that the female is willing. The Porn Star consents to all, as opposed to having all "forced" upon her. There are videos that play with nonconsensual sex, but 1) it's play and 2) it's not the general thrust of the industry. This thread is about the fantasy of the Limitless Woman, not the woman whose limits get trampled on and overrun.
But the "Limitless Woman" is the generalized point of view from within porn scenes. Do, Lazerus, you mean that the porn viewer doesn't "need" a *live* woman to "have" a woman because he can rent a pseudo-woman on DVD anytime? Is that the absence of consent you're speaking of?
That's a statement with a lot of layers. I disagree with the "women make the rules" statement, of course. I think it's a lazy, adolescent way of thinking. If women make the rules, how come so many more of us are anorgasmic than men? If women made the rules, then a woman's orgasm would be the defining moment of every sex session, not a man's.
But guess what, the male orgasm is the defining moment in *both* Pornography *and* in real life (for many many many couples.) The clitoris is given less than its needed 15 minutes of attention in *both* Pornography *and* real life.
So don't tell me that Pornography "reverses" the rules of life. It reinforces them. A pornstar may get 1000 fans asking her to do circus acts, but we girlfriends and wives have had at least 1 begging and pleading over and over. "It won't hurt baby!" "Just relax your muscles, baby!" "Just let me put my thumb in!" "It won't sting your eyes...that much."
In real life, the real rules are not "Oh, those powerful women have all the pussy and I can't get any wah wah wah!"
The rules have always been crystal clear. Millions of dudes are just too motherfucking lazy to follow them:
THE RULZ FOR BOYFRIENDS AND HUSBANDS: *Wash your ass. *Wash the goddamn dishes. *Wash the goddamn kids. *Help me run this goddamn house. *Get up off your lazy ass. *Don't insult me then expect me to suck yer dick. *Get a job. *Get up off me when I need my space. *Expend some time and effort to make me feel important. *Treat me as you expect yourself to be treated.
THE RULZ FOR SINGLE DUDES: *Do NOT! insult me after I say no to your advances. A bitch might've changed her mind later, bro. I cannot count how many times I've hooked up with dudes who I said "no" to when they first approached me. But I damn sure didn't hook up with any of the knuckleheads who copped a major fuckin' 'tude just cuz I rebuffed their shiny asses.
*Be real with yourself about how you look to others. You don't have to lift a single weight to get dates. You just got to get rid of them taped-up glasses, that Members Only jacket, and that "I'm in denial about how this shit looks" haircut.
*For every whiny "I can't get a girl" guy out there, there is a woman who has had a crush on you but you didn't know it. I swear this on my life, fellas. Even at your nerdiest/fattest/meanest, there's been some woman who wanted to get to know you better but you didn't realize. Or you realized and didn't do anything about because she was too nerdy/fat/mean for you.
I agree with Bob's assessment of frustration leading to acting out voyeuristic control. But to anyone's who's doing that, I say, "You feel out of control in your *own* life for some reason. Fix *that*."
If you're getting a lot of NO's, you've got to stop being lazy and start doing what these women are telling you you need to do. Do you talk too much? Stop talking too much! Do you wear too much cologne? Stop it! Do you get too nervous around girls you don't know? Start going out with friends! Do you reveal too much on the first date? Shut the fuck up!
I hate the "I can't get no pussy" whiners. Because after a certain age or a certain number of rejections, a motherfucker should've learned to start listening to why these women were saying "No." That's what gets me angry. These whiners get no pussy...and they don't change. They complain but do nothing about it.
And the "my wife won't let me in her ass" whiners...well tough titty. I'm sure you don't give her everything she wants either.
The director and consumer are in control of every porn scene. 70/30 director/consumer.
Between the performers in a scene...What is the "power"? The power to do what one wants? The power to have an orgasm? The power to say "no" to something uncomfortable?
Selena Silver used to talk about this. Every time I bugged her with one of my "What's so appealing about (name your sex act)" questions, she'd remind me that it all comes down to the fantasy of a woman that "will do anything." Take gagging for instance. She maintained that it's not so much the gagging itself, but rather the signal that the girl has tried and reached her absolute physical limit. It's the spirit behind the act, not so much the act itself.
It's funny because the women that do these things are considered submissive. Yes, they're submissive in the academic sense, in that they'll submit to any and all kinds of sex acts and humiliations. But they're also incredibly tough. They're strong and they're brave. The women that refuse to do such acts are strong and brave, too. They put up with all manner of pressure because they stand their ground. That takes a lot of integrity, especially when there's so much money to be made.
Topping from the bottom ... that's all the best porn performers from Bella on down the line ... (Also, as a 30-year veteran of porn viewing, there are DOZENS of "crazy babes" afoot and a-gag and agog in porn these days. I think the fanboys have gotten spoiled. Once upon a time, there was only Debbie Diamond ...)
As for lists of rules, my "rule" has always been if you even have to lay them out (or if they are laid out to you) you're with the wrong person and it's time to move on ... Rules are for children.
Right on Pagoda. You nailed it. Part of the appeal of doing any sex act is how much it pleases your partner. Be that partner your husband or a DVD-watcher.
In the world of BDSM, the sub is the true bearer of strength. The sub is the ox, the strong back that bears the weight of punishment. The best subs are the ones with the strongest will, who ask for another when the Dom's arm is so tired that she can't give another.
Being able to bear the big brunt is a sublime form of strength. To have such a strong will that you can't be broken no matter what is done to your body...it's inspiring. Watching someone like Belladonna, I've teared up because I see the positions she's in and the poundings she takes and I know first-hand how hard it is to do some of the physical acts she does. And then she fucking smiles. What a talented performer. I admire her utterly.
Oh, this is the best rant I've read in a long time. You're my kind of girl, BustDownGal! You're even harsher than I am. Cool.
Remember that most porn viewers don't participate in a forum like this. They see what they see in porn, and that's about as far as they think about it. Bob, Skronk, BSD and the other wonderful ADT men who actually recognize the humanity in performers, also seem to recognize the humanity of all women, including their significant others and the women they date.
I think women give men a bad rap sometimes because they don't know or execute the RULZ you listed. Some off them have never been told straight-up what their women want. Women expect men to be mind-readers, and when they're not, they give them a rash of shit for it. The "will do anything" porn girl complies with ever demand, and she clearly and outrageously states her own demands. There's no ambiguity. You can see how a man might find this type of female icon appealing. She's so refreshing, so accomodating, and so uncomplicated.
It's useful to realize that some of these porn girls "testing" their limits only do so because there's an extra $500 offered. And what happens on camera stays on camera. I prefer the performers who are genuinely exploring something and using porn as a route to what may be trickier to achieve in their private life. And, hey, get paid well for what is, at the basic level, equivalent to a pro or Olympic athlete whose body is an instrument. If they own the experience, then I have no bad feelings about sharing it vicariously and making them an (abstract) vessel of my pleasure. Unfortunately, there's not always a way to know, and sometimes the girls don't even know. If I was a chick, though, I'd love to have done some of the things Bella has done. And if I could become a cult hero doing so, and make enough to care for an extended family, then that's fantastic. Many Hollywood actresses will never be as lucky.
Then again, there's only ONE Belladonna, and 50 girls trying to be like her. But there are a LOT of girls watching her at home. I only need to meet ONE of them
But that's what the PornStar is...the woman who cooperates sexually for monetary reasons. And that's also what The Prostitute is. The fantasy that you, Bob, are looking for, is not where this thread began, I think. It began as equating the Pornstar with the male fantasy of the "Woman with No Limits." And I say the Pornstar is not a fantasy, but merely an openly-observable version of The Prostitute. When we watch the average porn, we are not seeing special effects. We are seeing what happens when a person does exactly what someone else wants them to do sexually in exchange for money. Porn is a reflection of prostitutional life moreso than a fantasy. Just like a Knicks game is more a reflection of basketball than a fantasy. And just like the Knicks are professionals who ball well, porn performers are professionals who fuck well.
Hmm...I guess my thinking is that we were speaking about porn as if it depicted unattainable fantasies. But it doesn't. Anything you see done in porn, you can get for $200. The Woman With No Limits exists, and she's standing in a truck stop parking lot waiting for you. I want us to not pretend that this is a woman who doesn't exist. The Prostitute is a pornstar without a camera.
Here's my undercurrent: You can't have a Limitless Woman without some level of servitude. You can't imagine another human being who will do whatever *you* want them to do without that human being losing their agency on some level.
Imagine yourself married to Belladonna. She is the Woman With no Limit. She'll do whatever you want sexually. Toss your salad. Bring home 5 girls for an orgy. Put her legs behind her head and let your intramural soccer team fuck her. High fives all around.
But then you have a fight about leaving the toilet seat up. She's mad at you, but you wanna fuck. Uh-oh. What do you do? Ya see, a director or a john or a pimp can compel a Limitless Woman to give up a small to big portion of her agency and fuck when she doesn't want to. Be it for money or in order to not get smacked. You can't. Unless you become one of the 3. Turning the Limitless Woman...into The Prostitute. QED.
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the unknown pervert Deactivated User
I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch. 3243 Posts 5/06
Posted - Aug 9 2006 : 5:31PM
The only problem I have with this is you have to remember not all women want the same thing. What is too much cologne or gab for woman may not be enough for another.
BustdownGal wrote:You just arrived on this message board -- but I have to tell you that the equating of porn performers with prostitutes has been argued to death on this message board. Not only do I think the assertion is disrespectful to a large and valued contingent of ADT members -- I also think it's dead wrong.I'm not "looking for" a fantasy in this thread -- I'm trying to identify a fantasy that I **believe** underlies a good deal of porn viewing by men.No. Actually it began with the idea that the pornstar, in character, in scene, often conjures the fantasy of the "Woman with No Limits" by enacting scenarios depicting the woman with extremely flexible limits.
The next (but only implicit, not fully articulated) premise of mine has been that some fans can't separate (1) the pornstar from the scene/character; and/or (2) the pornstar from the real woman who "constructs" the pornstar persona.
Don't get confused about my intentions -- I'm not looking to have a Limitless Woman. The fact is, a human being with no limits is both impossible and deeply frightening. As Lindi observed, we're defined as much by our limits and boundaries as by our passions and sympathies.Your scenario is wrong (although it neatly serves your conclusion).
First, I don't think Bella gives up her "agency", her self-determination, to anyone.
Second, the notion of forcing Bella to have sex against her will is not part of the overarching fantasy I've described. That fantasy -- however divorced from reality it may be -- requires the woman's authentic consent on a deep and fundamental level.
In fact, most of the pestering (however extreme) clearly evidences (and presupposes) the desire for the performer's consent -- else why pester her for something to watch, rather than pay an escort for something to do? However annoying he is, the typical pestering fanboy desperately wants the pornstar to want to do the sex act in question, not simply to do it because she's been forced.
Posted - Aug 8 2006 : 11:10AM
