Tom Byron

Forgive my departure from my usual decorum.

Quaze

Edited by - Mike Quasar on 8/22/2003 11:41:35 PM

Edited by - Mike Quasar on 8/22/2003 11:42:10 PM

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What if it was part of Ashcroft and Company's strategy all along to initiate their attack on the porn industry by going after a man who not only produced some of the most vile porn imaginable, but a man who is also so widely despised within his own industry, that very few people in his industry would be willing to come to his aid (financially or otherwise)? This would greatly increase the Government's chances of securing a conviction of Rob Black (and Lizzy Borden), since the defendants' financial resources are somewhat limited, while the Government's financial resources are much more substantial.

In other words, Mike Quasar, you could be playing right into the Government's hands, even though in doing so, you might be securing your own future demise in the porn industry. Even you yourself have acknowledged that this is a distinct possibility.

Yes, Rob Black is an utterly reprehensible character. Yes, he has thumbed his nose at his own industry and maliciously hurt a lot of people. Yet, Mike Quasar, I think it was Benjamin Franklin who said: "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." Hating Rob Black and refusing to come to his aid, plays right into the Government's hands, and could help plant the seeds of your own destruction.

I think EagleSpirit's idea is a good one. He's seeing the bigger picture without letting personal likes or dislikes enter the equation. If a fund could be set up whereby the money would be tightly controlled so that it could only be used for its intended purpose, then I think that would greatly improve the chances of the entire porn industry to weather the coming prosecutorial storm.

Btw, I know of the pre-existing organization in the porn industry that is supposed to carry out this function, but I have heard nothing but bad things about that organization and don't trust it.

Pontus

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Edited by - Mike Quasar on 8/23/2003 1:53:33 AM

Edited by - Mike Quasar on 8/23/2003 1:54:15 AM

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And now let's do the predictable thing and fight amongst ourselves while the Government plots the destruction of the porn industry.

PM

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The goverment could have went after Extreme much earlier but I suspect the timing has a lot more to do with political motivations than the industry's general disdain for Rob Black.

Just to play Devil's advocate here: What happens if a huge multi-million dollar defense fund is found sitting at the end of the rainbow? Rob could then afford the best lawyers money can buy. He might even win. What then? Does he become the industry's hero and champion of the First Amendment?

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Edited by - Drew Black on 8/23/2003 3:04:43 AM

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With all due respect Jules, it's quite possible that NO ONE would be the target. Rob Black sent out invitations for this indictment.

I support him because I have to.

Quaze

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The "new law" and potential for precedent comes into play when the court decides if a few minute segment of a video distributed electronically over the internet constitutes an entire work. It will be interesting to see how they apply the set of obscenity tests for these items.

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BTW, I'm not sure how much "taxpayer" money still flows into the USPS unless you consider postage stamps to be a tax.

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The beauty of a legal defense fund is that no one is forced to give if they don't want to. And of those who choose to give, they decide on the amount they give. Would you contribute a dollar? The size of the donations could vary greatly, dictated by the financial means and commitment of each contributor, but if enough people contributed, the final amount raised could be substantial. The more financial backing Rob Black has, the greater the odds that he will prevail. He's not my hero. Personally, I despise him and have for years. However, I'm thinking of the welfare of the porn industry, not the welfare of Rob Black.

Pontus

Edited by - Pontus Maximus on 8/23/2003 4:32:57 AM

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Pontus

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I'm not exactly sure how to establish the fund either, but I have nothing to lose trying. I've been involved in this kinda stuff before but this would definately be a new endeavor. If anybody else who is experienced wants to step up to the plate I am 100% behind them. If not I will do this on my own. I have addressed this issue more than once and have recieved very little response. I am not sure if people are afraid to talk about it for fear that they may become the next target or if they just don't care.

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EagleSpirit, although I admire you for being willing to step up to the plate and take this on yourself, I believe that to pull this off really would take the kind of person that I described in a previous post. Such a person would be able to quickly set up such a fund, have it properly administered, and have the wherewithal to promote it widely and effectively to potentially millions of people (porn industry types and porn fans alike).

Pontus

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For years, industry people have tried to get him to calm down and his attitude was "Fuck You". I think that's coming back to haunt him now.

I agree that his conviction will lead to other prosecutions. However, I don't think tht it will lead to other successful prosecutions. The stuff being prosecuted can't be compared to other product on the market on an apples to apples basis.

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With respect to setting up a legal defense fund I recommend that you contact Rob Black directly. That would be the most effective way to get things rolling if you're so inclined. I think that Extreme may already have something in the works.

It's fairly easy to set up a form to accept donations through Paypal.

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I agree with Bill and Drew. This might be a blow for our fellow porn-hounds in that locale, but, unless my understanding of the Supreme Court ruling is wrong, it doesn't make an ipso facto case for the material being obscene anywhere else.

I'm sure the government hopes for a chilling effect and also expects to attempt further prosecutions. The thing I doubt is whether their failure to win this one will deter them from the next one. However, the important issue in this trial is the distribution of video clips via the Internet. As Drew suggests, that could truly be precedent setting. Personally, I think it would take a very poor attorney or a very stacked deck to lose that count.

In other words, Rob Black really can "go fuck himself" if the rest of the industry and, more importantly, the distributors are prepared to thumb their noses at the government's attempt to buffalo them.

Personally, I would like to see the industry band together to sue the federal government for restraint of trade and harassment. There's a little known clause in NAFTA that would be perfect if the industry operated in Canada instead of the US. Still, they might win big even as it is.

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Ron

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Ron

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I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal
lobotomy.

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Any fund set up for contributions by porn consumers (to whom Black reportedly refers as "marks") would, at best, amount to a drop in the bucket. The monies might well also mysteriously end up diverted to fund wrestling promotions or some such thing.

The only person I can think of who would have the resources to subsidize a defense, and at least possibly the inclination to do so, would be Larry Flynt. It would be very interesting to know who wrote the check for Black's lawyer's undoubtedly sizeable retainer fee.

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They don't like Rob or Extreme Associates (EA, not EE), but they know that Extreme needs to win this case.

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Another reason why it was likely to be PA, and not another state is because Extreme Associates says on their web site that they can't legally ship to a P.O. box in a lot of states, but PA is not among them. The case got started when the Postal Inspector ordered the 5 videos and had them shipped to a Western PA P.O. box, as described in the indictment/warrent.

Having read through the entire indictment, including the detailed decriptions of scenes in the 5 videos, I have two main thoughts on all this. Four of the videos sound disgusting and in poor taste, but it is debatable whether they meet the legal requirements of obscene material.

However, "Forced Entry" is for me in another category. Black/Bordan chose to recreate the crimes of the actual rapist/murderer Richard Ramirez, who is now on death row in California for committing 13 murders in the mid 1980's. They chose to "spice" up the story by adding a variety of sex acts to this work of art, and then to sell it for anyone's sexual gratification. They had an actor in the film shout out "Richard Ramirez, you are my idol."

It is bad enough for the family members of Ramirez's victims to have to live through their ordeal. To have Black/Borden profiting from their misery is reprehensible, and I'd like to see how they defend this in court.

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I, for one, am sending my check to the ACLU.

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