Top Ten Rules for Porn Beginners (page 2)

Author	Post
BlackSix All-Star Member pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07	Posted - Dec 19 2010 : 1:37PM jayo wrote: My point is that I agree with people who say the "Golden Age" is overrated in terms of quality production. I think the Golden Age is just an indication of what to expect at the time: more of an emphasis on blowjobs, more pubic hair, etc. I don't think the quality was better overall, either as a percentage of output or any other measure. I think "Golden" gives people inaccurate expectations. Click to expand Well of course 'Golden Age' is a bit silly, like the 'Golden Age' of sf. But I do think that the bestfeatures of that era are superior to the best features of today. Gonzo is so different in approach and technique, comparing it to features is difficult. [Link]
john lyons Senior Member Co-founder of Vinegar Syndrome 1188 Posts 1/08	Posted - Dec 19 2010 : 2:30PM jayo wrote: BlackSix wrote: So what? The majority of films and novels are less-than-great as well. You judge a genre by its highest achievements not its lowest. Click to expand My point is that I agree with people who say the "Golden Age" is overrated in terms of quality production. I think the Golden Age is just an indication of what to expect at the time: more of an emphasis on blowjobs, more pubic hair, etc. I don't think the quality was better overall, either as a percentage of output or any other measure. I think "Golden" gives people inaccurate expectations. Click to expand Well, by volume of output, the "golden age" is still far superior to today in terms of quality filmmaking and high production values. I'd estimate that 25% of XXX features (not one-day-wonders) produced between 1970 and 1986 are good to great and then another 15% are acceptable and the other 60% suck. For stuff produced between 1987 and today, maybe 2% is good to great, another 5% is acceptable and a whopping 93% suck. The reason is that less real filmmakers are making XXX films these days, very few "features" actually have anything more than a scant story structure and non existent production values, and the pure volume of feature length product being made today is far greater than ever before. [Link]
kaiser1one Member Dark Avatar 142 Posts 10/07	Posted - Dec 19 2010 : 2:38PM Why did you sensor out child pornography???? It's not like it's a curse word. [Link]
charn fubar 2880 Posts 12/09	Posted - Dec 19 2010 : 3:54PM BustdownGal wrote: There's lots of porn previews/trailers available from sites like EvilAngel.com, AskJolene.com and FreeOnes.com. And, of course, right here on ADT. In today's world you don't have to waste money paying for pornos you end up not liking. You can watch free previews of the parts of the movie that the director thinks is the best. Heed, though: for some reason many porn previews are better made than the porno itself. The editing and music is much tighter and fast-paced. Some of these previews have the quality of a TV commercial! But then the movie turns out to be the same old point-and-shoot porno. If the whole video was as good as the preview...well, that would be one hot video but it would probably only last 10 minutes. But it'd be so hot I wouldn't need more than 10 minutes. =) Click to expand This is the only part I disagree with completely. Most trailers are much worse than the actual video. [Link]

BlackSix All-Star Member pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07	Posted - Dec 19 2010 : 4:17PM kaiser1one wrote: Why did you sensor out child pornography???? It's not like it's a curse word. Click to expand In general it's not a good idea to type out CP on any forum as it can attract the wrong kind of attention. [Link]
Jacco All-Star Member "liable to deprave and corrupt" 2673 Posts 5/04	Posted - Dec 19 2010 : 5:02PM Gore Gore Girl wrote: ^ Y'know, one of the things that bugs me the most about those I have butted heads with over the years in academic circles/those who read academic books is that they strongly believe porn should be judged by its lowest common denominator. It's so frustrating. Every other genre or medium being studied is permitted and encouraged to be analyzed according to its finest examples, but if I put forth some fine examples of porn, they say "that's the exception that proves the rule!" Click to expand Well, in my experience SF&F suffers from the same problem, the commenters always dreg out the crap to prove their point. And my answer is always to quote Sturgeon's Law. Jacco [Link]
BlackSix All-Star Member pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07	Posted - Dec 19 2010 : 5:35PM Bert Piel wrote: LOL! Another Kardashians fan. They are freaking everywhere! Click to expand Does anyone know what the hell this post means? [Link]
skronker Notable Legendary Icon Scopophiliac 9780 Posts 9/02	Posted - Dec 19 2010 : 6:23PM Gore Gore Girl wrote: ^ I bought Score literally ten minutes ago! Click to expand Podcast with Radley: Score! Yeah, I need to get my hands on that, too. Lovely gent, Mr. Metzger. [Link]
john lyons Senior Member Co-founder of Vinegar Syndrome 1188 Posts 1/08	Posted - Dec 19 2010 : 7:00PM BlackSix wrote: Bert Piel wrote: LOL! Another Kardashians fan. They are freaking everywhere! Click to expand Does anyone know what the hell this post means? Click to expand Yeah, definitely confusing. [Link]
BustdownGal Member 539 Posts 7/06	Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 12:23AM "To soften my edges let me state that I love pornography and some of my favorites are pornos you guys have listed above. But having battled on the front line (working with porn consumers) I had to become efficient and effective with this very question. The factor that we porn-lovers have to remember is that the porn newbie is coming from a world in which she conceptualizes "movie" as "a filmed story that took 5 years, 50 million dollars and a staff of 250 people to make." Even some indie movies (which take "only" 2 years, $500,000, and 50 people to make) get looked down at sometimes because there's no celebrities or it's not made by Pixar. I realize that you don't need all the above to tell a good story. Theatre proves that every day. But to do it on film adds a set of needed skills, and performing sex adds yet another set of needed skills. Creating art in the form of team storytelling just takes a lot of skills, and one can't underestimate the resources needed to pull that off. It's tempting to believe it's easy to make a good movie because we have access to so many. But it's not easy. So people actually have a valid point when they scoff at comparing a Wicked movie [or a Golden Age Classic] to a Darren Aronofsky movie. Pornographers concentrate on what we're good at: being sexual exhibitionists and exhibitors. This is a skill too that shouldn't be underestimated. So when I say it's tough to compare mainstream movies and porn, it's coming from a place of loving both, and appreciating the artisans in both. I also appreciate the skills of everyone involved in broadcasting a football game to my living room. But that is yet another form of entertainment that is separate from porn or mainstream movies. So comparing is like...oh...what do you call it when you compare 2 things that are in the same greater category but different subcategories? Ah yes! apples to oranges." [Link]
BustdownGal Member 539 Posts 7/06	Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 12:50AM I don't want new porn consumers to have "low" expectations. I want them to have the right ones. Especially non-traditional porn newbies (eg 28-year-old women, as opposed to the average porn newbie, which is a 13-year-old-boy sneaking it on the internet while his parents are at work.) My harshness about porn classics comes not from me but from consumers' harshness, which I'm relaying to you. Sure there's a customer for every type of video. But one issue that keeps coming up on the front line is the discrepancy between movies like Deep Throat and Behind the Green Door being on Top Porno Lists all over the place, and porn newbie's lack of being impressed with that product. This is what they report on the front line. Coincidentally enough, if you take VHS sales out and just count DVD sales, there's lots of Top-Selling lists floating around that include NO classics at all. (eg CNBC ) please don't get distracted talking about adult video sales rankings. I already know they're tricky and there's no single reliable source of info. Edited by - BustdownGal on 12/20/2010 12:53:57 AM [Link]
LilyLaBeau Member Your dirty girl, and your sick fantasy. 92 Posts 5/10	Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 6:06AM I'm not sure how this thread got started but I do like the initial rules mentioned in the beginning. Great starter guidlines for new porn viewers. [Link]
Jacco All-Star Member "liable to deprave and corrupt" 2673 Posts 5/04	Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 6:25AM Well, if I look at our retail sales for the last 5 years there are a lot of classics in the bestseller lists, but then again my customers are probably not your customers. Our best selling classic in that period is 'Little Girls Blue' and then 'Taboo' by the way, but the usual suspects are high on that list too. We get a lot of customer feedback and the classics are very highly rated. Jacco [Link]
T0MBOne Senior Member 1200 Posts 5/08	Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 9:46AM I've always made a connection between gonzo and reality television; you don't need scripts (or actors in the traditional sense) and it's cheap compared to the alternative that being a plot-driven film or series. Gonzo and reality TV even emerged at about the same time. So, I would imagine that it's a tough sell for Bustdown to recommend xxx classics to someone raised on these reality shows and/or only knows about porn in a gonzo sense, etc. And I would have a hard time recommending some of these lame xxx features that I've been recently reviewing, which only leaves some of the classics and a few (very few) newer features. [Link]

john lyons Senior Member Co-founder of Vinegar Syndrome 1188 Posts 1/08	Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 11:23AM BustdownGal wrote: The factor that we porn-lovers have to remember is that the porn newbie is coming from a world in which she conceptualizes "movie" as "a filmed story that took 5 years, 50 million dollars and a staff of 250 people to make." Even some indie movies (which take "only" 2 years, $500,000, and 50 people to make) get looked down at sometimes because there's no celebrities or it's not made by Pixar. I realize that you don't need all the above to tell a good story. Theatre proves that every day. But to do it on film adds a set of needed skills, and performing sex adds yet another set of needed skills. Creating art in the form of team storytelling just takes a lot of skills, and one can't underestimate the resources needed to pull that off. It's tempting to believe it's easy to make a good movie because we have access to so many. But it's not easy. So people actually have a valid point when they scoff at comparing a Wicked movie [or a Golden Age Classic] to a Darren Aronofsky movie. Click to expand Thanks for replying. Here are a few thoughts on your thoughts: 1) You're right (and have been right all along) that people simply cannot expect to see something that looks like a $50,000,000 CGI-filled Hollywood bomb when they pop a flick like THE OPENING OF MISTY BEETHOVEN into their DVD player. However, if you (like many lovers/defenders of "classic porn") were a fan of equally low-budget exploitation cinema of the 70s, the aesthetic and production values are often very similar and the viewer will feel as much at home with Jamie Gillis on the screen rather than Rudy Ray Moore. 2) There's something that I call "the erotic assumption," which means that people view sexually explicit imagery only through the lens of "does this turn me on?" and if the answer is "no," they immediately dismiss the work as "bad" or a "failure." This is easily the greatest analytical failure that "porn" has essentially brought on itself, and mostly for good reason. 98% of sexually explicit movies are indeed designed to arouse someone, no more no less. They're not created with aesthetic value in mind, they're not constructed to resonate in the viewers mind, fill them with questions and pounding thoughts. And this is the problem with how so many people view "classic porn." They see a low budget film, often with some sub-par acting that, inexplicably (to them) has a story, dialogue, characters, sex scenes which develop the characters and enhance the narrative, and they get confused. They think "why is all this time being wasted on plot when there could be more fucking?" So, as people so often do when they don't understand things, they dismiss them, or try to look for any other shortcoming so that they don't need to think about what they don't understand. What's more, is that if they find the sex unarounsing, strange or even repugnant, they immediately write off the film as "bad" because it seemingly clashes with what "porn is supposed to do: turn you on. But who says that is what it's all supposed to do? Why can't a filmmaker be subversive or use the medium to fit his or her unique views on the subject? That's what you'll find when you look at movies by the best directors from "the golden age;" films by filmmakers who subverted the assumptions of the sex-film genre. 3) In all commercial cinema, there must be a "commercial scene." This means that there must be some part of the film which satisfies the expectations of the viewer and makes them believe that they've spent their money well. In action films, it's the big action set-piece (i.e. the 10 minute chase scene, a huge fight scene or shootout, etc.), in horror films it's the act of on-screen killing or a final showdown between the killer and their last would-be victim; hell, even romance films are chock full of "commercial scenes," every time something dramatic happens in the featured relationship. So, as a commercial cinema genre, the X rated feature must too have "commercial scenes," in this case: the sex scene. Sex scenes exist for the same reason huge explosions do in action films. To make people excited; to make them feel like they've gotten what they came for. But just because a film is pandering to commercialism doesn't mean it has no substantive value behind it, and I think people ought to dig a bit deeper before they dismiss an entire era or genre of cinema. 4) Lists suck. Best-of lists suck even more because they're dictated by what sells rather than what's good (usually you get one good movie for every 20 popular and shitty ones). XXX best-of lists are the worst because, sadly, most consumers of XXX have absolutely no tastes and just wanna jerk off. So, looking at the lists you posted, the only one which is feature-heavy is the AVN list, which does include some good movies, but then again, AVN has never been known for their artistic sensibilities. This begs the question: since they suck, why the hell do people keep watching/talking about DEBBIE DOES DALLAS and DEEP THROAT? The answer is two very simply words: they're famous. Nothing more, nothing less. However, since you posted these lists, I'll recommend you the best off two as well as point out some of the more overrated "classics": Best from Gamelink The Opening of Misty Beethoven Cafe Flesh Bad Wives Devil In Miss Jones Blue Movies Naked Came the Stranger (that makes 6 great films out of 100) Best from AVN Nothing to Hide Misty Beethoven (again) Cafe Flesh (again) Sex World Devil in Miss Jones (again) 3 A.M. Resurrection of Eve Ecstasy Girls Blue Movie (again) Amanda By Night Naked Came the Stranger (again) (that makes 11 great films out of 100) As you can see, the lists aren't indicators of quality, but rather of popular taste, and in XXX, that's dangerous. Gotta head out now, but I'll post more later... [Link]
Gore Gore Girl Doctor of the Erotic Arts 7238 Posts 1/09	Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 12:35PM ^ Great point regarding intention/arousal. I think it's very important to not go in the opposite direction, though, and regard physical arousal as a simplistic process. Often if something is sexually arousing, the same thing happens: it is dismissed. It is presumed not to be a valuable work because arousal is not seen as important/valuable/complex. Sexual arousal is very complex and intersects with many other feelings, and in this way I don't think traditional linear narrative films are the only genre of "good" porn. [Link]
john lyons Senior Member Co-founder of Vinegar Syndrome 1188 Posts 1/08	Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 3:23PM Gore Gore Girl wrote: ^ Great point regarding intention/arousal. I think it's very important to not go in the opposite direction, though, and regard physical arousal as a simplistic process. Often if something is sexually arousing, the same thing happens: it is dismissed. It is presumed not to be a valuable work because arousal is not seen as important/valuable/complex. Sexual arousal is very complex and intersects with many other feelings, and in this way I don't think traditional linear narrative films are the only genre of "good" porn. Click to expand Right as always. Sexual arousal is as complex and valid an emotional response as anything else. It's often written off as too visceral or "basic" to warrant any proper discussion. But sexuality is probably the most complex and frightening human emotion, which is why it isn't discussed often enough or treated with enough respect, intellectually. Filmmakers who explore, as opposed to exploit, sexuality are very few and, contrary to what most people might assume, most of those filmmakers have worked in X rated films. It's often Hollywood which makes a mockery or taboo subject out of the complexities of sexuality, which some sex filmmakers treat it with respect and genuine intellectual curiosity. And, no, narrative films are not the only "good" genre of hardcore. In fact, one of my favorite XXX filmmakers of the 80s is Kim Christy, who made nearly abstract loop carries; her masterpiece being 1986's SQUALOR MOTEL. [Link]
BustdownGal Member 539 Posts 7/06	Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 3:25PM thank you john lyons (any relation to mlyons?). I agree with so much of what you've said. Yes, those classics are FAMOUS. When it comes to pop culture, you have to have some popularity to be noticed. Popularity breeds popularity. When pop culture talks about porn, they talk about classics still. This is because the classics are the only ones that have sold a million copies. The CNBC list included the sales numbers for the titles, and those are piss-poor compared to the sales of even the most unpopular mainstream movies. And when pop culture talks about these classics, people buy them and the cycle continues. But the porn industry is different. Its model is based on a company shipping a million units with 100 titles, instead of the mainstream model of shipping a million units with 1 or 2 titles. No porn film will ever get the chance to ship as many units as an Inception or a Toy Story 3, so no individual porn film will get the chance to breach pop culture's radar until it's been around 20 years, after which it will have had the time to ship a million units. Of course by the time Pirates or Fashionistas ships a million units, videos won't be shipped anymore. But porn does have our star system going for us. While Jenna Jameson may not have any individual porn titles that have shipped millions, her total catalog has caused millions of tapes and DVDs and downloads to be delivered. She has burst the ceiling and is now part of mainstream pop culture. She is the reference joke writers go to when they want to talk about porn. Or Sasha Grey if their audience is "the young people," as it were. [Link]
john lyons Senior Member Co-founder of Vinegar Syndrome 1188 Posts 1/08	Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 4:03PM BustdownGal wrote: thank you john lyons (any relation to mlyons?). I agree with so much of what you've said. Click to expand No relation, sorry. John Lyons isn't exactly my real name (nor the name I use on the sex films I make; yes, I do work is this squalid "industry"). Yes, those classics are FAMOUS. When it comes to pop culture, you have to have some popularity to be noticed. Popularity breeds popularity. When pop culture talks about porn, they talk about classics still. This is because the classics are the only ones that have sold a million copies. The CNBC list included the sales numbers for the titles, and those are piss-poor compared to the sales of even the most unpopular mainstream movies. And when pop culture talks about these classics, people buy them and the cycle continues. Click to expand Right. The films that "made the news," so to speak, were THROAT, DEVIL, DEBBIE, and DOOR. However, what gets talked about doen't necessarily deserve the hype. But just because the crap makes the news (not that DEVIL or DOOR are crap) doesn't mean that all XXX films from the 70s/early 80s ought to be dismissed. That's where I initially took issue with your statement. And in terms of boxoffice, XXX films were often amongst the top grossing films the weeks of their release, with some staying in the top 50 highest grossing films for months. But the porn industry is different. Its model is based on a company shipping a million units with 100 titles, instead of the mainstream model of shipping a million units with 1 or 2 titles. No porn film will ever get the chance to ship as many units as an Inception or a Toy Story 3, so no individual porn film will get the chance to breach pop culture's radar until it's been around 20 years, after which it will have had the time to ship a million units. Of course by the time Pirates or Fashionistas ships a million units, videos won't be shipped anymore. But porn does have our star system going for us. While Jenna Jameson may not have any individual porn titles that have shipped millions, her total catalog has caused millions of tapes and DVDs and downloads to be delivered. She has burst the ceiling and is now part of mainstream pop culture. She is the reference joke writers go to when they want to talk about porn. Or Sasha Grey if their audience is "the young people," as it were. Click to expand "Porn" today v. the X rated cinema of 25+ years ago is a very different animal. We can't compare the marketing and release strategy for theatrically exhibited films to direct to video productions. The way DTV companies market their releases is closer to how other products like books and records get sold. Different than playing a movie in a theatre. [Link]
BustdownGal Member 539 Posts 7/06	Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 9:24PM a nicer, though less helpful, version of my rules [Link]
MLyons Senior Member 1617 Posts 8/02	Posted - Feb 3 2011 : 4:46PM I'm late to the party, but my ears were burning... :) I must say, this is a topic I certainly would have weighed in more heavily on in my "early" days, but eh... Now it's just too much thinkin' for no real payoff. :) Unless you're making money with it, analyzing porn just seems to introduce more problems than it solves. I will say that porn is still a part of my life (although quite a bit lessened than it used to be), but my engagement with it has been and will ever be only about one thing: Does it turn me on? Call me one of the simpletons, but hey... the more deeply you try to understand what goes into creating something that "turns people on" the more you realize you've wasted your time and part of your life trying to know the unknowable. Porn producers who actually care about creating something other than a paycheck are in a real pickle these days. They have to work within an increadibly rigid system that has been refined and engineered to run like a German factory. There's no room for experimentation or re-evaluation. There's no economic model in porn production that allows you to "get it right". Instead, all you can really do is "get it done" and hope you touched on something special along the way. This lack of vision and flexibility is sad to be sure, but hey... that's porn. The only thing as powerful as the producer's desire for the all mighty dollar is the consumer's desire for the all mighty orgasm. Until you can mitigate both those factors and break the cycle, porn will be what it always has been: on the fringe, underfunded, and only ever concerned with those two things. And what might be even more sad is I believe I might be one of those who think that's exactly what porn SHOULD be. Did it turn me on? Yes? Mission accomplished. Now I can go do something productive :) Happy new year, everyone! Mike L. (Not my real name either...) :) Edited by - MLyons on 2/3/2011 4:49:06 PM [Link]
BustdownGal Member 539 Posts 7/06	Posted - Feb 3 2011 : 9:20PM MLyons! good to read from you after all this time. SueR [Link]
skronker Notable Legendary Icon Scopophiliac 9780 Posts 9/02	Posted - Feb 3 2011 : 10:00PM MLyons!! Good to see you here again. (And send me your info if you'd be so kind ... I feel bad for having been out of touch so long) Edited by - skronker on 2/3/2011 10:02:43 PM [Link]
BustdownGal Member 539 Posts 7/06	Posted - Jul 14 2011 : 8:35AM lists don't suck. they rule. [Link]

dnice Member 798 Posts 12/09	Posted - Jul 14 2011 : 9:56AM even if you are an IR dodger one day in your career its gonna happen Janine julina ann big time chasey lain dyanna lauren and teri weigel etc [Link]