underage actresses

Author	Post
junglew Senior Member 1042 Posts 12/02	Posted - Aug 21 2007 : 10:04PM Just finished watching ABC News Now which is on ABC's Cable Network. They were discussing a new record keeping law passed by congress to put information about all adult performers in a database and if a an actress is not listed with all their info it requires 5 years in jail. Ron Jeremy, Paul Cambria [Attorney for Huster] and a US attorney, who was held over from the last topic, plus the host were discussing the topic. The US attorney who favors the law was taken aback by the inflamatory tone of the host. Paul Cambria mentioned that their were only 3 actresses underage in the 30 year history of porn. Of course everyone remembers Tracy Lords and I recall Alexandria Quinn. Does any know the third one? Ron mentioned that Tracy's documention also fooled the US goverment, when they gave her a passport under the name Tracy Lords. I recall then Attorney General Ashcroft lamenting after 9/11 that the FBi were not going to be able to go after porno because of those pesky terrorist who blew up the world trade center. He was all set to use the full power of the federal government to try and shut down porn but now they were going to have to use their resourses to fight terrorism. Lucky us. Wayne In Dallas [Link]
Jaktarn Senior Member 4798 Posts 5/05	Posted - Aug 23 2007 : 1:54AM I believe the third girl was Debi Diamond. Who was 17 at her first scene. [Link]
techie Member 62 Posts 4/05	Posted - Aug 23 2007 : 2:45AM I also seem to recall rumors about a black girl, but I can't remember her name. IIRC, she was only appeared in a couple films, probably abut 4-5 years ago. [Link]
Dean Wormer Senior Member Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son. 1048 Posts 7/04	Posted - Aug 23 2007 : 3:18AM I think the third girl was Kristara Barrington. Her scene in "Every Woman Has a Fantasy" was later edited out sometime around late 1986 or early 1987. [Link]
caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07	Posted - Aug 23 2007 : 5:33AM I think this is grossly overestimated. At least for the US market. Aside from illegal porn, I doubt that more as 10 "underagers" ( which means mostly 17 ) played in commercial porn. We in Europe have serious troubles with the 18 age limit, because we had lower minimum age in some countries for porn until 5 years ago. ( 15 and 16 ) 15 is rare, but 16 and especially 17 isnt. So there is a flood of "illegal" material. But most state authorities confiscate only material under 16 or under 15, dependent on the country. I think the 2257 regulations are strict enough - ( much too strict, in my opinion ), so this new law doesnt make sense and is only used to criminalize porn ( actors ). [Link]

RandomPrecision Senior Member Enjoy! 8175 Posts 3/06	Posted - Aug 23 2007 : 7:21AM If there are any underage performers working in the US at all, I'm sure it's not deliberate on the part of the studios. The only way I could see it happening is in a Tracy Lords sort of situation in which the girl faked her ID and lied about her age. The studios wouldn't touch a girl they even thought was underage with a 100 foot pole. This is bullshit. It's only purpose is to create more legal hoops for the industry to jump through and force them to spend more money. [Link]
Uncle Fester Deactivated User I rock, therefore I am! 131 Posts 6/07	Posted - Aug 24 2007 : 2:04PM I believe another underage performer from the 80's was Ali Moore. She did a scene with Ron Jeremy in WPINK that included a close up of her taking a Jeremy pop directly into her mouth. If I recall, she had glasses on for most of the scene also. Anyway, subsequent versions of the disc have her scene completely excised, thus indicating that she was underage. Damn, because she was SSSSWWWWWEEEEEEEEEETTTTTT! [Link]
junglew Senior Member 1042 Posts 12/02	Posted - Aug 24 2007 : 2:09PM caroline-NL, I am having trouble understanding some of your post. Do you mean that 3 girls is an underextimated figure rather than overeestimated one? I knew that the age of consent is lower in other countrys but since the us market is so large why make a major movie that cannot be distributed in the us. Probably some speciality films are made with under 18 girls and of course there is the illegaly stuff which I wouldn't touch with a 200 ft. pole. I have heard that Tracy's suff is legal in some countrys like Canada where it is grandfathered in. Wayne In Dallas [Link]
caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07	Posted - Aug 24 2007 : 5:25PM junglew wrote: caroline-NL, I am having trouble understanding some of your post. Do you mean that 3 girls is an underextimated figure rather than overeestimated one?" I wanted to say, that the whole "problem" isnt one - in the USA. I think there were more cases as 3, but slightly under a dozen. The new regulations are nonsense. And the whole problem is an overestimation. There isnt one. You dont need a law for ten cases, or ? "I knew that the age of consent is lower in other countrys but since the us market is so large why make a major movie that cannot be distributed in the us." Because the european / japanese market is and was large enough. But the production with 15-17 year old models is forbidden now, "thanks" to the US, who labels this as "childporn". I think 15 should be the lowest minimum age, but even if you think this is too low, this has absolutely nothing to do with childporn. And 16 and 17 year olds arent children, at least under european laws. US politicans had put enormous pressure on the dutch and the danish governments, to change this, so that they adapt the 2257 regulations. ( Its new to me, that the Netherlands are a part of the USA ?! ) "I have heard that Tracy's suff is legal" It isnt legal in most european countries any longer, but it isnt seizured also. Its in a strange gray area now. As is the older 16/17 material. You can still buy this in the NL/DK ( but please dont do this ! -its more as illegal under US laws ), but its not sure, how long this will be legal, or if it is still legal at all. It all depends on the arbitrariness of the authorities now. [Link]
RandomPrecision Senior Member Enjoy! 8175 Posts 3/06	Posted - Aug 24 2007 : 5:38PM And furthermore - if a girl fakes her ID and lies about her age - If it's an undetectable fake, how the fuck is this the industry's fault? [Link]
junglew Senior Member 1042 Posts 12/02	Posted - Aug 24 2007 : 7:51PM caroline-NL, thanks for clearing up your point. I am an American so I only speak one language. Someone doesn't have to speak or write perfect english for me. I welcome all people to get their ideas and opinions. Europe is much more enlighted in their views on sex. Most of your religious whacos came over her in the last 4 centuries and we are doing our best to tame them. I hear only 9% of French attend church at least once a week and over her it is still only 27%. Keep posting. Wayne In Dallas [Link]
Lance Member My Life Sucks 386 Posts 4/05	Posted - Aug 24 2007 : 9:25PM What I don't get, is the fair and balanced media is portraying this as a new law. It's not, Records have been needed and kept for longer than I've been alive. No legit company would shoot underage girls, period. The criminals making illegal videos don't keep records either so the way this law is enforced is only to harass the industry and force some people out of business. Like the need to have someone on staff 20 hours a week, just in case someone decides to inspect? PS, no you cannot get Tracy Lords vids in Canada, as has been alluded to. It has never been legal to shoot anyone under 18 here. In fact in some provinces it's tough to shoot until they are 19 as the girls may not be able to legally sign into a contract. www.makemoneyfucking.com [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 4:20AM Apparently in this post there are more than 3 US actresses who were suspected underage when they begun doing porn. About Europe to have underage girls on movies is one of the very few things forbidden in Italy's and France which are the most permissive Countries for Porn sales , Spain might be the same way but I don't know it for sure. I mean STRICTLY FORBIDDEN. It is true though that in Holland age of consent for free sex was 16 (maybe even less)including Porn , that's why many videos from Holland stated that all actresses and actors were of LEGAL AGE which could've meant anything , the EU forced the Nederland to raise the minimum age required to do porn at 18 and now it is stated that all actors and actresses were at least 18 years old when filming. Some of the older Seventeen's videos are unavailable some collection and reprints have been edited , there are flicks available only directly from Holland in streaming. Thay could have another cause though , they sold all their old material and maybe some of it had been lost , an acquantenance of mine was in Holland for job so went to buy some videos , he told me the mess was incredible they couldn't find any of the videos he wanted , some of them were declared lost or stored on HD. [Link]
Porn Scout Deactivated User 3735 Posts 10/02	Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 4:31AM What are the penalties for violations of the 2257 record keeping regulations? [Link]
Shagdog Member Houston 626 Posts 1/07	Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 6:20AM These rumors are heard by the christian right wing too. And are used to spur law enforcement into action. I think producers wanting to promote a film or actress start these rumors. I googled Kristara Barrington and Debi Diamond and didn’t find any mention of them working under age. During the last 2257 dust up I read an article on FYI that said it was a gay male porn star. The article mentioned the rumor involving the black girl but no one could find her or any proof it was true. I, like you can’t prove any of this to be true. This is not going to hurt existing porn companies at all. What this does is throw another “money” obstacle in the way of people trying to start a porn company. The business community has always used laws to put obstacle in way of new businesses. It won’t stop anyone from going into porn. [Link]

Dean Wormer Senior Member Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son. 1048 Posts 7/04	Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 6:50AM I was able to pull this off of RAME from about 6 years ago. The following is by a moderator named Frank Simmons. That would be me. There are probably numerous people who worked underage, especially in the 70s, but 4 are ther best known. Traci, of course, is the most famous example. Alexandra Quinn was the secondmost prolific underage performer, she did some 50 or so films when she was 17 - used the money she made to buy herself a boob job for her 18th birthday. Kristara Barrington made one or two movies when she was 17, "Every Woman Has A Fantasy" (which is available from many distributors, but her scenes are cut) and possibly "Women's Secret Desires". The latter is available uncut and is a girl-girl flick. It's copyright is 1993, and she turned 18 in November 1983, so it's possible it was made after her 18th birthday. Ali Moore also made two flicks when she was 17, "Love Bites" (with Traci) and "WPINK-TV" (which was shot a month before she turned.) Recently, one of the companies (Extreme?) pulled and rereleased a flick (Little Porn-A-Bees #2) because it was alleged that one of the actresses (called Sunshine, iirc) was underage.) Click to expand [Link]
ma meeshka Iconoclastic Member 3939 Posts 4/06	Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 7:17AM replies: 15 views: 1133 quite the popular topic to ogle. btw, it's traci lords, with an i. [Link]
sam46 Deactivated User 564 Posts 1/07	Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 7:45AM Even more bizarre, the topic "culos gigantis 3" had 4 replies, and 286 views. [Link]
Derek117 Senior Member 1605 Posts 1/06	Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 10:14AM Besides those mentioned, during the 1980s there were lots of rumors that some girls were underage when they shot their first scenes. Nikki Charm and Jamie Summers were often mentioned as girls who may have started porn before their 18th birthday, but the truth seems to be that they just looked so young that it caused people to talk. And I was never sure that Ali Moore ever shot porn when she was underage--but thought it may have been a rumor started to hurt her career. Ali could be the real bitch with co-stars and directors, and wasn't the most popular girl among performers. This kind of payback was not uncommon. BTW, I was underage in the late 1980s when I first started watching porn--I could even get into clubs to see pornstars feature dance when I was 16 yrs old. So, attempts to regulate age doesn't work with customers. Edited by - Derek117 on 8/25/2007 10:20:49 AM [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 1:51PM Also Tiny Tove was suspected to be underage at first but it had been proven she was well over eighteen she did her last flick at 21 , she did 14 flicks only and a bunch of photoshoot in a three years career , according to all sites and database dedicated to her, apparently only few of those flicks are still available at Color Climax Edited by - Laurie Cameron Fan on 8/25/2007 1:53:02 PM [Link]
caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07	Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 2:04PM @Cameron : "It is true though that in Holland age of consent for free sex was 16 (maybe even less)including Porn , that's why many videos from Holland stated that all actresses and actors were of LEGAL AGE" Yes, because the legal age was 16 until 1.Oct.2002, when § 240 was changed. "the EU forced the Nederland to raise the minimum age required to do porn at 18" Thats not exact, the EU was forced to change this, because US governments forced the EU to raise age. This even goes back to Ronald Reagan. Many documents prove this - and the "european" 18 law is the EXACT - word by word - translation of sec. 2257 "they sold all their old material and maybe some of it had been lost , an acquantenance of mine was in Holland for job so went to buy some videos , he told me the mess was incredible they couldn't find any of the videos he wanted , some of them were declared lost or stored on HD." Ha,ha, thats the OFFICIAL version. I cant talk about the real reasons, because its classified as top secret. But its a shame, that VAH is now in a row with child porn producers. Thats idiotic ! The opposite is true ! Before 1986, real childporn was legal in NL, and VAH never produced porn with < 16, because the founder, Mr. Vanderholt, was totally against it. In fact, the foundation of VAH in 1977, was also a sign against real cp, because in the 70s, many, many companys produced this terrible trash, participated on this crime. He didnt, and now his company is named in a line with companys who produced real cp ( Color Climax, Rodox, Joop Wilhelmus, Willy Strauss etc. ). This is not only unfair, but turns the truth from the top to the bottom. The cp criminal Joop Wilhelmus was his arch enemy, he also stole the name of Wanderholts mag title "chicks" and made a cheap counterfeit edition on his own, before he produced his criminal "Lolita" magazine. So instead of accusing VAH, they should be happy, that they were strictly against cp, in a time, where so-called "liberals" defended every sex crime in the NL. Freedom of expression and freedom of speech are important parts of a liberal democracy. But child porn is a crime, and cant be defended with a law that garants "freedom of press". The legal 16,17 material from NL, and the legal 15-17 material from DK, is also the main reason of the "exploding numbers of commercial cp in Europe" in the 80s and 90s, the US government is claiming. In my opinion, laws should be set back to 15. So that investigators can use their time and manpower to fight real cp better. It also makes no sense, that you can have sex, even in the USA, with 16, ( in Germany with 14 ) but if you film it, you are producing "child porn". You name Tiny Tove, she looked like 15 or 16, when she started, but she was already 18. ( Its the opposite with Tracy Lords ) But CCC had many girls under 18 in the 80s, even as low as 15, because this was the legal age in DK . And pre-80, that really was a criminal period at CCC. They produced and marketed real childporn, ranging from 6 months - 14 years. Some of the material with 13 and 14 was made out of a free will, some models later made clear. In my opinion, this is too young and questionable, if you already have the foresight to decide this with 13 or 14. But all of the other material was criminal childporn at his worst. And it wasnt even possible to prosecute this, because it was legal, or it was a legal loophole. Edited by - Caroline-NL on 8/25/2007 2:14:31 PM [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 5:49PM I didn't know all that details but I know for sure that either in France and in Italy was never allowed to make porn to those who weren't adult in Italy the adult age has been lowered from 21 to 18 in 1977 , age of consent has been raised from 14 (but only with other minors) to 18 last year right now an adult can have sex only with another adult , penalties are severe. Though all of that CCC (which also produced bestiality at that time) and other productions were published including that incredible horrible magazine called Lolita which as a periodic was sold in regular newspapers seller just as it was a Playboy , to my knowledge it had been available til late '80 or maybe even early '90 , not sure of that , I've never been a customer of that kind of things ,very appalling in my opinion Edited by - Laurie Cameron Fan on 8/25/2007 5:53:35 PM [Link]
maccer Member 38 Posts 4/05	Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 7:29PM Savannah Moore starred in several 2003 "Simon Wolf" movies using a fake ID. She was 17 and disappeared from the industry since getting caught. [Link]
Harri Patel Senior Member #SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele 5110 Posts 3/03	Posted - Aug 26 2007 : 12:37AM Porn Scout wrote: What are the penalties for violations of the 2257 record keeping regulations? Click to expand Up to five years in prison, and a fine. (Scroll to the last section.) That's for a first offense. And it could just as well be for a MILF movie as it could for Just Barely Legal Tiny Teens with Tight Teeny Twats #28. [Link]
Porn Scout Deactivated User 3735 Posts 10/02	Posted - Aug 26 2007 : 3:52AM The interesting thing is that you can go to jail for failing to keep proper records, even if there is no underlying crime. I wonder how legal scholars feel about this legislation and how vulnerable it is to challenge? [Link]

the unknown pervert Deactivated User I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch. 3243 Posts 5/06	Posted - Aug 26 2007 : 10:58AM The problem is do you want to be the first one to have to empty their entire life's savings into a legal defense fund to find out? [Link]
caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07	Posted - Aug 26 2007 : 3:53PM @ Laurie Cameron Fan wrote: "either in France and in Italy was never allowed to make porn to those who weren't adult" You have to differentiate between porn in France and Italy. In France, porn < 18 was illegal. So there were special french editions of Seventeen. But they had to produce special editions all the way, because France has the strange SECAM TV System. ( All other european countries have PAL ) In Italy, it was illegal to produce porn with < 18, but not to view, possess or distribute it, if it was produced in a country, where the age of consent was lower. The minimum age for foreign porn was 15 in Italy, because the old CCC Teen Series (15+) and all Seventeen (16+) videos were sold in Italy without problems. Bestiality is legal in Italy and France ( and NL/DK too ). "Lolita which as a periodic was sold in regular newspapers seller just as it was a Playboy , to my knowledge it had been available til late '80" No. It was taken off distribution in 1985, after production of childporn was finally declared illegal in NL, sadly as the last country in Western-Europe. Some more magazines were produced in 86, and Joop Wilhelmus was arrested first in 1986. He was arrested several times, because he always went back to distribute cp. He was killed in 1994, shortly after he was released from prison. The murderer was never found. Wilhelmus sometimes received several death threats on one day. Sent by victims, their parents or other citizens. [Link]
mallo-cup Member 19 Posts 8/06	Posted - Aug 26 2007 : 11:51PM My guess is the proposed legislation has less to do with keeping minors out of the porn biz than it does harassment. Thinking of the teacher down south who was released from her job after her porn past was discovered. It could be a new attempt to erode an industry by going after the performers rather than the producers and distributors which was the old style. Besides, if they wanted to keep minors out, they should go after strip clubs which more frequently turn a blind eye to age. Or it could be that most of our legislators are closet perv's who are lookin' for dates with their favorite performers... [Link]
Porn Scout Deactivated User 3735 Posts 10/02	Posted - Aug 27 2007 : 1:13AM The new rules are well past the "proposed" stage. They also explicitly go after producers, not performers. The whole point of the 2257 regs is to make it more difficult for producers. [Link]
tmd5 Member seika izumi 502 Posts 6/04	Posted - Aug 27 2007 : 5:46AM So...i'm curious. Has anyone who has violated 2257 actually went to jail over this yet? I'm aware of the producer of Girls Gone Wild getting into trouble, but that's about it.. Bad record keeping and you can go to jail over this despite not having any performers underage? Five years for this? Give me a break. I could accidently kill someone with my car or run a dog fighting operation and kill dozens of dogs for fun and get a lesser sentence than that... Not even martha stewart gets five years. Most likely they're only trying to scare people and they would never really get five years. Hmm, wonder how long they'll lock you up for producing obscene movies? I heard at one time that a judge dropped charges against one man for producing obscene videos because it was unconstitutional for some reason. [Link]
Harri Patel Senior Member #SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele 5110 Posts 3/03	Posted - Aug 27 2007 : 12:39PM AFAIK, no one has yet been prosecuted. The 2257 record-keeping requirements have been on the books for quite a few years, but it's only been fairly recently that the government has actually started wasting your tax dollars on sending FBI agents out to inspect companies' records for compliance with the requirements. [Link]
junglew Senior Member 1042 Posts 12/02	Posted - Aug 27 2007 : 1:02PM " recently that the government has actually started wasting your tax dollars on sending FBI agents out to inspect companies' records for compliance with the requirements." If were are hit again after 2/26 % 9/11 while FBI agents are out in in the valley checking porn paperwork hopefully there will be hell to pay. Wayne In Dallas [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Aug 27 2007 : 2:06PM caroline-NL wrote: Bestiality is legal in Italy and France ( and NL/DK too ). Click to expand Bestiality is not legal in Italy It is more correct to say that it's not illegal , AFAIK there's no law who allows it as it is in France (that's why I say it is not legal) still there's no law who clearly forbid it , but there are laws forbidding cruelty against animals, it's a grey zone About the second point I heard about Lolita magazine at that time that's why I mistaken a year for another mod: snipped the quote - see the Forum Etiquette Edited by - hardware on 8/27/2007 4:26:36 PM [Link]
caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07	Posted - Aug 29 2007 : 6:58AM @Laurie Cameron Fan: "but there are laws forbidding cruelty against animals" We have these laws also in the Netherlands, so it is no contradiction. Cruel Animal porn is forbidden, but normal animal porn is not. The EU also wants to ban the distribution of animal porn in the next years. [Link]
the unknown pervert Deactivated User I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch. 3243 Posts 5/06	Posted - Aug 29 2007 : 9:45AM caroline-NL wrote: Cruel Animal porn is forbidden, but normal animal porn is not. Click to expand I hereby nominate whatever poor souls that have been delegated to determining what is cruel animal porn and what is normal animal porn as finalists for the worst job in the world. I would love to know what these people say at a dinner party when the question "So what do you do for a living?" comes up. [Link]

RandomPrecision Senior Member Enjoy! 8175 Posts 3/06	Posted - Aug 29 2007 : 9:48AM I dunno. As a youth, I spent many hours sitting on my porch observing the mating habits of animals. It's not exactly something to brag about but would sure be an easy job. [Link]
junglew Senior Member 1042 Posts 12/02	Posted - Aug 29 2007 : 2:06PM In the ABC news program I watched the phrase 2257 was never mentioned. Maybe they were talking about an old law or maybe they were talking about a new one. It is pure harrassment and nothing more and nothing less. They are mostly old dryed up hypocrites who are not getting any and don't want anyone else to have fun. I like the quote of a Liberitian canidate for president Andre Marue who said "Democrats are scared to death other people are making more money than they are and Republicans are scared to death other people are having more fun than they are. Wayne In Dallas [Link]
caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07	Posted - Aug 30 2007 : 1:07PM @junglew : When I sometimes receive recorded broadcasts from the US, then they dont mention the "2257", but talk instead about the "18" law, or the "law to ban childporn". The last is total nonsense, because even the first versions of 2257 criminalize childporn. And there still were laws passed as early as 1977, that criminalized this. Its just more and more red tape, more and more harrassment. [Link]
frodo Member 18 Posts 12/05	Posted - Sep 22 2007 : 5:31PM Since Caroline mentioned Tove Jensen, I'll post this here. Wondering if anyone can verify this blog post which has court documents indicating Tove was underage in the loop "Teenage Tricks." It appears the defendant was successfully prosecuted. [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Sep 22 2007 : 6:36PM Tove was well over 18 years old it had been already demonstrated in some court in Europe alsoI believe that Teenage Tricks wasn't her first flick that year Color Climax published 6 flicks of her all filmed in a very short period during her summer holidays she was active for 3 years from 1979 to 1981 when she was 22 at least that is what is well known in Europe but of course no one knows her personally EDIT I read testimony and prosecutor response the first one thinks he was underage (thinks not knows for sure)and the second shows no evidence she was as such Anyway I find at least strange that when in the Nederlands child porn wasn't illegal and the age of consent to do porn was 16 (or maybe even 15) Tove was always declared as over 18 , there was no reason to do so Edited by - Laurie Cameron Fan on 9/22/2007 6:54:21 PM [Link]
caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07	Posted - Sep 23 2007 : 3:47PM "Tove was well over 18 years old, it had been already demonstrated in some court in Europe" Yes, Tove may look like 16, but she was already 18, when she started to play in porn. Her mother, a porn veteran, dont wanted, that her daughter started earlier. Please keep in mind, that this was a time, where the legal age of porn was still 15 in Denmark. And a good girlfriend of me started with 15 then, so I know some details. ( But she never met Tiny Tove. ) "Anyway I find at least strange that when in the Nederlands child porn wasn't illegal and the age of consent to do porn was 16 (or maybe even 15) Tove was always declared as over 18 , there was no reason to do so" There was no real legal age of consent to do porn prior 1985 in the Netherlands. After they bannded child porn, the 16 minimum age limit was also included in the constitution. The legal age in Denmark was 15 ( until 2003 ! ), producing childporn until 1979 was neither legal nor illegal, it was in a grey area, but the finished childporn movie was legal, because of a very liberal press law. ( A totally wrong view of "liberalism", and they corrected this in late 1979, so DK was the first european country legalizing porn, but also the first to prosecute and ban childporn ! ) Tove wasnt always declared as "over 18", otherwise the state attorneys and law officials hadnt speculated about her real age. You cant find an "over 18" seal on the old 8mm films or the following V2000, BETA and VHS tapes. CCC can be lucky, that she made her movies between 18-21. And they included the "18" seal in the early 90s. Because of a changing law in Sweden. ( Sweden was the first scandinavian country raising the legal age to 18. ) The old SWEDISH EROTICA, ranging from 80 on, at least the NTSC export versions I know, have the " All are 18 or over " statement, because they exported them into the USA and CANADA. This explains the strict 18 labelling, at a time, when they had lower age limits in Sweden. [Link]
caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07	Posted - Sep 23 2007 : 3:57PM to add: If I remember this correctly, a british court has already proven, that Tiny was 18. What the US Justice dept. is claiming, is total nonsense. The "Tiny Tove" case was examined in UK and even in DK, after the 18-law was passed. This is only important for export, because the old 15-17 movies are still tolerated in DK, but it is forbidden to reproduce them or to produce new movies with models under 18 now. Edited by - Caroline-NL on 9/23/2007 3:58:25 PM [Link]
mindee Member If you don't break the rules, you'll never have any fun! 717 Posts 10/06	Posted - Sep 23 2007 : 4:21PM In any "regular" business the employer is not at fault for hiring someone who might be underage for that particular business as long as the employer took "reasonable care" in establishing the age of the employee. So if the little tyke shows up with a good fake of a driver's license and a good fake of a birth certificate, the employer would not be at fault. But since the "adult" business is always on the bad-guy list, you've got to be super careful in what you accept as age proof. [Link]
BigMatt Member Sunrise Adams, Queen of Cute. 498 Posts 12/04	Posted - Sep 23 2007 : 4:55PM There should be a difference between getting a minor into porn vs a McJob. The latter is likely to have far lesser negative consequences for the person later in life than the first. [Link]
the unknown pervert Deactivated User I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch. 3243 Posts 5/06	Posted - Sep 24 2007 : 6:26AM ^Depends on the job, working at McDonald's yes, but working say at a Goodyear tire plant or some other industry/factory type job could very well be more hazardous than porn. In today's litigation climate if there is a chance for a big time lawsuit if someone underage was injured or worse on the job the company is smart to cover their ass. [Link]
frodo Member 18 Posts 12/05	Posted - Sep 24 2007 : 5:04PM "EDIT I read testimony and prosecutor response the first one thinks he was underage (thinks not knows for sure)and the second shows no evidence she was as such" It was sworn testimony, and the prosecutor response indicates the prosecution was successful. I suppose the question is what evidence did they rely on. If Tove had been verified in Euro courts as over 18 in her productions, why is there no info on this in various adult forums, news articles, legal forums, etc.? Is there a way to confirm this? And what was used to verify her age? What the U.S. feds are doing may be "nonsense" but it's serious nonsense. If that chap was convicted of Tove images, then a precedent was set and anyone could be charged. One need only look at the Kelly Hoose case to see what you're up against. If Bertsch images keep getting charged as child porn, then how does one defend against 30 year old images? Edited by - frodo on 9/29/2007 2:05:01 PM [Link]
LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05	Posted - Sep 24 2007 : 7:01PM Let me get it straight if someone says in a sworn testimony that he THINKS she was underage this transform that in truth? I'm not American but if I remember well it is the prosecutor who must prove the crime not the convicted his innocence , we're talking of a movie registered in the Library if the Congress and sold with the usual statement of adult age at the time of filming , did the prosecutor asked to the custodian of record the proof of this? You asked why there's no mention of old court decision about that if a prosecutor doesn't even ask to the custodian of records I doubt he will search for other court's verdicts It is not the customer who must do that if so since no one of us has any ID of them, if someone is proven guilty because cannot prove the age of a girl in a movie (with the statement as above) then we all are at risk ,do you have proof of the age of all the girls or boys in your movies at time of shooting? Anyway I remember of at least one verdict about a most famous clip of her called Always Prepared released in 1980 (a year after Teenage Tricks then) in which Tove plays as a girl scout or so but it was many years ago Also if Tove was proven underage and that man was proven guilty (but he could be proven guilty because of some movie though) other why there's no news about the removing of it from the Library of Congress and the prosecution of Color Climax in the USA? I'm guessing that would be a major scandal having kiddyporn in there and even protecting it. Edited by - Laurie Cameron Fan on 9/24/2007 7:04:03 PM [Link]
caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07	Posted - Sep 25 2007 : 12:00PM I can only rely on my danish girlfriend, because I cant understand danish, but a few years ago, she read about the Tiny Tove case on danish sites. And she also talked with some veterans of danish Hardcore of the 70s. It just wasnt and isnt a big issue in Denmark, because all knew for decades, that Tiny Tove entered the porn biz with 18. Why is this common knowledge ? Because many were angry then, that her mother - a porn actress herself - stopped her daughter entering the porn biz earlier. Tiny wanted to start with 17, but her mother dont allowed it. ( This allowance wasnt even needed then, but Tiny dont wanted to break up her good relationship with her mother. ) Believe it or not, but in the wild times of the 70s, she was accused of "conservatism" and "narrow-mindedness". Wasnt there even a movie, where she played together with her daughter ? Often it is stated, that Tiny Tove made erotic photographs with 17. That is correct, but these photographs only show her in a bathing suit ! She never did hardcore before 18, at least not for publishing. The problem with the cases on court is, and I know of many of such cases, because I investigated and researched about the topic of "Teenage Pornography" for years, that these cases arent open, because the identity of the porn stars is revealed here, also many private things are examined in court. Details are classified as strictly confidental and companies arent interested in going public, even if 95% of these cases proved, that the actresses were of legal age, when the movies were filmed. We had many of such cases in Europe in the 90s. The main focus of many cases wasnt to prove, that they were 18, but 16, because this was the legal age in many european countries. Now almost all countries ( excluding Germany, but they will adapt the USA law until the end of the year ) have the 18 age minimum law, so all these proofs, that a model is 16 or 17, are worthless. The problem with very old material, especially from the 70s and to the mid-80s is, that this was a time, when even terrible childporn was legal ( or to be more precise not illegal ). Most directors dont asked about passport, ID card etc. Why should they ? So CCC only asked for birth certificate/ID after 1980, all pre-1980 papers - the few that existed - ( remember, they published and distributed quite a lot of childporn movies and mags ! ) are "lost". @Laurie Cameron Fan wrote: "...it is the prosecutor who must prove the crime, not the convicted his innocence." WRONG ! The 2257 turns this from the top to the bottom ! Here the company has to prove the age of the model ! Not vice versa ! Very difficult, if the movie was made in a time, when there were no such laws and no age limits at all. It is very strange, that they center on Tiny Tove, but not on other models. And the raise of the minimum age from 15/16 to 18 results in an explosion of "child pornography". But its Teen Pornography, because the actors are Teens over 15. I think it is also no coincidence, that the new mastered "Teenage Bestsellers" DVDs are released and distributed out of Germany, because they still have the old ( § 184 ) 14 years minimum age. Of course there are no 14 and 15 year old girls in there, but I am not sure, if all of the models really have reached their 18th birthday. But Tiny Tove has. You only have to recheck her birthdate and examine the production year of her first movies. The date of production is printed on the Super8 movie box. And you can check it in the catalogues. Tiny Tove started shortly after her 18th birthday. And I doubt, that she faked her birth certification. This also isnt making sense, when you keep in mind, that she was able to start much, much earlier. US judges only have to ask their british and/or danish colleagues. But - and that MAY BE the criticial point - if they demand a paper, an ID copy, signature of the director etc. - all this isnt existing, because danish laws dont demanded this THEN, and the company isnt existing anymore. And if US judges really demand this, than even almost all european porn with 18+ models is illegal in the States. Only exception is Sweden ( Swedish Erotica ), they have all the "paperwork" back to the 70s, because they had many US stars and the US market was their main target. [Link]
junglew Senior Member 1042 Posts 12/02	Posted - Sep 25 2007 : 1:07PM Carolina NL writes " Only exception is Sweden ( Swedish Erotica} WRONG. Even the incompetant porn fan knows that Sweden had nothing to do with Swedish Erotica. They were mostly American actresses. Maybe one of the American actresses grandmother came from Sweden but that was about it. Wayne In Dallas [Link]
caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07	Posted - Sep 25 2007 : 2:30PM junglew wrote :"Even the incompetant porn fan knows that Sweden had nothing to do with Swedish Erotica. They were mostly American actresses. Maybe one of the American actresses grandmother came from Sweden but that was about it." Thats only half-true, because the movies were released simultaneously in Sweden, with a swedish distributor and with a swedish video box. Even in formats that never existed in the US. I have "Swedish Erotica" Vol.1 in PAL on "Video2000" (VCC). And this video format was strictly european. There were some swedish actresses and some episodes were made in Sweden. But apart from Swedish Erotica, also other swedish companies had the "All actors over 18" statement, because Sweden very early exported many porn movies into the USA and Canada. [Link]
frodo Member 18 Posts 12/05	Posted - Sep 25 2007 : 5:36PM LCF said: "Let me get it straight if someone says in a sworn testimony that he THINKS she was underage this transform that in truth?" If that person is a government witness, especially 'expert' witnesses. They are viewed by a jury as being honest and trustworthy. What they usually do with annonymous images is use Tanner Staging, either by a lay person or a medical professional. Doj spelled it out here, starting at page 33. They cite to a number of court cases in support. So if they are vintage images, good luck. And if they are current images, good luck. U.S. passed a law last year making it illegal for the government to provide copies of the alleged images or the computer hard drive for [ invalid url ]. If there is meta data identifying the commercial source of the images, the government won't tell you, and it'll cost a fortune to hire a forensic expert to find it while sitting in the feds office with an agent watching him. And you're right, it would be a scandal but at the same time the feds seldom admit they made a mistake. So it's a probably more of a conspiracy to cover it up, and protect the verdict. Caroline-NL said: "The problem with the cases on court is, and I know of many of such cases, because I investigated and researched about the topic of "Teenage Pornography" for years, that these cases arent open, because the identity of the porn stars is revealed here, also many private things are examined in court. Details are classified as strictly confidental and companies arent interested in going public, even if 95% of these cases proved, that the actresses were of legal age, when the movies were filmed." In the U.S. all court documents are public unless sealed for a specific reason or request or by court rules. Why would the companies fear not going public if they were exonerated in court? They don't fear taking the public's money. "You only have to recheck her birthdate and examine the production year of her first movies." I imagine that's been a problem, no one seems able or willing to verify her birthdate. Just because Color Climax or someone else says it's such and such holds no weight in court. Something similar as to what is currently used for the 2257 regulations would be needed. And even then, it didn't do much good for Kelly Hoose. Edited by - frodo on 9/25/2007 5:39:17 PM [Link]

Author

Post

junglew
Senior Member

1042 Posts
12/02

Posted - Aug 21 2007 : 10:04PM

Just finished watching ABC News Now which is on ABC's Cable Network. They were discussing a new record keeping law passed by congress to put information about all adult performers in a database and if a an actress is not listed with all their info it requires 5 years in jail. Ron Jeremy, Paul Cambria [Attorney for Huster] and a US attorney, who was held over from the last topic, plus the host were discussing the topic. The US attorney who favors the law was taken aback by the inflamatory tone of the host. Paul Cambria mentioned that their were only 3 actresses underage in the 30 year history of porn. Of course everyone remembers Tracy Lords and I recall Alexandria Quinn. Does any know the third one? Ron mentioned that Tracy's documention also fooled the US goverment, when they gave her a passport under the name Tracy Lords. I recall then Attorney General Ashcroft lamenting after 9/11 that the FBi were not going to be able to go after porno because of those pesky terrorist who blew up the world trade center. He was all set to use the full power of the federal government to try and shut down porn but now they were going to have to use their resourses to fight terrorism. Lucky us.
Wayne In Dallas

[Link]

Jaktarn
Senior Member

4798 Posts
5/05

Posted - Aug 23 2007 : 1:54AM

I believe the third girl was Debi Diamond. Who was 17 at her first scene.

[Link]

techie
Member

62 Posts
4/05

Posted - Aug 23 2007 : 2:45AM

I also seem to recall rumors about a black girl, but I can't remember her name. IIRC, she was only appeared in a couple films, probably abut 4-5 years ago.

[Link]

Dean Wormer
Senior Member

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
1048 Posts
7/04

Posted - Aug 23 2007 : 3:18AM

I think the third girl was Kristara Barrington. Her scene in "Every Woman Has a Fantasy" was later edited out sometime around late 1986 or early 1987.

[Link]

caroline-NL
Member

543 Posts
3/07

Posted - Aug 23 2007 : 5:33AM

I think this is grossly overestimated.
At least for the US market.
Aside from illegal porn, I doubt that more as
10 "underagers" ( which means mostly 17 ) played
in commercial porn.
We in Europe have serious troubles with the
18 age limit, because we had lower minimum age in some
countries for porn until 5 years ago. ( 15 and 16 )
15 is rare, but 16 and especially 17 isnt.
So there is a flood of "illegal" material.
But most state authorities confiscate only material
under 16 or under 15, dependent on the country.
I think the 2257 regulations are strict enough -
( much too strict, in my opinion ),
so this new law doesnt make sense and is only
used to criminalize porn ( actors ).

[Link]

RandomPrecision
Senior Member

Enjoy!
8175 Posts
3/06

Posted - Aug 23 2007 : 7:21AM

If there are any underage performers working in the US at all, I'm sure it's not deliberate on the part of the studios. The only way I could see it happening is in a Tracy Lords sort of situation in which the girl faked her ID and lied about her age.
The studios wouldn't touch a girl they even thought was underage with a 100 foot pole.
This is bullshit. It's only purpose is to create more legal hoops for the industry to jump through and force them to spend more money.

[Link]

Uncle Fester
Deactivated User

I rock, therefore I am!
131 Posts
6/07

Posted - Aug 24 2007 : 2:04PM

I believe another underage performer from the 80's was Ali Moore. She did a scene with Ron Jeremy in WPINK that included a close up of her taking a Jeremy pop directly into her mouth. If I recall, she had glasses on for most of the scene also. Anyway, subsequent versions of the disc have her scene completely excised, thus indicating that she was underage. Damn, because she was SSSSWWWWWEEEEEEEEEETTTTTT!

[Link]

junglew
Senior Member

1042 Posts
12/02

Posted - Aug 24 2007 : 2:09PM

caroline-NL, I am having trouble understanding some of your post. Do you mean that 3 girls is an underextimated figure rather than overeestimated one? I knew that the age of consent is lower in other countrys but since the us market is so large why make a major movie that cannot be distributed in the us. Probably some speciality films are made with under 18 girls and of course there is the illegaly stuff which I wouldn't touch with a 200 ft. pole.
I have heard that Tracy's suff is legal in some countrys like Canada where it is grandfathered in.
Wayne In Dallas

[Link]

caroline-NL
Member

543 Posts
3/07

Posted - Aug 24 2007 : 5:25PM

junglew wrote:
caroline-NL, I am having trouble understanding some of your post. Do you mean that 3 girls is an underextimated figure rather than overeestimated one?"
I wanted to say, that the whole "problem" isnt one - in the USA. I think there were more cases as 3, but slightly under
a dozen. The new regulations are nonsense. And the whole
problem is an overestimation. There isnt one.
You dont need a law for ten cases, or ?
"I knew that the age of consent is lower in other countrys but since the us market is so large why make a major movie that cannot be distributed in the us."
Because the european / japanese market is and was large enough. But the production with 15-17 year old models
is forbidden now, "thanks" to the US, who labels this as
"childporn".
I think 15 should be the lowest minimum age, but even if you think this is too low, this has absolutely nothing to do with childporn. And 16 and 17 year olds arent children, at least under european laws. US politicans had put enormous pressure on the dutch and the danish governments, to change this, so that they adapt the 2257 regulations.
( Its new to me, that the Netherlands are a part of
the USA ?! )
"I have heard that Tracy's suff is legal"
It isnt legal in most european countries any longer, but it isnt seizured also. Its in a strange gray area now.
As is the older 16/17 material. You can still buy this
in the NL/DK ( but please dont do this ! -its more as illegal under US laws ), but its not sure, how long this
will be legal, or if it is still legal at all.
It all depends on the arbitrariness of the authorities now.

[Link]

RandomPrecision
Senior Member

Enjoy!
8175 Posts
3/06

Posted - Aug 24 2007 : 5:38PM

And furthermore - if a girl fakes her ID and lies about her age - If it's an undetectable fake, how the fuck is this the industry's fault?

[Link]

junglew
Senior Member

1042 Posts
12/02

Posted - Aug 24 2007 : 7:51PM

caroline-NL, thanks for clearing up your point. I am an American so I only speak one language. Someone doesn't have to speak or write perfect english for me. I welcome all people to get their ideas and opinions. Europe is much more enlighted in their views on sex. Most of your religious whacos came over her in the last 4 centuries and we are doing our best to tame them. I hear only 9% of French attend church at least once a week and over her it is still only 27%. Keep posting.
Wayne In Dallas

[Link]

Lance
Member

My Life Sucks
386 Posts
4/05

Posted - Aug 24 2007 : 9:25PM

What I don't get, is the fair and balanced media is portraying this as a new law. It's not, Records have been needed and kept for longer than I've been alive. No legit company would shoot underage girls, period. The criminals making illegal videos don't keep records either so the way this law is enforced is only to harass the industry and force some people out of business. Like the need to have someone on staff 20 hours a week, just in case someone decides to inspect?
PS, no you cannot get Tracy Lords vids in Canada, as has been alluded to. It has never been legal to shoot anyone under 18 here. In fact in some provinces it's tough to shoot until they are 19 as the girls may not be able to legally sign into a contract.
www.makemoneyfucking.com

[Link]

LCF

All-Star Member

Non Prevalebunt!
10364 Posts
1/05

Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 4:20AM

Apparently in this post there are more than 3 US actresses who were suspected underage when they begun doing porn.
About Europe to have underage girls on movies is one of the very few things forbidden in Italy's and France which are the most permissive Countries for Porn sales , Spain might be the same way but I don't know it for sure. I mean STRICTLY FORBIDDEN.
It is true though that in Holland age of consent for free sex was 16 (maybe even less)including Porn , that's why many videos from Holland stated that all actresses and actors were of LEGAL AGE which could've meant anything , the EU forced the Nederland to raise the minimum age required to do porn at 18 and now it is stated that all actors and actresses were at least 18 years old when filming.
Some of the older Seventeen's videos are unavailable some collection and reprints have been edited , there are flicks available only directly from Holland in streaming.
Thay could have another cause though , they sold all their old material and maybe some of it had been lost , an acquantenance of mine was in Holland for job so went to buy some videos , he told me the mess was incredible they couldn't find any of the videos he wanted , some of them were declared lost or stored on HD.

[Link]

Porn Scout
Deactivated User

3735 Posts
10/02

Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 4:31AM

What are the penalties for violations of the 2257 record keeping regulations?

[Link]

Shagdog
Member

Houston
626 Posts
1/07

Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 6:20AM

These rumors are heard by the christian right wing too. And are used to spur law enforcement into action. I think producers wanting to promote a film or actress start these rumors.
I googled Kristara Barrington and Debi Diamond and didn’t find any mention of them working under age.
During the last 2257 dust up I read an article on FYI that said it was a gay male porn star.
The article mentioned the rumor involving the black girl but no one could find her or any proof it was true.
I, like you can’t prove any of this to be true.
This is not going to hurt existing porn companies at all. What this does is throw another “money” obstacle in the way of people trying to start a porn company.
The business community has always used laws to put obstacle in way of new businesses.
It won’t stop anyone from going into porn.

[Link]

Dean Wormer
Senior Member

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
1048 Posts
7/04

Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 6:50AM

I was able to pull this off of RAME from about 6 years ago. The following is by a moderator named Frank Simmons.

That would be me. There are probably numerous people who worked underage, especially in the 70s, but 4 are ther best known. Traci, of course, is the most famous example.

Alexandra Quinn was the secondmost prolific underage performer, she did some 50 or so films when she was 17 - used the money she made to buy herself a boob job for her 18th birthday.

Kristara Barrington made one or two movies when she was 17, "Every Woman Has A Fantasy" (which is available from many distributors, but her scenes are cut) and possibly "Women's Secret Desires". The latter is available uncut and is a girl-girl flick. It's copyright is 1993, and she turned 18 in November 1983, so it's possible it was made after her 18th birthday.

Ali Moore also made two flicks when she was 17, "Love Bites" (with Traci) and "WPINK-TV" (which was shot a month before she turned.)

Recently, one of the companies (Extreme?) pulled and rereleased a flick (Little Porn-A-Bees #2) because it was alleged that one of the actresses (called Sunshine, iirc) was underage.)
Click to expand

[Link]

ma meeshka
Iconoclastic Member

3939 Posts
4/06

Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 7:17AM

replies: 15
views: 1133
quite the popular topic to ogle.
btw, it's traci lords, with an i.

[Link]

sam46
Deactivated User

564 Posts
1/07

Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 7:45AM

Even more bizarre, the topic "culos gigantis 3" had 4 replies, and 286 views.

[Link]

Derek117
Senior Member

1605 Posts
1/06

Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 10:14AM

Besides those mentioned, during the 1980s there were lots of rumors that some girls were underage when they shot their first scenes. Nikki Charm and Jamie Summers were often mentioned as girls who may have started porn before their 18th birthday, but the truth seems to be that they just looked so young that it caused people to talk.
And I was never sure that Ali Moore ever shot porn when she was underage--but thought it may have been a rumor started to hurt her career. Ali could be the real bitch with co-stars and directors, and wasn't the most popular girl among performers. This kind of payback was not uncommon.
BTW, I was underage in the late 1980s when I first started watching porn--I could even get into clubs to see pornstars feature dance when I was 16 yrs old. So, attempts to regulate age doesn't work with customers.
Edited by - Derek117 on 8/25/2007 10:20:49 AM

[Link]

LCF

All-Star Member

Non Prevalebunt!
10364 Posts
1/05

Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 1:51PM

Also Tiny Tove was suspected to be underage at first but it had been proven she was well over eighteen she did her last flick at 21 , she did 14 flicks only and a bunch of photoshoot in a three years career , according to all sites and database dedicated to her, apparently only few of those flicks are still available at Color Climax
Edited by - Laurie Cameron Fan on 8/25/2007 1:53:02 PM

[Link]

caroline-NL
Member

543 Posts
3/07

Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 2:04PM

@Cameron :
"It is true though that in Holland age of consent for free sex was 16 (maybe even less)including Porn , that's why many videos from Holland stated that all actresses and actors were of LEGAL AGE"
Yes, because the legal age was 16 until 1.Oct.2002,
when § 240 was changed.
"the EU forced the Nederland to raise the minimum age required to do porn at 18"
Thats not exact, the EU was forced to change this,
because US governments forced the EU to raise age.
This even goes back to Ronald Reagan.
Many documents prove this - and the "european" 18 law
is the EXACT - word by word - translation of sec. 2257
"they sold all their old material and maybe some of it had been lost , an acquantenance of mine was in Holland for job so went to buy some videos , he told me the mess was incredible they couldn't find any of the videos he wanted , some of them were declared lost or stored on HD."
Ha,ha, thats the OFFICIAL version. I cant talk about the real reasons, because its classified as top secret.
But its a shame, that VAH is now in a row with child porn
producers. Thats idiotic ! The opposite is true !
Before 1986, real childporn was legal in NL, and VAH
never produced porn with < 16, because the founder,
Mr. Vanderholt, was totally against it. In fact,
the foundation of VAH in 1977, was also a sign against real
cp, because in the 70s, many, many companys produced
this terrible trash, participated on this crime.
He didnt, and now his company is named in a line with
companys who produced real cp ( Color Climax, Rodox,
Joop Wilhelmus, Willy Strauss etc. ).
This is not only unfair, but turns the truth from the top
to the bottom. The cp criminal Joop Wilhelmus was his arch
enemy, he also stole the name of Wanderholts mag title
"chicks" and made a cheap counterfeit edition on his own,
before he produced his criminal "Lolita" magazine.
So instead of accusing VAH, they should be happy,
that they were strictly against cp, in a time,
where so-called "liberals" defended every sex crime in the NL. Freedom of expression and freedom of speech are important parts of a liberal democracy.
But child porn is a crime,
and cant be defended with a law that garants "freedom of press".
The legal 16,17 material from NL, and the legal 15-17 material from DK, is also the main reason of the "exploding
numbers of commercial cp in Europe" in the 80s and 90s, the US government is claiming. In my opinion, laws should be set
back to 15. So that investigators can use their time
and manpower to fight real cp better.
It also makes no sense, that you can have sex, even in the USA, with 16, ( in Germany with 14 )
but if you film it, you are producing
"child porn".
You name Tiny Tove, she looked like 15 or 16, when she started, but she was already 18. ( Its the opposite
with Tracy Lords ) But CCC had many girls under 18 in the
80s, even as low as 15, because this was the legal age in DK . And pre-80, that really was a criminal period at CCC.
They produced and marketed real childporn, ranging from
6 months - 14 years. Some of the material with 13 and 14
was made out of a free will, some models later made clear.
In my opinion, this is too young and questionable, if you already have the foresight to decide this with 13 or 14.
But all of the other material was criminal childporn at his worst.
And it wasnt even possible to prosecute this, because
it was legal, or it was a legal loophole.
Edited by - Caroline-NL on 8/25/2007 2:14:31 PM

[Link]

LCF

All-Star Member

Non Prevalebunt!
10364 Posts
1/05

Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 5:49PM

I didn't know all that details but I know for sure that either in France and in Italy was never allowed to make porn to those who weren't adult in Italy the adult age has been lowered from 21 to 18 in 1977 , age of consent has been raised from 14 (but only with other minors) to 18 last year right now an adult can have sex only with another adult , penalties are severe.
Though all of that CCC (which also produced bestiality at that time) and other productions were published including that incredible horrible magazine called Lolita which as a periodic was sold in regular newspapers seller just as it was a Playboy , to my knowledge it had been available til late '80 or maybe even early '90 , not sure of that , I've never been a customer of that kind of things ,very appalling in my opinion
Edited by - Laurie Cameron Fan on 8/25/2007 5:53:35 PM

[Link]

maccer
Member

38 Posts
4/05

Posted - Aug 25 2007 : 7:29PM

Savannah Moore starred in several 2003 "Simon Wolf" movies using a fake ID. She was 17 and disappeared from the industry since getting caught.

[Link]

Harri Patel
Senior Member

#SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele
5110 Posts
3/03

Posted - Aug 26 2007 : 12:37AM

Up to five years in prison, and a fine. (Scroll to the last section.) That's for a first offense. And it could just as well be for a MILF movie as it could for Just Barely Legal Tiny Teens with Tight Teeny Twats #28.

[Link]

Porn Scout
Deactivated User

3735 Posts
10/02

Posted - Aug 26 2007 : 3:52AM

The interesting thing is that you can go to jail for failing to keep proper records, even if there is no underlying crime.
I wonder how legal scholars feel about this legislation and how vulnerable it is to challenge?

[Link]

the unknown pervert
Deactivated User

I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch.
3243 Posts
5/06

Posted - Aug 26 2007 : 10:58AM

The problem is do you want to be the first one to have to empty their entire life's savings into a legal defense fund to find out?

[Link]

caroline-NL
Member

543 Posts
3/07

Posted - Aug 26 2007 : 3:53PM

@ Laurie Cameron Fan wrote:
"either in France and in Italy was never allowed to make porn to those who weren't adult"
You have to differentiate between porn in France and Italy.
In France, porn < 18 was illegal. So there were special
french editions of Seventeen. But they had to produce special editions all the way,
because France has the strange SECAM TV System.
( All other european countries have PAL )
In Italy, it was illegal to produce porn with < 18,
but not to view, possess or distribute it, if it was
produced in a country, where the age of consent was
lower. The minimum age for foreign porn was 15
in Italy, because the old CCC Teen Series (15+) and all
Seventeen (16+) videos were sold in Italy without problems.
Bestiality is legal in Italy and France ( and NL/DK too ).
"Lolita which as a periodic was sold in regular newspapers seller just as it was a Playboy , to my knowledge it had been available til late '80"
No. It was taken off distribution in 1985, after production of childporn was finally declared illegal in NL, sadly as the last country in Western-Europe.
Some more magazines were produced in 86, and Joop Wilhelmus was arrested first in 1986. He was arrested several times, because he always went back to distribute cp. He was killed in 1994, shortly after he was released from prison. The murderer was never found. Wilhelmus sometimes received
several death threats on one day. Sent by victims, their
parents or other citizens.

[Link]

mallo-cup
Member

19 Posts
8/06

Posted - Aug 26 2007 : 11:51PM

My guess is the proposed legislation has less to do with keeping minors out of the porn biz than it does harassment. Thinking of the teacher down south who was released from her job after her porn past was discovered. It could be a new attempt to erode an industry by going after the performers rather than the producers and distributors which was the old style. Besides, if they wanted to keep minors out, they should go after strip clubs which more frequently turn a blind eye to age. Or it could be that most of our legislators are closet perv's who are lookin' for dates with their favorite performers...

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Porn Scout
Deactivated User

3735 Posts
10/02

Posted - Aug 27 2007 : 1:13AM

The new rules are well past the "proposed" stage. They also explicitly go after producers, not performers. The whole point of the 2257 regs is to make it more difficult for producers.

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tmd5
Member

seika izumi
502 Posts
6/04

Posted - Aug 27 2007 : 5:46AM

So...i'm curious. Has anyone who has violated 2257 actually went to jail over this yet? I'm aware of the producer of Girls Gone Wild getting into trouble, but that's about it..
Bad record keeping and you can go to jail over this despite not having any performers underage? Five years for this? Give me a break.
I could accidently kill someone with my car or run a dog fighting operation and kill dozens of dogs for fun and get a lesser sentence than that...
Not even martha stewart gets five years. Most likely they're only trying to scare people and they would never really get five years.
Hmm, wonder how long they'll lock you up for producing obscene movies? I heard at one time that a judge dropped charges against one man for producing obscene videos because it was unconstitutional for some reason.

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Harri Patel
Senior Member

#SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele
5110 Posts
3/03

Posted - Aug 27 2007 : 12:39PM

AFAIK, no one has yet been prosecuted.
The 2257 record-keeping requirements have been on the books for quite a few years, but it's only been fairly recently that the government has actually started wasting your tax dollars on sending FBI agents out to inspect companies' records for compliance with the requirements.

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junglew
Senior Member

1042 Posts
12/02

Posted - Aug 27 2007 : 1:02PM

" recently that the government has actually started wasting your tax dollars on sending FBI agents out to inspect companies' records for compliance with the requirements."
If were are hit again after 2/26 % 9/11 while FBI agents are out in in the valley checking porn paperwork hopefully there will be hell to pay.
Wayne In Dallas

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LCF

All-Star Member

Non Prevalebunt!
10364 Posts
1/05

Posted - Aug 27 2007 : 2:06PM

Bestiality is not legal in Italy It is more correct to say that it's not illegal , AFAIK there's no law who allows it as it is in France (that's why I say it is not legal) still there's no law who clearly forbid it , but there are laws forbidding cruelty against animals, it's a grey zone
About the second point I heard about Lolita magazine at that time that's why I mistaken a year for another
mod: snipped the quote - see the Forum Etiquette
Edited by - hardware on 8/27/2007 4:26:36 PM

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caroline-NL
Member

543 Posts
3/07

Posted - Aug 29 2007 : 6:58AM

@Laurie Cameron Fan:
"but there are laws forbidding cruelty against animals"
We have these laws also in the Netherlands, so it is no
contradiction. Cruel Animal porn is forbidden, but
normal animal porn is not.
The EU also wants to ban the distribution of animal
porn in the next years.

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the unknown pervert
Deactivated User

I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch.
3243 Posts
5/06

Posted - Aug 29 2007 : 9:45AM

I hereby nominate whatever poor souls that have been delegated to determining what is cruel animal porn and what is normal animal porn as finalists for the worst job in the world. I would love to know what these people say at a dinner party when the question "So what do you do for a living?" comes up.

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RandomPrecision
Senior Member

Enjoy!
8175 Posts
3/06

Posted - Aug 29 2007 : 9:48AM

I dunno. As a youth, I spent many hours sitting on my porch observing the mating habits of animals. It's not exactly something to brag about but would sure be an easy job.

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junglew
Senior Member

1042 Posts
12/02

Posted - Aug 29 2007 : 2:06PM

In the ABC news program I watched the phrase 2257 was never mentioned. Maybe they were talking about an old law or maybe they were talking about a new one. It is pure harrassment and nothing more and nothing less. They are mostly old dryed up hypocrites who are not getting any and don't want anyone else to have fun. I like the quote of a Liberitian canidate for president Andre Marue who said "Democrats are scared to death other people are making more money than they are and Republicans are scared to death other people are having more fun than they are.
Wayne In Dallas

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caroline-NL
Member

543 Posts
3/07

Posted - Aug 30 2007 : 1:07PM

@junglew :
When I sometimes receive recorded broadcasts
from the US, then they dont mention the "2257",
but talk instead about the "18" law, or the
"law to ban childporn". The last is total nonsense,
because even the first versions of 2257 criminalize
childporn. And there still were laws passed as early
as 1977, that criminalized this.
Its just more and more red tape,
more and more harrassment.

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frodo
Member

18 Posts
12/05

Posted - Sep 22 2007 : 5:31PM

Since Caroline mentioned Tove Jensen, I'll post this here. Wondering if anyone can verify this blog post which has court documents indicating Tove was underage in the loop "Teenage Tricks."
It appears the defendant was successfully prosecuted.

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LCF

All-Star Member

Non Prevalebunt!
10364 Posts
1/05

Posted - Sep 22 2007 : 6:36PM

Tove was well over 18 years old it had been already demonstrated in some court in Europe alsoI believe that Teenage Tricks wasn't her first flick that year Color Climax published 6 flicks of her all filmed in a very short period during her summer holidays she was active for 3 years from 1979 to 1981 when she was 22 at least that is what is well known in Europe but of course no one knows her personally
EDIT I read testimony and prosecutor response the first one thinks he was underage (thinks not knows for sure)and the second shows no evidence she was as such
Anyway I find at least strange that when in the Nederlands child porn wasn't illegal and the age of consent to do porn was 16 (or maybe even 15) Tove was always declared as over 18 , there was no reason to do so

Edited by - Laurie Cameron Fan on 9/22/2007 6:54:21 PM

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caroline-NL
Member

543 Posts
3/07

Posted - Sep 23 2007 : 3:47PM

"Tove was well over 18 years old, it had been already demonstrated in some court in Europe"
Yes, Tove may look like 16, but she was already 18,
when she started to play in porn. Her mother, a porn veteran, dont wanted, that her daughter started earlier.
Please keep in mind, that this was a time, where the legal
age of porn was still 15 in Denmark. And a good girlfriend
of me started with 15 then, so I know some details.
( But she never met Tiny Tove. )
"Anyway I find at least strange that when in the Nederlands child porn wasn't illegal and the age of consent to do porn was 16 (or maybe even 15) Tove was always declared as over 18 , there was no reason to do so"
There was no real legal age of consent to do porn prior 1985
in the Netherlands. After they bannded child porn, the
16 minimum age limit was also included in the constitution.
The legal age in Denmark was 15 ( until 2003 ! ),
producing childporn until 1979 was neither legal nor illegal, it was in a grey area, but the finished childporn movie was legal, because of a very liberal press law.
( A totally wrong view of "liberalism", and they corrected
this in late 1979, so DK was the first european country
legalizing porn, but also the first to prosecute and ban
childporn ! )
Tove wasnt always declared as "over 18", otherwise the
state attorneys and law officials hadnt speculated about
her real age. You cant find an "over 18" seal on the old
8mm films or the following V2000, BETA and VHS tapes.
CCC can be lucky, that she made her movies between
18-21. And they included the "18" seal in the early 90s.
Because of a changing law in Sweden. ( Sweden was the first
scandinavian country raising the legal age to 18. )
The old SWEDISH EROTICA, ranging from 80 on, at least the
NTSC export versions I know, have the " All are 18 or over "
statement, because they exported them into the USA and CANADA. This explains the strict 18 labelling, at a time,
when they had lower age limits in Sweden.

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caroline-NL
Member

543 Posts
3/07

Posted - Sep 23 2007 : 3:57PM

to add: If I remember this correctly, a british court has
already proven, that Tiny was 18. What the US Justice dept.
is claiming, is total nonsense. The "Tiny Tove" case was
examined in UK and even in DK, after the 18-law was passed.
This is only important for export, because the old 15-17 movies are still tolerated in DK, but it is forbidden to
reproduce them or to produce new movies with models under 18
now.
Edited by - Caroline-NL on 9/23/2007 3:58:25 PM

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mindee
Member

If you don't break the rules, you'll never have any fun!
717 Posts
10/06

Posted - Sep 23 2007 : 4:21PM

In any "regular" business the employer is not at fault for hiring someone who might be underage for that particular business as long as the employer took "reasonable care" in establishing the age of the employee. So if the little tyke shows up with a good fake of a driver's license and a good fake of a birth certificate, the employer would not be at fault. But since the "adult" business is always on the bad-guy list, you've got to be super careful in what you accept as age proof.

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BigMatt
Member

Sunrise Adams, Queen of Cute.
498 Posts
12/04

Posted - Sep 23 2007 : 4:55PM

There should be a difference between getting a minor into porn vs a McJob. The latter is likely to have far lesser negative consequences for the person later in life than the first.

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the unknown pervert
Deactivated User

I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch.
3243 Posts
5/06

Posted - Sep 24 2007 : 6:26AM

^Depends on the job, working at McDonald's yes, but working say at a Goodyear tire plant or some other industry/factory type job could very well be more hazardous than porn. In today's litigation climate if there is a chance for a big time lawsuit if someone underage was injured or worse on the job the company is smart to cover their ass.

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frodo
Member

18 Posts
12/05

Posted - Sep 24 2007 : 5:04PM

"EDIT I read testimony and prosecutor response the first one thinks he was underage (thinks not knows for sure)and the second shows no evidence she was as such"
It was sworn testimony, and the prosecutor response indicates the prosecution was successful. I suppose the question is what evidence did they rely on. If Tove had been verified in Euro courts as over 18 in her productions, why is there no info on this in various adult forums, news articles, legal forums, etc.? Is there a way to confirm this? And what was used to verify her age?
What the U.S. feds are doing may be "nonsense" but it's serious nonsense. If that chap was convicted of Tove images, then a precedent was set and anyone could be charged. One need only look at the Kelly Hoose case to see what you're up against. If Bertsch images keep getting charged as child porn, then how does one defend against 30 year old images?
Edited by - frodo on 9/29/2007 2:05:01 PM

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LCF

All-Star Member

Non Prevalebunt!
10364 Posts
1/05

Posted - Sep 24 2007 : 7:01PM

Let me get it straight if someone says in a sworn testimony that he THINKS she was underage this transform that in truth?
I'm not American but if I remember well it is the prosecutor who must prove the crime not the convicted his innocence , we're talking of a movie registered in the Library if the Congress and sold with the usual statement of adult age at the time of filming , did the prosecutor asked to the custodian of record the proof of this?
You asked why there's no mention of old court decision about that if a prosecutor doesn't even ask to the custodian of records I doubt he will search for other court's verdicts
It is not the customer who must do that if so since no one of us has any ID of them, if someone is proven guilty because cannot prove the age of a girl in a movie (with the statement as above) then we all are at risk ,do you have proof of the age of all the girls or boys in your movies at time of shooting?
Anyway I remember of at least one verdict about a most famous clip of her called Always Prepared released in 1980 (a year after Teenage Tricks then) in which Tove plays as a girl scout or so but it was many years ago
Also if Tove was proven underage and that man was proven guilty (but he could be proven guilty because of some movie though) other why there's no news about the removing of it from the Library of Congress and the prosecution of Color Climax in the USA?
I'm guessing that would be a major scandal having kiddyporn in there and even protecting it.
Edited by - Laurie Cameron Fan on 9/24/2007 7:04:03 PM

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caroline-NL
Member

543 Posts
3/07

Posted - Sep 25 2007 : 12:00PM

I can only rely on my danish girlfriend, because I cant understand danish, but a few years ago, she read about the
Tiny Tove case on danish sites. And she also talked with
some veterans of danish Hardcore of the 70s.
It just wasnt and isnt a big issue in Denmark, because all knew for decades, that Tiny Tove entered the porn biz with 18. Why is this common knowledge ?
Because many were angry then, that her mother - a porn actress herself - stopped her daughter entering the porn biz earlier. Tiny wanted to start with 17, but her mother
dont allowed it. ( This allowance wasnt even needed then, but Tiny dont wanted to break up her good relationship with her mother. )
Believe it or not, but in the wild times of the 70s, she was accused of "conservatism" and "narrow-mindedness". Wasnt there even a movie, where she played together with her daughter ? Often it is stated, that Tiny Tove made erotic photographs with 17. That is correct, but these photographs only show her in a bathing suit ! She never did hardcore before 18, at least not for publishing. The problem with the cases on court is, and I know of many of such cases, because I investigated and researched about the topic of "Teenage Pornography" for years, that these cases arent open,
because the identity of the porn stars is revealed here,
also many private things are examined in court.
Details are classified as strictly confidental and companies arent interested in going public, even if 95% of these cases
proved, that the actresses were of legal age, when the movies were filmed. We had many of such cases in Europe
in the 90s. The main focus of many cases wasnt to prove,
that they were 18, but 16, because this was the legal
age in many european countries. Now almost all countries
( excluding Germany, but they will adapt the USA law until the end of the year ) have the 18 age minimum law, so all these proofs, that a model is 16 or 17, are worthless.
The problem with very old material, especially from the
70s and to the mid-80s is, that this was a time, when even
terrible childporn was legal ( or to be more precise not illegal ). Most directors dont asked about passport, ID card etc. Why should they ? So CCC only asked for birth certificate/ID after 1980, all pre-1980 papers - the few that existed - ( remember, they published and distributed quite a lot of childporn movies and mags ! ) are "lost".
@Laurie Cameron Fan wrote:
"...it is the prosecutor who must prove the crime,
not the convicted his innocence."
WRONG ! The 2257 turns this from the top to the bottom !
Here the company has to prove the age of the model !
Not vice versa !
Very difficult, if the movie was made in a time, when
there were no such laws and no age limits at all.
It is very strange, that they center on Tiny Tove,
but not on other models. And the raise of the minimum
age from 15/16 to 18 results in an explosion of
"child pornography". But its Teen Pornography, because
the actors are Teens over 15.
I think it is also no coincidence, that the new mastered
"Teenage Bestsellers" DVDs are released and distributed out of Germany, because they still have the old ( § 184 ) 14 years minimum age. Of course there are no 14 and 15 year old
girls in there, but I am not sure, if all of the models
really have reached their 18th birthday. But Tiny Tove has.
You only have to recheck her birthdate and examine the production year of her first movies. The date of production
is printed on the Super8 movie box. And you can check it in
the catalogues. Tiny Tove started shortly after her 18th birthday. And I doubt, that she faked her birth certification. This also isnt making sense, when you keep in mind, that she was able to start much, much earlier.
US judges only have to ask their british and/or danish
colleagues. But - and that MAY BE the criticial point -
if they demand a paper, an ID copy, signature of the director etc. - all this isnt existing, because danish
laws dont demanded this THEN, and the company isnt existing
anymore. And if US judges really demand this, than even almost all european porn with 18+ models is illegal in the
States. Only exception is Sweden ( Swedish Erotica ),
they have all the "paperwork" back to the 70s, because
they had many US stars and the US market was their main target.

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junglew
Senior Member

1042 Posts
12/02

Posted - Sep 25 2007 : 1:07PM

Carolina NL writes " Only exception is Sweden ( Swedish Erotica} WRONG. Even the incompetant porn fan knows that Sweden had nothing to do with Swedish Erotica. They were mostly American actresses. Maybe one of the American actresses grandmother came from Sweden but that was about it.
Wayne In Dallas

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caroline-NL
Member

543 Posts
3/07

Posted - Sep 25 2007 : 2:30PM

junglew wrote :"Even the incompetant porn fan knows that Sweden had nothing to do with Swedish Erotica. They were mostly American actresses. Maybe one of the American actresses grandmother came from Sweden but that was about it."
Thats only half-true, because the movies were released
simultaneously in Sweden, with a swedish distributor and
with a swedish video box. Even in formats that never existed
in the US. I have "Swedish Erotica" Vol.1 in PAL on "Video2000" (VCC). And this video format was strictly european. There were some swedish actresses and some episodes were made in Sweden.
But apart from Swedish Erotica, also other swedish companies
had the "All actors over 18" statement, because Sweden very early exported many porn movies into the USA and Canada.

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frodo
Member

18 Posts
12/05

Posted - Sep 25 2007 : 5:36PM

LCF said: "Let me get it straight if someone says in a sworn testimony that he THINKS she was underage this transform that in truth?"
If that person is a government witness, especially 'expert' witnesses. They are viewed by a jury as being honest and trustworthy. What they usually do with annonymous images is use Tanner Staging, either by a lay person or a medical professional. Doj spelled it out here, starting at page 33. They cite to a number of court cases in support.
So if they are vintage images, good luck. And if they are current images, good luck. U.S. passed a law last year making it illegal for the government to provide copies of the alleged images or the computer hard drive for [ invalid url ]. If there is meta data identifying the commercial source of the images, the government won't tell you, and it'll cost a fortune to hire a forensic expert to find it while sitting in the feds office with an agent watching him.
And you're right, it would be a scandal but at the same time the feds seldom admit they made a mistake. So it's a probably more of a conspiracy to cover it up, and protect the verdict.
Caroline-NL said:
"The problem with the cases on court is, and I know of many of such cases, because I investigated and researched about the topic of "Teenage Pornography" for years, that these cases arent open,
because the identity of the porn stars is revealed here,
also many private things are examined in court.
Details are classified as strictly confidental and companies arent interested in going public, even if 95% of these cases
proved, that the actresses were of legal age, when the movies were filmed."
In the U.S. all court documents are public unless sealed for a specific reason or request or by court rules. Why would the companies fear not going public if they were exonerated in court? They don't fear taking the public's money.
"You only have to recheck her birthdate and examine the production year of her first movies."
I imagine that's been a problem, no one seems able or willing to verify her birthdate. Just because Color Climax or someone else says it's such and such holds no weight in court. Something similar as to what is currently used for the 2257 regulations would be needed. And even then, it didn't do much good for Kelly Hoose.

Edited by - frodo on 9/25/2007 5:39:17 PM

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