My nephew who graduated from high school a couple of years ago mentioned that a couple of girls he knew in high school were webcam performers and he knew they weren't 18.
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Chloe Temple Interview| Author | Post |
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| budtugley Senior Member One man's trash can be the next man's treasure. 1187 Posts 1/04 |  Posted - Sep 25 2007 : 6:10PMMy nephew who graduated from high school a couple of years ago mentioned that a couple of girls he knew in high school were webcam performers and he knew they weren't 18. [Link] |
| Everett Senior Member 2088 Posts 6/05 | Posted - Sep 25 2007 : 9:02PM |
| RandomPrecision Senior Member Enjoy! 8175 Posts 3/06 | Posted - Sep 25 2007 : 9:23PM Of course an investigation would need to be done to make sure it was a mistake. But in a case where a girl has a really good fake ID and whatever paperwork is required, whose fault is that? Any transaction that requires ID could potentially run into people with fake ones. Perhaps there should be consequences for people who don't spot them but how are they "the bad guy" if they simply get tricked? It's insane! The bottom line is if you have some chick who can pass for 18 and who has gone out of her way to fake her ID and comes to a porn studio looking for work has issues with her home life and very likely very irresponsible parents. You can say "Oh but she's a runaway". Well, yeah. But how is that anyone else's fault? How are they supposed to know that? Their parents are supposed to be responsible for them. Why do they get a free pass if everybody else on the planet has to pay for their irresponsibility? Edited by - randomprecision on 9/25/2007 9:29:06 PM [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Sep 26 2007 : 11:33AM "is use Tanner Staging, either by a lay person or a medical" The Tanner Scale is used only in the USA and CANADA, and it ISNT reliable. 17 year old girls were classified as 13 or 14 year olds. "In the U.S. all court documents are public unless sealed for a specific reason or request or by court rules." Its the total opposite in Europe, all documents are closed for public, until there is a general public interest in the case. And even then the state can raise his veto, e.g. we had a terrible airplane crash in the Netherlands in 1992, where plutonium was set free, and most of the documents are still top secret. I think only Great Britain differs here, but all cases regarding sexuality ( e.g. rape, sexual abuse, but also normal porn productions ) are kept 100% private. "Why would the companies fear not going public if they were exonerated in court?" Because they dont want an open discussion about this at all ! If the model was underage, they drop the movies, even destroy the negatives, because the state authorities forces them to do this under surveillance. If they arent, they dont go public with this, because they dont want a talk about it. If the laws are changed - like in Europe now, where the minimum age raises from 15/16 to 18 - companies dont talk about it in the public, but only with scientists, police, authorities etc. involved in this. 90% of the details I received were strictly confidental, so I dont talk about the details of the many cases I know of. I only mentioned the Tiny Tove case, and I dont have special infos on this case, because this is general knowledge in Denmark, was also discussed in the danish google groups and even mentioned in danish mass media. "I imagine that's been a problem, no one seems able or willing to verify her birthdate." That wasnt a problem, they controlled her birth certificate. This is really the easiest thing, to check the birth date. To check the exact date of production, this is much more difficult. But this was possible, because CCC released a catalogue every quarter, where the new movies were announced. Also, and I only read this but cant verify it, the charges of 8mm films had internal numbers, and with these numbers you could trace back the exact month/year when the movies were copied. I really dont understand, why the US authorities are using the "Tiny Tove" case to fight danish porn. This case was closed - crystal clear. But everytime I read about such cases, the US press is always surpressing the fact, that we had much lover minimum ages in Europe. The USA too had lower age ranges in the past, depending on the State. After the passing of bills against childporn, the minimum age was 16 in many states. This was changed under President Carter, who was the first president who prepared federal laws against childporn and federal laws regarding legal porn. [Link] |
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| frodo Member 18 Posts 12/05 | Posted - Sep 26 2007 : 5:06PM "The Tanner Scale is used only in the USA and CANADA, and it ISNT reliable. 17 year old girls were classified as 13 or 14 year olds." Has to be backed up with proof, which is why the Kelly Hoose case linked above, and the other cases Melissa Bertsch was involved in are so important. But there is virtually no info on the Internet about this, which allows the government to continue using it on one group of individuals--consumers. "companies dont talk about it in the public, but only with scientists, police, authorities etc. involved in this." But what about the paying customers? In your opinion, what obligation does a company have when they are presented with info or evidence that an individual has been charged or convicted for possessing images the company is in control of? "That wasnt a problem, they controlled her birth certificate. This is really the easiest thing, to check the birth date." If true, then why are people being charged and convicted for possessing her images? One would think the company had a business incentive to ensure that no one was wrongfully charged or convicted for accessing their product, and would take steps to correct any injustice. "The USA too had lower age ranges in the past, depending on the State. After the passing of bills against childporn, the minimum age was 16 in many states. This was changed under President Carter" The initial Fed law, 18 USC 2252, went into effect in February, 1978, and the definition of minor was 16. Major changes were made under the "Child Protection Act of 1984" including raising the age to 18. Raising the age had more to do with securing convictions than with protecting teens, as the theory was that an 18 year old could not be confused with a 13 or 16 year old. In fact, the DOJ took no position on the age issue, leaving it to Congress. Could not find a link for the above, but it's in House Report No. 98-536, part of the Legislative History of the 1984 Act. In December of 2006, Gonzales spoke to a conference of State Legislatures, complaining of several state child porn laws: "But there are still two states that do not criminalize possession of child pornography without intent to distribute. In six states it is possible for someone to be convicted of possession as only a misdemeanor. While most states' child pornography laws consider persons under age 18 to be minors, five jurisdictions continue to set the age limit at 17, and five others set it at only 16. And 20 jurisdictions do not provide mandatory minimum sentences for those convicted of production, distribution, or possession with intent to distribute child pornography." He then requested three things: "I think there are some basic principles on which we should be unified, and I would ask all states to achieve these three things: Criminalize as a felony all child pornography offenses. Adopt harsher sentences and mandatory minimums. And set the definition of a "child" at 18 years." Although he was referencing child porn laws, he and others want(ed) to raise the age of consent laws to 18 across all states. (by the way, how does one get the block quote set up?) Edited by - frodo on 9/26/2007 5:10:30 PM [Link] |
| studioline Member 303 Posts 8/07 | Posted - Sep 27 2007 : 11:22AM However, 18 is the age when a person is legally allowed to perform any type of sex-work. European strip clubs, phone sex companies, brothels, massage parlors, erotic webcam sites, cybersex sites, exotic night clubs, arranged online dating organizations, porn studios, as well as amateur porn studios, all require a minimun age of 18 before they employ someone. ---- Edited by - studioline on 10/23/2007 10:43:19 AM [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Sep 27 2007 : 12:02PM the Tanner scale isnt reliable, no serious european scientist uses this. I know of some cases where it failed miserably. "Has to be backed up with proof" - This is no problem for law experts and european pediatricians. Do you know the US info show : "Hardcopy" ? Years ago, they had a short TV segment about our (former) dutch teen porn video company, Video Art Holland. An US pediatrician, recommended by the FBI (!), claimed that some of the girls were between 13-15, according to the Tanner scale, which is total nonsense, because they were 16-19, our former legal age was 16, and VAH never did something illegal. The company was founded as early in 1977, and they even rejected models under 16, when here in the Netherlands childporn (sadly) was legal, until 1986. So they have absolutely nothing to do with childporn, but instead they were against childporn, as early as in the 70s. ( Which are often called by porn experts "10 years of madness " ) But "Hardcopy" ( worst subdown boulevard journalism ) claimed after the stupid talk of the FBI man and the pediatrician, that this was "childporn". This was totally wrong, because under european law, porn with 16/17 year old models was legal. Yes, under US law, these movies were and are illegal, but they were never exported to the US legally. Some US videostore owners bought bootlegs or imported them through UK, which was illegal. But the US "journalists" claimed this, only relying on ONE superficial look of a female ( and very conservative, anti-porn ) pediatrician. As far as I know, VAH sued Hardcopy in the USA and won the case. "But there is virtually no info on the Internet about this, which allows the government to continue using it on one group of individuals--consumers." I think in expert groups, e.g. pediatricians, there should be infos, but these are closed groups only for experts. I am a politicial scientist, and we have closed groups too, you can only access them via a codeword. "In your opinion, what obligation does a company have when they are presented with info or evidence that an individual has been charged or convicted for possessing images the company is in control of?" Of course, the companys have responsibility to inform their customers. But you shouldnt forget, that 99% of the recent cases we have, only exist, because of the law changes we had and have in Europe. First the US governments forced EU to raise the age from 14/15/16 to 18, and now that all countries had did this - excluding Germany - they attack the countries once more and cry " childporn ". We had totally different sexual traditions in Europe, we had splitted adult laws in some countries, 16 years/18 years, so you had almost all adult rights with 16, not with 18. If you get back to the USA, how would it be, if CANADA had a 21-year age limit, and forces the USA to adapt this ? All porn movies with actors/actresses below 21 years were labeld as "childporn". Would this make sense ? No ! Of course the companies have to inform the customer. And they dont do it, because of the media hysteria. If someone accuses you of producing childporn, you already have lost, even if these accusations are wrong or idiotic. Its just a no-win-situation. So the companies dont talk about it, even if they win the cases before court. Talk will ruin sales. And models dont want to talk in a microphone. And the company chiefs dont want to alert and bug the customers. And what should they say : " Porn with 15-17 year old girls is now illegal, please burn it ? " They eradicated the customer lists - if they had one - and later were forced to burn the negatives. That was it. "If true, then why are people being charged and convicted for possessing her images?" Nobody in Europe was EVER convicted of possessing her image. Tiny Tove here is a bad example. ( Or a good one, depending on the point of view ) She was 18. And as far as I know, the law, that someone who only LOOKS younger, can also be subsumized under "child porn", was dismissed and rejected by the US Surpreme Court. "The initial Fed law, 18 USC 2252, went into effect in February, 1978, and the definition of minor was 16." Exactly. But there were no US porn movies made between 1978-1981 with 16 and 17 year old models, or ? ( Officially, not the 17 year olds who claimed they were already 18, like Traci Lords etc. ) [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Sep 27 2007 : 12:16PM "According to my information, and I'm not 100%: 15 is the age when a person is legally allowed to rent, buy and watch porn in many European countries" No, laws changed, I am not so sure about Denmark NOW, because some DVDs still have a "15" seal. Maybe a danish member can help : The Hardcore version of "All about Anna", a very sophisticated but hardcore porn movie, is classified as " 15 years and over " ( in Germany and NL : 18 ) Some recent danish porn movies have a "18" seal, but I think this is only for export. But all other countries have raised it. But they had ( like NL, BEL, Spain, etc. ) a 16 limit, never 15. "However, 18 is the age when a person is legally allowed to perform any type of sex-work." No, this isnt true, if you look back in the recent past. Unless 6 months ago, street prostitution was legal in Germany as low as 16, ( paradoxically : normal prostitution wasnt, it was only allowed for adults ) unless 5 years ago, playing in porn was legal with 15 in DK and 16 in NL, BEL and some other countries. This only changed in 2002/3. "all require a minimun age of 18 before they employ someone." Now, but not in the 90s. I know 5 girls personally, who played in porn between 15-17 in the 90s. And one is my best girlfriend ;-) They are very upset about all this, that her movies are now criminalized, at least morally. [Link] |
LCF  All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05 | Posted - Sep 27 2007 : 2:32PM [Link] |
| Jacco All-Star Member "liable to deprave and corrupt" 2673 Posts 5/04 | Posted - Sep 27 2007 : 9:14PM Jacco [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 6:54AM But this changed with the last law reforms ! All porn movies now are 18+ only. It is no longer possible to buy/rent porn with 16. You can also watch the law changes in european countries, if you watch the GÜFA infos of a videocassette from the 90s and look at the GÜFA infos NOW. Some countries had a 16 year old minimum age for porn, all now have raised it to 18. [Link] |
| Jacco All-Star Member "liable to deprave and corrupt" 2673 Posts 5/04 | Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 7:19AM Jacco [Link] |
| LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05 | Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 8:07AM [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 8:36AM "classifications: All ages, 6, 12 and 16." And 18. I dont know if you only have porn movies pre-2003. But please look at the newer titles. They are sold for adults ( now 18 ) only. I bought some of the newer Seventeens - even if they arent as good as the old ones - and they have a 18-seal, are classified as "18 only", are sold/rent only to 18 year olds and over, and they have only models above 18 ( § 240 was changed 01.10.2002 ). Porn now is automatically "18 only". The NICAM is no longer in charge for hardcore porn. ( With the exception of softporn, Playboy etc.) But because of all the law changes we had past 2002, all this is very confusing. Edited by - Caroline-NL on 9/28/2007 8:47:07 AM [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 8:51AM Until 2003 it was possible to play in porn prior 18, depending on the country where you lived. Edited by - Caroline-NL on 9/28/2007 8:51:40 AM [Link] |
| LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05 | Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 11:14AM Laws about consent and allowance to do porn are different but I see your point [Link] |
| Jacco All-Star Member "liable to deprave and corrupt" 2673 Posts 5/04 | Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 1:43PM Jacco [Link] |
| frodo Member 18 Posts 12/05 | Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 2:02PM "I know of some cases where it failed miserably." If you can cite the cases, that would help. The problem is you have to be able to produce evidence to a judge that it failed. The government is producing case law where it's been accepted, and offering medical experts, usually those involved in child maltreatment. Even if the defense produces another doctor, it just becomes dueling experts for the jury to determine who's more credible. The foundation, Tanner Staging, is given a pass. "Of course the companies have to inform the customer. And they dont do it, because of the media hysteria." What I meant was an adult porn site, let's say in the U.S., which contains all adults, 18 and over. They haven't been charged, but a customer has. Much like Kelly Hoose. The images are tracked back to the company site. So what obligation does the company have when they are informed that one of their customers have been charged with their images, adult images that only they have the records for? Media hysteriacy versus time in prison. "If you get back to the USA, how would it be, if CANADA had a 21-year age limit, and forces the USA to adapt this ?" You're right, it's typical of U.S. bullying. We want the world to follow our laws, and when we change them, we want everyone else to change them as well. That's why most 'terrorist' and 'child safety' legislation is linked to a global framework. "Exactly. But there were no US porn movies made between 1978-1981 with 16 and 17 year old models, or ?" But they would be faced with the state law. I'm not an expert but I believe most porn back then was produced in California, and the age of consent has been 18 in California for decades. There probably was some produced with under 18 models, but only those involved would know. [Link] |
| frodo Member 18 Posts 12/05 | Posted - Oct 5 2007 : 2:58PM "That wasnt a problem, they controlled her birth certificate. This is really the easiest thing, to check the birth date." An update on that blog discussing the prosecution of Tove images. Seems there was a legal request for Tove records, and Color Climax responded that they had no records. If so, what are they telling Jacco and the other distributors who are at risk? [Link] |
| LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05 | Posted - Oct 5 2007 : 4:41PM Can a penal law be retroactive? can CC be requested to comply a law not yet written when they hired Tove? also they weren't an American Company at the time So they are requested to prove they complied an American law back in the Eighties in Europe? Where's the camera? this must be a joke Edited by - Laurie Cameron Fan on 10/5/2007 4:49:36 PM [Link] |
| Hardware All-Star Member Your other left 14594 Posts 3/02 | Posted - Oct 5 2007 : 5:11PM [Link] |
| davecummings Member 368 Posts 12/02 | Posted - Oct 7 2007 : 2:17AM To learn a LOT more go to www.freespeechcoalition.com and click on the link on the LH side to "2257" and the links within THAT link. Dave mod: snipped the quote Edited by - hardware on 10/7/2007 9:05:01 AM [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Oct 13 2007 : 2:56PM ""I know of some cases where it failed miserably."" "If you can cite the cases, that would help." Most of these are personal informations I cant cite. But you can look at the "Hardcopy" TV show I already mentioned. There they used the Thanner Scale and valueated the real age too low. E.g. models that were 16 or 17 were misjudged as 13 or 14. Sadly I didnt saved it, but if I would save every important file, I would have had 100s of files on my old computer, but Ive read that CCC went already to court in UK, when they changed the age minimum from 16 to 18 in 2000 or 2001. Tiny Tove was always about 18, they had no proofs on files, but her birthdate is known ( and was checked ). And when you know when the movie was filmed, nobody has to be a math genius to find that out. I think the FBI ( or who is responsible ) wants a proof on file, that isnt existing. ( Almost nobody had this until the mid-90s in Europe, excluding the few companies exporting solely to the USA ) If Tiny Tove wouldnt be 18, and this ISNT so, then CCC could have used all the material with other young women, playing in porn with 15-17 year olds. This material was for sale in Europe, until a few years ago, when more and more countries changed the law, but never in the USA. Never. No, they were lucky, that TT was one of the few, who started as late as 18 with porn. In the 70s, many started with 15,16 or 17. So this all makes no sense. And it is well known in Denmark, that she started as late as 18. Frodo, Ive just read the blog you posted - Ive written a comment and this summarizes it all - but it now all makes sense, that the TT "case" was before a british court, because her homepage is hosted by a well known english pornographer. If you look long enough with a very good search engine ( would prefer "all the web" instead of Google ) maybe you still find something about the "TT vs. UK Justice ministry". Another important point not really pointed out in the blog is, and this can be the MOST IMPORTANT, the US state officials have demanded a proof on file from Color Climax. But WHICH Color Climax ? The company now is owned by German Beate Uhse Video, and they dont have the old files. There is danish VIDCOM, which owns a small part of the CCC heritage, and at least two other companies, who claim this and even sued other ones, claiming this. And there is the old CCC, who now is only a internet company, and they dont have any files at all. There is also a strange norway branch of "Farb-Trenn", which was a sort of missing link between dutch and german teen porn. Some german Seventeen porn movies where distributed by "Farb-Trenn". But the companies adress was in Oslo, Norway. Many of the old Teen Age porn movies ( 15-17 year olds ) for sale in Germany, have this "Farb-Trenn" label. The construct of "CCC" even in the 70s, with dozens of sublabels but also several sub-companies, is the most complicated even in porn history. And now it is even more complicated ! If US officials demand proofs from the other Teen Models in the MUSKETEER DVDs, then we have not one case, but several dozen. Edited by - Caroline-NL on 10/13/2007 3:37:05 PM [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Oct 13 2007 : 3:15PM "Can a penal law be retroactive?" Yes, and that is the biggest problem of the Sec.2257 laws. Logic says no, but the law says yes. "can CC be requested to comply a law not yet written when they hired Tove?" Yes, if they offer their movies in the States. "So they are requested to prove they complied an American law back in the Eighties in Europe? Where's the camera? this must be a joke" It is a BAD joke. They have to comply to a law that : a.) was in a foreign country b.) in a country that isnt belonging to the European Union c.) that wasnt even existing in the 70s [Link] |
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| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Oct 13 2007 : 3:19PM "They can't be tried for having made the movie, assuming it was all legal at the time, but they can be tried for continuing to sell it." Yes, and even this is only partly true. Because of the worldwide adaption of 2257, some countries even try to prosecute the production of former legal teen-porn movies. [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Oct 13 2007 : 4:39PM This is a joke ! " Please know however, that CC has always used a strict company policy of only hiring models of 18 years of age or older " Ha,ha, he has to add, as late as 1987. They have produced 3 dozen childporn movies and above 100 magazines with childporn until 1979. How can he claim, that " CC has always (.....) models of 18 age or older. " ? This is a rotten lie !!!!!!!!! This is really sarcastic...... But apart from this criminal ( but sadly THEN not illegal ) terrible childporn decade, they produced genuine teen porn ( 15-17 ) between 1980-1987. CCC ceased production of new porn movies in late 1986 or early 87. My danish girlfriend made one of her last movies with 16 in 1986. But he doesnt mention, that TTs age was already checked and re-checked. Maybe the CCC heads dont told him that, because they dont want to wake sleeping dogs. Or he doesnt know. It isnt true, that all papers were lost, Candy was a subsidiary of CCC. Many papers were "lost" in late 1979, because of the banning of childporn in Denmark 1980. But not all. Many papers of the subsidiary companies were transported to CCC or Rodox. ( Rodox is the sister company of CCC, but no subsidiary ). Oh, oh, this isnt looking good. The US officials will tear the " CC has always used a strict company policy of only hiring models of 18 year of age or older " down, because it is an idiotic lie. Why arent they telling the truth ? How many of these "MUSKETEER" DVDs are distributed in the USA ? [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Oct 13 2007 : 5:06PM Tell them, that Tove was born on 23 April 58. The CCC movies we are talking about were made in 1978 and 1979. So she was at least 19/20 !!!!! Only this movies are on the DVDs. Not even her very first with 18. If they cant or use the results of the british jury: The legal defenders only have to buy the original catalogues or the original 8mm movies. Its still possible to obtain these in the danish collectors market, but they are expensive. A movie copyrighted in 1978 cant be distributed in 1976, or ? ( Maybe today this is a clever trick, but please remember, in this decade childporn was still legal ! So it makes no sense to manipulate this. ) If this isnt enough proof, I cant help ! [Link] |
| Dracula Member Women's necks are too damned sexy for me! 756 Posts 3/06 | Posted - Oct 13 2007 : 5:26PM [Link] |
| LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05 | Posted - Oct 13 2007 : 5:35PM [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Oct 14 2007 : 11:02AM But we have this form of control in every branch of our economy, even Wall Street is monitored by the SEC. I think, if the european porn industry had showed more responsibility in the 70s and until the mid-80s, and NEVER produced childporn, all this control systems were never adapted. Or much, much later. Yes, the statement of the "US" CCC man is very dumb. I fear too, that the officials now dont believe anything. Even not a danish birth certificate, that was checked and re-checked by a notary public. But what do they want ? Its relatively easy to check her age, Ive already written it. Why are high paid US defending laywers not able to draw the conclusions I can draw ? [Link] |
| frodo Member 18 Posts 12/05 | Posted - Oct 19 2007 : 3:26PM "But you can look at the "Hardcopy" TV show I already mentioned. There they used the Thanner Scale and valueated the real age too low." Court files connected to government witnesses is what is needed. "But WHICH Color Climax ? The company now is owned by German Beate Uhse Video, and they dont have the old files." I don't see where Beate Uhse bought CC. I'm told that CC split licensing rights (Mags,Internet,DVD/Video) among several companies and CC Copenhagen's Tom Johnson is the point man for any records. There was a post of an CC [ invalid url ] on another forum from the Feb. 1984 issue of Club magazine. The article describes CC as a well respected tax paying business with a reputation for quality standards and top of the line equipment. It also mentions the talent: "The girls come here on a business basis. They sign model release forms..." CC was recognized as a legitimate business, which for tax reasons alone would require them to keep reliable records. The model release forms would also be needed to secure U.S. copyright registration. So you're right, they are lying about not having any records. Vidcom (Vicom) is not associated with CC. They bought the rights to several of CC's competitor products, but a lot of the same models can be found under both labels, as Film Labs A/S was selling their productions to various parties. "Tell them, that Tove was born on 23 April 58." Where does that date come from? If it's from a court case then why did CC create this elaborate lie? Edited by - frodo on 10/20/2007 12:51:48 PM [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Oct 20 2007 : 7:38AM Toves birthdate is not only mentioned in the imdb.com, but it was also mentioned in the UK case. Sadly I didnt saved it, because I never thought anybody would question her birthdate. I dont remember the exact date, but her birthyear. I asked my danish girlfriend, many danish newspapers wrote about her in the 70s and early 80s, and the birthdate is also given. These old newspapers arent in the net, but you can read them on microfiche. ( I also studied some on the university in Amsterdam ) CCC very reliable ? Well respected tax payer ? Yes, but their complicated sub-company structure was a way to minimize tax fees. And Rodox had troubles with the danish IRS then. Rodox later evolved into one of the largest danish investment companies. To get back to the CCC archive: Its true, they had model data sheets in the mid-80s and later. But they dont had them in the 70s. I am not 100% when they started the data sheets, but I think after 1980, when childporn was banned. They had to prove, that the models where 15 age and over. Filmlab A/S was the original name of the former 8mm duplicating factory and later was another branch of the CCC 8mm/Video imperium. But I doubt that one single man really understands the whole company structure of CCC. Its strange, VIDCOM mailed me a year ago, that they had the sole rights of the classic CCC compilations. I never heard anything about "MUSKETEER" media before, I only saw these DVDs in Germany. Because the release of NEW DVDs with < 18 year old models will result in deep trouble in the Netherlands. ( renewed § 240 ) Its strange, that they are targetting the adult (!) TT, but dont examine the other Teenage models in these movies. Edited by - Caroline-NL on 10/20/2007 7:56:40 AM [Link] |
| XXXTACEE Member 7 Posts 10/07 | Posted - Oct 20 2007 : 9:02AM [Link] |
| frodo Member 18 Posts 12/05 | Posted - Oct 20 2007 : 1:23PM Musketier Media says they have distribution rights thru EP Productions in Copenhagen, which is Ervin Petersen, who apparently has the DVD/Video rights from CC, and has his own site (registered) since 1996. Maybe Vicom was in the running and lost out, or had some other issues. It's all pretty confusing, which is ironic since CC was (minus the CP) engaging in a legal enterprise. Musketier's CC site (climaxmagazines) claims it is the official CC site, and proudly promotes Tove material, probably relying on Ervin Petersen for past records, which CC claims it does not have. Sounds like a good screenplay: Porn, International Intrigue, the Feds, Vintage Stars in flashback, conspiracies... [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Oct 20 2007 : 3:43PM If you look in the danish web. Vidcom is still offering some old VHS and 2 dozen DVDs with CCC material ( and TT), claiming they are the only legal inheritor of the rights. I can only remember reading about a very complicated copyright struggle among CCC ( in 1987 ), when several branches of CCC sued other ones. I think it is no coincidence, that in late 1986/early 1987, the real CCC stopped production of NEW movies. Do you know anything about the strange "Farb-Trenn" company ? "Farb-Trenn" seems to be a missing link between the OLD Seventeen (Video Art Holland) movies, CCC and several other danish labels. "Farb-Trenn" is a german technical term and means " colour division ", if I am informed correctly, this term is used in the production process of 8mm movies. ( "Farb-Trenn" evolved out of a branch of "Filmlab A/S" ) Some of the old Teen Porn movies from VAH ( also with 16+17 year old models ) and smaller danish labels ( associated or NOT with CCC ),who had models between 15-17, were issued under the "Farb-Trenn" Label. ( company adress was in OSLO, Norway ) But the movies had mostly german synchro, sometimes english or dutch. Yes, all of this is really a very good story for a movie. Lies, terrible childporn, "lost" data sheets, a totally confusing company structure, that has more fractions as the marxist-leninist movement, idiotic law changes, that criminalize Teen Porn, the FBI neglecting all facts regarding a mature porn star, innocent porn customers who are arrested, because they own "childporn". A porn company that wants to surpress the facts about its dark history. I think we should email Oliver Stone, or ? Add: I just remember from the mail, that Vicom (Vidcom) only had the rights for several dozens of CCC movies. They dont mailed me why. But almost all of these movies, if I look at the 8mm originals, were released under the "Playboy" sub-label. This label has nothing to do with the US magazine, of course, but Rodox was getting in trouble, when they started to export the movies to the USA, because Playboy Magazine dont wanted to be connected with hardcore porn (then). So they dropped the "Playboy" label later and made the first compilations out of this material, when VHS/V2000/Beta entered the market. They also cut off the first seconds of the trailer, "Playboy Movies", so that these short movies start with the title only. Edited by - Caroline-NL on 10/20/2007 3:55:05 PM [Link] |
| sam46 Deactivated User 564 Posts 1/07 | Posted - Oct 20 2007 : 4:14PM [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Oct 20 2007 : 4:15PM And he totally surpresses to mention the age of the models. This isnt important at the moment, because Germany still has the low 14-years minimum of age regarding porn, but they are forced to raise it to 18 in January,2008. And many models in the "Teenage Porn" CCC were 16 and especially 17. Only very, very few 15. But even if they dont re-release the porn movies with models, who are obviously 15 ( sorry Döerte....) , if they even dont have the data sheets of the most famous model TT, then they dont have the contracts of almost unknown models, or ?! If german law authorities demand a proof in 2008, that model "Siv" was 18 at the time of production and not 17, then how can they prove that ? I doubt, that they still have the papers, where her real name is written on. And so, nobody has to be a fortune teller, to forecast a big "Childporn" scandal in Germany ( and many other countries ) in 2008. Edited by - Caroline-NL on 10/20/2007 4:23:46 PM [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Oct 20 2007 : 4:19PM material. What was concealed with what ? [Link] |
| sam46 Deactivated User 564 Posts 1/07 | Posted - Oct 20 2007 : 4:30PM The infamous Blackjack on 42nd always showed this stuff. [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Oct 20 2007 : 4:31PM http://www.colorclimax-dvd.at/shop_content.php?coID=9 Here we have the answer to many of the questions asked in this thread. I hope you can understand german. They hid it on the german side, but published it on the austrian. I can translate some statements into English, if you are interested. Edited by - Caroline-NL on 10/20/2007 4:34:40 PM [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Oct 20 2007 : 4:34PM Because Ribu ( as far as I know ) always worked with +18, as a german producer. It makes no real sense, that they take the risk, because the USA was one of the first countries worldwilde to ban porn < 18 years of age models. [Link] |
| frodo Member 18 Posts 12/05 | Posted - Oct 22 2007 : 5:10PM Got a rough English translation of the colorclimax-dvd site, and am surprised that CC allowed this history lesson, or maybe they don't know. Also wondering why there are two Austrian hosted sites selling the same color climax DVDs. It's interesting that after detailing CC's illegal business interests, they state: "Among them, there is no illegal material, assures the Musketeer Media Ltd. All films are in terms of the participating performers and actors have been examined. The same is true especially for adventure and first title of the "Teenage Best" series." Which again begs the question, what was examined if CC says they have nothing to examine? Like you mentioned, a lot at stake if no one can connect the dots when the government comes calling. UPDATE: Here's an interesting twist. At the other forum, the Swedish Erotica Catalog #8 was posted (vintage-erotica-forum.com/index.php/topic,14016.50.html)and uploaded by Reachman. Film #293 is entitled, "Patsy Learns To Play." It's the U.S. title for the Tove film, "Teenage Tricks" which the U.S. says contains an underage Tove Jensen. Need to rewrite the screenplay. Edited by - frodo on 10/22/2007 6:11:22 PM Edited by - frodo on 10/23/2007 4:40:03 PM [Link] |
| LCF All-Star Member Non Prevalebunt! 10364 Posts 1/05 | Posted - Oct 23 2007 : 10:38AM I'm not a mod here but I think it should be better if you remove that link Edited by - Laurie Cameron Fan on 10/23/2007 10:40:16 AM [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Oct 23 2007 : 11:31AM "that CC allowed this history lesson" Austria has the US laws for nearly 3 or 4 years. Many videostore/sexshop owners had trouble with old dutch and scandinavian Teen porn movies with 15-17 year olds. Before the law changed, they also had the low 14 minimum age limit. Now they even confiscate old Playboys ( German Playboy had one 16-year old model and two 17 year old ones in the late 80s, early 90s) as "childporn magazines". A very bad boulevard tabloid is dominating the austrian newspaper market, so the pressure on porn companys in Austria is very high, to defend itself. If you look at the german CCC site, there is the usual promo blabla text, the austrian is much more complex and self criticial. In two points too criticial, I dont understand, why they castigate animal porn, it has nothing to do with cp. And I dont understandd, why they lift out Bodils fate, it has nothing to do with animal porn in toto. You can find as many tragic curriculum vitae in normal porn or in the "non-porno" normal life. Years ago Ive talked with a woman who performed in animal porn, and she was very happy and enjoyed horse plays. "Also wondering why there are two Austrian hosted sites selling the same color climax DVDs." Thats not all, there are 4 danish hosted sites, three of them selling the same cc dvds. And one of them is claiming, they are the only real successor of CCC !!! "Which again begs the question, what was examined if CC says they have nothing to examine?" Yes. In DK the posession and buying/selling of 15-17 year old porno material is still tolerated, even if they have changed the laws in 2003 too. If they examine the old movies, then they only can do this in DK ( without a real law certainty ) and only 100% secure in Germany. Its no wonder, that "Musketeer" is somehow based in Germany. With the old pre-1980 material there is another problem, you cant know/see, if the model is really 15. ( From 1980 on, danish government controlled porn companys very strictly. I dont know of ONE single case, were a girl/boy under 15 played in a commercial porn movie. ) So pre-1980, there is no real paperwork at all. And the pre-1980 papers "vanished" mysteriously. ( Some say, they were burned ) You quote: " It's the U.S. title for the Tove film, "Teenage Tricks" which the U.S. says contains an underage Tove Jensen. Need to rewrite the screenplay. No, no, frodo. Ive said it before, this was checked in Europe. Otherwise they would have confiscated it. Especially Sweden and Austria are very strict now, and you have just seen, that they are offered and distributed in Austria. There is also a database EUROPOL uses ( they have their headquarter here in the Netherlands, in Den Haag ). Many birthdates of porn actors are saved here. ( Of course its only open to police officiers, state attorneys, legal prosecutors etc. ) If there really would have been a slight uncertainty, especially austrian authorities would have taken legal steps. And if her birthdate was correct, and this was checked in Europe, she was 19 when she did this movie. Are the US FBI agents innumerate morons ? Sorry, but I dont believe anything from the US authorities anymore. Where are the weapons of mass destruction in Iraque ? The tons of commercial childporn produced in the NLs after 1985, the year the production of cp was finally forbidden ? All of this never existed ! Especially the problem of cp and child molesting is too important to work with exaggerations here ! TT wasnt 17. But apart from that, 15-17 year old girls are no children at all. Its idiotic to use police manpower to seizure old Playboys or even old hardcore porn with 15-17 year old girls, who had done this out of a free will, and on the other side, little children are molested and beaten, but there is nobody able to help them, because a whole department of the FBI is researching if TT was 17 1/2 or 18. I am really, really angry about that ! When will this madness end ? Another point : There are still some false statements regarding CCCs CP on the austrian site. But I have sent them an email to reply, before I will elaborate this here. ------------------------------------------------------ Is anybody still interested in a short english synopsis of the CCC Austria press information ? [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Oct 23 2007 : 11:36AM Edited by - Caroline-NL on 10/23/2007 11:41:29 AM [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Oct 23 2007 : 11:40AM @Laura Cameron Fan : You are right, TT is 100% legal, but I dont like links to illegal downloads of copyrighted material. Maybe he hasnt seen this. Sadly it isnt possible to send him an email. Have you noticed a moderator ? [Link] |
| frodo Member 18 Posts 12/05 | Posted - Oct 23 2007 : 4:59PM I removed the direct link and left the url. The site is owned and administered by IMCO (Seventeen) in the Netherlands, another player in the CC puzzle. So my feeling is they have ultimate responsibility over the site. But I understand your concerns. @caroline-NL Don't know if it was FBI or not. The U.S. has several departments and components that investigate cp, in addition to the task forces and state law enforcement. The feds thrive on numbers, so little fish are more important to them from a resource, legislative and fear-mongering perspective. [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Oct 25 2007 : 7:19AM "administered by IMCO (Seventeen) in the Netherlands, another player in the CC puzzle." Strange, if they really administer the site, I really doubt, that they would allow free downloads of their movies, as Ive have seen it in this forum. But please tell no tales that more belong to the "Lord of the Rings", frodo ;-) Seventeen is NO player in the CC puzzle. They have not and they never had real connections with CC. There are only very few loose threads. e.g. one danish model played in the last TB and in early 17 Videos. On the "Farb-Trenn" label, their videos, but also CCs were distributed in Scandinavia and Germany. But thats all. [Link] |
| Mr. Sausage Deactivated User 330 Posts 11/06 | Posted - Oct 25 2007 : 6:21PM If you can't have sex on film for money then it should be illegal until you can do it for money or/and on film. Because that's hypocritical. Another women's issue, prostitution. I do not understand why prostitution is illegal. Why should prostitution be illegal. Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal? You know, why should it be illegal to sell something that's perfectly legal to give away. I can't follow the logic on that at all. Of all the things you can do to a person, giving someone an orgasm is hardly the worst thing in the world. In the army they give you a medal for spraying napalm on people. Civilian life, you go to jail for giving someone an orgasm. Maybe I'm not supposed to understand it. George Carlin http://www.iceboxman.com/carlin/pael.php Edited by - Mr. Sausage on 10/25/2007 6:23:26 PM [Link] |
| caroline-NL Member 543 Posts 3/07 | Posted - Oct 26 2007 : 9:16AM "If you can't have sex on film for money then it should be illegal until you can do it for money or/and on film." Thats really hypocritical. And in some countries in Europe, only a few years ago, there wasnt a divided minimum age. Critics of this said, its important to save the youths, and this is a point partly true. I dont want 15-year old girls in a "Max Hardcore" type of porn. But the state could divide porn in normal porn and extreme hardcore, or if this is too difficult and time consuming, they could give a seal to caring and responsible companys, who could produce porn with 15-17ers. But below that age I would say " NO ! ", sex under 15 shouldnt be filmed. You can make a law, that admits sex with 12-15 year old Teens, but only, if there isnt a complaint of one of the partners. ( We had a similiar law until 5 years ago in the Netherlands, sex was legal with 12-15, but filming was NOT ) Yes, then we have the contradiction ( Sex = Legal, filming = taboo ) again, but at a much more realistically minimum age. But filmed sex of 16 and 17 year old - nearly adults - now is categorized as "childporn". This is stupid. You can fuck a 16-year old girl in most States, but if you film it, you are a "child molester and producer of childporn". And I am talking - of course - only about sex and filming out of a free decision. I think these laws are really mad. [Link] |
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