I think the quality would be rewarded by demand.

Or, if you are up for it, shoot the pop first, and go again later.

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Interesting comments. I just want to say that every bloke knows when he is a couple of seconds away from ejaculating and it's often getting to that t-3secs point that is the hard bit (I've not made porn but I've had sex when I'm not really up for it and had to 'take matters into my own hands' as it were). After your hour long stint why could it not be handled so that you get yourself to that point of no return and then the girl takes over for those final couple of seconds.

Sir Noel.

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I reversed the situation in my head. I have never felt wierd when a woman is touching her clitoris when I am having intercourse with her(especially anal) and if it makes her cum quicker or better, GOOD! The problem is that most guys can't cum on camera-time anyways (or stay hard for that matter,) so expecting them to get off from the woman is just not gonna happen 100% of the time. I would like to see it more, but its just not feasible because of the situation.

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The only thing that prevents these kinds of scenes, from a performer's perspective, is, as you say, the climate of having to film marathon sessions. But I don't believe that the ONLY reason "quick" sessions were filmed in the past was because of not wanting to get discovered. It certainly had some part to play, but the whole attitude towards what was presented on screen was different.

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Kissing, by the way, is so universally avoided by the talent, that it should take on a forbidden feel. A lot girls who will take a facial, a dp, or even be slapped won't let themselves be kissed. When you get a scene with people who are kissing and can't keep their hands off each other, it looks ten times as hot to me.

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Also, in terms of sexual heat, seeing a guy jerking off doesn't really do anything for me at all. Seeing him orgasm because of something related to his partner is much more satisfying.

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Why did you use the term "natural" and not something like "realistic"? Why did you put the term between inverted commas? And why did you use the term style for describing kinds or types of action?

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I agree completely, seeing performers kissing and really caressing each other as though they are making love, not just performing sex is HOT HOT HOT! We get more compliments on our videos because the women in them kiss like they mean it. (They do, too!)

Combine that with a natural "pop shot" and that would really be a winner!

Kurt

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Henri Pachard

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yesportal
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Edited by - lindi on 3/4/2003 10:31:12 PM

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Well done.

DenverDon

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Also, I'm far from the first person to use "natural" in this discussion - I was just going along with the crowd.

Something tells me that you're just playing Devil's Advocate here...so cut it out. <grin>

Edited by - Mythsong on 3/4/2003 11:38:02 PM

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Hamilton Steele
www.hamiltonsteele.net

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Actually, I find your statement rather disturbing - at least without further explanation. I *seems* as if, by saying that, you don't care about the women and you treat them as objects to be used in the scene. I hope that's not the case, and that you actually do care about them. Speaking personally (and I'll certainly grant that this is just me) if I had an issue with kissing somebody I'd have a far *greater* issue with having sex with them - because sex is so much more emotional. (And if I ever got to the point where I *didn't* feel anything during sex, I'd walk out.)

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H.P.

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It is perhaps an understandable thing to do but in a way I can't help viewing it as rather bizarre.

I have a mental picture of a me picking up a girl in a nightclub, taking her home, and when I try to kiss her she says 'Easy tiger! This is only our first night together, maybe we should just stick to assfucking till we get to know each other a bit better'.

Or what about the next day when I see my gf and she wants to know where the hell I was and I say 'Don't worry babe, I did meet a girl last night,but I promise, I never kissed her! Honestly, we went no further than anal and maybe a bit of watersports'. She'd reply 'Well you better not be lying to me, you know how hurt I'd be if you'd kissed!'

Sir Noel,
Formulator-in-chief of unlikely scenarios.

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See, I don't get this at all either, but I hear it a lot from porn performers who are in relationships, and it just kills it for me. It's not that I'm unsympathetic, but I don't want to see it, there is enough bad, passionless porn.

If you're going to make your living by having sex, you should probably learn to leave that at the door, only work with your partner, or get into another profession.

Do you think directors would put up with Brad Pitt saying "Oh, I can't kiss her, Jennifer might get mad"? Would they let Melanie Griffith refuse to kiss anyone but Antonio? No way in hell, and sex isn't even their vocation.

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About the topic that is being discussed here. I like passionate kissing too, but I think that 1) kissing is not the only sign of passion, e.g. fucking can be passionate as well and 2) kissing can be done in the same passionless way as fucking. So the presence or absence of kissing per se, doesn't tell me much about the passion or emotional impact of a scene.

Furthermore, compare these 2 statements:

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When I say I prefer kissing, what I really mean is that I prefer scenes that show compassion and an emotional bond between the performers.

As you said at the beginning of your reply, you *can* kiss without passion, and you can also have sex, without kissing, but *with* passion. I understand that, and I know where you're coming from, but I tend to think that those two situations are just exceptions to a general rule.

So, in quote 1, yes I prefer emotional content over mechanical action.

In quote 2, I wasn't talking about what I see on the film, I was talking about my own personal life and extrapolating it to personal relationships of the performers in real life - as they carry out the scene with each other. (So, what happens in front of the camera in terms of the actors - not what appears on film for the viewer to see. Although the two are somewhat closely linked.)

To put my second statement in a more personal perspective, if I were to ever act in an adult movie (don't anybody hold your breath here <grin>) I would only do so in scenes involving other performers with whom I had an emotional connection. Further, this would be a connection that I would have to feel would survive stepping away from the studio. (In other words, I'd have to feel that I could be friends with the person.) I, performing, could never have sex with anybody unless I were first comfortable with kissing them. Not only is kissing an extremely important part of foreplay and excitement for me, but it establishes the kind of initial contact from which actual sex progresses.

So, yes, to me sex *is* more emotional than kissing. Which is why I find it so "wrong" to see sex performed *without* any kissing, because it serves to invalidate the extremely emotional aspect of sex that I feel in my own life.

But mechanical, emotionless sex is not passionate at all - is far less passionate than a simple kiss. And, having said the above, it's something that I'd feeling intensely awkward engaging in. (Because to have sex without emotion is to be like a robot and I don't really understand how anybody can feel that way when their engaged in something which, should be at least, extremely personal.)

So - going back to what Hamilton said - perhaps it's not so much the lack of kissing itself that's bothering me, but the implication that there CAN BE NO feelings of any kind for the other person. (Which, I suppose, kissing engenders in some way that most male peformers find, in a fashion I can't understand and feel to be somewhat perverse, not to be the case with "just sex".) It's the lack of acknowledgement that there's a highly personal interaction going on with the other person that's disturbing. This lack of a "bond" is what makes it appear "unnatural" to me.

And, as DB says, mainstream actors kiss all the time, and actually deal with the other person as a person. (Along with all of the jealousy issues, etc.) Why should adult actors be any different? Yes, it would be harder to deal with, but that doesn't mean it would be impossible, or that it shouldn't be dealt with. (I would think that internalizing and compartmentalizing what's going on, distancing yourself from your emotions, and forcing yourself to treat a sex partner as an object rather than a subject, can only do harm to yourself, and others, in the long run.) If it's really so hard to deal with at face value, honestly, then it would be healthier to step away and move onto something else that you can relate to.

I have no idea if this answered any of your questions or not...

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See RonK. Double everything isn't alway a good thing.

Edited by - Walter Burns on 3/5/2003 5:23:43 PM

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One last question, I swear. What do you mean with "emotion" in the following context:

Edited: I was too quick. There is more. It has to do with vraisemblance and performance (style). I don't trust representations of emotions when judging the "reality" of those emotions, as they happened in the pro filmic reality. Let's take this example:

Edited by - Walter Burns on 3/5/2003 5:22:42 PM

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Hamilton Steele
www.hamiltonsteele.net

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There is a difference between making love to a woman and having sex with her. I don't care how passionate the sex can be, if I'm not in love with her I'm not in love. Nothing can or will change that.

With that said, I'm only in love with one woman. Kelly is my reason for breathing. (Don't worry I won't get mushy)

Kissing is considered an act of intimacy between two people. And such a simple act of pressing your lips to someone is used to communicate a wide range of emotion.

There is the simple peck a person gives their mother to say. "Don't worry mom, I'm still your son and I'll miss you as I go off to college"

How about the kiss my wife gives me as she goes out the door to work. "I'll be find honey and I look forward to seeing after work."

And the one everyone wants...The big steamy from here to eternity kiss. "I love you, I want you and I choose you..." Actually in this kiss there is more emotion than I can put into words.

With that said, I only kiss Kelly like that. And no amount of money thrown at me will ever get me to do that.

I may not always enjoy the woman I'm working with but I always respect each and every single one of them. The are my friends, co-workers and the person(s) trusting me with their body. Sometimes the sex I'm asked to do is aggressive or violent and I admit that sometimes the woman I'm working with gets more than she was expecting. And
yes after a very rough sex scene most performers are on a "high" from the ordeal.

(NOTE: I always stop the moment someone says "enough" or "cut." I let them know they say the word and it ends before the scene begins and I don't give a rats ass how much stopping a scene might ruin a directors shot. NO MEANS NO!)

As for fans, they always want something more. And its a balance act trying to give them what they want. Most fans have a hard time understanding that we do have a lives when we aren't performing. The constant demands of "tell me more," "I want you to do" or "what does your family say," never appear to end. It's hard saying no but it has to be done.

As perfomers we understand we give up the right to the privacy most civilians enjoy but that doesn't mean we give up the right to a personal life. In that respect many actors draw a line and don't cross it. Both Kelly and I adore fans and we are willing to give everything we can to them. Afterall, its the fans that make or break us. But we can't give everything away because at the end of the day there would be nothing left for ourselves.

And when performers do this they fill the void with drugs, alcohol or in some cases suicide.

So I hope this clears things up. And I probably won't be able to respond back to this any time soon. But I'm sure it will start a new debate.

Hamilton Steele
www.HamiltonSteele.net

Edited by - Hamilton Steele on 3/5/2003 9:03:57 PM

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While I, personally, still find it a little strange to say that "kissing is considered an act of intimacy between two people", and NOT to say the same thing to an even greater degree of sex (I was raised to firmly believe that there's nothing more intimate than sex), I DO understand your desire to only be intimate (in whatever form has meaning for you) with your wife. (Oh, and by the way, don't worry about getting "mushy" - more people should feel free to do so.)

I also appreciate the "un-harshifying" <grin> of your previous quick post. It's now obvious that the implications I read into it were quite unfounded, as I was hoping was actually the case.

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Edited by - Mythsong on 3/5/2003 11:28:34 PM

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Edited by - Mythsong on 3/5/2003 11:29:11 PM

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Also, while I'll accept lust, I'd like there to also be caring and concern for the other person (i.e. wanting to please her, making sure that she's also satisfied). In other words, they should be involved with each other - not just the "dojo" equivalent of sparring partners doing katas.

> Are you saying that sex without (cough) "love", is robotic
> and shallow?

No. Sex without any kind of emotion is robotic and shallow. Even a negative emotion would actually be an engagement of some sort - even if possibly wrong or disturbing.

I can open my mouth and scream at a certain decibel level, but that's a totally different thing than screaming at the same decibel level while at the same time having my face flushed, baring my teeth, and having tears stream down my cheeks.

Or, put another way, compare it to two actors reading their own scenes of a dialogue. Each one goes in, alone, and reads their own part. "He wanted a what?" (pause) "Really?" (pause) "That doesn't make any sense. (pause). And so on. Now edit the scenes together so that each separate "monologue" forms a dialogue. It would be stilted and appear as if neither actor is responding to the other. (They aren't.) While they say the words, there is no interplay. It obviously works much better when they are both in the room, listening to the other, and responding not just to the words on the page, but to how the other person interprets them.

Seeing a guy masturbate himself at the end of the scene, without regard for his partner, is the kind of emotional detachment I don't like. Even the slightest change of having him say in an excited / hurried voice to his partner, "Baby, you turn me on so much, I can't help myself!" would be an improvement - because it involves the other person and shows a connection between them. (Of course, I'd rather see more involvement than that - but the point is that what I don't want to see is, effectively, a solo scene with the woman in the picture as no more than scenery.)

Of course, if the guy actually is alone that's a different story. <grin>

Edited by - Mythsong on 3/5/2003 11:31:49 PM

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