Please forgive me for this diatribe. I put a good amount of thought before I started typing, and I'ts better that I am long winded, and understood, as opposed to concise, and misinterpreted. I am acutely aware of this subject first hand, from a professional standpoint, and as a semi consumers vantage as well. I can understand how my earlier comments on this thread may seem antecdotal, and/or aloof. I am prudent. By nature, I keep my politics close to my vest. This is after all a public forum, and I am activly doing scenes for Vivid. Earlier in my career, I have been requested by non contract girls, and others from within the company for scenes, only for them to fall through for various reasons. This has happend more than once. I chose to take the reasons for why the afore mentioned scenes fell through at face value. It does'nt serve me to either look for ulterior motives, or to speculate as to whether its true, or racialy motivated. I have a finte amount of time, and energy in any given day, and I choose to direct my thoughts, and resources elsewhere. Things that are within the realm of my control. Especially since there is no way to substantiate any race based theory. What I can say is that for the past year and a half, I have been, and continue to be put into Vivid's rotation of talent, and have not had a casting change, or scene cancel on me for any reason for a good dozen scenes in a row. Considering that it's porn we are talking about, that's quite remarkable. Vested interest or not, I can honestly reiterate that my experience with them has been extremely positive. All of the directors, front office personel, female talent, and ESPECIALY Savanna have been class acts, and I consider it my responsibility to reflect the same back to them. Especially since like it or not, I am kind of the de facto "point man" for other Black male talent, like the great Sean Michaels was before me, and the results, and experiences of my tenure with Vivid may have an impact on whether this direction will blossom, and grow to something great. I didn't ask for it, but it's a responsibility I take very seriously. Someone jokingly asked if I know Sean Michaels. I pick his brains for advice, and counsel with him constantly on matters regarding to porn, and normal life things. He is a mentor of sorts, and I hold him in very high regard.
che.There will always be a niche. It's not a bad thing. Some people get off by watching teen themed porn, some get off by watching M.I.L.F's, and yet others like pissing. To each their own. What one man find offensive is anothers stroke fodder. The key is for performers of color not to take the victim mentality, and be procative in aligning themselves with directors/companies that portray us responsibly. Even that in itself is very subjective.
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - Aug 20 2006 : 10:42PM
Tyler Knight wroteOr better yet, become directors themselves and begin forming more of their own quality production companies. This is something I'd definitely like to see happen.
So you would agree then that there has been a paradigm shift in Vivid's approach to interracial? That is, based on your more consistant success with them.
So you would agree then that there has been a paradigm shift in Vivid's approach to interracial? That is, based on your more consistant success with them.
Click to expand
Yes. I am living proof. I don't try to speculate as to why. I don't realy care. People to this day debate about the catalyst for the Civil War (certainly far more importaint than this topic). It's the end results that matter to me at the end of the day. Please excuse me while I go play World of Warcraft. I'm ADT'd out for now, and my level 60 Undead Warlock is waiting :-)
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - Aug 21 2006 : 12:23AM
Tyler Knight wroteAm I the only one thinking that this is a good idea for a polls thread?
Maybe things are changing Tyler. I'd sure like to think they were. You consider yourself a gonzo performer, so its tough to judge. Seems to me you should be getting asked to do way more feature stuff than you apparently are. Don't know how good you are with dialog, but you seem to have the looks, personality, charm, and sexual ability to do them more. If its something that you prefer to do only occasionally, then that is ok. If not, then again I'd have to wonder. I would hope and "think" you got asked to do them all the time.
As for Vivid becoming a haven for black performers like Tyler, Justin Slayer, Lex Steele, Mandingo, Jack Napier, Mr. Marcus, Sean Michaels, Naturner, Boz, J. Monty, Wesley Pipes, Dwayne Cummings, Julian St. Jox, Delvin Weed, Brian Pumper, Byron Long, and countless other black performers. I'm not holding my breath! Companies like Vivid are slaves to cable television. Like someone else said, it isn't a coincident that top black mainstream actors like Denzel, Will Smith, and Wesley Snipes, never seem to have onscreen romances with white actresses. So why would I be surprised that a porn company like Vivid would be any different. That unwritten rule has been around as long as I care to remember. Sure IR is a huge seller as It's always has been, but I doubt much of it is finding its way on tv.
IR, and cable sales are a non issue. I've shot countless scenes for Playgirl TV, which is distributed by Wicked, Adam & Eve, Penthouse, and Wicked as well. All of those companies shot cable versions 100% of the time I shot with them. Only 3 scenes amongst those companies were NOT interracial. Even in gonzo world, a good amount of the scenes I do are shot with a cable version as well.
Might be worth noting that casting for Vivid features does not necessarily emit from some "Vivid Brain Trust" but is done by directors, some of whom work freelance ... and only have to deal with the one constant of a contract girl who must appear in X number of scenes and has some degree of approval, I gather. People think there's some "single bullet theory" to this, but it's not.
Sounds like things may be changing after all. I like your optimism and attitude. I may sound pessimistic, but it isn't because I wanna be. Just feel like I've heard this all before. I guess time will tell.
The problem is that vivid doesn't seem to sign any black girls because it doesn't fit to there type anyway. This is the reason why black girls in porn don't last long then 1 or 2 years much as there white counterpart do That is why you don't see alot of black female performer at the AVN wards so much because they aren't nominee at all. As for black guy who do porn for a change most of them will directed, have there own series, and even there own company to make more money now these days. Pluse alot of girl who do IR are they open about IR and just have a goodtime doing the scene. But still it hard for a black person in the adult industiy with all of the racism towads black peformer.
Just on an aside,based on rumors and her long inactivity on myspace it seems that Briana banks is MIA, so the possibility of her doing a blackmailed movie may be a moot point, I'm still holding out hope that something can be worked out.
There are more company will make more IR with BM/WF on them, and not WM/BF. That type won't sale because there are a lack of white male peformer who do IR, and not the big named guys like Tommy Gunn or Randy Spear. Julia Ann is due an new IR scene with Sean Michael they soon, and Wicked could have a new Darkside series soon if the Julia Ann sale big. If IR get more cash, then more could be doing more IR scene. Pluse Black male pefomrer could get more too.
"Pimp anit Easy"
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the unknown pervert Deactivated User
I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch. 3243 Posts 5/06
Posted - Aug 27 2006 : 8:14PM
I have to admit "The Dark Side of Randy Spears" would probably tank.
Interesting addition to the "dodger" argument. I have never heard of a white male performer who would never do Black girls. Is there such a thing? If not, then a "Darkside" of any white male would be pointless...
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the unknown pervert Deactivated User
I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch. 3243 Posts 5/06
Posted - Aug 27 2006 : 10:37PM
Sorry there's no sarcasm smiley. I was thinking of the Jules Jordan m.o. of having IR just being part of many new things. The mental picture of Randy Spears doing anal and creampies was extremely disturbing.
You guy even been on Mr Marcus forum before, there most of them talk IR all the time, and even post about that we have talked about...
ADT is amazing. Everytime anything IR comes up you get the angry whitemen comming into the thread and making some amazingly stupid points and attactking every pro IR poster. What does the Mods over there do? Give the anti IR racists a pass and never scolds them for flaming anyone then they throw all the blame to pro IR crowd for starting shit. It never fails. The racket over there is the racists know they can get a thread locked by adding flaming posts to it and they are not shy about doing so. It seems like some of those people have joined here and are trying to chance this board to ADT lite.
Why Vivid or Wicked don't want to test a IR line that is doing well and making more money in adult industry then there own way. If they don't want to do it then other will spend there money elsewhere, and support company that do IR. The biggest IR gen right now is with BM/WF because the fanbase is mostly white girls or black males, but sometimes white guys. But still there is along way to go before raciam can go way in porn.
If you've got a problem with moderation, Pimp Daddy Kane, the acceptable method is to contact Steph or Drew, not hide behind what somebody on some other forum said.
I know any Vivid or Wicked people who post here know that I'm talking about the IR subject on here, and how do it impact on porn today, and should test this market out to the IR fans. Like they say, it doesn't hurt to try new thing out.
ADT prides itself on the fact that real porn stars post here. If the Pro-IR crowd were allowed to freely chastize them for thier racist behavior, those porn stars would quickly leave the board. Then all ADT would be left with is our perverted asses.
Over to the Marcus Board, Londo has discussed this in detail. He knows the couple who run this site. They don't like it any more than you do, and it only SEEMS like they are protecting the bigots and IR dodgers. They aren't. They are just trying to keep this forum from being hostile to porn stars.
If you want a perfect example of this, go find the Nikki Benz thread in Star Crossed. She was harrassed to the point of frustration by the pro-IR crowd, and of course defended vehemently by the bigots.
If I was to make a suggestion on a solution, it would be to have a single thread about IR that could never be locked. Then, every thread that goes that direction is locked and refrenced to the IR thread. That way people could air their opinions freely, but regular threads would not become a race baiting monkey-shit fights.
Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99
Posted - Sep 2 2006 : 11:29AM
I don't know what you guys are taking about. Why can't you be pro-IR without going around calling people racist? Hey guess what? You can be. There are moderators here who are pro-IR. Everything isn't black and white. It's not about keeping the pornstars here. It's about having a friendly forum where people can discuss porn without being categorized as either pro-IR or racist.
In terms of forum moderation we have banned many people for making racist comments. You guys don't know what goes on behind the scenes. Stop judging us based on the limited info you have. Stop judging performers based on that limited info. This shit got old a long time ago.
Try focusing on the positive.
And maybe if you guys could stick to the discussion at hand instead of constantly criticizing how we run the forum and starting in on the racist namecalling then threads would not get closed. Take some responsibility for how these threads always turn out.
btw - I met Londo once. He seems like a nice guy. I doubt that he would claim to know what goes on behind the scenes here.
Sometime my friend it just the way it seem?, back to the topic at hand here about Vivid, and IR. Back in the old days of Vivid they cast blacks peformer in there movies, but not anymore they don't or don't even don't even sign them as contract stars. For Vivid it just money to block out black peformer to make mony cash, but for black peformers it just racist. No matter if you are in the adult industy, hollywood, the sports world or other, Raciam is going to happen anywhere else. Some black male peformer will even have there own company to make more mony like Lexington Steele have, and so Justin Slayer with his line of work. But when the IR buck kept flying, then Vivid will started get into it and hire girl that will do IR.
Well IR's proved they could sell a long long time ago, so what the problem was I'll never know. That being said, not any IR series or titles will necessarily sell big. You can't just throw any white woman and black male together and think it is automatically gonna sell. If these feature companies think they can, I think they're gonna be in for a rude awakening. You Jenna, Savanna Samson, Brianna Banks, Jesse Jane, and Janine, and then you have everyone else. For me it just wouldn't be the same. I watch Janine and now Savanna because they turn me on. Most contract stars do nothing much for me though. And they damn sure don't have the same appeal for me as known IR's like Belladonna, Avy Scott, Lauren Phoenix, Trina Michaels, and Katja Kassin.
Because it is that simple. The definition of race prejudice is not ambiguous: discrimination based on race.
If you say "I will not have sex with XYZ race" that is racism. There really are no two ways about it. Now you can argue the marketing and financial motives of of the racist decision. Most people seem to agree that females who refuse to do Black men do so because they believe it will harm their income potential. But that does not mean that discriminating based on race for profit is any less racist than discriminating based on race out of fear or hatred.
A rose by any other name is still a rose. The shit gets deeper. I see very little resentment towards the white males who control this business who intimidate the females into capitulating to a race standard. It does not seem to bother the bigots on this board that these women endure pysical intimidation, outright violence, and even death threats over this issue. No, it is the Black people who CALL RACISM FOR WHAT IT IS who are made into villains on this board. Not the sociopathic bigtots like Vicky Vette's husband who beat his wife mercilessly.
For this reason you will always have some form of this discussion on your board. Ignoring the issue of race will not make it go away. It will only fester for a time and come back to the surface.
As far as Londo is concerned, I just assume that when he says he knows someone, he means it. I have no reason not to take him at his word.
Well you can't force anyone to have sex with someone else no matter their reasons. I'm gonna "call-out" any company that willingly allows it though. If sex-for-pay is indeed legal now, then porn companies can't hide behind discrimination anymore than any other business out there can as far as I'm concerned. They can't have it both ways! They've been getting away with it for far too long, and I'm always gonna call it as I always have.
Next issue will be the black male horse-hung only syndrome. Because of their iffy status, porn companies are allowed to get away with stuff more mainstream companies never could. I'm gonna call-em on it everytime I see it, which is often.
The decision to get into the Interracial market is plain and simple. Economics.
For business its about survival and profitability.
With the over saturation of the all white genre its makes perfect sense for companies to explore alternative revenue streams.
In the past the companies that had policies of not shooting Black or Interracial did not have to because the market was not the way it is in present day adult.
I have seen the progression.
The almighty dollar is a powerful thing. It makes people do things that they would not "normally" do.
I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch. 3243 Posts 5/06
Posted - Sep 3 2006 : 2:40PM
I was under the silly notion that freedom of choice meant just that, every individual has the right to choose who they will or will not have sex with. Appartently I am wrong and that decision lies in the hands of people that have no knowledge of what or who turns me on or off but seems to think that who they think certain individuals should have sex with takes priority over who the individuals in question want to have sex with.
Just to cut off a certain type of reply at the pass, yes I am white and in my life I have had more sex with black women than with white women so save any comments about the confederate flag, the KKK, or similar horseshit. I don't care who fucks who. It's the self-righteous "the performers need to fuck who I want them to fuck" attitude that aggrevates me.
I am late to this topic but, I will only say this about the subject of Vivid and its polices in the past and the way they marketed its girls and movies.
They were great in the mid 80s to late 90s with the way they took a Ginger Lynn, Christy, etc and made them up and put out product but it became a bore if you think about it in the 2000s. They take a Lacie Hart and doll her up and she looks plastic now after seeing her in her Vivid titles. Then, they promoted the women and if you ever heard them talk in any interview while on contract that, being with Vivid upped the ante' for them in prestige and that the other girls doing IR were "lower class" or something.
Well, over the years this policy and the boring titles they produced and the Paul Thomas epics have caught up with Vivid. The girls attitute with doing a Brother is now seen as downright silly today, if you look at the market. Now can a gonzo girl doing all kinds of crap catch up with her yes, but there has to be a line....that the product is what moves the market and being creative sells.
Vivid is only doing this because there is a slowdown, or a dollar to make. They have for over twenty years been very segragated, even with Heather Hunter.
Because it is that simple. The definition of race prejudice is not ambiguous: discrimination based on race.
If you say "I will not have sex with XYZ race" that is racism. There really are no two ways about it. Now you can argue the marketing and financial motives of of the racist decision. Most people seem to agree that females who refuse to do Black men do so because they believe it will harm their income potential. But that does not mean that discriminating based on race for profit is any less racist than discriminating based on race out of fear or hatred.
the unknown pervert wrote:I personallyy would never assume your a bigot or member of the KKK for your views. Many people agree with your views, I'm just not one of them. Truthfully, I could care less if any certain performer won't work with a another performer solely based on race. It is their body, and thus their choice. While I believe they have that right and can make that distinction, companies, in my view, can not. Discrimination based on race is against the law in the United States. Porno companies shouldn't be allowed a special or free pass since no other company is ever afforded one. Why should they be allowed to condone, encourage, or look-the-other-way when it happens?
That sort of thing happens all the time in the entertainment industry if you're talking about casting decisions.
This might be turnable on it's head, even. WCP for example is a niche company with a particular market. Do they hire white guys? I'm not sure, but their male talent seems to be predominantly black. Is that racism, or a hiring practice based simply on their niche and target market? I'd go for the latter.
The truth is that WCP did hire white guys. Michael Stephano and Brandon Iron were contract directors there. I shot two "all white porductions" as well and WCP would hire white male talent on a regular basis. The fact of the matter is that distributors would not buy this type of product in large enough numbers to be worth the expense. They would say that WCP was a company that produced Black and Interracial and therefore would only buy Black and Interracial product in great enough numbers to be profitable. WCP would be told if they want white they can buy form other companies.
This is a real strange situation, especially since so called "white" companies can create hardcore imprints that produce Black/Interracial content, sell it and make a profit, ie. Zero Tolerance/ Black Ice, New Sensations/Vengennce, Redlight/ Candy Shop
Precisely...I don't think any one company can be all things to all people. There are simply too many niches and sub-niches to cover. Some companies try (like Red Light District), but I believe they will always inevitably end up spreading themselves too thin.
I've not seen any white male performers in any of Justin Slayer's flicks for EA (although I haven't seen all of them), but I'm not about to yell 'racist!'. That's because Justin is producing films aimed at the segment of the market that likes to see black guys with white/asian/latin/etc. chicks...more power to him.
Similarly, if Steve Hirsch never hired a black stud for Vivid, I wouldn't be yelling 'racist!' either...white guys fucking white girls is also a fairly profitable niche to focus on.
As for performers who don't do IR, I've already made my feelings clear. Some girls are admittedly on the record saying they won't do it...whatever. Others, I suspect, are probably holding back on IR as a potential ace-in-the-hole milestone ('Starlet X in her first ever B/G scene/Anal scene/IR scene!'). Any new girl who does everything right out the gate is going to be busy, but when the work starts to tail off, where does she go from there? What's left to re-invigorate her career...double anal!?
Take a look at Jenna 'I'm such a racist I'm dating a Mexican' Jameson. No IR as yet, no anal and thus no DP either. She's still got three aces up her sleeve which she can play any time she feels like it. Vivid have a number of girls in the same position on their roster (previously no anal or IR)...I guess they just feel that with market conditions as they are, now's the time to start playing a few of those cards.
First off, having sex with someone who is another race does not abosolve one of racism. White supremacists have been raping Black women since the dawn of colonialism. That's not a personal attack on you, just a little FYI about making that argument.
I am all for personal choice. In America everyone has the 1st Amendment right to be as racist as they want. But that also means that their critics have the same right to chastize them for it. That is the crux of the issue. If a female chooses the path of race discrimination, that is absolutely her choice. It's her body. But as a public entity, she is then subject to the opinion of porn fans.
If you are a porn star your income is generated by porn fans. If you don't want your "preferences" questioned, take your ass back to community college and get a real job.
But all this is acedemic. We know that these choices are about finances, and white male arm twisting. Not the personal prefences of the females themselves. That's why the Taylor Rains of the world (who swear they have a white men only preference) keep getting caught screwing Black men when they're off the clock.
