Edited by - M.B. on 4/1/2004 11:23:03 PM

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Sincerely I would also feel bad for the girl watching something like you described. Porn is supposed to be a fun thing, not something just done for the sake of it. If someone's not enjoying it in the movie, I don't think someone watching would either.

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I have seen somewhat of angry reaction in this specific series as the scenes end, Violation of kate Frost, Violation of Marylin Star are two that I remember.

It's one thing for girls to act uncomfortable during a scene because of its nature, in this case rape, but to actually film the girls misery during a scene is totally not erotic, at least not to me.

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I try so hard to keep an open mind but AAAAARGH!

I'm just getting over my first look at that damned "foot on the head" thread and now this.

Sex should be FRIENDLY fer gossake!

I apologise for the incoherent rant, but this stuff really gets to me.

Renee, I congratulate you on being able to keep your cool and argue sensibly in these two threads. Thank you for being you.

licker

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Any director/series that does this I would completely avoid.

For example, after being duped into buying one volume of "Service Animals", I was so turned off by the bad treatment of the girls (whether real or not) that I completely avoided anything by Joey Silvera.

I also hate it when guys hold a girl's head to turn a good blow job into a stupid "skull fuck"!

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When they realized Crystal was screaming for real..they stopped. Kinda like when they puke in fear factor. Real but not real.

What's strange to me is how because it's a lesbian flick they can get away with so much??

Go figure

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Gagging is fine with me. Slapping doesn't really bother me either. I hate spitting if the man is doing it. I guess everybody has their turn-offs though..

-Sane today, tommorrow..who knows!!

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I'm just glad she didn't retire after that scene eventhough it would not have surprised me.

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Keep cool???

"from angel to devil in less than a fingersnip!"

->

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in europe this could be done without the talent herself
forcing a negotiation, to protect them from threats,
and sometimes from themselfs.
in case of 'violation' she wouldn't even need to work anymore
considering the hughe amounts of smart-money.

even the biggest egos jump in circles in the face of prosecution!

"Take out the garbage and the trash, (or you don’t get no spending cash)…”

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There seems to be a pattern of directors taking footage showing Crystal Ray in pain or distress, and using it like it's entertainment - though perhaps in their estimation, that's what it is. Chico Wang at Anabolic decided to use footage of this actress in pain during a DAP, when a fan simply requested him to. Dave Lugar at RLD used footage of her crying and leaving a set during a DP in one of his films (it's discussed about midway through this thread). Then there's the footage on Meatholes.com, that someone referred to previously, where Crystal is crying as she's being verbally abused.

This last one I watched a one minute clip of her and Brandon Iron. For anyone who thinks her tears are just acting, here's what I think. Either Crystal is an Oscar-Caliber actress like Meryl Streep or Gwyneth Paltrow, who can cry at will and convincingly, or Crystal is an porn actress who is somewhat sensitive and her tears are real. I do believe it is the latter case.

At any rate, when directors decide to use this kind of footage, obviously they are trying to appeal to certain kinds of fans, who like seeing women in distress. Hell, maybe the directors even like it, and don't see anything the least bit wrong with it. As long as no one complains, and people buy their movies or join their websites, what do they care, they got what they want - the porn fans' money.

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-T.C.

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Personally, I love intensity, always have, but not sorrow . Not rape, abuse, and misery. I've had enough weepy moments of my own lately. Other folks, hell, even some I know , get off on abuse. Bullies grow up and buy porn, too. Some even make their own.

Whether the "victims" are willing or not, is that what's at issue here? Because I don't believe anybody who's a real sadist is going to change their ways because of a few well-worded posts.

As for the "victims" themselves, some people crave punishment. Do they deserve it? Who knows? Why do you think we humans created Hell? We have this instinctive need to be punished for our wrongs and shortcomings (some more than others).

Damn sure doesn't mean we need it in 99% of what's coming out! -- but until somebody forges forward into that elusive middle ground between total abuse and total boredom (which some would argue are becoming one and the same), there seems to be no limit to the supply and apparently, the demand.

I'm not buying jack shit lately, except to help skronker raise money. The only place I'm getting, or seeing, the sex I like best is at home. That makes me sad; well, no, not really, that makes me want to go home.

If Crystal keeps showing up at these shoots, regardless of how uncomfortable it makes you feel to watch it, that's her right. If it's the directors getting out of hand -- we'll keep letting them know, but some are obviously pretty unrepentant about it. So my biggest hope is that the girls talk to each other and the fans here about who they're shooting for, and make more informed decisions. After that, it's folks taking responsibility for their own actions, and that, we seem to agree in Polls, is a good thing .

Empathy and compassion are great, but we can't all protect each other from making our own mistakes, that's how we learn and grow. Or get totally fucked up - then the rest of us look at that and go "WHOA!! Remind me not to do THAT!" Maybe Crystal's providing a good example for other people getting into the biz how not to make money, in which case she's providing a service. And no one's forcing anyone to watch.

You live and learn, or you don't live long.
--Lazarus Long

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seems like weve got a lot of jazz musicians in here.

seems like weve got a lot of jazz musicians in here.

seems like weve got a lot of jazz musicians in here.

seems like we've got a lot of jazz musicians in here.

"i just want to be a drummer!"

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Sex is sometimes the most emotionally charged when it's conveyed in its scariest imagery. That was the intention of the Ashley Blue scene, and to certain extent, the same holds true for PAYBACK: The Evolution of a Gangbang , being released in a few weeks. Done in a deliberately theatrical and intentional way, I believe the emotion of regret can actually add incredible artistic integrity and valuable cinematic energy to a project, when delivered effectively.

However...seeing a porn star "lose it" in a behind the scenes fashion, when everyone yells "cut" and "back off", and it's obvious that something traumatic and unexpected has happened, does absolutely nothing for the project nor the industry itself. We have a hard enough time defending what we do (especially what I do!) to have bullshit like this making it to the final edit, let alone the fucking preview. It benefits no one except the greed mongers at the top of the material's distribution chain. I strongly defend the distributor's right to put whatever the fuck he wants in his movies, but I also hope that the real power players disdain such actions. Those real power players being:

* The distributors: Who are perhaps the most responsible for deciding the final integrity of what ends up on the marketplace. They could change the face of porn faster than any other entity in the business, raising the bar on everyone, and put a lot of Porn Valley shit-pushers under (if they ever figured out that they could make more money if there were fewer companies, with better product).
* The consumers: Who have the last great power that we as American's can exercise with military precision...BUYING POWER !!! The consumer can bankrupt your company without you realizing it until it's too late. They can simply exercise their freedom of choice and refuse to buy such material, which will then push back all the way to the manufacturer's warehouse again. By the time the production company realizes they have shelves full of shit nobody is buying, they still have at least 4 to 6 more releases of equal depravity to put out before they can turn things around...and by then it may be too little, too late.

Finally...

* The responsibility of the community of Porn Valley Production Peers: Who's main obligation should be to constantly elevate the integrity of what is being done...not to drive it into cheaper, more ruthless directions for the sake of the quick buck, the shock factor, or at the expense of someone's unfortunate situation. I find that most of these people and producers are quite emotionally bankrupt themselves, and therefore need to cash-in on someone else's tears, fears, and fucked up situations. (Shame on you...should the tables ever be turned.) It's the responsibility of the rest of the industry's producers to refuse to wade in waters contaminated with similar garbage.

- 2 cents from someone worth 1 cent...
guy capo

Edited by - guy capo on 4/2/2004 4:11:17 PM

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thanks. You are a drummer!

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How does this differ from James Cameron's choice?

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The only time I have ever seen such a thing was in a Behind the Scenes tape that featured a favorite starlet of mine. After some intense anal sex in a taxing piledriver position, all filmed in an extremely hot old air hanger/studio, the camera zooms in on her seemingly in the hopes of getting a cool quote while they are taking a break. And she just looks up and asks him "not to film this" and you can hear the director from across the set yelling at the cameraman to "leave her the fuck alone."

I never fully understood what exactly was going on. As far as I can tell, the woman was just genuinely exhausted and wanted to take a break and be by herself for a little bit. Everyone, including the male performer, was extremely respectful of that except for the ignorant cameraman.

That all being said, I have never seen anything like what is described earlier about Crystal Ray. These performers have their breaking points. Crystal has obviously reached her's several times and unfortunately for her cameras seemed to be taping it each time. Despite the apparent niche audience who enjoy seeing such cinema verite, one would think that producers and directors would have respect for the actual performer to leave such footage on the cutting room floor. I suppose though that the ever evolving race to out-nasty the other guy supercedes any respect for the actual female performer here.

JM Productions have long, and increasingly so since the fall of Extreme Associates, have had the niche of the pseudo women-hating company. At their official website, they post pictures of casting couch girls with captions like, "She's Korean so she doesn't bathe as much as a Japanese girl" or "Look at her: she's dead inside" (Direct Quotes). This is their company's persona. If they really think this or feel this way about female porn stars does not seem to matter. It is the public face they put forth. And it is nice that when Crystal broke down that they called off the action. They gave her that respect and sensitivty, but then it ends up in the actual scene and completely undermindes that.

How many other girls are there like Crystal Ray? These girls are just getting demolished in the increasingly rough sex as king gonzo. Tons of them seem to love it which is great. But I never once thought Crystal was being pushed too far in all of the senes I saw her in. It makes me worry about some other girls.

Kelly

Edited by - tscfan317 on 4/3/2004 12:24:15 AM

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I have no clue why Crystal signs up for such scenes. Only she can answer that.

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JRV:

"Max Hardcore still owns that genre."

Good point.

Kelly

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I'd like to develop a small list of those "pseuda-misogynists" so I can avoid them all.

They're definitely not my taste.

So far, I have:
1. Max Hardcore
2. Khan Tusion
3. Joey Silvera
4. Some Extreme Associates directors (if they're still in business)

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I imagine there have been many instances of Hollywood actors/actresses having difficulties during filming. There were rumors of Leonardo di Caprio showing up late for scenes in Scorsese's The Gangs of New York. Should that be on the DVD, footage of him walking on to the set later than everyone else?

I agree with the previous post, that it's decent when the director stops filming a scene because a porn actress needs a break, but then to include this in the DVD extras just defeats the whole purpose. How about filming some actor who's having wood problems, and showing him having to pop another Viagra, and then everyone standing around while they wait for the drug to take effect? Don't we all want to see that, wouldn't that be entertaining?

Back to James Cameron - He did some of the Terminator films with Arnold Schwartzenegger, right? Maybe there's footage of now Governor Schwartzenegger groping a woman, or joking about it. I want to see this! Who cares about the Governor's privacy!

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Mastrantonio flaked on a sound-stage shoot not at the water tank so the cost wasn’t as bad as it could have been, but I assume it cost a lot of people money if Cameron wasn’t ready to shoot another scene without her (otherwise he has little choice but to send the crew home, and the hourly crew probably don’t get paid). When you can’t handle a scene you knew about months in advance and cost people mainstream-Hollywood production money and schedule, yet you’re drawing star’s paycheck, they probably remember it.

I though this was relevant because it seems an almost exact parallel of the Crystal Ray case.

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"jrv wrote: Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio freaked out and walked off the set of The Abyss while filming a pretty physical scene with Ed Harris. James Cameron included this in his DVD extras , and a picture of the shoot log for the day stating she had walked off the set (with everyone on the clock)."

You said this was in the DVD extras (released in 2002), not on a laser disc released in 1990, one year after the original theatrical release. I still stick to my opinion, that even to do this one year later is unprofessional. Then again, Cameron is not a director exactly known for his subtlety in film making. Thankfully, other directors don't follow his lead.

For anyone wondering why would someone like Crystal Ray sign up for this JM production, perhaps it's because a veteran actress like herself (and she's only been performing for a year and a half) can have trouble getting other decent work with more mainstream gonzo companies. In this thread about an RLD film, one of their directors Jake Malone recently asked the following question:

"I'm just wondering; would it bother you (fans) to see two veterans like, say, Crystal Ray or Monica Sweetheart in a Red Light title or do you feel they have been "shot out". We shot both of them 18 months ago but Vince recently shot Crystal again and she looked great, had put on a few pounds and had grown an ASS! He said she was great in the scene. When you rent a Red Light title do you expect to see only new girls?"

Everyone answered back that they don't mind seeing a good performer like Crystal more than once in RLD films, not in the least. But if a company like RLD, which puts out about 100 titles a year, and has about 5 actresses per title, and will only shoot them once or twice, that means they go through somewhere like 300-500 actresses a year. But if studio directors, and I'm sure that RLD's are not the only ones who are like this, if they don't want to hire actresses who they consider "shot out" what sort of choices does such an actress really have?

Edited by - Renee on 4/4/2004 2:19:22 PM

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"Life On The Set" sections, shot after filming was complete with substantial director's dialog, was not uncommon on LD. That sort of thing was actually quite popular and sought-after, sold in special editions at a premium. Fluff "Happy! Happy! Joy! Joy!" pieces pretending it was just one big happy shoot would never have sold when it was well known one or more actors/actresses caused trouble. Incidentally, I think this wasn’t all one sided; I think Cameron included pictures of “The Abuse” and “Can’t Scare Me” T-shirts. He definitely pointed out that the revival scene was hard to perform. But hey, she wasn’t getting paid crew’s hourly rate either.

In Crystal’s case I haven’t seen the scene. I probably wouldn’t like it if she didn’t appear to be into it. One-sided rough scenes do nothing for me.

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1) A good producer always has another scene in the "on-deck circle" just incase something happens that makes shooting the scheduled scene impossible.

2) Don't worry about the hourly crew, they got paid. And they don't get paid by the hour, they get paid by the day. That "We're done, you can all go home (but you're not getting paid)" shit might work somewhere else, but not on a Hollywood set. You've bought people's time, and you pay for people's time. If the producer is too fucked up, disorganized, or unlucky to use it properly, that's his problem.

-T.C.

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She started breaking down almost immediately. It was odd because at one point, Brandon asked her to give him her best shot. Here's a clip.

CLICK HERE FOR VIDEO

Shit happens on sets. In this particular case, I think it was more of a situation where Crystal really needed the money and agreed to do something she wasn't prepared for. Crystal's actually came back to do MidnightProwl so it wasn't as if she was traumatized. And she drinks urine too!

WW

mod note: removed image that didn't comply with Forum Etiquette guidelines.

Edited by - hardware on 4/5/2004 2:24:09 PM

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Besides, just thinking about it gave me wood.

I like reading all of the different opinions here, because I am pretty conflicted about my desire to see porn like this.

I'm not much of a urine fan, but I do really enjoy Service Animals.

That said, the first time I saw SA was Taylor Rain in SA 13. I was actually repulsed at first, and concerned for her. But at the same time I was very turned on. Does that make me a sick fucking pervert jackass? Maybe, but I would never harm anyone. SA is now one of my favorite series.

And, I don't think I'm alone.

One thing that helps me sleep at night is that no one must be in a rough sex movie. If Crystal Ray is too washed up to get easier or acceptable work because it won't sell, then he has the choice to stay or go. Everyone has those types of choices.

I personally love her scenes, and would buy lighter stuff with her in it.

Damn, I said I wan't going to pontificate. forgive me, again.

Edited by - valjean4876 on 4/4/2004 11:42:34 PM

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There was a thread here on this message board about a year ago concerning that Taylor Rain scene, and I think that others had reactions similar to yours. You can do a search for "Service Animals 13" and find the thread.

Chico, are you saying that what we see in the Crystal Ray /meatholes scene isn't acting, it's for real? Because a lot of time, people will post that crying like that is just acting, that nothing awful really happened. I guess you would know, you were there.

I see you provided a link to the Looney Tunes version of the last 30 sec. of that scene with Crystal, complete with music and sound effects. But a couple of months ago, someone here on ADT posted a link to some Internet site that had about a minute from what happened earlier, and it didn't look so pretty.

Edited by - Renee on 4/5/2004 12:02:30 AM

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An example of what does work for me: a while ago a trailer was posted for Ass Cream Pie 4 of a scene with Ashley Blue. At one point she spits on the guy and then says "Get Me Back!".

Spitting aside, the dialog & action paints a picture of a rough-play scene, a physical-play scene between Ashley and the guys, not a one-sided abuse scene. That's good stuff. I just watched the actual scene and unfortunately it’s not balanced like the trailer: it’s one-sided, and Ashley don’t always seem happy (but with Ashley I’m not sure anyone ever really knows).

PS. It’s too bad Johnni Black is gone. I wonder if any of the guys would be brave enough to grab her throat or slap her?

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It's up to me where I put myself in real life just like it's the actresses choices which films they make.

That being said, as a survivor of multiple rapes, if the girls didn't sign up for something that happens in the film or didn't know it was coming and they're forced into it then the cops need to be involved.

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In this case Crystal wasn't forced into it but rather got upset during the scene. It does seem strange that from the descriptions it was the evil male JM crew that ordered action stopped when Crystal got upset, not the other girls who apparently kept right on at it.

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But I'd still bet on the "leave it in for shock factor" odds...

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when the wax paper is removed she doesnt scream out in pain, jump, or anything.

its just an act. She never yelled "stop", or "no"

Edited by - stupid ass on 4/5/2004 10:32:18 PM

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